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substituting honey with applesauce- HPW #767057
04/18/09 08:28 PM
04/18/09 08:28 PM

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Denise
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OK I haven't been around in a while and I just read that some people are doing this to the HPW mixture. Can anyone tell me why they are doung this?
Is it ok to make this change? I'm concerned about the ratios and I've been concerned about the amount of honey in the mixture. And how much honey and applesauce is everyone using? I'd love a little info. about this because I wonder if it could be all the honey that makes my lil ones pee stinky. Thanks!

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767066
04/18/09 08:59 PM
04/18/09 08:59 PM
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Ohio
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I've noticed that it seems to be a new trend as well and I'm not sure why. :\

Personally, I trust that whoever planned out the HPW diet in the first place knew what they were doing and a vet was involved in it's making(I don't know all the history of how HPW came to pass, but would love to hear it from someone who does!) and don't change a thing!

Honey isn't there just for "sugar", it's got a ton of nutrients in it. I compared honey to applesauce the other day and I *thought* the labels both looked almost the same til I saw the serving size.... The nutritional analysis for applesauce was for 1/2 cup, but the nutritional analysis for honey was for just 1 TABLESPOON! Sooo...it concerns me that people are substituting the applesauce in place of the honey because the nutritional content is completely different.

Anyways, that's just my $0.02.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Guerita135] #767096
04/18/09 09:33 PM
04/18/09 09:33 PM
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kentucky
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Id like any info on the nutritional value between the 2 if u know where to get it. I am one of th epeople that subs some apple sauce with honey. I love the diet but was very concerned with how much honey is in it. I have wanted to look into what values were exactly in what but dont know how to go about it.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles] #767106
04/18/09 09:48 PM
04/18/09 09:48 PM

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Nurturingnest
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I think Lauren Franco has been working with a vet regarding orplacing some of the applesauce in HPW. They are still using honey but not as much. Maybe Lauren will wander onto this thread and shed some light on the subject

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles] #767112
04/18/09 09:53 PM
04/18/09 09:53 PM

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debyc08
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I also would LOVE some info. on the nutritional values. because my gang NEVER finished their fruits and sometimes their veggies(maybe half) until now. (i have made my first batch with 1/2-honey & 1/2 unsweetened applesauce.) the dishes are EMPTY every morning. and i know i am feeding the same amount each day cause i measure it each night. i wonder if its since there is less sugar or is it that now the HPW is not as fulfilling??


Last edited by debyc08; 04/18/09 11:52 PM.
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767114
04/18/09 09:56 PM
04/18/09 09:56 PM
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kentucky
ssdreamsicles Offline
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My guys were also not eating all there Fruits or rather hardly at all until i started to sub and now they eat more fruits.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767122
04/18/09 10:05 PM
04/18/09 10:05 PM
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Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline
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LOL oh here we go. Ok well for I think a year and a half I've been feeding HPW with either half the amount of honey required or 1 cup honey and half a cup apple sauce. Well a few months ago I started thinking along the lines of "who am I to just assume this is all good and dandy". Sure I've spoken in depth about it with my vet and he is extremely against the use of any honey what so ever. So as of now the lack of honey choice is because of discussion with other glider members and my own vet. But honestly this is not enough IMO.

It won't be completed for a few months which is why I don't talk to publicly about all of this just yet. My vet has agreed to do a very detailed analysis of all current diets. Compare it to what is felt is needed. I am trying to talk him into doing a study necropsy on a glider in the future that would die in the area. Necropsys aren't just good for finding out what has happened to the glider but are very good educational use for vets. I have a VERY capable vet who has worked in exotics for over ten years but gliders he is limited in.

Its a working progress and I feel that we should have MANY vets do their own analysis because one opinion could be different than another and not JUST ONE vet can be the deciding factor on what is best to feed. Not just my current vet, not just Suzy Q's vet , not Peter Parker's vet. We need many studies done and I'm pretty sure a few individuals are talking to their vet about this.

Ok this got a little off topic. Basically what I am saying is that I feel that Honey is completely unnessicary to be used in the quantity HPW diet calls for. I think it could VERY easily cause health issues. Do gliders eat honey in the wild?? No. Do they eat anything close in makeup?? Not from what I've been told.

So currently it is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There have been many people I suggest cutting honey down in diets. But I'm not going to sit here and say my way is so much better. And this has nothing to do with the creator of HPW or her vet or anything of that nature. It was a choice. And I AM currently working with my vet to have solid FACTS not just opinions to support my idea.

Last edited by Laurens_Babies; 04/18/09 10:08 PM.

~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767124
04/18/09 10:06 PM
04/18/09 10:06 PM
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Kansas City, MO
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I would like to say that the day I started cutting down on honey my gliders started eating their fruits again..


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767130
04/18/09 10:19 PM
04/18/09 10:19 PM

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Quote:
So currently it is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There have been many people I suggest cutting honey down in diets. But I'm not going to sit here and say my way is so much better. And this has nothing to do with the creator of HPW or her vet or anything of that nature. It was a choice. And I AM currently working with my vet to have solid FACTS not just opinions to support my idea.


Actually, in the wild, gliders eat few fruits and vegetables and several foods that are similar to honey, such as flower nectar, tree sap, and gum...

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767135
04/18/09 10:37 PM
04/18/09 10:37 PM
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Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline
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I don't think that nutritionally its the same Leyna. And sap and nectar they don't eat on a regular basis. But there you go THIS is why I'm wanting to work with my vet.


