I thought that this may be something of interest to people out there.
I have been communicating with a supplier of acacia Gum who produces organic food grade acacia gum.
Finally someone has given me some good statistics as to the nutritional value of gum, particularly the calcium content!

So here it is...
per 100grams of Gum Powder
348Kcal calories
17mg Sodium
759mg Potassium
670mg Calcium
85g Total Carbohydrate
85g Soluble Fiber
2g Protein

After speaking with a few other people, I'm guessing and that the reason that phosphorous was not included was becuse the amount is trivial and not significant enought to mention. I've asked te supplier, but haven't gottne a response yet.
But, for those of you who have been researching acacia gum, I'm sure those statistics will interest you. The calcium figure especially! 670 mg is a pretty good amount! It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

Thank you for posting this information! My baby has not tried acacia gum yet but we are very curious and hopefully soon I will find out where I can get some. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exotic Nutrition's website has some. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Big Ern!

Interesting!! We have been given some arabic gum, but we are getting some acacia gum hopefully next week. Although, on the negative side - i have been informed that if you offer this with veg, fruit or insects simultaneously the gum won't be touched!! Be interesting to put that to the test.

All gliders appetites are different, some may touch it if offered in conjunction with other foods, some may not. It depends on your wee-one.

Most gliders don't really like the gum all by itself.
They're a bit spoiled by the nice sweet fruits we give them.
I mix mine with some passion fruit juice and pollen and stuff it into the drilled out holes of some branches I made for my gliders. If you're gonna do this, I'd suggest boiling the branches intermittently to keep them clean. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading up on glider diets in the wild, and what Ern feeds his gliders is right on target. I recommend that everyone look into the merits of bee pollen and other natural parts of the wild glider's diet, especially with all the fuss about trying to feed the right thing!

I'm definitely gonna invest in some of this.

Big Ern, how do you boil the branches? In a super huge pot at your resaurant?? I have had branches before but they get old and yucky and i dont know how to clean them. I would love to be able to do something like you do for my gliders.

[:"blue"]Sorry, but there are some comments here that are not supported by proven fact and therefore are totally speculative. And a quick check with the calculator raises a question about how significant the calcium in the gum really is. Mind you I'm not trying to argue against feeding your gliders the gum, I'm simply pointing out that the above presentation doesn't any substantial information to justify it. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I'm [:"red"] GUESSING [/] that the reason that phosphorous was not included was becuse the amount is trivial and not significant enough to mention......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] We don't know why phosphorous was not on the label and we don't know that the amount is trivial. Look at any food product that you buy in the store and very few, if any of them list the phosphorous content. I don't know why that is. Wheat germ is terribly negative with respect to it's Ca:P ratio....it has a lot of phosphorous; but phosphorous is not listed on the label. Same is true for many of the baby foods we feed our gliders. Don't know about everyone else; but I would prefer not to [/] [:"red"] "GUESS" [/] [:"blue"] about an issue that is so critical to glider health. On the other hand, Ernie has stated that the Ca:P ratio of his mix is around 3.5:1. Depending upon the actual amount of calcium available, there may be enough calcium to offset a negative ratio in the gum if it turns out to have one. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....670 mg is a pretty good amount.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Maybe, maybe not..... According to my calculator and what was posted in the other diet thread, a glider gets only about 5 mg of calcium per day from what is provided by the gum component of the diet and this assumes that the gum has no phosphorous to offset the calcium.....an assumption that we don't now to be true. And to put that in perspective, a glider on the BML diet gets about 100 mg of calcium per day. Bottom line....under the best of circumstances, the calcium in the gum is not very significant. (To be fair, I have done some calculations that suggest there is more calcium in the BML diet than is necessary to provide a 2:1 Ca:P for the total BML diet...but that is another story.)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] [/] The above is totally speculative and unsupported by any facts. First and foremost, is the problem that if the gum has a negative Ca:P ratio it cannot contribute to balancing a wild glider's diet. Secondly, even if it turns out that the gum has a good Ca:P ratio, the powdered stuff that you buy in a bottle and feed to your gliders is not close to being the same stuff that a glider consumes in the wild. An analogy: sort of like comparing the garlic powder that one might use for cooking with a fresh clove of garlic. In a sense, you can think of powdered gum as a concentrate of the stuff your little furbutt might in the wild. We don't know what the Ca:p ratio is of the food that a glider eats in the wild and we certainly don't know exactly how much calcium a glider actually needs to consume or how much gum a glider consumes on a daily basis. We also don't know how much of the natural gum a glider would have to eat to balance his diet because we know just about zip about their natural diet.

