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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113239
05/13/11 04:19 PM
05/13/11 04:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
E
eshaw Offline OP
Glider Lover
eshaw  Offline OP
Glider Lover
E

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
Jeez louis ladies, lighten up! I did respect the fact that Cinnamonstix wanted a signed contract. I could have just lied,taken the glider in tow, but no, I'm honest. The whole point is that you may have no recourse once that glider leaves your possession, contract or not. Tiana,in order to enforce a contract you have to be able to serve the party in question, that means that you have to physically know where they are, easier said than done. Also, a contract signed in one state isn't necessarily enforceable in another state. And since we're telling it like it is here, what's to stop a devious person from totally scamming you on their identity, etc.., what good is that contract going to do you then???? You'll have a piece of paper to make you feel better that you TRIED to look out for the gliders best interest? I feel that the only person being served by said contract is the original owners interest.

Last edited by eshaw; 05/13/11 04:24 PM.
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113240
05/13/11 04:20 PM
05/13/11 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
I am not sure where I stand on the contract thing, but will say that if a buyer has nothing to hide, why would it bother you? That being said, if circumstances change, and you contacted the breeder, I am sure they would be able to reason with you to find a happy solution for all involved, mostly for the gliders.

It seems to me that breeders that use contracts are looking out for the gliders best interests. At least with the type of contract that states they are a forever home and if you ever need to get rid of them, you need to contact the breeder.

Now as for the type of contract that states this is a "pet only" and you cant breed that glider, I dont think I favor those. But again, I also understand why they are used, to prevent possible inbreeding.

The nice thing about this whole discussion is that if you are breeding gliders and selling them, it is YOUR business and your choice to use a contract, and if a buyer doesnt like it, they can go someplace else. Just like if for some reason you dont like a buyer, you dont have to sell to them. You reserve the right to limit quantities! smile


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Contracts [Re: MissSarah] #1113270
05/13/11 05:49 PM
05/13/11 05:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
suggiemom1980  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: MissSarah
I have a question. Does the contract have to be notarized before its valid? Or will it hold up with just the two parties signatures? Just for general information. smile

I have mine notarized. Most banks will notarize free if you have an account. I also ask for a copy of their photo ID.


Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113281
05/13/11 06:08 PM
05/13/11 06:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave
WintersSong  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
Originally Posted By: eshaw
Jeez louis ladies, lighten up! I did respect the fact that Cinnamonstix wanted a signed contract. I could have just lied,taken the glider in tow, but no, I'm honest. The whole point is that you may have no recourse once that glider leaves your possession, contract or not. Tiana,in order to enforce a contract you have to be able to serve the party in question, that means that you have to physically know where they are, easier said than done. Also, a contract signed in one state isn't necessarily enforceable in another state. And since we're telling it like it is here, what's to stop a devious person from totally scamming you on their identity, etc.., what good is that contract going to do you then???? You'll have a piece of paper to make you feel better that you TRIED to look out for the gliders best interest? I feel that the only person being served by said contract is the original owners interest.


The basic point that I'm getting here is that you're saying contracts aren't any good, or anything more than protection in theory, but not in actuality due to a difficulty in enforcing the contract. I want to say that I have read of times where a glider contract has held up in court.


Also, I want to say that if I was a breeder (I'm not), I would be alarmed by anyone who did not want to sign a contract.


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113290
05/13/11 06:38 PM
05/13/11 06:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
suggiemom1980  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: eshaw
what's to stop a devious person from totally scamming you on their identity, etc..,

Because people in the glider community are tight knit and help each other when it comes to gliders, even if they don't like the person.

A breeder I know, sold gliders to someone who ended up not paying them off and then moved, out of state, with the gliders. Thanks to the glider community, this person, and gliders, were tracked down. Because there was a signed, notarized contract, this breeder was able to get the gliders back. They then found another home for them, for the cost of the balance due.

I bought one of my gliders, because the person who contracted to buy her, stopped paying. Because of the contract, the glider was relinquished and sold to me for the remaining balance.