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767140
04/18/09 10:53 PM
04/18/09 10:53 PM
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okay.. here I am, in a place I don't want to be, but feel I must add something here.

for starts.. are the diets perfect? NO... is there room for improvements? sure? but where do we start? Hmmm lets see. lets start with hmmm can't do that diet, too many people are modifying it.. how about .. lets say... nope sorry can't start there either.. people modifying it too.

so.. lets say that.... who knows where it needs to start? so lets just start picking and choosing ingredients, eventually the diets are going to be so messed up, that there will not be a standard for any of the diets to go by, and we will be right back where we started..

first you have to take the health issues.. so lets take the ones that is the most common..

giardia or other parasites

bacterial infections

swelled faces - bacterial

urinary tract infections

upper respiratory infections

obesity

pneumonia

liver issues

kidney failure

cancer/internal lumps


yep seems that they all point to honey.. NOT!!!
okay well then.. lets say that they all point to iron... NOT!!!

well then if it isn't honey, and it isn't iron, then maybe it is the corn and peas, yes that must be it, since that is what the owners of these problems all have in common.

I am just being facetious here. but the point I am trying to make is really much simpler than this.

I see this all the time, and I have seen it for years, someone gets a thought, an idea, a theory, a speculation, they tell someone else. next thing you know , it is blown so far out of proportion that it is hard to decide what is real and what isn't.

diabetes is not a big issue with gliders, how many people really test out their gliders for this? there are tests available, and so little use of it.

so what is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish with reducing the amount of honey in the HPW? (wanting your gliders to eat more veggies)? because this is what has been posted so far, so is this the judge as to whether or not this is what is wrong with this diet?

you have to ask yourself why you chose this diet in the first place.why did you choose this one and not the PML, or why not one of the other diets?

Melissa, you and I already spoke about this. changing things around because someone said this or that.. doesn't give the diet an opportunity to show whether or not there is an issue with it. If you are modifying it, then you can't say that it is the diet, or the changes that have been implemented.

Am I saying there isn't too much honey in the diet? NO, simply put, I don't know.

I do know the BML, and I can't even say what needs to be fixed there, since far too many people have already been modify it. The modifications made usually start a chain of different issues.. because then, once a change is made, later on they notice problems, so the change they made didn't work so they change something else. etc.. this continues, till the diet you started with is no where near the diet you currently use. but since you started with the diet, that is what you tell people you use..

first address the common health issues, decide what it is you are trying to accomplish. then find out, if the changes will fix it, but remember that many things can be contributing factors.

Lauren I applaud you for wanting to find out more.. but it seems to me you are working backwards, changing the diet, then testing to find out if it will fit into your theory.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767147
04/18/09 11:05 PM
04/18/09 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Sure I've spoken in depth about it with my vet and he is extremely against the use of any honey what so ever.


Quote:
Compare it to what is felt is needed.


Quote:
I think it could VERY easily cause health issues.


the more people that think this way, the more problems we will see that is diet related, not just with the honey, but with everything.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767150
04/18/09 11:19 PM
04/18/09 11:19 PM
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kentucky
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Bourbon,

Yes we did talk about this. After much thought i was still concerned about the amount of honey. Im not trying to change the diet nore am i saying anything bad about the diet. I LOVE the diet but i cant help but worry about it. Am i worring over nothing? prob i tend to do that when it comes to my kids or my fur kids. I do not worry about it causing a lot of health prob but the 2 that worry me are diabetes and rotting the teeth. The teeth part im sure im worring over nothing. The other i dont know.

I agree that in changing the diet how can we say it cause the health probs. Im more worried if my glider have probs and i didnt do something to prevent it but i had my thoughts that it might be too much honey and i didnt do anything about it. I would feel bad. Sorry i know that didnt make sense.

I do think that before u go and change something u should step back and ask why do u think it needs to be changed and look into it first. I did not do this i just changed what i felt was too much honey.

How long has the HWP diet been used? Has anyone ever had a glider have health probs and it be known that it was due to to much honey like diabetes?

I do not want to start any trouble over this i just worry about my babies.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767152
04/18/09 11:23 PM
04/18/09 11:23 PM
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Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bourbon

Lauren I applaud you for wanting to find out more.. but it seems to me you are working backwards, changing the diet, then testing to find out if it will fit into your theory.



I freely admit this B. Which is why I won't change what I'm currently feeding my gliders I don't want to throw them off but I'm going to continue to pursue this on a broader more medical/factual terms. I am not an expert but I feel there are many issues needing to be addressed. So in hopes with experts and what knowledge I do bring to the table I can aid in finding out WHAT IS BEST.
I just want to clarify it isn't just honey I will be looking into. A comparison of a FULL breakdown of MANY diets compared to what is actually needed for them. I suppose the breakdown is easy, but the "what they need and what things such as :honey, iron, eggs, bee pollen, vitamins" are doing more harm than good and visa versa. Ya know? I'm not trying to pretend to be more medically aware than I am. But I do see a lot of problems peeking their heads. My first gliders lived close to their teens. But I'm scared my current ones won't. When I first started with gliders MANY YEARS AGO I fed veggies fruits and assorted versions of protein: eggs, mealworms, chicken. Very healthy til their final month of living. One died an age related death and the other died because she lost her first cage mate. Now I feed HPW.. and yet people are seeing younger and younger gliders die and the average life span is 7-8. I see a problem I took a step advised on fellow glider owners opinions. NOW I'm going to take a step back and follow thru the way I should have from the start.

All this talk about glider diets and my babies are currently barking cause I'm late with theirs. I'll bbl..


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767154
04/18/09 11:34 PM
04/18/09 11:34 PM
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Kansas City, MO
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Lets take a step back .. and look at it different...

Why USE honey?? No one has ever been able to answer me with good facts on why to use it?


