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Worse not better, not happy #967126
07/01/10 01:24 AM
07/01/10 01:24 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Ikeda Offline OP
Glider Explorer
Ikeda  Offline OP
Glider Explorer

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
All,

I've got an issue and I'm not sure how to deal with it. Since we've gotten the pouch for Rocky's cage he has become a little pouch-body. Normally I wouldn't complain but I've been home now from roughly 1230-130AM and this little bugger hasn't come out of his pouch. Not only this but when I walk over to the cage and talk to him he crabs. I put some yogurt onto my finger and called to him, his head came up, and he crabbed like [censored] CRAZY. He then licked the yogurt OFF my finger and KEPT crabbing at me. I finally opened the cage up, stuck my hand in the pouch and used the other hand to hold the other side of the pouch. After a seconds of this he calmed down and allowed me to pet him. You can't say I startled him because I called to him and HE came up to see ME. (on another note: apparently he knows his name now. I've noticed his ears twitch when I say it so he recognized it, tonight was the first time to get a response from it)

I've noticed this behavior has gotten steadily worse since we've put him in this pouch and I'm about ready to pull it out and put his piece of fleece back in there. He's just so darned moody about it. I managed to coax him onto my hand the other night so I thought I was moving in the right direction but at the same time this is getting FAR worse.

Is this what is considered pouch protective? I've been trying to be VERY good about talking to him in the pouch and putting my hand in there. Just lately he's getting moodier about it. I also don't see why it's 130 am and he's not running around like a crazy person in his cage but even I have lazy days.

Is Bourbon still around? I read a BUNCH of threads about pouch protective-ness but I'm unsure. I can't PM Bourbon but I figure others in the community might have a better grasp on me than this.

I need to nip the behavior in the butt before Winkle comes to live. I have about a month til I pick her up and another month of separation before intro's but that's it.

Any help ya'll could offer would be appreciated.

P.S. I'm serious about pulling the pouch. Seemed like when he could come out and see us from under the fleece he was so much nicer overall.


:grey: Rocky and Winkle's Dad :wfb:

Rocky: (recognizing Boris's voice) That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?

Bullwinkle: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967131
07/01/10 01:32 AM
07/01/10 01:32 AM

N
natlovesroo
Unregistered
natlovesroo
Unregistered
N



well i have just recently got my glider as well.. it sounds to me like he is just scared and still trying to get used to his new surroundings....if you read a lot of the bonding posts they ALL say that you have to go at your gliders pace... sounds like he is just not ready yet... what i would suggest doing is just putting your hand in the pouch and just leaving it, then once he calms down with your hand in the pouch then start to pet him even IF he crabs... that worked wonders for my guy.. just do that for days or however long it takes for him to not crab...ive only had my guy for about two weeks now and if he crabs i still continue to pet him or pick him up because he does calm down... he's in my bra as I type wink...... if you want him out of his pouch to play? i would just take the whole pouch out and bring it to the bathroom or in the tent (whatever you do to play) and he will come out eventually smile.... mine has weird sleeping habits too though he gets up at 3am and goes to bed at noon. the important thing is to go at HIS pace

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: ] #967132
07/01/10 01:33 AM
07/01/10 01:33 AM

N
natlovesroo
Unregistered
natlovesroo
Unregistered
N



but i would leave his pouch in there for now.. dont pull it jmo

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967134
07/01/10 01:36 AM
07/01/10 01:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
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hpyhwn2003  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
Yes Bourbon is still around. Her phone number is in her signature so give her a call. I know she can and will help you work with your boy. You'll also need to get a pouch protective pouch from Karen by the sounds of it.

Last edited by hpyhwn2003; 07/01/10 01:40 AM. Reason: PPP syndrome
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967136
07/01/10 01:43 AM
07/01/10 01:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,346
South Africa
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave
Bozeman  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,346
South Africa
I am sorry that you have to deal with a seemingly pouch protective glider. Before you consider removing the pouch, are you sure that there are not any health issues to rule out? Maybe take Rocky for a vet check just to make sure there aren't any other reason to cause his crabbiness.

When Rocky IS out of the pouch and in his cage, is his behavior normal (playing, eating, running his wheel, etc) or is this a complete behavior change?


:grey: Casper (Bozeman) & Liezl (Gizmogirl):grey:
www.sugarglider.co.za
hug2

A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language


PackinFuzz.com Sugar Glider Online Store

RIP: Sugar (2009) :grey:
You unfairly passed too young - your passing saved many gliders and will continue to do so
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: hpyhwn2003] #967138
07/01/10 01:47 AM
07/01/10 01:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
A pouch protective pouch is a different type of pouch designed to be more open so that the glider can easily see his/her environment. It opens it up like a hammock so that there is not really any way for the glider to hide yet allows the glider to see and learn that the noises he is hearing are not some monster out to eat him.