I don't know if feeding A.gum is a good thing or a bad thing?? What I do know is there is certainly not enough information presently available to prove it one way or another. [/]

Personally, I don't see how feeding gliders something that constitutes a huge part of their natural diet could be bad. I don't have my figures on me right now, but I do have some books that document the percentage of a glider's total diet that Acacia and Eucalypt gums make up, and the books mention the amount of gum gathered from one tree and make comments about how many different sources one glider would need for a night of eating. I'll get back to this when I get home in a few hours.

I don't think Randy is saying that acacia gum aka gum arabic is bad. I think he is saying that there is not enough evidence in to replace a proven diet with it.

Big Earn, if you are getting your information from the back of the acacia container, phosphoris is probably not listed because it is not concidered important. In other words you won't see P listed on the back of a bag of corn either. If you will email the company you got it from the should have a complete breakdown.

AngelaFx, when I want to clean a branch for my gliders...I scrub it first with dawn dish soap. Then I pour boiling water over the branch at leact 3 times. I mean, I boil a pan of water 3 times and pour it on. Then I let the branch air dry and inspect it for anything that looks like it should be scrubbed off. I have even baked smaller branches on low in the oven to kill anything leftover.
Diane, 3 gliders and 2 more in pouch!!

OK so my other post was removed, anyways...
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
According to my calculator and what was posted in the other diet thread, a glider gets only about 5 mg of calcium per day from what is provided by the gum component of the diet and this assumes that the gum has no phosphorous to offset the calcium.....an assumption that we don't now to be true. And to put that in perspective, a glider on the BML diet gets about 100 mg of calcium per day. Bottom line....under the best of circumstances, the calcium in the gum is not very significant. (To be fair, I have done some calculations that suggest there is more calcium in the BML diet than is necessary to provide a 2:1 Ca:P for the total BML diet...but that is another story.)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> By my calculations my gliders from my diet get 84mg of calcium per tablespoon of food....

Also, wild gliders most likely consume MUCH more gum in the wild than my diet provides. It's not intended to offset the ratio significantly by any means in reference to my diet. But, a fact worth exploring is that it MAY in the diet of a wild glider. What else could? What else do they consume that has a significant amount of calcium. Logical deduction would lead one to conclude that there must be something in the wild diet that is a significant source of calcium that must have a very highly positive calcium ratio. Otherwise gliders wouldn't exist in the wild, they'd all have died of HLP!
What could that something be?
My personal hypothesis is that it is Acacia Gum

It is not at all my intention to suggest that Acacia Gum be used to create a positive calcium ratio in the diet of a captive glider. Honestly I was just posting the stats to be helpful for those that might be interested. I know the stats were hard to come by for me!

Also, quite honestly, I feel that some of the attitudes expressed by certain people on this thread are less than positive, and I find them a bit offensive...
Why, if the truth is so important, don't people help me find it, if what I have presented is not enough? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I'd appreciate it if people dedicated a little more effort to helping me find the answers rather than telling me the ones that I have are incorrect.
That would be the positive thing to do, wouldn't it?
I don't mind being wrong at all if people are willing to positively assist me in finding the correct answers.
It'd be much more helpful than pointing out the wrongs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

*deleted, because I got my threads mixed up*

And I feel that there surely is a more positive way to go about it!
We emphasize time and time again the need for positive methods of communication on the board, although his post was factual, I personally did not find it positive, maybe it's just me...
What he was addressing in part was something that I had no intention of asserting.