I don't just hand a contract to someone to sign and hand them my glider. I get to know that person through PM's, emails, phone calls, my questionnaire and application. It's a slow process on my part. I do my best to get to know them, check references, check their background in the community (other boards and email groups) before getting to the contract part. If I don't feel comfortable during any part of the process, then we don't even get to the contract. I make my decision before the contract, not with the contract.

My contract protects the glider in every way I can think of. I don't insist a particular diet be fed, but require an approved diet.


Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113297
05/13/11 07:06 PM
05/13/11 07:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
You're amazing Connie laugh if for whatever reason I did ever have to rehome any gliders I own/may own in the future I'd use the same idea.

The fact that the glider community is so tight knit is amazing to me smile and I feel blessed to be a part of it <3

Now about contracts, I love them haha! And I'm not even a breeder nor have I even bought from one (yet.) ~Tianna, you are still on my list for a leu one day and Cinnamonstix, I wish I could take your beautiful little boy. Maybe if he's still available later on haha! Surprised someone hasn't snatched him already tounge


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113334
05/13/11 08:20 PM
05/13/11 08:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
E
eshaw Offline OP
Glider Lover
eshaw  Offline OP
Glider Lover
E

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
I think that it's a sad day that a person has to go to such lengths because of "trust" issues. I understand it but in all honesty I think that enforcing a contract may be conceivable but difficult in most scenarios.

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113344
05/13/11 08:39 PM
05/13/11 08:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,039
Bristol, Va
MissSarah Offline
Glider Addict
MissSarah  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,039
Bristol, Va
After seeing all these replies, I don't think its about trust issues. I think its bigger than that.

I think its taking every precaution to protect the little one in question that can't cry out for help if someone is being less than honest.

Not about you and not about the breeder. But the innocent life thats changing hands.


Proud Mom to Princess Pim The Insane. heart(and several other babies, skin and fur.)

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff. Gliders have indentured servants.

:rbridge: Dexter. You left blueberry stains on my wall and pawprints on my heart. I love you Decker-Boy. heart
Full Moon Gliders
(Under Construction)

Re: Contracts [Re: MissSarah] #1113346
05/13/11 08:41 PM
05/13/11 08:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave
kjgoulet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
Originally Posted By: MissSarah
After seeing all these replies, I don't think its about trust issues. I think its bigger than that.

I think its taking every precaution to protect the little one in question that can't cry out for help if someone is being less than honest.

Not about you and not about the breeder. But the innocent life thats changing hands.


thumb this is what I got out of it too! smile


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113349
05/13/11 08:54 PM
05/13/11 08:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,007
Greeley, CO
Usha77 Offline
Glider Addict
Usha77  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,007
Greeley, CO
It may be difficult, but it is not impossible. Trust me, I know quite a few people who have needed that contract and thank goodness they had it. I also know several people who probably wish they had used a contract. Honestly, it boils down to "to each his/her own". The thing is, being in the glider community for over 4 years, I know how easy it is for scammers, liars, and thieves to "infiltrate" and become trusted members of the community until they show their true colors. Not to mention the thousands of people out there who are not members of the online glider community. There are honestly very few people that I would trust to do what I believe is right. Okay, that's not true, I trust anyone and everyone until they give me a reason not to. The problem is that there are many reasons to distrust someone. I absolutely love this community and nearly everyone in it, but I know that not everyone has the same feeling/beliefs/opinions as I do and I know that stuff happens and I really can't trust 100% that people would do right by the gliders. Yes, it is sad that contracts are necessary, but that is the way of the world. It just is.

I can honestly say that I have never signed a contract, but I absolutely would if required. In a heartbeat. The people that I have gotten my gliders from either didn't really care what happened to them or they absolutely trusted me to do right by them. Of course, it helps to be very good friends (in real life even!) with breeders who know and trust me and know that I would never let them down. For me (and so many others here), gliders are not property and are not mine "to do whatever I want" with. They are living, breathing beings who came from a home where they were very much loved. My dad tells me to buy a snake and I have food for them (gliders), my brother tells me to sell them so I'm not so broke. My mom calls them her grandgliders - she knows and understands that these creatures are my family and they come first, even before my wants. If I adopted a child, there would be a contract that I would have to abide by. My parents adopted 2 cats from the Humane Society and the contract they signed stated they could not declaw them. Their vet said he would do it and wouldn't tell. My parents declined because they are honest people and would never break a contract whether written or verbal. The thing is, you probably have more legal recourse if the contract is written.

