Ok, so here is my little one's story. Many many know how long I waited to finally have little joey's running around here (approx. 7 yrs.) Prada and Armani granted me that wish! They gave me two very sweet baby leu girls. Now, I know they were girls because I once sexed a joey wrong for a friend whose gliders were staying with me, , so I checked MANY times with my own! Others that visited me of course had to check too, knowing the story. Both girls.
Well, about 4mos. later I noticed a bald spot on Alia's head. Truth is...I thought her daddy was teaching her bad habits because the two are inseperable during playtime. I even told friends this on the phone. NOT ONCE did it dawn on any of us she might be a boy?!? Well, when Cami and her brother came OOP, I was giving out treats to the family, and what do I see? Alia had a penis. STILL didn't dawn on me really...I just figured it was a body part. Next day, during treat time, I see it again. SAY WHAT?!? Yes, it was still there and was still a penis. So I get Alia out and do a real good body part check, and she also has a pouch. Not a full pouch at this point in time, but pouch nonetheless. I call him more boy, because he looks like a boy with his bald spot and of course, his other body part.
Pics below.
He is sooooooooooo soooooooooooo sooooooooooooo sweet, and a very special guy.
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
Huh. Are you going to get him neutered? Does he / she have female organs inside? Have there been any other gliders like this? Very interesting...gorgeous color!
Sabrina
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: reeny]
#748362 03/11/0911:15 PM03/11/0911:15 PM
I am not going to get him neutered. The procedure is too invasive for me and is really not necessary. Chances are very high he is sterile, and if not, he probably couldn't produce anyway (although we know almost anything IS possible.) I do plan to have a necropsy on Deuce when that day comes so we can learn as much as possible, but until then, he's just one special boy.
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
Ok, so no testicals? I don't think I see any........ and this would explain how 'she' was first sexed as a girl. But so wouldn't this mean that he couldn't get any of the girls pregnant? Guess he sure does have something in there giving him a sex drive though. With all the hanky panky play you were talking about. And ya, I guess there would have to be male hormones for the bald spots/scent glands. Still curious about what's inside...........
I am not going to get him neutered. The procedure is too invasive for me and is really not necessary. Chances are very high he is sterile, and if not, he probably couldn't produce anyway (although we know almost anything IS possible.) I do plan to have a necropsy on Deuce when that day comes so we can learn as much as possible, but until then, he's just one special boy.
Karin
Very interesting and a great picture! There wouldn't be any way to neuter him/her if you wanted to since there's no pom/testicles, right?
Unless there are testicles inside? This is unknown. I will be contacting my vet, Dr. Ness, who has researched gliders for many years and consult with him. But I highly doubt I would ever choose to have any surgery just to find out, ya know what I mean?
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
Ok... I've been thinking about him Karin and tell me if this is right...
Now I think the way to tell if he's a boy or girl is for him to mate... Because if he can produce, as in act as a boy then he'd be a boy and if he can't produce that would mean he's a girl or sterile. He's sterile because he's a leu, correct? If he mates as a girl and has babies IP then he'd be a girl, correct?
Hopefully that made sense. Because I DO believe that hermaphrodite humans can produce if they are a male, and get pregant if they are a female. Or am I wrong on that? I don't know much about them... but I'd love to learn. Isn't it like 1 in 5 humans are hermaphrodites? I believe that it's common... because when I read about it I was like whoa... didn't think it was that common.
Sorry for the rant Karin! It's just so amazing!
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: Karin]
#748390 03/11/0911:43 PM03/11/0911:43 PM
Unless there are testicles inside? This is unknown. I will be contacting my vet, Dr. Ness, who has researched gliders for many years and consult with him. But I highly doubt I would ever choose to have any surgery just to find out, ya know what I mean?
Karin
Yeah... I would be too scared to have surgery. Can you tell by x-rays or does it not work like that?
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748400 03/11/0911:53 PM03/11/0911:53 PM
I am not going to let him mate though. Since he is a hermaphrodite, he genetically could reproduce another. Chances of their life span being *normal* are not high, also. Too many unknowns.
Not sure about an x-ray, but I doubt it would show testicles. I really do not know.
Also, if he does have testes inside, would the sperm overcook...so to speak...and be viable? It could happen I suppose, but I just don't think it's likely. He will be house with 2 girls, but in my home I am on top of everything that goes on with the gliders so if he starts aggravating the girls, we may have to just have playtime everynight but seperate cages.
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
You should get the vet to do an x-ray or something. So you can see what's in there. It would be very interesting to find out! He is a very adorable little suggie! I'm sure he is SO spoiled! Keep us updated on him!
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748402 03/11/0911:54 PM03/11/0911:54 PM
Oh... Sorry I didn't know that their life span was shorter. I was just thinking about it and not to actually do it. Was just wondering if the logic is realistic. LOL.