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767165
04/18/09 11:54 PM
04/18/09 11:54 PM
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has anyone really thought about something simple?

like how many small mammals, rats, mice, guinea pigs, hamsters etc.. how their life expectancy is like a few years.. and here you have a glider.. whose life expectancy is far greater than that? why is that? people make the 7-8 year mark seem like it is tooo young for a glider to die, when in reality.. it isn't

everyone wants all the gliders to live forever, I would have loved that with Baybe.. but look in retrospect with other animals..

average life span of a dog is depending on size up to 15 years..
but reality is.. how many dogs really do live that long?
average age of a dogs life is 8-9 years at 10 they are considered OLD

rats.. for some reason seem to be pre-disposed to cancer life span, 2-3 years.. I had one live longer than that.. but in reality the majority don't make it to the 2 year mark.

all the talk about the amount of honey, but no talk about their metabolic basal rate, no talk about their energy metabolisms

these are things the basic necropsy don't show.

where does obesity come in here, where does the immune system come in here?

I am sorry.. but like I said there are many many factors to consider.

changing a diet on a whim is dangerous, if you don't like it, then switch to something you are more comfortable with.

Lauren, you said..

Quote:
My first gliders lived close to their teens. But I'm scared my current ones won't.


this makes no sense.. you were on a diet that worked for you, then you switched your diet to something you are not comfortable with, then you modify the diet, virtually unknowing what the problems are with the diet (if there is any) and then you test. the changes you make, may shorten their life span, but your not concerned because you made the change you "THINK" could extend their life span..

ever think that again many factors could be playing various roles.. lack of flight time, lack of turpor, lack of proper bodily movements that could increase their life, lessen the obesity, and overall, give you a healthier glider? Look at things like over feeding, over breeding confinement, lack of foraging opportunities for various things, Genetics, over handling/by humans, the human environments, pesticides on foods, etc....

now since the changes in the diet seem to be centered around the honey, what exactly are you looking for as to the changes..

melissa, have you tested your gliders for diabetes before you made the change? are your gliders have dental issues?

if you look at the few less than 10 gliders that have dental issues, has everything been looked at to eliminate the possible contributing factors? what could affect teeth? what could cause infections in the mouth, what could cause a bacterial infection?


Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767182
04/19/09 12:14 AM
04/19/09 12:14 AM
Joined: May 2007
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kentucky
ssdreamsicles Offline
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No I did not test my glider before hand as none of my glider have probs. I cut the honey in hopes of not having probs.

None of my glider have dental probs.

I guess im looking at this from human standards. Too much sugar and things like that can cause us to have a cavity or rot our teeth.

Mabey i do need to step back and look at other factors. Do glider break foods down diff? When u break the honey down in the diet how much are they really getting? 1 1/2 cups seems like a lot but what are they really getting per night per glider?

There are a lot of things to cinsider and i see this. Like i said before i guess i am trying to fix a prob before it happens.

But i really am interested in a study that shows there is no harm in it and what honey brings to the diet. I understand the bee pollen, hpw powder and egg but what is the honey really doing?

I do ask please do not pass judgment on me and think me a bad person. I am just interested in my glider health.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ssdreamsicles] #767184
04/19/09 12:16 AM
04/19/09 12:16 AM
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Quote:

I do ask please do not pass judgment on me and think me a bad person. I am just interested in my glider health.


you met me, you know that is not the case here.. love ya girl.. but i love your babies too..

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767185
04/19/09 12:17 AM
04/19/09 12:17 AM
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Ohio
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Here's something to think about...

If gliders suddenly start eating their fruits/veggies after to substitute some of the honey for applesauce then doesn't it make you wonder why they're suddenly eating something that they were only picking at before?

I mean, if the gliders were healthy and active before, but weren't eating their fruits and veggies then don't you think it's safe to say that they were getting everything that they needed from what little they were eating?

Animals know when they've gotten what they needed and they don't gorge themselves(okay, there ARE a few that will, lol. I've got some that would eat mealies til the end of days if they could! roflmao ). They eat only what they need, whether that be 1 tablesppon of food or 5 tablespoons.

Why does it matter WHERE they're getting their nutrition(whether that be fruits/veggies or honey) just so long as they are actually getting it?

I agree with Bourbon. So many people are changing around "approved diets" before they even give the diets a chance. And most people simply see someone else making the changes and think "ooo...I'll try that too!" and NOT based on the recommendation of a vet!

Lauren, have you only talked to your one vet? Personally, I would talk to multiple vets and get multiple opinions before changing anything around. As we all know from being in the glider community for even a week: vet's don't always know best! I once called a VERY highly-recommended exotic vet in IL(Midwest Bird and Exotic Animal vet...or something like that...) and they asked me if I wanted the gliders' teeth filed?! :o Another vet told me to feed cat food!

There have been NUMEROUS vets that have looked at HPW(whether at a glance or a bit more in-depth) and given it their approval when owners bring in their gliders and asked their vets about HPW. Why start changing things around based solely on the opinion of one vet and his unfounded hatred of honey?


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767186
04/19/09 12:18 AM
04/19/09 12:18 AM

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Melissa if you don't mind me asking... what were your babies on that lived to their teens? What diet I mean.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767193
04/19/09 12:33 AM
04/19/09 12:33 AM
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I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.


Lynn Martel
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Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: gliderma] #767199
04/19/09 12:47 AM
04/19/09 12:47 AM
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Kansas City, MO
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Originally Posted By: gliderma
I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.


But how long have you been feeding that?? This is the stuff I've been talking about. B since your the #1 source on BML how long ago did you introduce it to the community? HPW has only been fed for what?? 2-3 years?? We don't know its long term effects.

Bourbon when I was feeding very basic diets I was not breeding and I was not in this community. I felt to breed I needed to search for a better diet.

sleep sleep sleep
Oh my how bored am I of having this same fight over and over again. Look guys I got dragged into this thread by name and I thought I would come and share my opinions. I don't force my way upon others I do what I can to consult vets. And there is me and many others who breed and cut honey down in their diets. And won't admit it openly because of this same old diet fight. I'm not talking about feeding BML and taking out the vitamins and baby food and calling it BML, I'm talking about reducing the amount of honey REDUCING.