Wow...sorry about the novel. Obviously, I am pretty darned passionate about this subject. And, no, it really isn't because I am friends in real life with some of the participants of this discussion. LOL!


Brenda
970-616-2872
mlove
Gliders: Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa
Dogs: Nacho & Dory
RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas

mlove

www.sugargroup.org






Re: Contracts [Re: MissSarah] #1113373
05/13/11 10:00 PM
05/13/11 10:00 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Meg_n_Von Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Meg_n_Von  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Originally Posted By: MissSarah
Not about you and not about the breeder. But the innocent life thats changing hands.


thumb


Megan & LaVaughn

Sugar Exotics

:bb: Kira :grey: Sadie - Neal :wfb: Pip - Violet :rtmo: Logan - Charli - Tyler - Seamus :plat: Chloe - Cas :leu: Boone

RIP David
Your life was short lived, but your memory will last forever.
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113389
05/13/11 10:17 PM
05/13/11 10:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Originally Posted By: eshaw
Wow, I wasn't expecting this kind of response! Well, now it's my turn. I'd like to thank all of you that replied. I see that the general consensus is that you all love your animals and want what's best for them since you're acting as their stewards. KUDO's to you. Now, I have gliders (two) that I rescued and one that I out right purchased. No contracts involved either time. The animals are doing great and I care for them better than myself. My opinion and it's just that, an opinion, is that I find a contract superfolous. You have very little recourse with it should the need arise. In the end you are taking this person purchasing your glider at their word. Once it's purchased they have nothing to stop them from dropping off the face of the earth with the animal. There is no way of telling that they will honor the contract once signed either. Does my not wanting to sign a contract make me a bad glider owner, NOPE. I just look at it this way. When I purchase a glider it's ownership transfers to me, plain and simple. Do you have any more to say in the matter, NOPE. It becomes a part of my family under my care. You'd have no more say in the matter than you would with one of my kids.
Now, I totally understand that you feel responsible to find the best possible home and that's great. Just because you've had a bad experience in the past shouldn't make you not trust everyone who buys from you or wishes to do so. I think that if a person requires verifiable references that's a good indicator of their character. On another note, I recently would have liked to purchase a male glider for my female leu but that won't work because of the contract issue. I feel that had I signed a contract with this person I'd be deceiving her since I don't believe in them. I respect the fact that she wants one so the search continues.
I understand you dislike of the contracts, but I treat everyone who buys gliders from me the same.

I would never sell a glider if I felt the person would never contact me if they were going to re-home it. I don't feel good about it.

Even my breeder friends have verbal contracts with me and they will contact me if re-homing. I just had one contact me last week in fact, on a glider she purchased from me almost 2 years ago. She's retiring her and getting her to a pet home.

I would rather loose a sale then not have the promise on paper. My lawyer has seen a copy of it, and as long as the person signs, it is legal binding and would hold up in small claims court.

Others here have had to resort to the court systems and won.

Yes. I do care very much for my gliders. It's my way or no way. It's just the way it has to be. I am not going to apologize for it. It's for the good of the animals. If I let it slide for you, I would have to do it for others, and that just is not going to happen.


Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena

Re: Contracts [Re: MissSarah] #1113392
05/13/11 10:21 PM
05/13/11 10:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Originally Posted By: MissSarah
After seeing all these replies, I don't think its about trust issues. I think its bigger than that.

I think its taking every precaution to protect the little one in question that can't cry out for help if someone is being less than honest.

Not about you and not about the breeder. But the innocent life thats changing hands.
Thank you. I know it's how I feel and how the rest of those on this thread are feeling too who sell joeys.


Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113418
05/13/11 11:33 PM
05/13/11 11:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict
cinnamonstix  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
Well we still had a long way to go before an adoption would have been complete. I was still waiting on a filled out questionnaire. I look into any inquiries of possible adoptions, and quite frankly, there was a very small amount of contact between you and I. The ladies and I will not lighten up when you say things like you could have lied but you didn't. Even suggesting such things stands out to us as a flag. Lack of communication and saying that you do not want to sign a contract is a flag. Telling the breeder you are trying to adopt from that what you do with a glider is your business is a flag. I have seen a few (flags) and mind you I was on caution. I have held this baby since the day he came out of pouch, I love him and I care very much where he ends up. If I could not find a home, practically anyone I know would take him off my hands if he could not stay here, and realisitically if I neutered him, he could stay here. At least I would know he is safe instead of at the clutches of someone who truly does not care. He deserves to be loved. He is perfect.

I send you to my questionnaire and you tell me you do not have an issue with that but you are not one for contracts and what you do with a glider you own is up to you. I tell you a contract is required for adoption and why I require it (to know where my joeys end up and to know they are being taken care of). The only reply I get after this is that you will resepct my issues. I read this and I was confused...THEN I find this thread. At least my confusion was cleared up because I was already unsure what to even say. Flags were already burning.

Anyhow, this thread has stirred up a lot of commotion, good luck in whatever it is you are trying to do.


~GWEN~
Crazy Hubby Dru
Tortoise: Vork
Cats: Scooby, Swiper, Zero, Dinah & Sykes
Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Rei, Rafiki & Rajah; Opal, Lily & Link; Tael, Tatl & Navi; Kristoff Krabbs & Crabby Patty
:rbridge: Fern, Cjarsa, Syfka, Icarus, Ivy, Howie & Gracie

www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113423
05/13/11 11:41 PM
05/13/11 11:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
suggiemom1980  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
No matter the reasons for contracts, bottom line is, if someone doesn't want to sign a contract, no one is going to force them. By the same token, if a breeder requires a contract, then the buyer should be willing to sign it, in order to get the glider. I respect those who don't want to sign my contract. It is their right. I will refuse to let them have my glider. That is my right. I wouldn't get mad if someone didn't want to sign my contract. And they shouldn't get mad because I require one.


Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113450
05/14/11 12:36 AM
05/14/11 12:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
G
Glider_Invasion Offline
Glider Explorer
Glider_Invasion  Offline
Glider Explorer
G

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 168
Maryland, USA
We have never had anyone NOT sign my contract and it is very tight.
We have had the reason to use it because we were flat out lied to about the size of the cage. As someone stated earlier, the glider community is a close and caring community. Someone found out the glider was in a 'small' bird cage instead of the "one just like yours". They had to relinquish the glider and ONLY because we declined, they did not have to pay a $500.00 fine for breech of contract.
We would have helped them get a proper cage.(as we had many people before). But they chose to lie instead.

These are our babies. And most do all we can to insure the best possible 'forever' homes. We do stress that we get first dibs if need arises to re-home them, because we feel responsible for them. We don't take in rescues but we do take our own back in. Plus the fact, the can and will die when moved from home to home once they start bonding!

There are to many caring perspective glider parents who feel protected with such a tight contract. And if it was just for the money, there would be no contract!

So bottom line is - No contract signed, no glider adopted.


Diane

http://www.glider-invasion.webs.com

Happy & Educated Parents, have Happy & Healthy Suggies.
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113464
05/14/11 12:56 AM
05/14/11 12:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Ernie, this is the last thing I am going to say here.

You are going to sell joeys and no doubt, without a contract. In a year or two time, let me know how many owners come back to you saying the gliders liver is shutting down because he thought it would be easier feed a pellet diet or that the joeys they are having are having genetic issues because they bred something to a glider from the outside with no lineage.

Or, a wife buys a glider and a husband doesn't want them in the house and they wind up sticking them out on the porch to freeze to death and die.

Yep. Some of these things have happened to my gliders, and and some have happened to friends gliders. It was all before I had a contract. Contracts DO help weed out those without the right intentions. Once they see a copy of it, then they know that they are bound by it or face the consquences.

If anything like this happens with a contract, I can legally get the glider back and help it.

Why does that serve me over the glider? I don't understand. If you can't respect my contract, I can't sell to you.

Last edited by Marsupial_Mayhem; 05/14/11 01:00 AM.

Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113498
05/14/11 02:19 AM
05/14/11 02:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Alright. I have to put in my opinion on contracts.

At first, I had a verbal agreement. I thought it was enough for me to question the homes and like the person getting my babies.

