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Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with my #835824
09/09/09 11:23 PM
09/09/09 11:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Kansas
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LSardou Offline OP
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See Part 3 here

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with my [Re: LSardou] #835873
09/10/09 12:47 AM
09/10/09 12:47 AM

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I think no matter what diet you feed.. HPW, BML, P's whatever.. you should have your glider blood routinely done and include checking CA:PH ratios.. I fed HPW for many years and slowly started switching to what I fed now and have for 6 months. I wish I had done blood work prior to changing their diet but I didnt.. it just evolved into my diet now. I have gotten their level checked now and will continue to.
I believe Nicole had several factors leading to this but diet is the first place to start making them healthy again.

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #835916
09/10/09 06:49 AM
09/10/09 06:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
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Nicole my heart goes out to you. hug2 I hope your little ones get better soon.


Dale
Mom of 3 great boys.
Dog: Kobi 7
Dog: Shady 7
Sugar Gliders: Sally :bb: Jack :bb: Dakota :wfb:

:rbridge: Glide free Razzle :bb: and Kiwi :wfb:

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: pbear3s] #836178
09/10/09 03:24 PM
09/10/09 03:24 PM
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USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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With doing blood work on gliders, should there be a fasting period?

Does the calcium and phosphorus levels remain stable or go up and down in the blood?

Such as, a diabetic. Blood sugar can go up or down in minutes, hours, it changes constantly whether a person has diabetes or not. With a diabetic, when the blood sugar is out of control, ALL of the organs start to suffer which in a matter of time (days, week) the blood work will show just about everything is imbalanced. Liver shows toxicity, kidneys show protein and ketones, heart rate changes and can mimic arithmia, heart murmur and even heart attack.

How long does it take for calcium in a glider to go up or down?

In humans, it can change rapidly depending on infection, excersize, DEhydration or any other illness.

We need to know more answers as to how this works before the actual diets themselves can come into play.

EDIT TO ADD: I went down fast almost 10 years ago, I went into a coma, was jaundiced (didn't realize it) and my liver was failing. My kidneys were shutting down, I almost went into cardiac arrest. ALL of my bloodwork was completely out of whack. My family was told I might not make it through the night.

Three days later...all was back to normal.

Nicole, it's possible your gliders bloodwork went out of whack due to an underlying illness or stress.

Stress alone will cause OUR blood (bodies) to go way off kilter.

Many medications can cause this too.

Last edited by SugarBlossoms; 09/10/09 03:44 PM.

Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: SugarBlossoms] #836212
09/10/09 04:32 PM
09/10/09 04:32 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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No, they don't need any fasting. Just feed them what you'd normally feed them.

I don't know the answers to the other questions. You'd have to ask a vet to find out.

I think it'd be a bit weird for all 3 gliders' bloodwork to be outta whack due to stress. They were tested on 2 different days. There COULD be an underlying issue, but my vet doesn't think that's the problem. I've called Dr. Bradley's office, but she still hasn't called back. I'm waiting to be able to ask her if she thinks there could be anything underlying causing the problems and, if so, what is it.

The only meds ALL the gliders were on was the Panacur and that was quite a while ago. Also, Arby and Leda got sick BEFORE being treated with Panacur(or any other meds). The only one who got sick AFTER the meds were given was Rosa, but her symptoms were the same as Arby, so I think that what they have is one and the same and not from any meds.

I've changed ALL of their food(including buying new veggies and fruits. The frozen veggies I use in their mix are even from a different company). So, if it's food-related, then they should start showing improvement. The vet's notes say that she wants to retest Leda in a couple of weeks. So, we'll find out if she's improved at all by then.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Guerita135] #836218
09/10/09 04:56 PM
09/10/09 04:56 PM
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Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Here's Leda's Blood results:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/SCAN0051-2.jpg

I need to scan up Gollum and Arby's too. The vet didn't do a full blood panel on them(I didn't realize she wouldn't, otherwise I would have asked her to :\), only the cal/phos, but I'll post it anyways. wink

Last edited by Guerita135; 09/10/09 10:35 PM. Reason: had to remove med dosages from the paperwork

~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Guerita135] #836307
09/10/09 09:18 PM
09/10/09 09:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Northwest Missouri
Chronic Renal Failure.........Nicole, you absolutely NEED to have your gliders kidney function tested....I realise this is a link to CRF in cats but, symptoms are across the boards and they are the same in humans.......

http://www.hdw-inc.com/healthcrf.htm

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Chris_R] #836313
09/10/09 09:31 PM
09/10/09 09:31 PM

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Hey Chris.. What would cause CRF in her gliders?

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836318
09/10/09 09:39 PM
09/10/09 09:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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It could be any number of things....the most common reason in cats from my understanding is 1, age followed very closely by feeding a diet that is to rich in proteins and it can be caused by toxins.....