I just find it a bit frustrating when I feel like I'm walking on eggshells with everything I say, and that I have to be so careful about what I say, because it's gonna get shoved back down my throat if anything isn't EXACTLY correct. That doesn't make me feel like the environment is friendly or conducive to progress in the least. Is that understandable? I want for mine what everybody wants for theirs, health and happiness.

I don't really feel like the issue of feeding acacia gum should be that sensitive of an issue? Mother nature has fed it to gliders for millenia.

I didn't create my diet with the idea of being a revolutionary of any sort. In fact if one was to look at it closely, it actually uses ideas from diets that have already been used! There is really nothing that new about my diet. I don't mind if it's picked apart at all. If it is done with good intentions in a positive manner, then I welcome it! In my post on the thread about the diet, I emphasize that I welcome criticisms. Address them to me with the attitude that one wants to help positively affect it without trying to make me look like an idiot and I'll be more than receptive, I'll be thankful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Just asking because I don't know, wouldn't dawn soap kind of soak into the branch. No matter how many times you rinse something porous, wouldn't it still seep in a little?

Also, here are some links that I thought might be interesting.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v26je07.htm
http://www.nutraceuticalsnow.com/issues/back/2000winter/gum_arabic.php
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/2003/1003AP.html
http://www.preparedfoods.com/CDA/Article...,112957,00.html
http://www.nutraceuticalsnow.com/issues/back/2000winter/fibregum.php

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Personally, I don't see how feeding gliders something that constitutes a huge part of their natural diet could be bad.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Becca:

Far as I know, no one has said it was bad to feed gum??? The question seems to revolves around whether it is "NECESSARY" and how much benefit, if any, is derived.

I would love to see any information you might have on gliders consumption habits in the wild!! [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I don't think Randy is saying that acacia gum aka gum arabic is bad. I think he is saying that there is not enough evidence in to replace a proven diet with it......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Please correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think acacia gum and gum arabic are exactly the same thin. Seems to me I remember someone posting that gum arabic comes from a different species of tree in Africa.

Anita is correct in her interpretation of my message. Did not and am not saying it is bad.....just that we don't have enough information to know whether it is necessary and whether the powdered stuff that we get provides the same benefits to captive gliders as the natural stuff does to wild gliders. [/]

The powdered stuff is simply gum with the water removed, and gum arabic (never heard of it 'til today) is apparently similar enough to acacia gum that it can be substituted. Why, though, when you can order dehydrated acacia gum powder using the handy-dandy 'Net? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A gummy exudation from Acacia Senegal, Willdenow" (U. S. P.). The concrete juices of other species are also included under the commercial name Gum Acacia.
Nat. Ord.—Leguminosae.
SYNONYMS: Gum arabic, Gum acacia, Gum mimosa, Gummi mimosae, Gummi arabicum.
ILLUSTRATION: Acacia Senegal, Bentley and Trimen, Med. Plants, 94; A. vera, Willdenow, Spec. Plant, iv., 1805.

More info for those who are interested.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Acacia_senegal.html

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Please correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think acacia gum and gum arabic are exactly the same thin. Seems to me I remember someone posting that gum arabic comes from a different species of tree in Africa.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[:"blue"] Gum Arabic is synonynm for Acacia Gum. Most commercially available Gum Arabic is from Acacia Senegal. The Gum Arabic that is used in foods is obtained from Acacia Senegal. There are variances in the amounts of tannins in Acacia Gums derived from different types of Acacias. Most if not all species besides Acacia Senegal are NOT used to produce the food grade gum.

http://www.ticgums.com/
This is one supplier that supplies Gum Arabic/Acacia Gum in many forms and grades, most notably organic additive free gum.
They have some info on their pages

Also here are another couple links of interest if you are concerned about the safety of A.Senegal gum versus other Acacia Gums <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...itool=iconabstr
According to Exotic Nutrition, the gum powder that they sell is from Acacia Mearnsii which is the primary source of gum for gliders in the wild living in Australia.