Yes Nicole I think MANY vets should be in on this but hey guess what I've said this all ready haven't I?

sleep
I've got a lot on my plate right now so I'm going to remove myself from this topic. I'll ttyl!!!!!

Last edited by Laurens_Babies; 04/19/09 12:48 AM.

~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767206
04/19/09 01:08 AM
04/19/09 01:08 AM
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I started the applesauce substitution for 1/2 cup of honey just this week because one of my babies is kind of getting "fluffy." I'd heard others recommend it, and was told it didn't upset the calcium:phosphorus ratio at all.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Laurens_Babies] #767225
04/19/09 02:05 AM
04/19/09 02:05 AM
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Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: gliderma] #767228
04/19/09 02:07 AM
04/19/09 02:07 AM
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Guerita135  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: gliderma
I must be really lucky! I have 13 healthy gliders all on HPW as it was originally intended and they eat well everynight! Sure, some nights the plate is licked clean and others there's some leftovers, but all in all they seem to be very happy with what they get. The amount of honey is not excessive in my opinion. It's not like they are getting that all in one night! It's actually very little that they get in each serving over time. Just thought I'd share how lucky I feel to be using HPW successfully.


We must be lucky too because we've got almost 30 adult gliders, ALL of which are healthy(only once Milky Way had the sniffles because he got sick from the puppy...or so the vet thinks) as well as 14 healthy joeys so far and 2 more healthy ones on the way! grin

Sandbat, gliders don't just need calcium and phosphorus to survive, so just becuse they're getting the right cal:phos ratio doesn't mean that they're getting everything that they need. That's why I think ghtat people need to talk to their vets(as well as consult with others) before changing their diet rather then just changing it because they "heard others recommend it". People recommend feeding pellets as a diet all the time and feeding cat food, but that doesn't make it right. See what I mean?

Why try and fix something that has shown no signs of being broken?


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Guerita135] #767232
04/19/09 02:14 AM
04/19/09 02:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 323
Twin Lakes, WI
Nicki Offline
Glider Lover
Nicki  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 323
Twin Lakes, WI
I'm really glad this thread was started...

Thanks Bourbon for that info on Honey - I see it in a different light now smile


~* Gliders need a voice, they will always have mine (and my heart, too!) *~

I'm always willing to help. 262.206.2888 you can contact me anytime, day or night.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Nicki] #767298
04/19/09 09:56 AM
04/19/09 09:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
I have been researching glider diets for months. I have entered data on foods used to make all the recognized glider diets into an Excel spreadsheet that has formulas to evaluate the foods combined in each diet - and also can bu used to evaluate any changes made to the recipes to see the nutritional changes.

Here are the results per glider serving (for those who have asked)if you change the HPW recipe to include 1 cup Honey with 3/4 cup applesauce rather than 1 3/4 cup Honey. It really does not change the sugar content much if that is the goal.

with Apl HPW
Calcium mg 7.49 5.98
Phosphorus mg 8.31 6.58
Ratio 0.9:1 0.9:1
protein mg 0.5 0.40
Sugar mg 3.25 3.57
Fat mg 0.2 0.16
fiber mg 0.11 0.07

(Sorry if the columns do not line up)

The Excel file can be used to see the nutrients in each of the recognized diets combined with the fruits and vegetables offered to see the total value of the meal.

Check my diet Calculator
http://hstrial-cotte1.homestead.com/references.html

I hope many folks will find this useful to see how their fruit and vegetable choices match with their chosen recognized diet.

Personally, I am using a blended diet that contains all the ingredients of BML except Wheat Germ and the reptile vitamins and uses HWP powder, bee pollen and a human grade calcium carbonate powder supplements. The combination puts all of the nutrient values mid-range between BML and HPW diets values. That would be a topic for another thread.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Nicki] #767300
04/19/09 10:08 AM
04/19/09 10:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
HPW has only been fed for what?? 2-3 years??


Actually, I have been feeding the HPW for going on 5-1/2 years now. I have personally NEVER had ANY health issues regarding diet and I have only had one death and that was Bug due to a Urinary Bladder infection. When the necrospy was done on her, Dr.Tristan did not see ANYTHING going on with her internal organs, and we had to send tissue samples out to find out her cause of death.

I will NOT sit here and *defend* a diet. If any or all of you wish to change it around because YOU dont feel comfortable with it, I say go for it....they are your gliders....

Now for the applesauce thing...I have seen so many different *stories* on WHY it has gotten changed...let me share a little something with you all, and if you dont believe me, go ask Alicia...

The way that applesauce ever came into play is because Alicia RAN OUT OF HONEY!!! It was going to be a substitution for that one time. Her gliders ate it, they loved it, so she stuck with it and she felt ok with it. I will say that yes I did try it once, yes my gliders DID like it, they DID eat more fruit and then I thought....so what? I talked to Tristan about it, he said why fix something that is not broken??? He was right, so after that one batch with applesauce, I am back feeding it the original way my gliders have had it for YEARS with NO illnesses.

Now, with that being said, I DID have to go get in a rescue that was being fed nothing but applesauce, and guess what....it was given to Tristan by the animal control because it had an abscess in its gums that needed to be drained....

Yes, using the applesauce is cheaper, as we all know that honey is the most expensive part of a diet, and yes, they will eat more fruits, so you arent really saving money if you are having to buy more in fruits...so all it tells me is my gliders are getting what they need from their HPW and dont need anything from fruits...

Everyone has to feed what YOU feel comfortable feeding YOUR gliders. Until someone can show me DOCUMENTED PROOF from a veterinarian STUDY that shows that the amount of honey is too much, me and my gliders will stick to the diet that they have been on most of their lives.