A couple things made me create a contract.

First: the first joey I sold went to an awesome home... he updated me all the time, and I was happy. When the glider was about a year old, the owner decided that he traveled too much and didn't want the hassle of sugar glider ownership. I sold the glider for 200, and the new owner wanted me to pay 550 for the pair to come back. He refused to allow me to know where he would rehome him. I still don't know what happened to Trinady. frown

Second: when I rehome a pair of my rescues. The owner seemed really good, but once he got them, he refused to agree to feed a proper diet. After 2 conversations with him, gently encouraging him to feed a proper diet, he stopped responding to me completely.

Third: I sold twin girls to a woman near me. I made it very clear that the girls were NOT for breeding. things seemed fine for a while.. but then I texted her to ask how they were... I found out that her boyfriend had them. When I caled him, he informed me that while she had them, she split my girls up and put them with RESCUED males. Since there is no contract, I have no ability to do anything about them.

These are why I INSIST on a contract with ANY glider leaving my home. My contract is more strict than most, but I feel like its protecting my gliders.

I have a section about the diet, listing the ones that I am comfortable with my babies being fed. I have a section about breeding vs. Non breeding. I also have a section about caging, listing the bare minimums that I want them to have more than. I also have a clause for single gliders.

I do not have anything about contacting me to updatel but I occasionally (every 2-3 months) call/text/email just to check in.

I also have an important section about veterinary care. I have seen WAY too many people posting on here about injuries and not able to take them to the vet. If that happens, I get the glider back and I can take care of the vet.

I do have a section for first right of refusal, and it also includes that if they rehome, the new owner needs to sign a contract with me.

My contract is strict, but I believe that it will discourage those who won't care enough about them to provide the minimal level of care. I also make it clear to the buyers that my contract is not something I plan to be reading daily and looking to use against them. The fact that they are willing to sign it gives me reassurance that they will be an excellent home. I have had a contract for 8 months, and I haven't needed to even take one out of the filing cabinet where they are sitting.

EDIT: I had one person that was concerned about the contract. At first this concerned me greatly. But once she and I discussed the details of the contract and the actual expectations... she and her husband were more than happy to sign the contract for the gliders.

I also have to approve any breeding pairing that my gliders are in. This is just to prevent my gliders from getting inbred.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 05/14/11 02:48 AM.

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113619
05/14/11 02:08 PM
05/14/11 02:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Great Post Brenda!

Also awesome post Nadine glad you could show examples!!!!

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113650
05/14/11 03:36 PM
05/14/11 03:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
E
eshaw Offline OP
Glider Lover
eshaw  Offline OP
Glider Lover
E

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 593
Iowa
Danielle, I'm not following you on "Why does that serve me over the glider?"

Cinnamonstix, I know we had a long way to go before striking a deal. You need to check your facts though. You state above "I send you to my questionnaire and you tell me you do not have an issue with that but you are not one for contracts and what you do with a glider you own is up to you. I tell you a contract is required for adoption and why I require it (to know where my joeys end up and to know they are being taken care of). The only reply I get after this is that you will resepct my issues. I read this and I was confused...THEN I find this thread. At least my confusion was cleared up because I was already unsure what to even say. Flags were already burning."

I would like to point out that YOU never stated this to me other than through your contract after guiding me to it. The contract states why you require it. What I stated is "I'd like to purchase this guy but I'm not one for contracts. I don't mind the questionaire but if I own a glider what I do with him is up to me. Thanks again!"

If that confused you I apologize, that wasn't my intent. My starting this thread is for my own information and has absolutely nothing to do with you specifically. Id' also like to say that "issues" was a poor choice of word, I should have said wishes. Besides, if you read something I sent you and were confused by it why do you feel that you couldn't PM me if you had a question? I don't bite!


Last edited by eshaw; 05/14/11 03:37 PM.
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113671
05/14/11 04:08 PM
05/14/11 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
This has been a very informative discussion so far. Let's keep this an objective discussion. Any issues that any of you have with any "dealings" should be handled off the board, in my humble opinion.