There are steps to take with your glider while using these pouches to help them learn to trust. bonding is really about trust building and you need to be able to see and understand things from HIS point of view. He needs to learn that you are not going to eat him.

THIS THREAD is one of THE best threads to help new owners understand their gliders. I strongly suggest you read it and consider what all it says.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Dancing] #967174
07/01/10 05:29 AM
07/01/10 05:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,454
South Africa
G
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Gizmogirl  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
G

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,454
South Africa
Originally Posted By: Dancing


THIS THREAD is one of THE best threads to help new owners understand their gliders. I strongly suggest you read it and consider what all it says.


Couldn't agree more!!


Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Gizmogirl] #967321
07/01/10 11:04 AM
07/01/10 11:04 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Ikeda Offline OP
Glider Explorer
Ikeda  Offline OP
Glider Explorer

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
No, he was JUST at the vet again on Monday (or Tuesday). (quick check over and verifying his neuter status)

Nothing in his NORMAL behavior has changed (nor has his food intake changed), just this clinginess to his pouch that isn't cool.

And I WHILE I know that some of this may still be part of the bonding it's an unacceptable response to stimulus outside of his pouch and if it ISN'T corrected then it will get worse.

Thanks all, going to double check that thread (pretty sure I've been through it already once as it's the King Kong thread). I keep getting the "your gunna eat him" thing but with a licky treat on my finger and talking to him there is no possible threat even NEAR him to have him crab. (the cage wasn't even OPEN, it was a finger was barely in far enough that he could lick it without leaving the comfort of his pouch) My fingers look like fat mealie worms with a little yogurt on the tip for him to lick off.. if he's scared of mealie worms, we have issues :-)

And if that's the case then why does he allow me to HOLD him in the cup of my hand outside of that stupid pouch (note: not grab him. I put a yoggie on the palm of my hand and he climbs out onto it.. all 4 paws... sits there and eats while I talk to him)? It's all about the pouch I think. I'll probably give Bourbon a call then as I'm stressed out about this silly thing.

Last edited by Ikeda; 07/01/10 11:08 AM.

:grey: Rocky and Winkle's Dad :wfb:

Rocky: (recognizing Boris's voice) That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?

Bullwinkle: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967329
07/01/10 11:20 AM
07/01/10 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Hey Ike! :-)

Again, let me reiterate that there is no "unacceptable response" from a suggie. They are what they are, they react the way they react and WE are the ones that need to allow them the time to react differently and on their terms. Every glider is different. Teeka love to play on me. She loves to sleep in my bra. She grooms me, eats from my hand, she loves to curl up in my hand and on my chest. But, when she's in her pouch...leave her the heck alone until SHE'S ready to come out! She'll pop her head out, see it's me and when I go to pet her, she'll crab. She will STILL crab at me after all this time - but only then. She doesn't lunge, she doesn't bite - she's not aggressive. She just plain likes her pouch and doesn't want to be disturbed. I accept that. Will I let her get by with it all the time? Heck no. If I am ready to take them out to switch to my bra so I can work on the cages? I say hello, I put my hand in and if she crabs....well, it's a whole lot of noise but I pull her anyway.

We have to accept these little ones, Ike...and if anything, you may have to accept that he isn't going to be exactly what you want him to be. :-)

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: DCMuffin] #967340
07/01/10 11:39 AM
07/01/10 11:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
It could be that he is becoming slightly pouch protective. Pouch protective is not really what it is but what we started calling it.

He isn't trying to protect his pouch but more protect himself while he is in the pouch from things he can't see but can hear/smell.

You might want to try a more open style pouch (like a pouch protective pouch from sugeebaby) or Karin makes one (dang it I can't remember what it is called) that is more open allowing him to simply open his eyes and see what is around him.

These types of pouches open up his environment so he feels less threatened. By being able to see and identify what is around him, he can more easily see if it is King Kong going to eat him or his sweet human going to give him treats and lovin.