I don't understand why Randy hasn't addressed the info and questions that I posted?
What could possibly balance a gliders diet in the wild other than Acacia Gum? What else do they consume in the wild that is a significant enough source of calcium that would allow them to survive despite their frequent consumption of items that have largely negative calcium ratios? Why has it been cited that Acacia Gum is to be credited with balancing out the calcium levels in animals such as the gumnivorous Marmoset, and why could the same not apply to gliders? If the calcium ratio of Acacia Gum were in fact negative, why then do gliders still exist in a state in which they depend on some sort of source of calcium to survive? How do they even exist at all? A quick search on the subject would not take any longer than punching in some numbers on your calculator! I think that you might find some interesting info....[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
According to Exotic Nutrition, the gum powder that they sell is from Acacia Mearnsii which is the primary source of gum for gliders in the wild living in Australia.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is interesting. I did not know that there was any Mearnsii avalable. I thought the only acacia gum in powder form available was from the senegal. The senegal is the kind that you get at the health food store.And that makes a huge difference since the senegal is not native to the areas that the Sugar Glider is native to.

Also, gliders get calcium from the bones of small rodents and birds. It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp. I am glad we are discussing this. I know a lot of other people are too.

I don't know if gliders eat eucalyptus or acacia leaves in the wild (mine went crazy for eucalyptus when I gave it to them), but their calcium likely is in the leaves or the sap/gum (or both). Much of the soil in the western half of Australia is very very high in calcium carbonate. In some areas, it is the primary soil mineral. The trees get the CaCO3 from the soil along with other minerals that are dissolved in the groundwater. As a result, wild eucalyptus trees in Australia have a lot of calcium in them - there is no way it wouldn't be in the leaves and sap of any tree that rooted in calcium carbonate soils. So any sap-suckers or leaf-eaters evolving in that environment would get a lot of calcium in their diet. I would be willing to bet that animals from that area that don't need a lot of calcium (or for which calcium can be toxic) have systems to get rid of the excess calcium. I'd also be willing to bet that most animals from that area that store calcium (= anything with bones), have reduced abilities to maintain calcium in their bodies, because so much comes in from the environment that they don't need to invest energy in keeping those systems operational. Also, natural selection wouldn't take out anything that couldn't maintain calcium, so those genes would become common in a higher percentage of the population.

Sugar gliders have reduced abilities to maintain calcium in their bodies, and get HLP when calcium levels in their diet cannot compensate for their inability to maintain it in their bodies. I know it is the case with many exotic reptiles from Australia as well, and I'd bet that other possums in the eucalyptus forests have this problem, too.

Nope, gliders don't eat the leaves. That's one thing that seperates them from their relatives <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
And that makes a huge difference since the senegal is not native to the areas that the Sugar Glider is native to.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Anita, the only difference that I've been able to find to suggest any difference between A.Senegal and A.Mearnsii is the amount of tannins present in the gum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Other than that, they are, from what I've found, identical. I'd really appreciate it if anyone could find any info to the contrary, because I've been searching high and low!

There is a link that I posted previously to a short article in which they did a study in which both gums were fed in a controlled experiment to determine the different results that would arise between feeding the two gums. It seems that there really is no significant differentce, and there is, from what I can find, no reason that A.Senegal is not a suitable replacement for the almost identical, but much more expensive A.Mearnsii gum.

It would be a good thing if we could establish that Gum Arabic from A.Senegal is without a doubt safe for gliders. It is much cheaper, and I personally don't like the fact that only one business carries A.Mearnsii gum. I'd like to have options <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, in a previous thread, Mikey Bustos posted a bit of info on how tannins (which A.Mearnsii contains more of than A.Senegal) aren't necessarily a positive attribute.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Also, gliders get calcium from the bones of small rodents and birds. It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Anita, this may be a good source of calcium, but I'm not sure that the comsumption of vertebrates would be a profound enough source of calcium that it could entirely account for balancing a wild glider's diet?(note: I don't think that what's you're asserting) From what I've heard, can't HLP come on fairly quick? Like within a year or two of having a negative calcium ratio? I'm sure Charlie H might have some input on HLP and how long it takes.

