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Mature males will rape immature females #917523
03/10/10 04:21 PM
03/10/10 04:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
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sugarlope Offline OP
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sugarlope  Offline OP
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in my happy place
When I started breeding, there were many different ideas about breeding than there are today. And I am sure that in a decade things we say today may not always be 'truths' then either.

For instance, when I started breeding, I never heard the word 'rape' used in reference to gliders. It was common practice to introduce joeys at a young age and let them grow up together and breed when they were ready. If you introduced a joey female to an older male, it was suggested that she be separated, when she reached 5-6 months OOP, so she did not breed too early. (Typically, she would be separated until she was about 8 months OOP).

The word 'rape' was not thrown around until some years later, and I wonder if females breeding young got confused with the idea of violent, forced mating. dunno

One of my girls, Lili was a young female introduced to an older male, her mate, Pascal. I decided to separate her when she was 4 months OOP (to be on the safe side), but she already had a lump in her pouch, so she wasn't separated. The timing of her joey coming OOP, put Lili at about 3 1/2 months OOP when she became pregnant. Lili and Pascal never fought, never even made a peep, and were always very affectionate with each other. She was a very young mother, and it ended up that I found out her entire line matured earlier than most (including her mother, brothers and her joeys).

I know many people 'humanize' their animals - I am certainly one on of them, and 'talk' for my animals often. But I also know that it's me and not them and that I am projecting my human emotions on them. Don't confuse this for meaning that I don't think they have feelings, I absolutely believe that they do, but I do not always think they feel the things we feel the same way we feel them.

I do think that biology and instinct strongly directs their behaviors, and when a female goes into heat, a male will try to mate her. I do not think that a male will 'sexually assault' (because that is what the word rape means) a young female just because he is bigger and stronger. Her heat cycle makes him interested and with some gliders, mating is rough (even fully mature adults give each other mating wounds, which I also do not think is 'rape').

If you pay close attention to an adult mating pair, the male often loses almost all interest in anything else (including eating) when a female is in heat around him, because it is a biological and instinctually driven response.

I know there are a host of opinions on this, so this is mine, let's hear yours. smile


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: victoriarose1982] #917552
03/10/10 05:26 PM
03/10/10 05:26 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
kentucky
ssdreamsicles Offline
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ssdreamsicles  Offline
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kentucky
I would not intro a young female to a much older male. I dont know that he will tech "rape" her but his drive will be much more and i would rather wait some time to let the female mature before she has to come face to face with breeding. I will however pair 2 same age joeys or a older female with a younger male. I have never had any of this result in "rape" that i have seen. If she does not want to breed she will let him know. I have seen first hand when one of my girls does not want to mate and lets him know. I am not saying a female can not be harmed by a male but putting a much younger female with a older male. Mating wounds happen in what ever age u pair them. I have however had a female start young in breeding. I paired these same age joeys together and they loved each other and still do. They dropped there first set in pouch when she was just about 6 months i think. They are wonderful parents and except for one time they always take a break between joeys and have never had any probs. I have also introed a older female to a young male and let me tell you he had her preggers with in a week.

Im not saying one way is better then the other but i feel ok with pairing same age and a male being a few months younger then the female. I do not think they tech "rape" but i do feel the female should be a bit more mature so she does not get preggers to early.

Rachel,

I have seen that all my cages seem to be affected when one female is in heat. Im not sure that this is the case for all just in my house. Mainly i may see males marking more or eating a bit less.

Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: ssdreamsicles] #917949
03/11/10 01:37 PM
03/11/10 01:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
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sugarlope Offline OP
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sugarlope  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
I went ahead and split the thread to stay on the topic of rape.

Thank you, Melissa, and I agree with you. I should have said so earlier, I don't think I would put a young female with an older intact male again - not unless she was already 8-10 months OOP, at least.

Now some of you may be thinking, well then - the point is moot. But my question was specifically about the act of rape in gliders, because I repeatedly see this as the reason you should never introduce a young female in with an older male. If rape occurred in this scenario, then you could not even introduce a young female to a neutered male in many cases.


