I went out of town this weekend, leaving my gliders at home for my mom and brother to take care of. When I got back today, 2 of them were acting very funny. I knew something was definitely wrong so I brought them to the vet. They have a respiratory infection, so I have them on antibiotics now. But I still think something else may be wrong and I can't seem to find anything about it online. She is twitching and shaking. She also crabs when I put my hands near her (she was never really a crabber, I've handled her since she came out of the pouch). She is underweight as well. I know linking to youtube is against the rules, but I have no other way to show what she is doing. If you search "sick wfb sugar glider" on youtube, you will see my video (usernameanonymous is my user name). It shows her twitching and acting very oddly. She seemed to be losing control of her muscles before I brought her to the vet, but it hasn't gotten much better. She would fall flat on her face and her legs would stick out to the sides and shake for a while before she regained control enough to pick herself back up. She tried to eat a mealworm but couldn't even use her hands and mouth well enough to eat it, though she tried very hard. Please, if you have ANY insight, let me know ASAP.

She looks like she may be seizing, she may have vertigo as well. I would put her in a hospital cage immediately (i.e. small and one she can't climb in) so she can't fall and where you can set up an incubator type of situation to help her stay warm. Check her hydration (gently pinch up the skin on her shoulder blades and see if it stays up).

Seizures? Take them back to the vet or another vet ASAP. This is not good!

I'm not sure where you are in IL, there are some very knowledgeable vets that may be nearby - let us know and we can help you find someone for a second opinion if you decide to do so.

I live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. At the vets office they gave her 3 or 4 CC's of fluid sub-q. Are you sure these are seizures? She has been like this for a couple days now according to my dad. Would she have constant seizures like that? And she is not the only one. Now my other glider, gizmo, is doing it too (although not as badly as Sugar)

I live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. At the vets office they gave her 3 or 4 CC's of fluid sub-q. Are you sure these are seizures? She has been like this for a couple days now according to my dad. Would she have constant seizures like that? And she is not the only one. Now my other glider, gizmo, is doing it too (although not as badly as Sugar)--------(just reposting while logged in)

I'll get a carbon monoxide detector tonight. Nothing different over the weekend. Some more info that might help--I feed them the BML diet, although I feed them pelleted food instead of live insects. My bag of food ran out last month and i couldn't find the same brand of food. They don't like the new food I ordered. So I bought another brand. They won't touch that either. I've been feeding them eggwhites and just today, mealworms to make sure they got enough protein. Could this have anything to do with it? Also, I've heard about zinc poisoning a thousand times, but I can't seem to find the symptoms listed anywhere. Does anybody know?

And I don't think taking them back to the vet will help. I might try to find a new vet, but the one I went to is far away as it is :/. I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to find one close enough.

The vet said they might have to eventually take blood for tests, but she's using that as a last resort because supposedly the risk from taking the blood and the stress could easily lead to death (because they are already sick). I feel like I am running out of time though. :/

hope she is ok! it happened to my daughters hamster cause it was dehdrated

I watched them drink quite a bit of water. And like I said they were given fluids at the vet. I wondered if possibly the water bottle had been contaminated (it's very hard to clean the inside, you can never be sure if it is really clean). So I threw it out and got a new one. My other glider Gizmo was shaking some before, but now she is getting worse. She is shaking more rapidly than Sugar, although Gizmo seems to be walking and climbing ok. PLEASE if anybody has ANY ideas throw them at me. I also moved them into their old cage. It is smaller and I don't think that has anything to do with it, but I'm getting desperate.

Do you know that they ate anything or much of anything over the weekend while you were gone? Have you seen them go to the bathroom? Can you offer some of their BML as a licky treat, or through a needleless syringe? They don't need their hands if you feed them this way.

Line the bottom of your smaller cage with fleece so if either of them falls, there is cushioning.

Definitely take them back to the vet. If you are not comfortable with the one who saw them earlier, find another. I don't know what caused it, but this behavior is not normal, and especially if it has not improved, they need to be seen again.

I know this is a long shot and I dont know if its possible in Gliders, but my chameleon did this when it has MBD (metabolic bone disease), Lack of calcium.

I just watched the video. Looks neurological to me. Someone mentioned the other day that theirs fell off the wheel and was acting funky. Do you think there could have been an accident.. Moreso, did the people watching them let them out and maybe, drop them or step on them without knowing?