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113710
05/14/11 05:22 PM
05/14/11 05:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
I get it from the last sentence of what you posted here. I am not sure how you think that my asking to help choose the next home benefits me. I am not asking for any fees or monenitary gain, I just want to make sure the next home (if that indeed happens) will care for the glider in a manner to which it deserves. I don't know why you think it's a bad thing I stipulate this? Here is what I was referring to:

[color:#FFFF00]"Jeez louis ladies, lighten up! I did respect the fact that Cinnamonstix wanted a signed contract. I could have just lied,taken the glider in tow, but no, I'm honest. The whole point is that you may have no recourse once that glider leaves your possession, contract or not. Tiana,in order to enforce a contract you have to be able to serve the party in question, that means that you have to physically know where they are, easier said than done. Also, a contract signed in one state isn't necessarily enforceable in another state. And since we're telling it like it is here, what's to stop a devious person from totally scamming you on their identity, etc.., what good is that contract going to do you then???? You'll have a piece of paper to make you feel better that you TRIED to look out for the gliders best interest? I feel that the only person being served by said contract is the original owners interest."


[/color]

Last edited by Marsupial_Mayhem; 05/14/11 05:23 PM.

Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113712
05/14/11 05:28 PM
05/14/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
OK, just so we're clear - let's all remember R4;
Originally Posted By: GC Rule #4
4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. ... Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113768
05/14/11 09:31 PM
05/14/11 09:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict
cinnamonstix  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
I never stated what to you exactly? And as for the "issues", wow, typo on my part. Minor mental dyslexia there. You said you would respect my wishes....not sure how the heck I typed a completely diff word. Bleh.


~GWEN~
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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113921
05/15/11 05:50 AM
05/15/11 05:50 AM

M
Megs
Unregistered
Megs
Unregistered
M



Oh Lord help me in catching up on all of the threads I'm interested in. roflmao

Originally Posted By: cinnamonstix
Oh and I will be ammedning my pet only. I will not sell any females at pet only pricing unless it is someone I know or is highly trusted. males WILL be neutered before leaving for their new home in most cases as well. Just a bit more fool proof this way for me.
When I originally contacted Meekah's breeder, I was expecting a pet only price, and was a little agitated that I wasn't getting that. BUT.. After discussing it, I understood, and now I totally favor this. Pet only pricing for males, okay, but not for females. Major kudos to you for the revamp. thumb wink





Originally Posted By: eshaw
Jeez louis ladies, lighten up! I did respect the fact that Cinnamonstix wanted a signed contract. I could have just lied,taken the glider in tow, but no, I'm honest. The whole point is that you may have no recourse once that glider leaves your possession, contract or not. Tiana,in order to enforce a contract you have to be able to serve the party in question, that means that you have to physically know where they are, easier said than done. Also, a contract signed in one state isn't necessarily enforceable in another state. And since we're telling it like it is here, what's to stop a devious person from totally scamming you on their identity, etc.., what good is that contract going to do you then???? You'll have a piece of paper to make you feel better that you TRIED to look out for the gliders best interest? I feel that the only person being served by said contract is the original owners interest.

Oh you'd be surprised. I can't recall who the people were, though it's irrelevant and doesn't need to be stated, however recently a woman was served (YOU don't have to serve somebody; ANYBODY can serve a person) for non payment for her gliders. She didn't appear in court, which was to be in the area of the breeder, and she didn't bother to even respond to the court order. The breeder won.
Contracts are legally binding, regardless of the state. Even if the parties are in different states, or one/both moved to different states.
And in my opinion, all contracts should be notarized by public notary. In order to do this, you have to provide your license, and the license and name on the contract must be the same, thus fake identity usage would not be possible for this.





Originally Posted By: suggiemom1980

Because people in the glider community are tight knit and help each other when it comes to gliders, even if they don't like the person.



Just another thing I love about the glider community. There are people I'm not too fond of, but if they needed help, whether coming to me privately or seeking help from anybody willing to help, I'd do what I could to help.
I would hope those who don't care for me would do the same because in the end, it's not about each other's likes/dislikes of one another, it's about the good of the glider/s.


Originally Posted By: cinnamonstix
I never stated what to you exactly? And as for the "issues", wow, typo on my part. Minor mental dyslexia there. You said you would respect my wishes....not sure how the heck I typed a completely diff word. Bleh.