The calcium in the bones would probably only balance out the meat that was eaten at the same time, I could be wrong, I've never really looked at the general calcium ratio of an animal carcass, lol. It is something that is worth considering, but in the reading that I've done, I haven't really seen the consumption of vertebrates to take up too much of their feeding time?

Sarah W, you raised some interesting points. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

I honestly feel like there is adequate enough information to support that Acacia Gum does indeed have a positive calcium ratio.

I'm not sure how it could have a negative ratio, especially after the info that Sarah W presented in reference to the soil composition.

I know we are curious to hear what Randy has to say on the issue?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I am glad we are discussing this. I know a lot of other people are too.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I am too! I am also glad to see a positive exchange of information taking place! Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Here is one good link I found through a search for calcium content of Australian Soil that supports Sarah W's information.
http://www.bettersoils.com.au/module5/5_4.htm
One thing I also noted was that it mentioned that Australian soils were generally deficient in Phosphorous.

Another webpage I visited mentioned how high phosphorous levels actually yellowed the leaves of native plants such as Eucalyptus trees and rendered them unable to uptake the iron that they needed to thrive.

In addition to support provided by other info.....
It would only seem logical that it would follow that the gum of a plant that is detrimentally affected by a phosphorous presence in the soil, and which also grow in calcareous soil, would be very unlikely to contain a notable amount of phosphorous and thus the calcium ratio could undoubtably be assumed to be positive.

I know many people don't think glider university is credible, but they have cited another reference on this web page nearing the bottom about gums having a high ca:p ratio. They found acacia to be beneficial to marmosets to provide more calcium, which also rings true for gliders.

Angelafx and others, here is the complete article if you're interested <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/primates/4n3kelly.htm

This is such an interesting discussion! Thanks for the info about leaf-eating. I bought a eucaluptus tree seedling (checked out the species to make sure it was glider-friendly), and my gliders LOVED the leaves. Sugar attacked the tree and dragged a little branch into the pouch, then lunged at me when I tried to take it away! Perhaps my gliders are just weird, though. They don't like the A. mearnsii gum, either, so I seem to have wasted a purchase when I could have bought another seedling (they ate the tree before it could grow!!!).

With the Acacia Gum, one thing I did was mix it with fruit juice rather than plain water(I also added some pollen grains too). They pay much more attention to it. I also drilled holes in a few branches and packed it into the holes for them to mess with.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I would love to see any information you might have on gliders consumption habits in the wild!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I feel that many of you guys should certainly look into purchasing this book:

The ever notorious Ian D. Hume publication...

Marsupial Nutrition (Cambridge University Press, 1999)

It would answer so many questions. It contains mountains full of info on glider feeding habits (as well as those of other marsupials), and even examines nutritional information and nutrient absorption processes at the digestive level. I'm also rather positive that it would undeniably silence the diet wars that seem to occur every so often in these threads. The information is certainly out there.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I feel that many of you guys should certainly look into purchasing...Marsupial Nutrition (Cambridge University Press, 1999)...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Hume's book runs about $60 and that is a little more than a lot people can squeeze out of their budgets. Other thing is that Hume's book is not in full agreement with other studies that have been done...at least if the public representations of what is in the book are accurate. Mikey.....one thing you need to remember is that folks like yourself who are in an academic environment have much greater access to information than the average glider owner!! [/]

Ah I hear ya, Randy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I simply borrowed the publication from Big_Ern who was kind enough to lend it to me for a little while. If figures of the study may perhaps be in question, it still also does contain plenty of some rather pertinent information (i.e. digestive/absorption information), that is fairly straight forward and concurrent with information found in other studies and even biology textbooks. Also, much of the information within Hume's study has simply been referenced from other existing publications (there's a very helpful 50 pg. reference section).

