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A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. #76346
01/06/06 03:29 AM
01/06/06 03:29 AM

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It seems there are a lot of glider being sold as cinnamon that turn grey shortly after leaving the breeder or that greys sold as cinnamons will turn cinnamon after reaching puberty. I want to open a discussion as to what exactly qualifies as a cinnamon.

1) How do you distinguish a cinnamon from a scent stained glider?

2) Is a glider that is born grey a cinnamon?

3) Is a glider that is born cinnamon and turns grey a cinnamon?

4) Is there any scientific evidence that would suggest that coat color changes for one phenotype and not another at maturity for any species?

5) How can we identify an adult glider as a cinnamon glider?

6) What steps must be taken by breeders to ensure that the gliders that are being sold as cinnamon are cinnamon?

7) What factors can effect the coat color of a sugar glider and what steps can be used to prevent this.

Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76347
01/06/06 04:11 AM
01/06/06 04:11 AM

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1) How do you distinguish a cinnamon from a scent stained glider?

Using a damp washcloth does not work neither does giving the glider a bath because once the staining is done it cannot be removed so easily. Shaving a small portion of the glider by a vet may or may not work. This method might hold some promise because if the fur were just stained then it would re-grow unstained and be very evident. However there is some speculation that a shaved glider's hair will re-grow a different color than its original coloration, though I am not convinced that this would happen. Experiments can be done to determine this.

2) Is a glider that is born gray a cinnamon?

I do not think that the term cinnamon can be applied to a glider that turns cinnamon and different terms need to be used so that breeders will know exactly what they have and what they can produce. I believe that the term cinnamon should be ONLY used to define a glider that is born cinnamon and remains cinnamon throughout its life. The term chameleon or other term, that does not include the word cinnamon or any other known variation should be used to label the gliders that are born gray but turn cinnamon at puberty. This would solve a lot of the confusion.

3) Is a glider that is born cinnamon and turns gray a cinnamon?

As I mentioned earlier I don’t believe the term cinnamon should be applied to this type of glider. The term true cinnamon or born cinnamon is being used to label a glider that is born a cinnamon and remains a cinnamon throughout its life; however this causes a great deal of confusion because people are still selling a glider that turns cinnamon as a cinnamon. These two different varieties of glider do not show any evidence that they are produced via the same mechanism or gene(s), therefore they should not be given similar designations.

4) Is there any scientific evidence that would suggest that coat color changes for one phenotype and not another at maturity for any species?

To my knowledge there is none. This to me indicates that the gliders that turn cinnamon are not cinnamon but are just normals that are color stained. Indeed this has shown to be the case for the majority of "cinnamon" gliders.

5) How can we identify an adult glider as a cinnamon glider?

Having a vet shave a small area of fur might be the only way. If it re-grows cinnamon then it is a cinnamon, if not then it is only scent stained. I would encourage this only if a vet did this procedure.

6) What steps must be taken by breeders to ensure that the gliders that are being sold as cinnamon are cinnamon?

I believe that breeders who's vets do the above procedure on their cinnamons and give written documentation that they observed the gliders hair re-grow cinnamon should be labeled as a verified cinnamon. I would encourage breeding joeys from these verified cinnamons only.

7) What factors can affect the coat color of a sugar glider and what steps can be used to prevent this.

diet can affect the color of a gliders coat as the lack of necessary minerals or vitamins might cause the coat to look stained.

A glider might have over active scent glands that might cause the glider to look cinnamon.

A glider might be marked by another glider to make the coat look cinnamon.

The husbandry might be lacking so that the cages are so dirty that the glider appears to be cinnamon.

There is some evidence that suggests that nest boxes can cause scent staining due to lack of ventilation.

pouches that are peed in often or are rarely cleaned can cause a glider to look cinnamon.

Medical conditions can cause a gliders fur to change color and cause the glider to look cinnamon.

Malicious breeders can dye the color the their gliders fur to make them look cinnamon. This is possible though I do not know of anyone doing it to make a cinnamon glider.



As you can see there are a lot of factors that can make a glider appear cinnamon but we as breeder need to make sure that we do everything we can to ensure that our gliders are the colors we say they are. This is important not only for our own reputation but also for stabilizing this color variation. With all the variations that are out there we need to make sure when we are breeding a cinnamon to a cinnamon that they are in fact cinnamon or else we could get erroneous data that makes it appear that the heredity or method that the variation is passed is different than it actually is. This could be devastating to our efforts to breed for this variation, or any effort to use cinnamon to unlock new colors.

Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76348
01/06/06 01:13 PM
01/06/06 01:13 PM

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1) How do you distinguish a cinnamon from a scent stained glider?

Well, the best way to determine if a glider is scent stained or not is to put it in with a normal gray, feed it a good diet, and change it's pouches regularly. Then, after 6 months, reasses it's color. The normal gray willgive you a control glider to compair the "cinnamon" to. And it can take up to 6 months for staining to fully fade. A good diet and clean pouches would reduce new staining. Another way to spot staining is to look at the little patch of white behind a gliders ears. Even if the glider isn't a classic color, that patch of hair should still be white. If it's creamy or ruddy, then the glider is stained.