One of my gliders has a favorite sleep spot. It is a plastic (childs toy) barn. It has open windows he can look out. I put fleece in there for him to snuggle down in and he can choose how much he wants to bury himself or he can sleep on top and look out the windows. It made a huge difference for him with HIS comfort level.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Dancing] #967357
07/01/10 12:08 PM
07/01/10 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
I've used the pouch protective pouch made by sugeebaby with many different gliders who displayed the same behavior, while working with Bourbon, and have seen it work wonders in a short period of time. With these gliders you really have to take your time and let them lead you NOT the other way around. You must gain their trust. Now don't get me wrong the reason your glider is displaying trust issues may have nothing to do with you and could be caused by any number of reasons. But no matter how they started having trust issues the fact of the matter is he has trust issues and you'll need to gain his trust.
When I started working with Bourbon I didn't have a pouch protective pouch yet so she had me start by cutting a piece of fleece and hanging it like a hammock but not as tight, it needs to hang a little to form a wide open V. So start there too. Once the fleece is in place you'll need to remove any thing he can hide in and yes that'll include the wheel if you have a wodent, don't worry you'll be putting the wheel back in before you know it. You just need to get the cage so as there are no hiding places. For every hiding place toy you remove put in a vertical toy to replace it. And if your guy is anything like Mickey you may well find him sleeping in his food cup the next morning. LOL oh yes he did Bourbon! Just remove the cup and he'll eventually go and sleep on the fleece V. Then you begin the "rattle" the cage stage of trust building, least that's what I call it. During this stage you'll go to the cage every 10 to 15 minutes. As you approach the cage you start talking to your glider using these words "Everything will be fine Rocky." And then open and close the door a few times reaching in to play with the toys. At NO time during the "rattling" do you touch Rocky. He needs to learn that you will come and go and that he is in no danger when you do so. You have just been given the first trust building stage. Try what I'm suggesting and see if it begins to make a difference. A glider will move thru the stages of the program at THEIR own pace so don't expect that you'll see a change overnight BUT you will see a change IF you are consistant with working with him. Bourbon can take over from here, she's WAY better at this kind of help than I am. And that is an understatement!

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: hpyhwn2003] #967428
07/01/10 01:11 PM
07/01/10 01:11 PM

J
jessica_dube89
Unregistered
jessica_dube89
Unregistered
J



My glider Tinker is exactly like yours! I got him in February, he was fine for a couple weeks. He never ever crabbed!! Then one day he started crabbing.. and ever since, every time I go to the cage and he wakes up he starts crabbing like crazy. If I put my hand by his pouch (I have a pouch protective one), he'll lunge at my hand and bite me while crabbing. It's really bad! But once he's out, he's fine...
It's the strangest thing.
I thought he'd grow out of it, but it's been like 5 months and no progress frown
Let me know if you have any luck with yours, let me know what you did!!! smile

Last edited by jessica_dube89; 07/01/10 01:11 PM. Reason: spell check
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: DCMuffin] #967475
07/01/10 02:30 PM
07/01/10 02:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Originally Posted By: DCMuffin
Hey Ike! :-)

Again, let me reiterate that there is no "unacceptable response" from a suggie. They are what they are, they react the way they react and WE are the ones that need to allow them the time to react differently and on their terms. Every glider is different. Teeka love to play on me. She loves to sleep in my bra. She grooms me, eats from my hand, she loves to curl up in my hand and on my chest. But, when she's in her pouch...leave her the heck alone until SHE'S ready to come out! She'll pop her head out, see it's me and when I go to pet her, she'll crab. She will STILL crab at me after all this time - but only then. She doesn't lunge, she doesn't bite - she's not aggressive. She just plain likes her pouch and doesn't want to be disturbed. I accept that. Will I let her get by with it all the time? Heck no. If I am ready to take them out to switch to my bra so I can work on the cages? I say hello, I put my hand in and if she crabs....well, it's a whole lot of noise but I pull her anyway.

We have to accept these little ones, Ike...and if anything, you may have to accept that he isn't going to be exactly what you want him to be. :-)


right on sista! lol... my Apple is kinda like this... if i reach in im in trouble! i got bit day before yesterday (drew a drop of blood!) bc i got to comfortable, went to pet them, and she was startled... however, this IS an acceptable response bc it was my fault! i have never blamed her, or gotten angry when i move to fast and it scares her! they are all so different, but please dont take her pouch away from her.... it would be like someone taking your bed away bc your grumpy and mouthy when you wake up! its just not fair. so please be patient... some are just like that and we have to acept it.


~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: eterrell84] #967678
07/01/10 05:46 PM
07/01/10 05:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
but please dont take her pouch away from her.... it would be like someone taking your bed away bc your grumpy and mouthy when you wake up! its just not fair.


By removing the pouch, you are not being unfair or mean. You are providing a hammock or pouch protective pouch (or similiar open pouch) as a bed instead.

Gliders crab when they are frightened. That is their first line of defense. Second is them crabbing and taking the ninja stance. Third is to try to bite and inflict pain.

If they are in an open pouch and learn that the movement around them isn't a threat, they will learn to relax. They will learn trust. Trust that every sound they hear isn't something trying to eat them.

Once the glider has reached that stage, then you work on closing up the pouch protective pouch little by little until it is hanging like a regular pouch again.