It's actually not at all difficult to access. For those who may be interested, here is a link to the book from Indigo:

www.chapters.indigo.ca

Randy's right. It may be fairly pricey, but I feel it is certainly worth the purchase for those that are able to afford it. I found it particularly helpful because it depicted the entire picture, analyzing nutrition at various levels (from microscopic molecular analyses to macroscopic ecological analyses to even geographical & evolutionary analyses, for instance). It gives one very in-depth, and best of all 'scientific' perspective on the dietary science/biology of Petaurus breviceps, and marsupials overall, and also is a great reference for methodologies, terminologies, feeding patterns, food species both flora and fauna, other performed field studies, etc. It's a great way to brief oneself on a topic which seems to be so controversial (especially around these nick of the E-woods), and I feel every glider owner should at least attempt to have a good look at it; the particulars and even basics of glider nutrition doesn't have to be so "Greek" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am sure there are several people here on GC who have read it and found it useful in some way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Other thing is that Hume's book is not in full agreement with other studies that have been done...at least if the public representations of what is in the book are accurate.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I'm not sure I understand this, could you clarify this Randy?

Hmmm I picked up "Digestive physiology and nutrition of marsupials" by Ian Hume as well but this book is quite a bit older. Perhaps I can get my hands on a copy "marsupial nutrition" because this is all extremely interesting to me. Does anyone know if the books are similar at all??

I didn't know whether to put this in thread or the discussion on big erns diet, but is this acacia gum what would be suitable for the diet, the reason I decided to post here is perhaps contacting this company would help us in determining the phosphorus amount (if any) in the gum if this is the right stuff. Perhaps they have this information??

For now, I would feel most comfortable suggesting the acacia gum that is available from exotic nutrition
I have been researching using acacia gum from A.Senegal(which is the stuff in the link AngFX posted) and I can't find any reason not to use it, but it's better to stick with the A.Mearnsii gum(the stuff from exotic nutrition)for now.

It would definitely be worthwhile to explore the use of A.Senegal as it is about half the price of A.Mearnsii gum and many places sell it as opposed to A.Mearnsii which is only sold at Exotic Nutrition.

Randy, I remember Pockets inviting you to come to her house to make use of her library of books, you never took her up on the offer?
I'm sure when Mikey is done with the book, we could arrange for it to make it's way to your house.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
By my calculations my gliders from my diet get 84mg of calcium per tablespoon of food....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] I think you missed the point of my post. You were suggesting that the Acacia gum was an important component of your glider diet because of the calcium content and it was my contention that the Acacia gum at best only added about 5 mg of calcium per day to the diet and was not really likely a big factor in in balancing your diet. I don't remember that there was a recommendation on your web site about how much to feed a glider.....smart thing since little gliders don't eat as much as big gliders...but there was a post on the other thread, I think, by Denise who said she was feeding two tablespoons per day.....that's 170 mg of which 5 mg comes from the gum...that's only 3%....you could eliminate the gum totally and not make any significant impact on the Ca:P ratio!! Again, I'm not arguing for or against gum.....only pointing out that the amount in your diet isn't of much consequence in balancing the Ca:P ratio. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...My personal hypothesis is that it is Acacia Gum...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I've no problem with having "personal hypotheses"...I'm have a few of my own...what does give me cause for concern is not clearly defining where the known facts end and the speculation begins. There are lots of relatively new glider owners on this board, many don't have much background with gliders and many don't read these posts as critically as they need to. Hence they are very susceptible to misinterpreting posted information unless it is clearly presented. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...It'd be much more helpful than pointing out the wrongs

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] If someone doesn't point out the wrongs, then lots of newer folks are going to take the information to be true. I'm sure you don't want people to be mislead by the information that you are presenting!!! Veteran glider owners will know when presented information is of questionable value; but less knowledgeable folks will accept the information as correct and perpetuate the misinformation.....I get tired of doing it; but always correct anyone who states the heads of mealies must be cut off before they are consumed or the mealies will kill the glider.