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Chris_R] #836331
09/10/09 10:15 PM
09/10/09 10:15 PM

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Depending on the type of kidney failure, causes other than those mentioned above can include: sepsis (caused by an overwhelming infection), certain medications, trauma/injury, diabetes and kidney stones/obstructions.

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836459
09/11/09 08:49 AM
09/11/09 08:49 AM
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Posts: 2,720
Perry, Iowa
josefine Offline
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iowa misty came up w/a chart of how much oxalates are in each of the foods we feed,so,if it isn't the hpw,could this be a factor?&,as i've stated before(the broken record statement form another post)candy otte has also been doing a real good job w/her diet ratio calculator,both her site & the sesg site have been trying different methods.
i know that you are sincerely trying to find the answers & i'm so sorry that all of this has taken so much time.just try to keep your chin up,we know you are doing the best you can,&no one can take that away from you.
josefine

this is reposted from when the post was put into a different part.just now had the time to write everything down,then retype it all.


Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: josefine] #836542
09/11/09 12:51 PM
09/11/09 12:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
anjill_tree Offline
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I don't see where lab shows renal failure, The BUN tells you if dehydrated.If BUN is high, that means dehydration. Your glider is not dehydrated, hence prob no acute or and definitely not chronic renal failure. Even Creatnine is normal. I too have One of Nicoles gliders, ( MICA ) He is healthy and doing great. he is eating REEPS wombaroo diet, and eating all his fruits and veggies.


Cathy Hart

Support Aspergers and Autism Research, help put the pieces together.
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Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: anjill_tree] #836572
09/11/09 02:26 PM
09/11/09 02:26 PM
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Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline
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Cathy where are you seeing normal Creatine? The level on Leda came back at 1.6 It should range from 0.3-0.5, that is stated on Nicoles paperwork & can be found on Merck too.

Where are you seeing that 1.6 is normal?


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Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Trigger] #836578
09/11/09 02:37 PM
09/11/09 02:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Northwest Missouri
1.6 is 3 to 4 times the normal range for creatinine...that along with the outrangeous phosphourus levels and the slight decrease in BUN...along with the symptoms that Nicoles gliders are experiencing is what lead me to post the link to the CRF for her to take to her vet....

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Trigger] #836587
09/11/09 02:49 PM
09/11/09 02:49 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Ohio
I just got off the phone with Dr. Bradley a little while ago...

She said that 1.6 is a normal CRE level for a dog/cat, but she's going to check her records and call me back to see what the levels are for a glider. She thinks that 1.6 might be about normal(which is why my vet didn't mention it).

The ALP, however, she said was WAAAYYYY too high and should be more in the 100-300 range.

As well, she said that she thinks there might be an error in the lab work because a glider with Phos levels over 20 should NOT be able to function normally and because the WLP levels are so high. So, she's going to see if she can find any other good glider vets within about an hour or so of me to see if I can get the bloodwork tested with them instead. I'm going to call my vet as well and speak with her about there being possible errors.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Guerita135] #836596
09/11/09 03:03 PM
09/11/09 03:03 PM

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Something I just read and wanted to share

Symptoms of Metabolic Bone Disease:
Activity levels decline, lethargy, sometimes a drop in appetite, , sometimes labored breathing, general body soreness - increasing in severity to seizures and or paralysis, then death if not treated. Symptoms are varied and can include: broken bones, fur loss or thinning, lack of appetite, lethargy, tooth problems, inability to crack nuts, weakness, seizures, paralysis, and eventually death. The very first symptom can vary. A formerly healthy animal can suddenly get a broken bone, have a sudden seizure, loss of appetite, become wobbly in the hind legs, or just seem tired or reluctant to climb. Probably the most common first symptoms are sudden seizures and paralysis of the lower body. Sometimes the animal in question will show symptoms, and then recover and seem perfectly normal. This can go on for weeks, months, or even years. In the later stages of the disease, your Chippie will have trouble using it's rear legs. It will not be the graceful animal that you are used to, flying about the cage. Instead it will be moving slower and noticeably awkwardly, especially the rear legs. If you have a Chippie that is usually out all the time, and it suddenly starts hiding all the time, and is lethargic when forced out of it's hide box, you should immediately begin treatment for MDB! The caretaker may not see the symptoms, or recognize what he or she is seeing until the symptoms become severe and your pet is near death. This suffering and anguish is very preventable, if one feeds a proper balanced diet including high calcium / low phosphorus foods.

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836601
09/11/09 03:12 PM
09/11/09 03:12 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Unfortunately, there are multiple things that have calcium-deficiency(and the things that go along with it: weakness, seizures, etc...) as one of the symptoms...UTIs, Kindey Failure, Giardia, MBD, etc...