It is much more cruel and unfair to make a glider live in a continous state of anxiety and fear of every little noise.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967688
07/01/10 06:02 PM
07/01/10 06:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Teresa, i can see what you mean now. I thought they were saying they were just going to remove the pouch and give them a piece of fleece to sleep with and that was all!
Originally Posted By: Ikeda


P.S. I'm serious about pulling the pouch. Seemed like when he could come out and see us from under the fleece he was so much nicer overall.
thats how I took that statement... maybe i was wrong


~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: eterrell84] #967696
07/01/10 06:20 PM
07/01/10 06:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
You took only a portion of what she said and made it negative.

Quote:
I didn't have a pouch protective pouch yet so she had me start by cutting a piece of fleece and hanging it like a hammock but not as tight, it needs to hang a little to form a wide open V.



This type of misconception is why it is best to talk on the phone with someone that has been through it so there aren't any misunderstandings. Just having the pouch protective pouch isn't enough, you need to know how to best use them as well. The pouch is only a part of the process.

THIS THREAD ABOUT BUFFY is REALLY long but it is very detailed about how the pouch protective pouch was used to help Buffy get over her fears and to stop the extreme biting. Buffy was not my glider though I did foster her for a couple of months so I had first hand experience with her. Buffy was a terror. To this day, Buffy is the ONLY glider to ever "pit bull bite" me. She bit on and just kept chomping deeper and deeper and would not let go. Into the knuckle joint of my finger. I honestly didn't think anything would help this little girl get over her fears. Just 6 days after Shelle started working with Buffy with the pouch protective pouch, I went to visit them. I had Buffy take yogurt off my FINGER without so much as a grumble and just as gentle as any glider EVER. I was about knocked off my feet I was in such shock at the change in her.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Dancing] #967781
07/01/10 09:08 PM
07/01/10 09:08 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Ikeda Offline OP
Glider Explorer
Ikeda  Offline OP
Glider Explorer

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Thank you everyone. I have been walking by his pouch all day talking to him. Rattling the cage doors sometimes. One time I reached into his pouch and pet him. I think the majority of ya'll are right, the crabs are "stir" crabbing. He stirs and crabs automatically and then decides. Not sure what set him off. I'm going to try another few days of this before I take the pouch away. In my mind I KNOW that Gliders like to be surrounded in the pouch so I'm trying everything I can PRIOR to stepping back and buying the PP pouch. I keep hoping. Every member of this community has a slightly different opinion so justtrying to find what works in Rocky's case is the difficulty.

And DC, I know it's not unacceptable in a way like I'm going to punish him, it's unacceptable in a manner that I want to AVOID reinforcing. If that makes sense.

And no, I don't just give him a tiny piece of fleece. He either has a fleece blanket that has multiple folds, or he has a fleece hammock with a fair sized piece of fleece to hide under, or his pouch.


:grey: Rocky and Winkle's Dad :wfb:

Rocky: (recognizing Boris's voice) That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?

Bullwinkle: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: Ikeda] #967783
07/01/10 09:10 PM
07/01/10 09:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
I still don't agree with taking the pouch out of his cage until you're doing a Pouch Protective Pouch...JMO.

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: DCMuffin] #967798
07/01/10 09:30 PM
07/01/10 09:30 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Ikeda Offline OP
Glider Explorer
Ikeda  Offline OP
Glider Explorer

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
No worries.. I won't. He'll be well cared for either way. Even if he is a crotchity lil thing.


:grey: Rocky and Winkle's Dad :wfb:

Rocky: (recognizing Boris's voice) That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?

Bullwinkle: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: DCMuffin] #967805
07/01/10 09:55 PM
07/01/10 09:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Originally Posted By: DCMuffin
I still don't agree with taking the pouch out of his cage until you're doing a Pouch Protective Pouch...JMO.

Dancing:thats all i was trying to say. by no means was i trying to make something negative, just trying to help. im not here to upset anybody. I have never heard of a pouch protective pouch, thats why i was worried when they said "take the pouch out".


~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: eterrell84] #967811
07/01/10 10:03 PM
07/01/10 10:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,219
Washington D.C. Metro Area
I know you're trying everything, Ike...just don't want you to take out what makes him comfortable till you're working on the rest of it, that's all. :-)

Re: Worse not better, not happy [Re: eterrell84] #967812
07/01/10 10:03 PM
07/01/10 10:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
Originally Posted By: eterrell84
I have never heard of a pouch protective pouch


That's why we all come to GC to learn about the glider things we don't know.

I know at first the program seems kinda mean. Take out their closed sleeping pouch, pull most of the toys, and take out their wheel, then bugging the tar outta them during their normal sleep time. BUT it is even more cruel to have them stay scared of every little thing. Also all gliders are capable of being "sweet" gliders so just need more work and attention to figure out that it is okay to trust and love their humans.

Ikeda I'd be more than willing to talk with you about Rocky and help you understand the program. My number is in my signature. So call okay?


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