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:IwMWrlkpR10J:www.eastsideah.com/img/pet_health/pdf/exotics/sugar-gliders-diseases.pdf+sugar+glider+trembling&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNGzs4trzlsHdygSTG5hfn_cvBc5iw

read up on this, it might help. it talks about trembling and pacing, also a few other things

also, could be they are seizing, from what, i have no clue, but i would take them to the emergency vet ASAP!
if it's getting worse they may not have much longer. their little bodies can only take so much!!

Did your chameleon shake like this?

My chameleon wouldnt use her back legs but yes, she looked like she was having a seizure but thats from months of calcium deficiency before she came to me that I couldnt reverse. I dont know if thats capable to that extend in gliders. every animal processes calcium differently.

Like I said though, Im thinking something happened..either a hard fall or knocked around somehow..Ask your brother and mom if they at any time handled them..maybe they got scared (maybe one nipped or jumped) and they accidentally dropped it or flung it as a natural reaction? Im not placing blame by any means but there is something majorly wrong.

I think it must be calcium deficiency. If something had happened, my little brother would tell me. Falling in the cage is a possibility, but the chances that 2 of my gliders fell in the same way on the same day is too big of a stretch. Sugar is losing use of her back legs now. I've given them some yogurt with Rep-Cal calcium supplement until I can go to the vet tomorrow to pick up the calcium injections. Gizmo ate the yogurt like it was her last meal, but Sugar ate it drop by drop. I hope it helps. Thanks a lot ninjajack for the info. And thanks to you too kara, that site you pasted is the first time I've seen trembling as a symptom of calcium deficiency and that's the first thing that has stood out.

Thanks a lot for all your help everybody.

If a glider has a bacterial or parasite infection, they could rapidly loose calcium and develope metabolic bone disease (also known as hind leg paralysis) in a very short period of time (days). Unless the cause is treated, the symptoms won't clear up. It sounds like this is what is going on with them.

Fecal and urine tests need to be done to check for bacteria or parasites. Oral calcium suppliment as well as appropriate antibiotics are most likely the treatment needed.

Im just glad that I might have been able to shed some light on the issue. I really hope you can get it under wraps and save your babies. PLEASE keep us updated!

I also agree with theresa, bacterial infections, come on suddenly, and hit hard..

also something to keep in mind is a possible toxin of some sort.

siezures that come on out of the blue like that is generally toxins, or bacterial/parasites

Yes, bacteria or parasites causing the HLP makes perfect sense. I've read up on it and everything points straight to that. THANK YOU TERESA. I took them to another vet (who also admittedly didn't know all that much about sugar gliders and hadn't seen one in about 10 years) and he didn't know quite what was going on. I told him about the bacterial infection/parasite condition, and gave me another antibiotic and said he would take blood later if they don't get better. For now, they're on amoxicillin, ciprofloxacin, and a calcium supplement. They aren't showing improvement since yesterday, but they haven't gotten worse.

Where are you located in IL. Dr. Ness treats sugar gliders and has raised them in the past. What vet did you take them to?

Yes, they did move into a new cage but that was about a month ago. When they got sick I moved them back into their old cage just in case. They had a lot of nasal discharge too (snot) so I gave them a nebulizer treatment with saline to clear them out a little. The old cage isn't making it better though. Where is Dr. Ness? I'd drive 2 hours if it meant going to a vet that truly knew about sugar gliders. It seems that the vets around me treat sugar gliders but don't know very much about the common diseases and conditions (such as HLP). None of them REALLY knew how to handle them. My 8 year old brother handles ours better than they could. One of the vets admitted he hadn't even seen a glider in over 10 years, but he listened to everything I told him and he prescribed meds accordingly. I'm just afraid that what I tell him could possibly be wrong. I'd like to see a vet that has actually seen this condition before. A vet that knows exactly what's wrong and exactly what to do. If Dr. Ness has raised gliders of his own, I would trust him. And I would drive 2 hours to get to a vet a trusted completely.

I'm not from the IL area, but from looking at the vet database I'd say this is probably the Dr. Ness mentioned. If so, he is in Lisle, IL. Here's the link:

Ness Exotic Wellness Center

I hope you can get some answers soon and get your babies on the road to recovery.