2) Is a glider that is born grey a cinnamon?

I have a cinnamon male that was born cinnamon. I have seen very few gliders that I would consider true cinnamons. One is my Skeeter and his sister, another is Sheila's Hope...

3) Is a glider that is born cinnamon and turns grey a cinnamon?

I think a glider should only be consider a cinnamon if it's always been a cinnamon. I used to buy into the whole gliders colors fading out and coming back at maturity thing, but any more, I'm going to guess that a glider that comes OOP looking cinni and turning gray is just stained.

4) Is there any scientific evidence that would suggest that coat color changes for one phenotype and not another at maturity for any species?

It's actually quite common is some animals to change color at maturity. Take big cats for example. A lot of them have spotted kittens that become solid color as they mature. Also, horses often change colors as they age. Since horses have been breed for so long, by looking at their ancestory and the knowledge that people have over horse colors, a colts adult color can usually be determined at birth.

5) How can we identify an adult glider as a cinnamon glider?

I think that best way to determine color is to compair it to a gray at is also at the same facility, eating the same diet, and living in the same conditions. If all of a breeders gliders are "cinnamon" then something isn't quite right.

6) What steps must be taken by breeders to ensure that the gliders that are being sold as cinnamon are cinnamon?

Buying from a reputable breeder is always a big thing, but it didn't help me every time in the past. Any more, I'm always sure to photo shop photos, becasue lighting can make a big differance on a gliders coloring. I think that until lines are established, it's going to be kind of a guessing game. Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe not.

7) What factors can effect the coat color of a sugar glider and what steps can be used to prevent this.

Well, diet is always a big factor in color. So is housing. I've been researching the effects of red/orange foods on gliders coat coloring. Nest boxes/chin houses, etc are notorious for causing staining. Not just from the wood, but from the moisture that gets trapped with in. I think that using fleece pouches and cleaning them bi-weekly seriously reduces staining. Cleaning the pouches to often can have a reverse effect because males become territiorial and start to excessively mark.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Shaving a small portion of the glider by a vet may or may not work.

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**EDITED**

I personally don't like the idea of shaving gliders. I don't think it's nessicary or safe.

Last edited by Leyna; 01/06/06 03:33 PM.
Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76349
01/06/06 02:01 PM
01/06/06 02:01 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It's actually quite common is some animals to change color at maturity. Take big cats for example. A lot of them have spotted kittens that become solid color as they mature. Also, horses often change colors as they age. Since horses have been breed for so long, by looking at their ancestory and the knowledge that people have over horse colors, a colts adult color can usually be determined at birth.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The question was specific to the effect are there any instances of animals within a species chaning color at sexual maturity and this is key, for one phenotype and not another. I know there are a lot of example of color change at sexual maturity but it is never to my knowledge specific to a phenotype.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Firstly, you would have to knock a glider out to shave it safely. If a vet agrees to knock an animal out just to determine color, I would question their ethics. Secondly, there are going to be people out there that feel that they do not need a vet to shave their glider and will try doing it themselves. Kind of like those people that neuter their own gliders...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Cutting the animals hair via a mechanical shaver does not need to be done while the animal is euthanised. A vet tech can do it. We cannot limit ourselves simply because someone might try to be unethical. Anything can be taken out of context. Determining what is a cinnamon is a very big problem and it needs to be addressed. Merely looking at the fur is not a reliable test. If we cannot determin what exactly a cinnamon is we may never be able to use cinnamon effectly in breeding programs. I do not believe it is unethical to under veternarian approval and supervision to shave a SMALL portion of the gliders fur as a means of determining its phenotype.

Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76350
01/06/06 03:17 PM
01/06/06 03:17 PM

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I think that sexual maturity is more of an age marker that a stimulant. I don't think that puberty is what actually causes the change in color. It's more that the color change and puberty happen at about the same time...

Also, if the glider is on a diet that causes staining at the cellular level, shaving would be totally pointless because with out changing the diet, the fur would come back in the same color, which still wouldn't be the true color.

Have you ever watch the Magic School Bus? There was an episode where Arnold was chowing down on these little seaweed covered carrot sticks and his skin turned orange from of all the orange piment in the carrots. I think that a lot of the "cinnamon" gliders are actually getting their pigmentation from their food, much like Arnold did...

Last edited by Leyna; 01/06/06 03:27 PM.
Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76351
01/07/06 03:24 AM
01/07/06 03:24 AM

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I agree that there is no perfect solution, no one quick fix. However; if we incorperate a good balanced diet along with proper husbandry then Shaving would solve a lot of problems in determining if the animal is scent stained. I also know it would take some time probably 6 month on a good diet to notice any change.

Re: A Discussion on the cinnamon coat color. [Re: ] #76352
01/08/06 10:12 PM
01/08/06 10:12 PM

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Four and a half months ago I bought a *cinnamon* who is now turning grey. She was still cinnamon in pictures a month ago so it takes a good while for the staining to start going away. I'll attach a picture of her I took today.

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