For those of you who are going to try to find others to help you do your studies, good luck with it, as I have noticed too many times now, people like to sit and complain and *Think* They know what the issues are but when asked to help find the REAL cause, nobody comes up to the plate...


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Srlb] #767304
04/19/09 10:10 AM
04/19/09 10:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
1 3/4 cup Honey


It should only be 1-1/2 cup honey....


So your numbers are not correct.

Quote:
Personally, I am using a blended diet that contains all the ingredients of BML except Wheat Germ and the reptile vitamins and uses HWP powder, bee pollen and a human grade calcium carbonate powder supplements. The combination puts all of the nutrient values mid-range between BML and HPW diets values. That would be a topic for another thread.


Additional calcium does not need to be added when using the HPW powder.

I have had several sets of xrays done and blood work done on my gliders, of all ages, and their bone density is always excellent. Using too much calcium can be an issue as well.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: CandyOtte] #767305
04/19/09 10:14 AM
04/19/09 10:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
Glider Slave
DirtyPaws  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
Ok, the recipe I have for HPW calls for 1 1/2 C honey. Is 1 3/4 what's correct? Or did I get a modified version with my HPW powder?

I'm not interested in changing anything from the original formula at the time. I'm just watching this thread for my own personal knowledge as I feed HPW.

Thank you Candy for the calculator. As soon as I figure how to get the softwear to work I will be using it to make sure I'm feeding all the fruits & veggies properly together.

Although, one of my cages is of 4, so I really have to watch to see if someone is skipping one or more food items altogether. shakehead


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: DirtyPaws] #767307
04/19/09 10:15 AM
04/19/09 10:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
Glider Slave
DirtyPaws  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
HaHa Peggy! We were typing at the same time!

Thank you for the correction!


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: DirtyPaws] #767308
04/19/09 10:16 AM
04/19/09 10:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Crystal I believe you ordered your HPW from me and I send out the instructions on how to make it with each order. If this is the case than you have the ORIGINAL directions...

it is 1-1/2 cup honey....


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Srlb] #767317
04/19/09 10:41 AM
04/19/09 10:41 AM

J
Julie2520
Unregistered
Julie2520
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Quote: I will NOT sit here and *defend* a diet. If any or all of you wish to change it around because YOU dont feel comfortable with it, I say go for it....they are your gliders....


Well said Peggy. That is the bottom line I believe. There is no doubt that everyone here loves and is devoted to the well-being of their gliders.
It is through questioning, study and trial and error that we have the diets we have today and everything I have read says basically that these diets are a "best guess". The fact that we have improved the life span in capivity, predators notwithstanding, really says a lot. Is continued research and possible future diet changes a bad thing? I don't believe so.
I know in my heart, no matter how long or short the lives of my gliders are, that they were loved, happy and well cared for. What more could any of us want, human or glider?

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767422
04/19/09 02:00 PM
04/19/09 02:00 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
I will NOT sit here and *defend* a diet.


Then don't.... no defense needed.. point being why is changes being made ? nothing valid is showing the honey is an issue. just because someone thinks it needs changed based on a vet aversion to honey? or based on someone "thinking" there is too much.

also point being many people will follow a change and not know why the change is in place or how that change would affect that particular diet.

also regarding the obesity. the gliders in the wild are bigger than our gliders here, because they live outside with changing temperatures. The HPW was originally set up for those gliders.

people who don't want obese gliders need to catch them BEFORE they are grossly overweight as they see they are gaining, try to ascertain why they are gaining.

there are many factors to consider.

treats, temperatures, genetics, stress, breeding or lack thereof

many people have far too much in their cage and the gliders don't have to "work to get their food, in the wild they stretch their membranes a lot, in the wild most of their environmental movements are vertical, they don't just hop short movements from place to place, they have large areas to glide often.

when pockets first came out with the PML, (hpw was a spawn off of that), she had a little forest in her home, she not only tried to duplicate their diets in the wild, but also their environment.

changing the ingredients of a diet is not going to help the way a glider metabolizes it's energy.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767433
04/19/09 02:29 PM
04/19/09 02:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Thank you for catching the error in the amount of Honey in HPW.

I am correcting it now and the CORRECTED Excel File will be posted within the hour.

I want this tool to be useful for those that want to know how their fruit and vegetable choices match up with their chosen diet.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: CandyOtte] #767472
04/19/09 03:46 PM
04/19/09 03:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 652
Dallas, TX
sandbat Offline
Glider Guardian
sandbat  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 652
Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: OtteMom
Thank you for catching the error in the amount of Honey in HPW.

I am correcting it now and the CORRECTED Excel File will be posted within the hour.

I want this tool to be useful for those that want to know how their fruit and vegetable choices match up with their chosen diet.


I'd be interested in that excel sheet when you're done, if that's okay.

Bourbon, I switched to making the HPW with 1 cup honey -1/2 cup applesauce because I'd heard they got HPW with slightly less honey in it before they came to me. I am still trying to figure out what is going on with Danni's sudden weight gain, and I think it's because the other two monopolize the stealth so much. I'm getting them another one to fix that problem, too, and I'm trying to get her to play more when she's in the tent instead of hiding in my shirt/pants leg.

I'm sorry if my mentioning it in the other thread caused controversy. D: Thanks everyone.