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: sugarlope] #917961
03/11/10 02:02 PM
03/11/10 02:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
I've heard of someone that introduced a young female- about 8 weeks, to an intact male that was over a year old.

He actually killed her trying to mate with her.

Personally, I'd either introduce a male and a female together as immature joeys and let them grow together, or wait until the female was at least 8 months OOP before introducing her to an older male.


Allie
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #918234
03/12/10 05:58 AM
03/12/10 05:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
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Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I don't know when (or why) the concept of "rape" in regards to gliders was started, but I don't believe that it actually occurs. Males WILL instinctively try to mate with a female in heat. Upon RARE occasion I have heard of a male attempting to mount a female that is not in heat, but it is extremely rare.
I do believe that young females should not be introduced to older, fully mature males due to the fact that the mere size ratio between the two could cause issues during mating. But rape? No, I don't believe it happens in gliders shakehead


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


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Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #918400
03/12/10 03:56 PM
03/12/10 03:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
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sugarlope Offline OP
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sugarlope  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
I've heard of someone that introduced a young female- about 8 weeks, to an intact male that was over a year old.

He actually killed her trying to mate with her.

I don't know the situation here, of course, and I certainly don't mean this to sound insensitive, but it is not likely that an 8 wk old female was in heat. She may have been killed because he felt his territory was being threatened. dunno Without proper intros (and even with them sometimes) some gliders do not get along and will kill the smaller/weaker glider. frown


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: sugarlope] #918411
03/12/10 04:14 PM
03/12/10 04:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: sugarlope
Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
I've heard of someone that introduced a young female- about 8 weeks, to an intact male that was over a year old.

He actually killed her trying to mate with her.

I don't know the situation here, of course, and I certainly don't mean this to sound insensitive, but it is not likely that an 8 wk old female was in heat. She may have been killed because he felt his territory was being threatened. dunno Without proper intros (and even with them sometimes) some gliders do not get along and will kill the smaller/weaker glider. frown
At the risk of sounding doubly insensitive... I also doubt that the male attempted to mate with such a young joey. Many times, people see one glider on top of the other glider when they are establishing dominance and assume that it is a mating attempt. Although the posture appears the same, in actuality, the male's penis does not become engorged, does not protract and actual penetration is not attempted.
I am very sorry that this happened to someone, but again, I have to agree with Gretchen that they probably did not introduce the gliders to each other properly and that the dominance fight went bad - which is why proper introductions are so strongly stressed.


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


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Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: sugarglidersuz] #918608
03/13/10 02:53 AM
03/13/10 02:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
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Glider_Invasion Offline
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Glider_Invasion  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
Do you think the word was implied, to deter ppl from breeding females that are to young to be breed?
If they are still juveniles, they are still growing & developing themselves.
I know of a 8 mo. old mom, who had to have her joeys pulled, due to UTI. vet told owner, the joeys were pulling to much out of mommy because she was still developing herself. Now, being sick, resistance is low and nursing 2 babies! wow!
I agree with the vet, she needs the calcium & nutrients for 'her' bones & such to develop, before babies take their toll.
Being breed so young, while she is still developing, sounds like rape.
So I guess, to me, the word rape makes sense if the female is under a year. I still consider that a juvie. Thus, still a little girl that is not emotionally or physically ready for breeding, birthing, nursing and rearing children, while still a child herself.
RAPE or not, we can call it what we want. But it's up to us, (their owners), to allow the little girls to be little girls, then to grow up, before forcing them to be moms for the rest of their lives. We owe them that, for all they give us. JMO!


Diane

http://www.glider-invasion.webs.com

Happy & Educated Parents, have Happy & Healthy Suggies.
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: Glider_Invasion] #918617
03/13/10 06:02 AM
03/13/10 06:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I agree with you that females should not be allowed to breed at under 10-12 months out of pouch. However, it is technically NOT rape for it to occur. The fact that the female is underdeveloped does not make her an unwilling participant in mating - which is when rape occurs.
It is quite true that breeding a female too young can cause major health issues for her because she is still growing and developing. Calcium insufficiency (hypocalcemia) is a very large risk. Lack of adequate milk production is another risk that affects both the mother and her joeys. Higher risk of infection is also present because her body is so busy supplying the joey(s) with its needs that the immune system is lower. All that and more are the risks involved in breeding gliders too young.
But I disagree with using scare tactics to deter people from doing something wrong. Tell them the truth - the actual risks involved - and allow them to make the right decision based on truth, not fear.