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...I'd appreciate it if people dedicated a little more effort to helping me find the answers rather than telling me the ones that I have are incorrect...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]I never said your ideas were incorrect, only that they were not supported by any hard evidence....big difference!! I'm just as interested as you are to discover the answers to some of these questions. I spend a lot of time reading and communicating with folks who know a lot more than I do about the subject; but, unfortunately, we have to acknowledge that a lot of the answers just aren't known and will probably a puzzle to us for many years to come. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...It is not at all my intention to suggest that Acacia Gum be used to create a positive calcium ratio in the diet of a captive glider...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]Given that the above is true, then what is the purpose of including the A. gum in your diet??? [/] [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I know many people don't think glider university is credible...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]An understatement!! [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...They found acacia to be beneficial to marmosets to provide more calcium, which also rings true for gliders...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]Yeah; but to use their words, they found the results of feeding gum to gliders to be "disappointing." Guess I would want someone to give me some STRONG reasons why I should be willing to accept that nutritional information developed from marmoset studies should apply to gliders??? I read the full article by Cathy Kelly; but it was several years ago when I didn't know enough to appreciate some of the implications. It appears from the article that Ms. Kelly has some quantitative information on the Ca:P ratio of A. gum. Given that we have been spinning our wheels for days over this subject, it seems like a reasonable thing to do would be to contact her at the National Zoo and see what sort of information she might have??? [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Randy, I remember Pockets inviting you to come to her house to make use of her library of books, you never took her up on the offer? I'm sure when Mikey is done with the book, we could arrange for it to make it's way to your house.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] I appreciate the offer. I would be more that happy to cover the postage necessary to get the book to Dallas and then back to Michigan. As to Pockets, she is a 4-5 hour drive from me and last I knew, she still had not unpacked from her move so her library really isn't available to me yet. When the Glider Library of Round Rock does open, I do plan to get a card!! [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...I'm also rather positive that it would undeniably silence the diet wars that seem to occur every so often in these threads...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Dream on, Mikey!! If we ever quit debating glider nutrition, I'd have to buy a lizard, join a reptile board and argue with other reptile owners about whether we should be feeding our animals glider vitamins!! [/] []http://usgn.org/board/images/smiles/rofl3.gif[/]


[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> HAHA... Randy, been there... done that... in my experience, the herptile/reptile diet wars are much more ferocious (and also more subjective) than the glider ones... Some have even turned into physical confrontations and people driving to people's houses to continue debating! Yikes!

I feel it most certainly would silence (and I should have used the word "many") diet wars, particularly those condemning naturalistic diets/diets incorporating native or semi-native food items, because plenty of the wars that seem to arise for instance from some of the perspectives I've brought up wouldn't be heated (and thus locked) if only the scientific publication was read by all those debating; many of the facts and concepts that I've brought up in the past are even clearly outlined (and further elaborated on) in Ian Hume's book, and it would be great if there was an online version, with sections that I simply could post the links to, so that I don't become such a war demon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> around here. lol Unfortunately there isn't one. The book is just full of all sorts of relevent info that many on this board (IMHO, even the moderators here on GC, who I've never held grudges on in the least, because they're only doing their jobs) should have a look at. It's a good starting point and source of available background knowledge and fuel to perspective. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What could possibly balance a gliders diet in the wild other than Acacia Gum? What else do they consume in the wild that is a significant enough source of calcium that would allow them to survive despite their frequent consumption of items that have largely negative calcium ratios?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You took the words right out of my mouth!!!
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I too have heard of HLP setting in much sooner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> However I believe that HLP isn't entirely diet related. Not having a positive calcium ratio is part of it, but living in a "tiny" cage, compared to a forest, even with an exercise wheel does not work the muscles and bones the same as living in trees.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Again, I'm not arguing for or against gum.....only pointing out that the amount in your diet isn't of much consequence in balancing the Ca:P ratio.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Well maybe that's just it maybe replacing the rep-cal with acacia is what ought to be done. Or at least greatly increase the amount. I would feel better about feeding my gliders a naturally growing substance to get the needed calcium, than rely solely on a powdered supplement. It's just more natural!! And while gliders are not humans or marmosets or anything but gliders- common sense tells me natural is the better way.