Dr. Bradley said that the calcium-deficiency isn't the disease, it's just a symptom(or something along those lines, lol). We need to see the OTHER symptoms and figure out the big picture.

She said I should test some more gliders before assuming all the gliders have the same problem. Also, she thinks it might be a lab error, so I might have to find a different lab to do the analysis.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836605
09/11/09 03:16 PM
09/11/09 03:16 PM

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This is an excellent article!

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/mbd2.html

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836612
09/11/09 03:29 PM
09/11/09 03:29 PM

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Yes Nicole and I agree.. I had just never read before that it can go away like that.. most times you hear that it does NOT just stop like yours did.

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836618
09/11/09 03:38 PM
09/11/09 03:38 PM

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Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836632
09/11/09 03:59 PM
09/11/09 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Adri  Offline
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This is out of Merck Veterinary Handbook, maybe your vet would find it handy Nicole

Selected Hematologic and Serum Biochemical Values for Sugar Gliders

Last edited by Adri; 09/11/09 04:02 PM.

Adri

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Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Adri] #836640
09/11/09 04:32 PM
09/11/09 04:32 PM
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Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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I just went back and checked the Creatinine levels for dogs and they are NOWHERE near what you just stated. Here is what I found:

TABLE 7: Serum Biochemical Reference Ranges*


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Adri] #836686
09/11/09 06:17 PM
09/11/09 06:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Adri, maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it looks like that dog/cat levels are EXACTLY where Dr. Bradley said they would be...

Dog- 0.5-1.6
Cat- 0.5-1.9

1.6 is normal for a dog/cat.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Guerita135] #836711
09/11/09 07:07 PM
09/11/09 07:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Nicole I misread your post, I still think the charts could be very helpful since some labs don't usually do exotics.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Adri] #836757
09/11/09 08:23 PM
09/11/09 08:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Ohio
No problem. wink There are multiple things on the chart that look like "creatinine", so I figured you just got them mixed up, lol.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Adri] #836766
09/11/09 08:35 PM
09/11/09 08:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
anjill_tree Offline
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sorry I misread the creatnine, I thought is said .6 . Bifocal moment. I do not agree with routine blood work on gliders , since they require anesthesia to get it, which we all know is dangerous in itself. After reading all the posts again, it really does sound like diet related illness. Nicole, I hope your change will bring you good results. If you need help with aything, let me know.


Cathy Hart

Support Aspergers and Autism Research, help put the pieces together.
www.hartlandsugargliders.com
cathyhart2texas@yahoo.com
469-964-4152
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: anjill_tree] #836793
09/11/09 09:32 PM
09/11/09 09:32 PM

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Nicole, I was just looking at your lineages trying to make some connection and noticed that Gollum is Leda's son...hmmmmm

Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: ] #836830
09/11/09 10:40 PM
09/11/09 10:40 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
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Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
Nicole, I was just looking at your lineages trying to make some connection and noticed that Gollum is Leda's son...hmmmmm
... and Haley/Mickey's grandson (on his dad Milky Way's side). Have results come back on Haley yet?


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: nancy1202] #836837
09/11/09 10:59 PM
09/11/09 10:59 PM
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Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Ohio
Yeah, I didn't want to bring Gollum in Kris. I wanted to bring in Woodrow, but the vet said he was too young. She called me in the morning right before the appointment, so I had to rush and grab the first boy I could think of that wasn't overweight(I wasn't sure if that'd mess with the levels) and wasn't too young AND that ate all their food each night.

I didn't realize til afterwards what a dumb choice that was. tounge

I plan on taking more gliders for bloodwork though and will be taking unrelated gliders. Perhaps Sysko, Gil, Annie(WF girl from my non-breeding colony)... Perhaps I'll take in Delia or Violet as well once their joeys are weaned. All my other breeding girls have joeys IP or nursing.

Nancy, I PM-ed Cindy a while back to ask about Haley and to see if the vet thought her problem might be genetic, but I think she said that they thought it was from stress. Don't quote me though cause I have awful memory, lol. I'd asked her because I have Milky Way, Haley's son, and wanted to know if there was something I should be testing him for or what-not. I wonder if she had any bloodwork done...


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 4: There's something seriously wrong with [Re: Guerita135] #836899
09/12/09 01:35 AM
09/12/09 01:35 AM
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Posts: 5,363
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Ok
Haley's death was due to stress. When she died and was opened up all of the organs were in perfect shape. Cindy did not insist that the organs be tested because she was under such duress herself. She realized that a week after she had passed. I thought something was sent to Dr. Tristen but I was not sure. Cindy's vet didn't see anything abnormal when he opened her up. It is a shame though.
Haley's father, mother, and mate are still living. Leda is out of Sunny and Pixie. I still have Sunny and Pixie is still alive and healthy.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

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