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: Glider_Invasion] #918892
03/13/10 06:05 PM
03/13/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
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sugarlope Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Glider_Invasion
RAPE or not, we can call it what we want. But it's up to us, (their owners), to allow the little girls to be little girls, then to grow up, before forcing them to be moms for the rest of their lives. We owe them that, for all they give us. JMO!


While I also do not think gliders should be bred early, this is kind of what I am talking about - us putting our own very strong feelings on the gliders shoulders to carry as their own.

I agree with Suz, there are valid reasons for saying that joeys under a certain age should not be bred. But 'rape' is not one of them. If someone chooses to view this as rape because THEY think it is a wrong choice, that is your choice. But part of my concern with this phrasing is how it is used as a scare tactic and to berate new owners/breeders. If there are valid reasons for not breeding a young female (and as I said, I think there are) shouldn't the proper argument be made rather than just throwing out the word rape and hoping it scares the new person into something that they still aren't fully understanding?

And not all young mothers make bad first time mothers either, to be honest. NO...I am not saying that we should go back to breeding young, not remotely, but I also know of a lot of fully mature adult gliders that are not able to raise their young properly either, for the same reasons. Are we to start saying that anytime the situation may not be perfect for reproduction, the female is getting raped, because it wasn't an optimal mating? What about adult females with mating injuries?

BUT, this is precisely why this section exists, to hash out the things many have come to believe as true and see both sides of the argument. thumb

Last edited by sugarlope; 03/13/10 06:06 PM.

~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: sugarlope] #923599
03/27/10 12:40 AM
03/27/10 12:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 190
TAYLOR,MI
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SSSteven Offline
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SSSteven  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 190
TAYLOR,MI
I agree with most opinions on this. However doesnt nature know best and this will happen in the wild and the gliders prosper there? Im not saying its right or good or id even allow it. I just dont think its rape as much as nature doing what it does.
I mean at what point do we make up rules and say here this is best and at what point do natural processes occur?


Chell & Jeremy

Parents to
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Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: SSSteven] #923615
03/27/10 03:44 AM
03/27/10 03:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
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Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
agreed! keeping in mind though that in NATURE if the female wasnt "in the mood" there is plenty of room to get away, but in a cage...where can she go to get away? so a cage is not the natural. please remember that. she can be cornered and be an unwilling partner. or a fight can happen where someone will get hurt.
people want to say "let nature take its course" but a cage is not nature. so since we have taken them from nature we need to be responsible and copy what nature would allow. A female unwilling to breed due to age or any other reason should be allowed to not breed. since how are we to KNOW I feel it is a good idea to allow little girls to grow up alittle and retire older ones.
I know from breeding some other animals that if bred too young it MAY shorten life spans also.


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Re: Mature males will rape immature females [Re: JillMarie] #924196
03/28/10 11:50 PM
03/28/10 11:50 PM

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Ok, here is my opinion on this topic:
I believe that the term "rape" was brought into the glider world as an attempt to humanize these guys. If a girl of 14 or 15 were to get pregnant by an older man-say 20 years old-that would be considered rape even if she had been willing or even if she had seduced him. Our system has done this to protect these children from losing their childhood. However, sugar gliders are not like us. If a female goes into heat, it is the male's responsibility to mate with her to protect the species. There is no "right" or "wrong" in this case--just instinct of what has to happen to survive. It is up to us as owners to make the decision as to whether or not the female is ready, and I agree that a female should be allowed to mature before mating. I don't agree to the term "rape" being used in reference to gliders. I much rather the term that ssdreamsicles used for this situation. "Young mother" fits the glider world much better.


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