I am going to try to wait it out another couple of days to see if their condition improves. They haven't gotten much better yet. It seems to be up and down, they look a little better than a little worse a few hours later. Overall, they are about the same as they were when I first took them for treatment. If they don't get better I will probably take them to Dr. Ness early Friday. Is Dr. Ness's practice very expensive? My funds are dwindling...

I agree and again I urge you to get them both to the vet ASAP!
I am not trying to sound mean but everyone here has told you they NEED to see a vet NOW and its been over 24 hours since you posted... please understand that gliders are so small and hide thier illness and symptoms so well that by the time you see it this bad, it is really bad!

I hope they get better but they really need to have medical attention!

If you wait a couple more days, your gliders most likely will die. I don't want you to have regret and guilt because you let dwindling funds keep you from getting the medical help they obviously and desperately need.

Borrow money, sell something, let a bill slide, use Care Credit, beg for help from friends/relatives and pay them back later but please, don't wait any longer.

Tomorrow is another day in which to rebuild your vet funds and this thread How do I raise a vet fund? has shown many, many ways of doing just that. Your babies can't take care of themselves. You have to do it for them

I am soooo very sorry for your little babies. I do hope you can get them to Dr. Ness really soon - he is used by a few of our members here and comes highly recommended.

Also, I couldn't help but notice the cage they are in... Did you by chance purchase your gliders from Pocket Pets? If so did you have a initial wellness done with a fecal float and smear to detect parasites? They very well could be carrying parasites as many gliders from them do.

Maybe the vet can set up a pyament plan for you since its an emergency. A lot of vets, if they still have the compassion, will allow it to go that route in order to help the animal. Plead with him!

If it comes right down to it, take them in, have them seen and treated THEN work out a payment plan. No, it's not exactly on the up-and-up and probably won't make the vet happy, BUT it gets your gliders treated, probably save their lives and right now, that's the important thing.

I want to point out that this member HAS taken her gliders to two different vets already. They are on antibiotics and oral calcium supplements prescribed by the 2nd vet

I have contacted Dr.Ness and told him everything that is going on to see if he can help you or possibly work out payment plans.

How are your gliders today? Any news?

Yes thank you Suz, I HAVE taken them to TWO different vets already. The minute I walked into my house monday morning and saw them, I called the vet. I didn't mean to say that I'm waiting to take them in for the first time. I just can't afford to take them to a different vet every day just to have the vet tell me they've never seen this condition before (or that they CAN work on gliders but almost never encounter them). I love my gliders as if they were my own children and I would jump through hoops and bend over backward and walk on hot coals if I KNEW it would help them. You guys make me sound like a monster who refuses to get help

Yes, I did get my first glider from PerfectPocketPets, before I knew better. This was 2 years ago and Gizmo has been the best pet I have ever had. Since then I have written emails and posted on webpages warning people about this company and their crimes against gliders. http://www.glideruniversity.org/?p=37 (I wrote the post at the bottom of the page about a year ago) She has been very healthy for over 2 years now. My other glider I got from a very good breeder in St. Louis.

Please, if you have any compassion for sugar gliders DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM PERFECTPOCKETPETS!!

Kara, what did he say about a payment plan? Maybe I could call and have him look at the video I have on YouTube to see if he recognizes anything before I take them in, even if I still have to pay for the call. (Every vet I have been to so far has required immediate payment)

Please, no one had intentions of making you feel this way. We all can see how much you care about your gliders and will do whatever necessary to provide the best care possible.

I am sorry if I came off sounding that way in my post. My only concern was when you said you were going to 'wait a couple of days to see if they would start acting better', and based on your evaluation of saying that 'they were NOT improving' concerned me is all.

Again, I am sorry, and I do hope that they will start feeling better soon.

Any update? How are they acting today? Are the back legs causing issues? Did you research HLP?

my heart dropped when i saw the video of your baby...began to tear a bit b/c no-1 wants to see their gliders acting like that...it really worried me and hope your little one will recover from this. you're their voice, don't give up hope.

i think sugar is dying...

dr ness was booked. his office recommended another animal hospital. took them this afternoon.

Noooooooo............

