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Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form #801925
07/03/09 01:14 AM
07/03/09 01:14 AM

M
Marrferr
Unregistered
Marrferr
Unregistered
M



Im new to gliders but i breed bearded dragons also. What Im trying to get at is that in my experience when 2 animals of the same Co-Dominate gene are breed together they create what is called the "Super Form" of that gene which is basically the Dominate form of the Co-Dominate Gene (Hope I havent lost you yet lol) So Ive have been try to find out what the dominate or "Super Form" of a Mosaic Sugar glider looks like or if its even been done yet?

Not to mention that if a Super Mosaic was indeed created then if a normal glider was breed to it then it would produce all Co-Dominate Mosaic offspring each and every single time guaranteed.

Im hoping to eventually test this theory myself but maybe someone out there can give me some insight on why it hasnt been done yet, or if it has what happened?

Also if two different Mosaics were breed together and there is no noticeable result then it could mean a few things:
1. There is more than one kind or line of Mosaic gene
2. There is a recessive form of the Mosaic gene

These things arent uncommon. For instance in bearded dragons there are two forms of the leather back gene, a recessive and a co-dominate, the only difference between the two is that one can produce a super form and the other can produce an invisible HET. But both give the same appearance of reduced scales. Also this shows in the axanthic form of ball pythons which have different lines of axanthism from different companies that wont work or produce any results if intermixed.

Anyone has info to help me in my dilemma?

Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: ] #801926
07/03/09 01:39 AM
07/03/09 01:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave
TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
There have been what are referred to as "super white faces", which is also a co-dominant gene. Just one generation of breeding WF to WF does not always produce a super wf though. Also the only way to tell is to breed them and see what they produce, and the choice of mate also affects the outcome.

Mosaic to mosaic I beleive has been discouraged because of the sterility in some of the mosaic lines. The never-sterile mosaic lines have only recently been bred far enough apart to consider being able to safely pair them back together. Add the fact that you only really need one mosaic to the extreme cost of buying two, and most people I think just haven't bothered to pair mosaic to mosaic. Mosaic to leu is a much more popular pairing.

I personally do not think there is any recessive mosaic genes; there have been so many non-mosaic babies from mosaics that are being bred, and even to another non-mosaic from mosaic parents, that we would have seen proof of it by now. I haven't heard of any mosaics at all being born to a non-mosaic pair.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #801929
07/03/09 02:10 AM
07/03/09 02:10 AM

M
Marrferr
Unregistered
Marrferr
Unregistered
M



I couldnt Find any pictures of super white faces, what there difference from regular white faces? Does A super Mosaic look like something that could be part of the future sugar glider breeding. And even if 2 mosaics were successfully breed together the odds of getting a super will still be:
% of time..
25 normal
50 Mosaic
25 Super mosaic
at least thats whats shown when its done with a punnet square.

Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: ] #801936
07/03/09 02:39 AM
07/03/09 02:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave
TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
There is no physical characteristics to tell a "super wf"- only through breeding. A higher generation WF has a better chance of producing more (or all) WF babies, and sometimes a lighter colored WF will also produce more WF babies, but it's just luck of the draw.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #801949
07/03/09 04:24 AM
07/03/09 04:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,061
Mesa, AZ
konotashi Offline
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konotashi  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,061
Mesa, AZ
There's really no 'super mosaic' as you've described. Like Helen said, mo to mo is normally discouraged, and costly, but even a mosaic x normal paring will give pure white mosaics, and platinum mosaics. The parent mosaic doesn't even have to have much white - I'm sure that a mosaic with just white hands and feet have the capability to produce white mos.

Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: konotashi] #801966
07/03/09 08:15 AM
07/03/09 08:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
anjill_tree Offline
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anjill_tree  Offline
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Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
IF I understand correctly all the colored gliders are recessive genes, If you go to petsugargliders.com , It explains very well.


Cathy Hart

Support Aspergers and Autism Research, help put the pieces together.
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Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: anjill_tree] #801994
07/03/09 09:44 AM
07/03/09 09:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,532
Andover, Ohio
petsugargliders Offline
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petsugargliders  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,532
Andover, Ohio
Not all colored sugar gliders are recessive genes. Mosaic and White Face for example are not. Only one parent needs to have color to reproduce the color.


Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: petsugargliders] #802057
07/03/09 01:51 PM
07/03/09 01:51 PM

M
Marrferr
Unregistered
Marrferr
Unregistered
M



I think we maybe be reaching a time where once the fertile mosaic lines are far enough apart we then consider attempting breeding 2 of the same gene together and see what may result even if its just super mosaic that has no visible difference but produces all mosaic offspring like the White face gene.

Even a small difference is stil a difference.

Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: ] #802139
07/03/09 08:16 PM
07/03/09 08:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
anjill_tree Offline
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anjill_tree  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
hey Jennifer I'm glad you set me straight. I have been trying to learn the genes. And as you see, I do better with human anatomy/biology. But, I will get it some day.


Cathy Hart

Support Aspergers and Autism Research, help put the pieces together.
www.hartlandsugargliders.com
cathyhart2texas@yahoo.com
469-964-4152
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: anjill_tree] #802165
07/03/09 10:25 PM
07/03/09 10:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
You can go Here to see a picture of Sir Lance. He is a super white. There is no noticable differnce in his coloration than another WF.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: GliderNursery] #802273
07/04/09 10:29 AM
07/04/09 10:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Lynsie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Many people have started breeding mo x mo but the result is the same as breeding mo x normal as far as we can tell so far.

Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: Lynsie] #803124
07/06/09 09:50 PM
07/06/09 09:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian
SugaWhit  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
In horses, we call this homozygous, versus heterzygous. I'm sure my spelling may be off, however, you Must cross two Paints/Appaloosas to get a homozygous color horse.
Like Gliders, when an animal exibits the color, but is from a colored x non colored parent, they only have a 50% chance of throwing the color to their foals.
To get a homozygous animal, you must cross two horses that exibit the color, and hope!

Like wise, it would bear to reason that by crossing two Mosaics, you may get a glider that is homozygous for the color, and would therefore only throw Moasics.
All of which is almost futile though, as gliders form tight bonds to their partners, and at least in my experience, can not be studded out as simply as a horse or dog would be.

What I am waiting for is genetic testing to know exactly who are gliders parents are, and color tracing!


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: SugaWhit] #803127
07/06/09 09:55 PM
07/06/09 09:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian
SugaWhit  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
Whoops that could be confusing-
In horses the two color genes that I was speaking of were in Paints (large spots of color) and in Appaloosas, (think dalmation little spots)
They are seperate colors completly, (though some have crossed them)
and are only crossed with in to get a horse that is either homozygous for either the paint color, or for the Appaloosa color.


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Co-Dominate Mosaic Gene? What about the Super Form [Re: SugaWhit] #803896
07/08/09 12:31 PM
07/08/09 12:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
I
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian
IowaMisty  Offline
Glider Guardian
I

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
It's my best guess that the Mosaic would be similar to the WF in that visually you would not be able to determine super or not super.

The Punnet Square would look like this for a Mo to Mo pairing:

| |M |m |
|M|MM|Mm|
|m|Mm|mm|


Sorry for the ugly square...it gets the point across at least.

MM = super mosaic (occurs 25% of the time)
Mm = mosaic (occurs 50% of the time)
mm = normal color (occurs 25% of the time)

Mosaic can already appear in so many different forms, my best guess is there would be no visual indicator as to whether the glider was a super mosaic or not. But you could sell the babies as possible super mosaic. With both mosaics & WF, I believe either you have the gene or you don't. Regardless of what generation the glider is, it's only going to throw a Mo or a WF 50% of the time if it's paired with a normal glider (unless it's a super Mo or super WF). Statistically this is just how it works. It's like flipping a coin. Let's say you're pairing a super to a normal. That just means that the coin has heads on both sides. If you're pairing a WF or a mo to a normal, the coin is a regular coin. You're going to get heads 50% of the time. If you flip heads more often, you just got lucky. At best, with the higher generations, you see some color differences in the babies - for example, high gen WF tend to be lighter in color than low-gen WF.

Misty


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