Fatigue. ALWAYS blame it on the fatigue. roflmao

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113938
05/15/11 08:00 AM
05/15/11 08:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
I breed both sugar gliders and AKC Labrador retrievers and I also run a non-profit that sometimes takes in rescues/rehomes.

There are contracts for all three & signing the contract is a requirement.

My contracts are not there to help me... my contracts are there to help the animals. Period.

Look - here is the thing: I understand that once a person has possession of something, it is theirs. But let's say I buy a glider from a breeder... it is me, not the breeder, who will house it, love it, feed it, train it, vet it and do everything (physically and financially) for this glider. Therefore, I should have the right to make all decisions regarding the glider, right? I paid for it - it belongs to me - and I have put all this time, effort, and money into it...

But lets say I'm estranged from my family and have no friends - and I pass away. The people who come to settle my affairs don't know me and don't know anything about gliders... they pass the glider off on someone via an ad they place on CL... the person who gets the glider is a newbie. Now no one knows what to feed, how to house, what is safe and what is not, etc for this animal. The glider is malnourished and poorly treated and never vetted. It is given a hamster wheel and ends up with it's tail ripped off. It isn't given attention, is never out of the cage to bond or play, and thanks to the tail injury pain it self mutilates and dies miserably in pain and anguish all alone.

Now lets say the same thing happens... but they find the contract I signed with the original breeder in my personal papers while settling my affairs. They contact the original breeder, who takes the glider back, and the glider stays with the original breeder or is rehomed to a suitable, knowledgeable home... and now the glider ends up having a full, happy life being loved, housed properly, treated well, and fed a proper diet.

Or let's say I sell a pair of gliders to a great home but "life happens" and the couple I sell to gets divorced. The wife was the gliders' primary caretaker and the husband really knows little or nothing. Out of spite, he asks for and is awarded the gliders in court. He sells them to someone who, as it turns out, is running a glider mill. The gliders are kept in miserable conditions and eventually die a horrible death after producing untold numbers of joeys for the mill's profits.

Now let's say that because BOTH of them signed my contract when they purchased, and the wife is worried about the gliders' well being, she contacts me and tells me the husband is trying to sell the gliders. Before the mill can buy them, I take him to court - contract in hand - and am awarded custody of the gliders because he breached the contact by avoiding my right of first refusal clause. Now, the gliders come back to me - I can keep them, rehome them - even give them back to the wife who had loved them in the first place if I want to. Regardless, the glider is better off and lives a full, happy, healthy life.

Are the lives of those 2 gliders worth me losing sales because people do not want to sign my contract? You bet your behind they are... so while I will never think badly of anyone who refuses to sign - I will never sell without one either.


Julie
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Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1113995
05/15/11 11:14 AM
05/15/11 11:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,039
Bristol, Va
MissSarah Offline
Glider Addict
MissSarah  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,039
Bristol, Va
Thats an awesome way to explain it, Julie. clap


Proud Mom to Princess Pim The Insane. heart(and several other babies, skin and fur.)

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff. Gliders have indentured servants.

:rbridge: Dexter. You left blueberry stains on my wall and pawprints on my heart. I love you Decker-Boy. heart
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Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1114012
05/15/11 11:33 AM
05/15/11 11:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,216
Washington D.C. Metro Area
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
DCMuffin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28,216
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Very well said, Julie! thumb

Re: Contracts [Re: DCMuffin] #1114039
05/15/11 12:26 PM
05/15/11 12:26 PM

B
Byanka
Unregistered
Byanka
Unregistered
B



This has been a great thread to read! I've learned so much about contracts (the benefits). Thank you so much for clearing up the gray and emphasizing how important contracts are!

Re: Contracts [Re: eshaw] #1114078
05/15/11 01:33 PM
05/15/11 01:33 PM

M
Megs
Unregistered
Megs
Unregistered
M



I agree Byanka! I wish I had a thread like this to go to when learning about contracts. Instead I felt like a schmuck and emailed a bunch of breeders hoping for insight. A few responded in what I call 'English terms', meaning... not all legal wording, so I understood.
But even so now that I know, I still think this thread is just amazing!

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