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bonding method debate - Part 2 #706497
01/05/09 04:07 PM
01/05/09 04:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: sugarlope] #706502
01/05/09 04:11 PM
01/05/09 04:11 PM

B
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
B



I absolutely love how this is still going and nobody has gotten nasty enough to get us threatened with rule #4 (Or whatever #. LOL) It even got a Part 2! Thanks Gretchen!

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: sugarlope] #706508
01/05/09 04:23 PM
01/05/09 04:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
I'm going to put my two cents in (for whatever it's worth) - First off - I do believe that crabbing is a natural response for a glider and I don't think it always involves fear. My two were crabbing up a storm in their pouch last night and it was some issue amongst themselves. I also have no problem with a glider crabbing in response to certain stimuli (bumping a cage, etc.) Barking is a fear response too but no one says "don't let your glider bark because it means he's afraid". It's ridiculous - they are allowed to be fearful or certain things - I am, why shouldn't they be?

HOWEVER, If they are lunging and biting at their owners - that is an issue that should be addressed and in my opinion doesn't go hand in hand with crabbing. If a PP pouch helps cure gliders of this behavior then I am all for it and no one on this board should argue it. If you don't like the method - don't use it. I don't understand how it is anymore cruel than dumping your glider in a rescue or selling them on craigslist because "they bite". Bourbon has been using this method for years and apparently it works or she wouldn't continue to use it.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: Gossamer] #706520
01/05/09 04:41 PM
01/05/09 04:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict
MatchMakerMagic  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
It is easy to take things personal when a discussion is started on another board, brought over to here with the knowledge it will start [censored], then to take it yet to another board, with the intent to create even more months after a single response was made, a comment wasn't made then, an excerpt taken from a post or 2 was removed, and the whole "debate" was based on that.

This thread was started because it was requested HERE in another thread that it be taken to a thread of its own. If there is other topics on other boards discussing the same thing, then it is what it is. There will be talk of the things concerning gliders whether that be diets, bonding, anything. Many of the members are the same on many boards and yes, they do talk about many of the same issues. What is trying to be discussed here is not personal of nature, but of the different types of bonding techniques that many folks have an opinion on (good or bad). And rightfully so, everyone should be allowed to have their own opinions.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
but what wasn't said or seen was only to make others think that the cages are "stripped of everything"

The comments that were made by the ones who “felt bad” for the gliders who were so upset. The owners who were sad they had to take away the gliders things, “even down to their wheel”. Those were the comments for me that gave that impression. But no one claimed this method did not return the items at some point. I even asked for clarification so I understood better since I have not had a reason to try the PP pouch method. It is a part of the program, and it is what it is...

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
comments were made.. not to debate but to bash the pouches and the technique. and it continues,

I re-read this ENTIRE thread (part 1) and did not see ANY bashing of the pouch. Only folks stating disagreement with the method (removing enrichment, etc). And that’s okay. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. smile

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
to continue to use words like harmful, cruel etc.. regarding this technique is bashing, because none of those words have been backed up,

I must have missed those words when I re-read the entire thread. I didn’t see it. But if they were expressed Im sure it was in a “personal opinion” kind of way. I didn’t see any chastising over and over again, or any bashing. I hope we all can have a respectful conversation/debate without making things too personal – because then it does no good at all.


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Robin asked for help, she hasn't received it from the people she asked for it from.

I know I’ve missed quite a bit as I’ve only been checking in every once in a while, but if Robin asked for help, maybe the “debate” thread wasn’t the best place to do it? Perhaps a new thread explaining all the background and current situation would get more attention rather than get lost in the middle of a debate? Robin I’d really like you and your babies to get the help you need!

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
it still in all these pages haven't "proven that these gliders on the thread you extrapolated from, is worse than what they started, in fact on the contrary..

I don’t think anyone has said gliders who’ve been through the PP pouch program are worse off then they started? If they did I sure missed that one too. I think everyone has said more than once in all these pages that there are several methods that work, INCLUDING the PP pouch program. But that there ARE others that work as well. That I think is the point.


Originally Posted By: Bourbon
because of this thread now, I will be helping more people, people with gliders not as bad, as robins, or erins, or deannas, but young gliders, new owners, and others that feel they need help, which technique I use is strictly up to me, because you know what?

I do have the experience in many methods, I am no stranger, I know glider behavior, and yes believe it or not, I even know the difference between a scared new glider/owner and a vicious pit bull biter.

This has just reinstated that drive deep down inside of me, that Baybe instilled into me years ago.