He's cute though.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748418 03/12/0912:07 AM03/12/0912:07 AM
Very interesting! I had never heard of this in gliders before today. The picture is really great. There is no denying...it is there and it is in fact a penis. Definitely keep us updated on him!
I am not going to let him mate though. Since he is a hermaphrodite, he genetically could reproduce another. Chances of their life span being *normal* are not high, also. Too many unknowns.
Karin
I feel dumb for asking, but how could he get pregnant? Wouldn't the penis be in the way of impregnation?
I'm so sorry to hear about the shortened lifespan. I'm sure, however, that precious life will be filled to the max!
Little Deuce is just amazing! What a unique little glider! AND such a sweetie in person!
There isn't really any way to know definitively what this little one has on the inside, besides exploratory surgery. An Xray doesn't really show soft tissue. An ultrasound would give you a rough idea, but you wouldn't be able to tell if the little spheres you saw are ovaries, testicles, or even ovotesties.
Thank you SO MUCH for sharing with us, Karin! I especially appreciate how clearly the picture you took shows Deuce's anatomy.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: Nara]
#748458 03/12/0901:54 AM03/12/0901:54 AM
It would be very unlikely that an xray would show testicals. An ultrasound, mri, or CT scan (are those even possible on a glider?) would. But like was said...why do it if you don't have to? Looks like a very handsome boy to me
~Deanna~ Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee (702)250-5236
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: DeeDancer]
#748463 03/12/0902:32 AM03/12/0902:32 AM
Even though he/she has a penis, the testicles would not create viable sperm unless a pom drops out of nowhere. The only possibility for joeys would be if in fact she has ovaries inside...as well as uterus. The penii maybe just be an added decoration :-)
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748480 03/12/0907:52 AM03/12/0907:52 AM
Was thinking.... Is it possible the 'pouch' is actually inverted testies? Like nothing inside them-and they're tucked close to the body, appearing like a pouch? Just wondering out loud.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748496 03/12/0909:07 AM03/12/0909:07 AM
thank you for sharing your baby and he is very special no matter what
Debra Two sons in the U.S. Army Slaves to: Mikki, Loki & Thor dogs: Morgan & Isabella Bunnies Bob & TMan RIP Wellington, Minnie & Dazzle bunny, Willow July 6 2013, Squirtle 7-24-09, Maggie May 12-14-10
I don't know how his life span could be affected unless he has cryptorchidism. In that case, testicular cancer is very high and could be fatal. If his testicles are still in his abdomen they would be too warm to produce viable sperm.
An x-ray wouldn't show soft tissue but an ultrasound would.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748514 03/12/0910:06 AM03/12/0910:06 AM
Wow, that is the most interesting thing I have heard/seen in a while. I'm going to do some research on the subject... It will give me something to do while I'm bored at work. BTW, s/he is a total cutie!
Kim
You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses. -Ziggy
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: KimeyDiann]
#748525 03/12/0910:47 AM03/12/0910:47 AM
Sorry...I call the penii since it is forked so that makes two on the end. And and I also say uterii since they have more than one. And yes.. since they have a separated vagina as well as a divided uterus (please correct me if I am wrong). So why couldn't this glider have the uterii as well as ovaries and just that forked penis.... as an added extra? I guess unless an utrasound is done...(if they do this with gliders) would show what parts are in there.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748548 03/12/0911:37 AM03/12/0911:37 AM
Thanks. I'll be cleaning coffee off my monitor, and possibly buying a new keyboard after that one.
And thank you for his adorable face! He is just SO handsome ... and he has that "still a baby" look that Dylan has! I love it! Kiss his smushy face for me!
Alden "Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker
Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs; and very many great gliders!
(plus the 2 skin kids) valkyriegliders.com
Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ValkyrieMome]
#748556 03/12/0911:47 AM03/12/0911:47 AM
I feel stupid now! I meant to say ultrasound! LoL! But your right. I didn't think about the anesthesia part. That probably wouldn't be a good idea unless it was medically necessary! I hope he lives a VERY long (and spoiled) life! You have one special suggie!
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#748601 03/12/0901:06 PM03/12/0901:06 PM
OK. This is all new and fascinating to me so here I go with another prob dumb question. IF s/he were able to produce viable sperm, would s/he be physically able to impregnate him/herself?
I absolutely love that precious little face! How adorable!!!
Testicles do tend to show up on xrays- atleast when on the outside of the body.I'm sure they would show up on the inside as well, just need a vet who knows what their looking at. I'd suspect they would look like a tumor mass or appear to look like a blockage.
In this pict- you can clearly see Zero's pom on the xray.
Karin, you waited so long for joeys, you were just entitled to a very "special" joey!
Ok, here's my theory. In humans, twin embryos can "fuse" together in the extremely early stages. This can cause hermaphradites and can also allow one person to have two sets of DNA, depending on what part of the body the tissue is taken from. Because the one human is actually it's own twin also. If this "fusing" happens a bit later, conjoined twins are formed. Since no one has ever considered doing any studies on gliders of this nature, I tend to think the same could happen with gliders as does with humans.