Your amazing little gliders on Youtube are a big part of what has taken my wife and I down the path of researching them. Thats how I ended up on GC in the first place a few weeks / month ago. Sending prayers and hugs your way.

Did the latest vet have any new insights?

I am so sorry to hear about your little gliders.
Something I thought of is the cage, did they chew on the bars/wire of the cage and it had lead paint on it?
Just a thought. I hope you find the answers fast so that they can be saved.
Please keep us updated on the progress and what the vet finds out if they do draw blood ok.
God bless you and your little ones.
Karen

Any news????

she's still alive but she can't really walk.

Did you get them in to see the other vet this afternoon? I am curious to what they told you. Your babies will be in my thoughts!!

Sending many prayers your way!!!

Took them to a vet on monday, another vet on tuesday, and a third vet on thursday. The vet on thursday had sugar gliders of her own and saw sugar gliders regularly. I was also curious, she said the BML diet is no good. It seems to me like most breeders these days use that diet. Do any of you breeders have any problems with it? The breeder I got my WFB Sparky from used it and she had a couple of 9 or 10 year old breeding pairs (which to my understanding is old for a breeding pair?). This vet said the internet is mostly wrong, that her gliders eat 60 or 70% insects, then fruits. Her gliders were supposedly very healthy, one being 15 years old. But that ratio goes against every website, book, and article that I've ever read. She seemed to blame the HLP on the BML diet...

This vet is experienced with sugar gliders??? I have a very bad feeling about her if she feeds her own gliders that way, puts down the BML diet and says everything on the internet is bad. She reminds me of a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets vet. What's her name?

I feel the information she gave you is very wrong. If you're feeding BML and mixing it per instructions, it won't cause HLP.

so the diet is what is making them do this? why isn't everyone else's gliders do this then? i have my baby on the BML diet, his breeder said she hasnt ever had any touble out of her own or her joeys.

if this isnt the cause what all did you find out it waS?

I think that it could possibly be caused by only my male eating the BML (he is very healthy) and the females not eating it. I see them licking it sometimes but overnight, I don't know. And every breeder I have talked to uses BML with great results. I don't want to assume I know more than a vet who's gone to vet school but...can 98% of glider breeders who uses the internet be wrong? I've read books that recommend it too. Books written by breeders with 20 years experience.

vets may have book knowledge and years of veterinary practice but GC members have the cumulative experience of each others glider experiences, as well as their own. Not just now and then experiences, but day in and day out, every single day. This includes diets. As you say, how can so many glider owners and breeders be wrong about BML, when so many gliders have thrived and are still thriving on it?

If you're having trouble with yours eating it, try the Priscilla Price diet or HPW diet.

She's still alive. Not getting better as far as walking and eating etc, but not getting worse.

I don't think that the BML is to blame..
Granted I am just a newb as far as gliders go, but I have seen a real improvement in my gliders sense switching them to BML. Now they just seem to have more life in them, with fluffier tails....


Anyway - I just wanted to say that, and that I am sorry for your gliders being ill. I hope that they recover soon, it must be awful seeing them that way.

Best wishes to you and your gliders.

Has she been able to eat on her own? Have you seen her actually eat? She may need to be hand fed. I still have your babies in my thoughts!!! I really hope things begin to turn around for you! I do suggest getting in contact with SugareeErin and see if maybe she can even help with getting them in to see Dr. Ness.

I used to have my gliders on a diet similar to the one that the latest vet you saw feeds her gliders - difference being that mine were fed 33% protein, 33% fruits & 33% veggies each night along with Gliderade, with calcium sprinkled on the protein 3x per week. When my Pika came down with HLP it was because she was eating only the protein and the Gliderade, eschewing the fruits & veggies. This high protein intake caused her body to be unable to metabolize the calcium properly so that it stayed in her bloodstream instead of getting to her bones where it is essential. Blood tests showed that the calcium level within her bloodstream was extremely high. Xrays showed deterioration of her bones THAT is when I switched my gliders over to BML - and they've all had well-balanced calcium & phosphorus ratios ever since. EXPERIENCE is what led to my article about Hind Leg Paralysis - which I know you have already read and brought along with you to the 2nd vet. I agree that it's time to get in touch with SugareeErin and consult with Dr. Ness about your glider's condition. I'm glad she is still alive and fighting, but I'm very worried about her at this point Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out Also, any vet you take your gliders to may call my vet for a phone consultation about treatment - she's the one who told me about the elevated protein intake being the culprit of Pika's HLP: Dr. Kristen West @ Wickliffe Animal Hospital - 440-516-0000.