Last edited by sandbat; 04/19/09 03:52 PM.
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: sandbat] #767491
04/19/09 04:08 PM
04/19/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CORRECTIONS have been made to HPW to reflect 1 & 1/2 cup honey - I also had an error in the amoutn of water in the calculation (recipe was correct I entered the incorrect # of TBS in the formula)

here is the corrected comparison for HPW using 3/4 cup honey and 3/4 cup applesauce and the correct HPW

with Apl - HPW
Calcium mg 4.7 - 4.75
Phosphorus mg 5.2 - 5.23
Ratio 0.9:1 - 0.9:1
protein mg 0.32 - 0.32
Sugar mg 1.61 - 2.86
Fat mg 0.13 - 0.13
fiber mg 0.07 - 0.06

(Sorry if the columns do not line up)

The Excel file has been corrected also. This can be used to see the nutrients in each of the recognized diets combined with the fruits and vegetables offered to see the total value of the meal.

Check my diet Calculator
http://hstrial-cotte1.homestead.com/references.html

If you have the Excel program when you click on the diet Calculator link on the web page you can either open or SAVE the file for future use.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: CandyOtte] #767513
04/19/09 04:57 PM
04/19/09 04:57 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
candy the recipe you had was PML, you can find that in the diets archive under PML

the water and honey is of different measures, also the pml doesn't have bee pollen


sandbat, i understand, as for the sudden weight gain, look at the treats, and the amounts of fruits and veggies you also offer. their activity is another thing, I don't think it is the stealth per sae.. they need more of the hand over hand movement where they stretch their membrane, getting them to glide more often, I try to encourage people to re look at their cages, look at how easy it is for them to get to things, mainly since the over filling of the cage makes it so they can walk to get to what they want..

place the stealth in such a place where they have to figure out how to get into it, stretching from the top etc.. make their foraging toys where they have to streatch and work to get to them.. soon you will see differences.

also look at the "fluffy one, isn't getting to the fruits and veggies first, and not eating the staple.. offer the fruits and veggies by hand during the day so you know each one is getting their fair share (measure them out.)
offer 3 feeding stations 1 for each glider placed in difference places hidden behind things so the others can see them.

also check out their genetics, see if that family is predisposed to being overweight

weigh them , males should be between 120-140
females between 100-120

gliders on the hpw, may weight more and the weight be placed differently.. to check if they are "overweight feel their membrane, if it is thick, they are over weight.

the man boobs, are fat stores that all gliders get in the fall, by spring they start losing it and they seem empty. if they work off the fat they have stored for the winter

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: CandyOtte] #767527
04/19/09 05:22 PM
04/19/09 05:22 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
Guess it's time to come out of the HPW closet! I've been substituting 1/2 cup of natural, unsweetened applesauce for 1/2 cup of the honey for a couple of months now. My reason was that my 3 older gliders had become noticeably fluffier since they started on HPW last August.

Originally Posted By: OtteMom
Here are the results per glider serving (for those who have asked)if you change the HPW recipe to include 1 cup Honey with 3/4 cup applesauce rather than 1 3/4 cup Honey. It really does not change the sugar content much if that is the goal.

with Apl HPW
Calcium mg 7.49 5.98
Phosphorus mg 8.31 6.58
Ratio 0.9:1 0.9:1
protein mg 0.5 0.40
Sugar mg 3.25 3.57
Fat mg 0.2 0.16
fiber mg 0.11 0.07

CORRECTIONS
with Apl - HPW
Calcium mg 4.7 - 4.75
Phosphorus mg 5.2 - 5.23
Ratio 0.9:1 - 0.9:1
protein mg 0.32 - 0.32
Sugar mg 1.61 - 2.86
Fat mg 0.13 - 0.13
fiber mg 0.07 - 0.06

I'm not sure about the sugar content listed, Candy. 1/2 cup of the honey I use has 80 gm of sugar = 240 gm for the batch. 1/2 cup of the applesauce (unsweetened) has 11 gm of sugar = 171 gm for the batch with 1/2 c applesauce or about 135 gm for a batch with 3/4 c each. Did your study use sweetened applesauce? (Note - sugar looks MUCH better after the correction.)

My original trio had been on BML for 3 years, according to their previous owner, and they no longer seemed interested in it. At least half was still in the bowl in the morning. Two new babies came to live with me in August who had been weaned onto HPW so I bought a sample pack of HPW supplies with the intention of gradually switching them to BML. Just out of curiosity, I gave the trio a small amount of HPW and they licked up every drop. So, instead of switching the joeys to BML, I switched my trio to HPW.

My fluffy gliders have gradually slimmed down. Their weights range from 70 grams for my youngest (9 months) to 127 grams for my oldest/previously fluffiest (4 years). Their bowls are licked clean every morning, including veggies, fruit smoothie and about a tbsp of fresh fruit.

I am so far from an expert it isn't even funny. My analytical brain of my youth no longer has the inclination or ability to analyze! This is just what seems to be working for my gliders right now.

Originally Posted By: Srlb
The way that applesauce ever came into play is because Alicia RAN OUT OF HONEY!!! It was going to be a substitution for that one time.
Now that's funny! Necessity is the mother of invention!


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: nancy1202] #767531
04/19/09 05:25 PM
04/19/09 05:25 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Nancy, you also increased their activity level in the last few months as well..

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #767540
04/19/09 05:36 PM
04/19/09 05:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Srlb I talked to Tristan about it, he said why fix something that is not broken??? [/quote


That's exactly how I feel as well!

[quote=Julie2520]..
It is through questioning, study and trial and error that we have the diets we have today and everything I have read says basically that these diets are a "best guess".


One issue I see with this: what exactly would the "error" be?... When a glider gets sick and/or dies? I prefer not to do "trial and error" when it comes to the well-being of my gliders, which is why I chose a diet that is already tried and true and everyone that I know who has switched their gliders to HPW(myself included) has always had great things to say about it: fur is smoother and thicker, skinny gliders gained weight, chubby gliders lost weight, joeys are born bigger and healthier and fluffier, etc... I've never once read something negative about HPW.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767542
04/19/09 05:46 PM
04/19/09 05:46 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
also check out their genetics, see if that family is predisposed to being overweight

weigh them , males should be between 120-140
females between 100-120
Uh-oh... time to fatten up my skinny gliders! blush


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: nancy1202] #767547
04/19/09 05:55 PM
04/19/09 05:55 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
Uh-oh... time to fatten up my skinny gliders


you know the diet is on the "right track if the gliders show you in their health..