My Spryte was also a hermaphradite. One of my vets wasn't surprised at all and said hermaphradites can happen in any species of animal. The other vet was a little surprised but not totally. Mainly because she had never heard of a hermaphradite glider before.
Spryte had one joey that came oop alive but only lived about 15 minutes. When Spryte was about a month along with the joey ip, she broke her leg and had to go through some extensive surgery. She was under anesthsia for about 2 1/2 hours and then the pain meds, the antibiotics etc. We (the vet and I) didn't expect the joey to live at all and expected Spryte to pull her. (her mate was neutered just before Spryte broke her leg if I remember right) Well, Spryte carried the joey about 3 weeks longer than she should have and yet the joey was still severely under developed and weighed only 5.5 grams oop. We (the vet and I) assumed that the joey didn't survive due to Sprytes broken leg because we didn't discover Spryte's penis until several months later. We (the vet and I) have no idea if the joey had genetic issues or if the issues were caused by all Spryte went through when she broke her leg. And boy was THAT a surprise. Spryte was a black beauty.
620-704-9109 Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.
I could have missed the pain But I'd of had to miss the dance
The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: Dancing]
#748767 03/12/0907:38 PM03/12/0907:38 PM
Hopefully, the 3rd known owner will come post to this thread also. Since we only know of 3 at the moment, it would be great to have all the same stories in one place.
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
for some reason this makes me think of those tree frogs that can change thier sex. what i mean is, could this be happening to help keep the species alive if it were to near extinction [not that it ever would, i'm sure].
thank you Karin for sharing this with us; you as well Teresa. i agree with your opionion to just let him be a little glider. having things done "just to see" is never fun. been there, done that.
I know that I tend to relate to horses and other animals I am experienced in a lot. A true hermaphrodite will also have female organs.
In horses a hermaphrodite is a very dangerous animal, because they are so confused by both hormones in their body they don't know what to act like, surgery to remove the testes in the abdominal cavity it the best course of action with a horse.
I understand it is way to invasive with a sugar glider and I don't blame you for not wanting to do the surgery. You will find in time that little Duece will exhibit behavior from both sexes.
I hope he has a long life, and after 12 or 15+ years of good healthy glider life when he does cross the Rainbow bridge it will be interesting to hear what the veterinarians have to say during his necropsy. I am sure the results will be published in some veterinary journels.
Kimberley Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: Feather]
#749455 03/14/0911:29 AM03/14/0911:29 AM
Latest update. I have spoken with Dr. Ness and he has offered to examine him, and take pictures, etc. for the updated glider journal publication he is presenting soon. So, we will know more once I get an appointment (it's a hike to drive there for me.) We plan on getting together next week, so stay tuned : ).
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
I had to check on the hermaphrodites occurring 1 in 5. It's more like 1 in 2,000 or 1 in 3,000 which I find reassuring. Your little one is just so sweet.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#751842 03/19/0905:24 PM03/19/0905:24 PM
How interesting! just be sure to tell him lots and lots that hes a little boy so hes not confused! hehe.
we ran a call once(I'm a medic) on a pregnant hermaphrodite, for whoever was asking. Interesting...very, very interesting person. Its a one in a million shot that a true hermaphrodite can actually reproduce, and its kind of like an ectopic pregnancy, where the fetus is not viable.. He needed to have it surgically removed. Anyways.. enough of my job sneaking into real life!
Gorgeous baby!
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: ]
#751899 03/19/0908:23 PM03/19/0908:23 PM
We are back from the vet visit . Deuce does indeed have a pouch and a penis. Where do we go from here? I suppose down the line we may learn something more from him, but hopefully, that will be many years from now. He was so well behaved at the vet and I was so proud. He's a special one. He will be housed with Tessa and Cami and hopefully that will be accomplished this weekend!
His pouch is a normal pouch, and his penis is normal. I really don't know what else to add.
Dr. Ness did comment this type of thing may be more prevalent with the color breeding though, but time will tell.
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami
For those that might find this tread again, I thought I would add some photos of Spryte's anatomy. Her hiney end is all wet because at the time she had very loose stools due to meds and I had to bathe her numerous times a day. It was during one of these baths that I discovered her penis. Because she did have a joey, I consider her a female. Though it is VERY obvious she had extra parts.
620-704-9109 Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.
I could have missed the pain But I'd of had to miss the dance
The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Deuce, a special boy (hermaphrodite)
[Re: Dancing]
#793393 06/13/0906:09 PM06/13/0906:09 PM
I never replied, but yes his pouch is normal as well as his penis. He does perfom as a male also. He is doing very well...a little on the thin side in my book, but otherwise, super happy!
Karin
Miss Lily and Bud Prada and Armani Tessa, Deuce and Cami