I started giving my gliders bml then switched to hpw a few months after, not that i had any bad experience with bml, but i was told hpw has great, healthy outcomes and faster to prepare. but i still feel bml has a lot of great healthy ingredients that my vet recommends such as the rep-cal powders for calcium and multi-vitamins, plus the wheat germ and baby rice are healthy....not something that hpw uses (does any one know if some the bml ingredients i mentioned are supplemented in the hpw diet?)

You may want to feed her yourself or separate them when it's time to eat, to make sure she gets her recommended dose of the daily diet.

bksmu, how far are you to Louisville, Ky?

GREAT NEWS!!! Gizmo is back to normal and Sugar is doing MUCH MUCH better. She's only at about 80% of walking/climbing ability, but she's 10x better than she was.

I live in the suburbs of chicago by the way.

Thank you so much for an update! Please do keep as posted on your little ones.

I AM SO GLAD!!! I was so worried for you and your little ones! How are they BOTH doing today? Please keep us updated!!

Sparky started shaking and having seizures 3 days go. (Sugar and Gizmo were the ones who were sick before) I gave him a calcium+D supplement. I was out of the drug Calcitriol, but I figured the supplement would be enough since I knew what to do right away before he got worse (with Sugar and Gizmo, they were shaking for a whole week before I got the medicine). I gave it to him Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. But he didn't get better, only worse. Today I decided I had to go get more of the drug because he wasn't getting better. On the way to the vet, he stopped breathing. RIP Sparky.

I am so sorry that you lost little Sparky, please have them do a necropsy on him. The result could help your other gliders. Plus we have a necropsy forum, one of the gals is collecting necropsy results for a study, I believe.

Please accept my condolences on the loss of little Sparky.

Glide Free Sparky

I am so sorry for your loss of Sparky. How heart breaking
Glide free little Sparkey

I definitely would have had a necropsy done, but he is already buried in my glider graveyard.

I am so very sorry for your loss. I pray your other kids fair well in all this. After losing my baby this morning I can understand your pain all too well.

I'm so sorry to hear this! You did all you could do.

Glide free, little Sparky over the Rainbow Bridge. You will be forever loved, forever remembered, forever missed.

I have more bad news...Sugar has begin shaking a little bit again. The vet I went to said too much calcium is even worse for them than not enough. So once Sugar was strong enough to start eating the BML again, I started giving her the calcium+D supplement less and less. (she HATES it anyway). She has started shaking a tiny bit again (not full-blown seizure-like shaking, but shaking nonetheless.) I'm not sure which of my girls is eating the BML, it might be just Gizmo. I have no real way of knowing who is eating what, short of sitting outside the cage for 24 hours. Do any of you have any ideas on what to do? Should I keep giving her calcium? Is there an easier way to give it to her, such as mixing it in with yogurt? Any ideas at all on what to do, please let me know. I can't handle losing another glider...

I think putting the calcium in yogurt is a great idea! You could also try applesause. Hopefully she will like the yoguet and that will cover the taste of the calcium up enough she will take it all down. Tapering her off it seems like a good plan so there is no shock to her system. As for whether or no to continue the calcium I would say just follow the directions given to you by your vet.

u need to have a fecal culture and sensitivity done if the meds dont work and no improvement in 3 to 4 days they are not working and you need to change meds. till you find the right one. an easy way of giveing meds is put them in a little hawaiin delight or something they like. but time is running out for these guys you need to take them to dr ness as i hear he is great with gliders and let him decide what the next cours e is or you will lose them. i dont think pushing all that calcium is the answer. as a bacterial problem will deplete them of calcium and hlp can come up as a secondary issue due to the bacteria in them. since they have meds in them already the bacterial fecal c and s wont show anything so at this point i would take the drive tell dr ness what meds you are using and them change them. are you sure they are getting all the meds or are they being spit out that could be another possibility.

have u run a snap test giardia is another posssibility

Has she had bloodwork done on her to check her calcium ratios?

I would get a second opinion from another exotic vet in this case. Something else may be going on that is being missed.