I do hope that you would continue to always help gliders and their people in need. It’s a great help to the community and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it many times again – I fully believe education is key. We are all here for the gliders, and I hope we all continue to be. smile

**Edited because something crazy happened when I first posed, got all kinds of links. I think its fixed now. Weird.**

Last edited by MatchMakerMagic; 01/05/09 05:46 PM. Reason: something crazy happened to my post!

Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: ] #706578
01/05/09 05:36 PM
01/05/09 05:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
And you got to be the first to post in part 2! lol


I, and I believe at least one other person, did share a story of what worked for us after it was asked. Several people have posted as to why they feel the way they do about bonding. Those who endorse the pp pouch method have voiced their feelings as have those who don't endorse it. Both "sides" have said the others' views were "cruel". It's a matter of opinion. Every single one of us, regardless of how new or old we are, is entitled to have their opinion. My experiences are different from others. Just because I haven't been online for many years doesn't lessen the worthiness of my opinon. We all draw from our own life experiences and each of those experiences deserves respect. I have said a few times in this post that I don't chase gliders or force them into a closed pouch, that I move slowly and don't bring my hand down on top of them. Those are some basics that I pretty much always do/don't do. Other than that, it depends on the glider.

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #707027
01/06/09 01:39 AM
01/06/09 01:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
OT - sorry...Has anyone elses threads showing the p p p (Pouch Protective Pouch) turned into a link for Perfect Pocket Pets? Bummer! roflmao


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: Suggiegramma] #707043
01/06/09 02:00 AM
01/06/09 02:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
Sorry about that! Eddie has fixed the link.

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: LSardou] #707071
01/06/09 02:53 AM
01/06/09 02:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Thanks Linda, (and Eddie)!


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: Suggiegramma] #707580
01/06/09 05:51 PM
01/06/09 05:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Just rereading and saw the question of if gliders experience emotions. They said they had not witnessed a glider mourn the loss of another (be very happy you haven't..it's awful to watch) or felt it was joy that brought them to greet us when we enter the room. Pavlov's dog was mentioned. That experiment's goal was to elicit a physical response from a substituted stimulus. He used noise as a substitute for food to cause salivation. I can see that relating that experiment's results to the gliders coming to the front of the cage when they see their "feeder", but I feel that they do experience emotion upon seeing us. I have seen gliders who were separated due to injury cry for the other. I've seen gliders show what I feel is happiness when they see each other. I am fostering one pair who are so in love w/each other that they cuddle and "hug" even after one was playing in another part of the glider room for a bit. It's amazing to watch. I believe that they do experience emotions.

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #707596
01/06/09 06:23 PM
01/06/09 06:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
I agree, they are exceptionally emotional and highly sensitive to everything and everyone around them.
I have witnessed through my gliders the joy, comfort, care, and concern they express towards each other.


Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: LSardou] #707700
01/06/09 09:21 PM
01/06/09 09:21 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: LSardou
I agree, they are exceptionally emotional and highly sensitive to everything and everyone around them.
I have witnessed through my gliders the joy, comfort, care, and concern they express towards each other.



You are right Linda, gliders are highly sensitive and show all kinds of emotions. The first emotion they display to us is fear, the fear of the new enviroment, new people and smells. Some are more fearful than others, and it is through reassurance that we start to break through that fear.

I find that is the first step towards gaining the trust of these little ones.

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: ] #707776
01/06/09 10:28 PM
01/06/09 10:28 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Well...I have a lot of thoughts running through my head right now. So, I'm going to type slow and hope I say things the way I mean them to be heard.

First, I HAVE used the Pouch Protective Pouch, very sucessfully. It was with a glider that had extreme anxiety issues. I couldn't clean the room he was in, it was that bad. He was a rescue and only supposed to be at my house as a stop on his way somewhere else. I don't know where he was supposed to go, but I refused to let them leave. B did work with me and we argued a LOT! LOL But, the techniques worked, and I would use it again, if I need to.

Second, in my opinion, this is an extreme tactic, and it isn't for normal behavior issues. But, no bonding technique is for every issue. There are probably as many techniques as there are problems.

Third, this is a debate. I haven't seen anyone attacking this method, just showing why they don't like it. There are other techniqes out there that I wouldn't use. Take the bite? Not on your life.

My philosophy is consistancy. Whatever technique you use, it must be consistant. Every time I touch Coopers cage, he crabs. I talk to him until he stops. Every time.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: bonding method debate - Part 2 [Re: USMom] #707783
01/06/09 10:31 PM
01/06/09 10:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Consistency is a good point, Shawna. You need to be something your glider can rely on. Doing radically different things from day to day can slow down the process.


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