I have seen people mess with the diets they thought as you, that they had to be thinner than they were.. but the truth is as nicole stated above, over weight gliders should lose weight, underweight gliders should gain weight , till they reach their healthy nutritional weight.. which also means that gliders that have issues.. example is joey jo, attacked by his father as a joey, was very very tiny for many months.

he is still small only weight 85 grams, but his frame is still very small, his size is not what his age should be, but he is very proportioned. but he is at his healthy nutritional weight.

when the diets are messed with , so is the gliders weight..
Talking to someone the other day, she was feeding 1 tablespoon of BML but too many fruits and veggies, although the gliders were eating it all, they were on the small side. by reducing the "extras" to what it should be, the diet becomes more balanced. she should start seeing a difference.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Bourbon] #767575
04/19/09 06:50 PM
04/19/09 06:50 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



I've been feeding hpw for almost a year...roughly. I always follow the recipe as is. But...mine seem to eat 95% of everything each night. Granted, some mornings they'll be a few carrots left in the bowls, or pears, etc. I guess I'm lucky to have gliders that eat everything I put in their cage.

And gliders have high metabolisms...so yes I agree that an active "lifestyle" for them is very necessary. Tent time, bathroom play time...things to get our gliders out and about. So I agree with Bourbon...I think the diet (no matter which diet it is) AND their level of activity has to go hand in hand. I have to make sure Renny gets ample play time since she loves to eat, and rarely gets in the wheel. So I make sure she gets a lot of play time in the tent. I encourage her to jump to me...stretch to reach my hand, etc. Not that she's super fluffy, but she is larger than Quincy.

And with the amount of honey in hpw...and the serving size the recipe calls for per glider...it's not like the gliders get a HUGE amount of honey per serving.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #768568
04/21/09 05:57 PM
04/21/09 05:57 PM

P
partyofsix
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partyofsix
Unregistered
P



I just went through this post and found all the information very interesting. I also just wanted to add that recent studies show that honey is an anti-fungal. Many doctors believe that it can help prevent cancer.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #768780
04/22/09 07:01 AM
04/22/09 07:01 AM

B
BabyLoveGliders
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BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
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In reading nutritional values of honey it's very important to know... which kind of honey... So, what kind of honey are you guys using in your HPW? and which kind is actually recommended?

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #768828
04/22/09 10:32 AM
04/22/09 10:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Leyna
Quote:
So currently it is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There have been many people I suggest cutting honey down in diets. But I'm not going to sit here and say my way is so much better. And this has nothing to do with the creator of HPW or her vet or anything of that nature. It was a choice. And I AM currently working with my vet to have solid FACTS not just opinions to support my idea.


Actually, in the wild, gliders eat few fruits and vegetables and several foods that are similar to honey, such as flower nectar, tree sap, and gum...


A little late on this thread, but the "sugars" in honey are FAR FAR different from anything found in saps/gums and from the research I've done any of the "fruits" (totally different from the ones we feed) even have different sugar/carb make-ups. Mature insects are also a good portion of wild diet as well as blossoms.


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #769156
04/22/09 10:18 PM
04/22/09 10:18 PM

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astronoc
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I am wondering if there has been any studies done on the wild populations and the diet they eat. Not only that but a full nutritional analysis of the wild diet.

Is that something that is available and if it is, can someone link me to it?

Thanks!

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #769175
04/22/09 11:07 PM
04/22/09 11:07 PM

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Julie2520
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(Quote: Guerita135) One issue I see with this: what exactly would the "error" be?... When a glider gets sick and/or dies? I prefer not to do "trial and error" when it comes to the well-being of my gliders


"Trial and error" is simply a figure of speech that can obviously be construed into whatever meaning fits your argument. I highly doubt anyone in this discussion is risking their glider's lives! You had me picturing mad scientists whipping up poisonous applesauce concoctions and wailing "Drat! another fatal ERROR in the diet experiment!" LOL

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #769194
04/23/09 12:23 AM
04/23/09 12:23 AM
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Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
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Nicole, when BML and PML were both started, they were not known diets, research went into both diets but no one knew for sure if they would work or not.

Anyhow, yes, Peggy is right, I didn't have enough honey to make the amount of batches I wanted to one night. I had almost enough, but not quite, so I replaced 1/2 of a cup of honey with 1/2 of a cup of applesauce. Leaving me with 1 cup of honey and 1/2 of a cup of applesauce. I actually thought there was a lot of honey per batch, and I thought... let's just see.

I noticed my gliders ate more than just the HPW (they love that stuff)and ate a little more of the fruits (not all). I actually figured if they ate no more fruit than normal, then they at least ate the applesauce that was snuck in the HPW. So after my batches made this way were gone, I just kept it up. 3 plus years later, and I still feed it that way. My gliders are healthy and happy and they look good.

I have no facts, no proof that this is way is the best way, and I only told a few people about it (usually after they tell me their gliders don't like their fruit) it is just the best way for me, in my opinion.

I can not see how 1/2 a cup less honey in the whole batch would make much of a difference, but I don't judge others who feel like it does. To each their own.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: queenduck] #769255
04/23/09 07:57 AM
04/23/09 07:57 AM

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Sorry, I'm kind of late to respond, but I lost track of this post...

Lauren, honey is actually much more similar to gum, sap, and nectar than you might think. For example, did you know that honey and acacia gum both have antiseptic qualities. And nectar is high in sugar, just like honey... Heck, honey is more or less just a processed and fermented form of nectar. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if gliders also consumed honey in the wild. A lot of animals raise bee hives and with gliders living in trees and having a sweet tooth, I have little doubt that they eat raw honey in the wild.

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #770315
04/25/09 04:40 PM
04/25/09 04:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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The TYPE of sugars found in acacia gum and euc saps are FAR different than in honey. Honey is both fructose and glucose - Euc sap mainly sucrose and raffinose. Acacia gum consisting of pentose and hexose sugars.

Different types of sugars are metabolized in different ways.


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #770358
04/25/09 06:55 PM
04/25/09 06:55 PM
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Posts: 2,321
Maryland
Holly1221 Offline
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well now that this has caught my eye.. i'll have to go back and re-read it all thoroughly.
:O Bourbon, are you serious ?!

Quote:
males should be between 120-140
females between 100-120


eep ! Misos only weighs 100 and Phoenix and Lacee both weigh 80. granted they get way more out of cage time then they did b4. and Jeff has been making Phoenix and Lacee stretch to get their num-nums [treats]. great, now i kinda feel like they aren't eating enough.. but that's for another topic i spose

Last edited by Holly1221; 04/25/09 06:56 PM.

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Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Holly1221] #770380
04/25/09 08:10 PM
04/25/09 08:10 PM

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Leyna
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Quote:
The TYPE of sugars found in acacia gum and euc saps are FAR different than in honey. Honey is both fructose and glucose - Euc sap mainly sucrose and raffinose. Acacia gum consisting of pentose and hexose sugars.

Different types of sugars are metabolized in different ways.


"Levulose, C6H12O6, a form of sugar abundant in honey and some fruits, is a carbohydrate which has been found in many instances to be more easily appropriated by diabetics than are cane-sugar, glucose, and many starchy foods (von Noorden)"

Where did you get your information that Honey is mostly 'fructose and glucose'?

"Honey was long thought to be mainly levulose and dextrose, with some sucrose and dextrins"

Also:

"Because of the type of sugars that honey consists of, absorbtion of honey by the body occurs through a mechanism called "active transport." While something "active " may seem like it should be quicker than the passive mechanism of osmosis, the opposite is true...

Because the sugars in Honey depend upon a carrier to move them across the membrane barrier, they are limited by how much carrier is avaialble. This means that there is less of a "rush" of sugar to the body with honey i.e. ...

* Less of a stain on the pancreas to suddenly produce large ammounts of insulin...
* Less likelihood of large peaks and valleys in the insulin /sugar curve...
* Less liklihood of hypoglycemia "

There is a lot of conflicting information out there about honey. I'm quoting information from scientist... A bulk of the info came from here: http://stevesullam.com/kohala.net/bees/composition.html

Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: ] #770677
04/26/09 03:03 PM
04/26/09 03:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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There are several sources that state the types of sugar in honey ("mainly the the monosaccharides fructose and glucose"). I could just post several different links here on GC - but in case they turn out to not be appropriate I can PM them to you if you'd like.

Heck, even a google search for "tyes of sugar in honey" brings up the info.

smile


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: Holly1221] #770788
04/26/09 07:02 PM
04/26/09 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Holly1221
well now that this has caught my eye.. i'll have to go back and re-read it all thoroughly.
:O Bourbon, are you serious ?!

Quote:
males should be between 120-140
females between 100-120


eep ! Misos only weighs 100 and Phoenix and Lacee both weigh 80. granted they get way more out of cage time then they did b4. and Jeff has been making Phoenix and Lacee stretch to get their num-nums [treats]. great, now i kinda feel like they aren't eating enough.. but that's for another topic i spose


I think you have to take those figures with a grain of salt. It is just like with people - some are larger and some are smaller, but both can be in healthy ranges for them.

I have a girl that is 70 grams and perfectly healthy. I have a boy that is very overweight if he weighs 130. More important that a specific weight target is what the glider's body condition is. If you aren't sure, have a knowledgeable vet check them over and let you know what to look for.

Weighing them at the same time every week is a good idea to keep watch for a sudden weight loss or gain (that could point to possible problems). Find the weight that your gliders are healthiest and try to keep them around there. thumb


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: DirtyPaws] #788944
06/04/09 10:06 PM
06/04/09 10:06 PM

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Amanda1981
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tounge looking at the wrong post and posting where I wasn't looking. LOL Sorry!

Last edited by Amanda1981; 06/04/09 10:07 PM.
Re: substituting honey with applesauce- HPW [Re: sugarlope] #789098
06/05/09 09:49 AM
06/05/09 09:49 AM
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Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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Sherman, Texas
Originally Posted By: sugarlope
Originally Posted By: Holly1221
well now that this has caught my eye.. i'll have to go back and re-read it all thoroughly.
:O Bourbon, are you serious ?!

Quote:
males should be between 120-140
females between 100-120


eep ! Misos only weighs 100 and Phoenix and Lacee both weigh 80. granted they get way more out of cage time then they did b4. and Jeff has been making Phoenix and Lacee stretch to get their num-nums [treats]. great, now i kinda feel like they aren't eating enough.. but that's for another topic i spose


I think you have to take those figures with a grain of salt. It is just like with people - some are larger and some are smaller, but both can be in healthy ranges for them.

I have a girl that is 70 grams and perfectly healthy. I have a boy that is very overweight if he weighs 130. More important that a specific weight target is what the glider's body condition is. If you aren't sure, have a knowledgeable vet check them over and let you know what to look for.

Weighing them at the same time every week is a good idea to keep watch for a sudden weight loss or gain (that could point to possible problems). Find the weight that your gliders are healthiest and try to keep them around there. thumb


I completely agree. Great post!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
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