I posted this in the other thread...



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Not only is that true; but as you and I have discussed before, calcium absorption also depends on the source of the calcium. Although calcium carbonate has a high percentage of calcium, the absorption rate is relative low while other sources of calcium are relatively lower in calcium, they have much higher absorption rates.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I'd just like to quickly point out that this is an exact example of bioavailability, which I always seem to be bringing up. As I had mentioned in a previously locked thread, biovailability may be one reason why one might feel that working with the native food materials could benefit a glider seeing as the entire physiological/digestive makeup has evolved to work with the nutrients provided by the native food types (e.g. pollen, acacia gum, etc.). It is great that there are people like Bourbon out there who have clinically designed a diet that is quite user-freindly and incorporates ingredients that the average North American can handle, but there are also many that I have seen on this board that share the common interest of feeding native flora and botanicals, hence things like Big_Ern's diet is something worth thinking about.

Though certain amounts of nutrients within a diet incorporating less native and foreign food items may compare numerically with a wild glider's diet, it doesn't necessarily mean the gliders will absorb the components at the same rate simply due to the state that nutritents exist. This can be one advantage I would forsee in feeding a diet like Big_Ern's. The animals are designed to process and absorb much of the materials sufficiently, a digestive system which has taken millions of years to develop and fine-tune.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

See, what I mean? Angelafx is one of those people who favour the dietary pro-natural choice. It's certainly something that shouldn't be dismissed or put down, and should instead be further developed through the concerted efforts and input from the great minds here on the board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You were suggesting that the Acacia gum was an important component of your glider diet because of the calcium content and it was my contention that the Acacia gum at best only added about 5 mg of calcium per day to the diet and was not really likely a big factor in in balancing your diet.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I never suggested this in reference to MY diet at all, if you'll read my posts carefully, you'll see this! If you need to see exactly what I said, here it is....

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/b] I'm not sure how this turned into me making an implication about it's role in MY diet????

If Randy would look closer, I was suggesting that I theorize that it plays a significant role in balancing a WILD glider's diet, not mine. I actually openly admit that it could be eliminated without much consequence in reference to it's calcium role


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I never said your ideas were incorrect, only that they were not supported by any hard evidence....big difference!! I'm just as interested as you are to discover the answers to some of these questions.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
If this is so, I'd honestly appreciate it if you'd be a little more careful as to the wording of your posts. Be kind enough to address ME rather than addressing the public about how you feel that my information is unsubstantiated and so on and so forth. I'd appreciate it if you'd present your information from the perpective that, although you don't feel that my information is appropriately substantiated, you would be curious in finding the answers, which you've expressed you are. Take some time to do a search on the subject yourself, post some links, be active in searching for the answers rather than waiting for others to post some info so you can tell them how unsubstantiated it is. I know you value your role as the bearer of truth and logic, but understand, people have feelings.....


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Given that the above is true, then what is the purpose of including the A. gum in your diet???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I never said I was trying to reinvent the wheel, only make one that fits my car better. For the most part I am just using it at a smaller rate because it is very expensive stuff! I posted many many links to information about the role that acacia gum plays in the digestive system as a prebiotic. Aside from the fact that it contains calcium, and is a component from their wild diet, I feel that there are benefits to feeding acacia gum. Try browsing the links I posted for starters.....

One reason that I would like to explore the safety of using A.Senegal gum is because it is much cheaper, and if some of the theories I have about feeding gum are correct, it would not be so expensive to feed an increased amount of gum in my diet or any other diet for that matter.....

[:"green"]I[/] wanted to give a brief overview of the natural history of the masupials.

Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately [:"blue"]65 [/] - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that [:"red"]existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period[/b], mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time[/].

Therefore it's important to note that marsupials are an evolutionary category of animals that have long before broken off the eutheran evolutionary line, and have evolved since then to function under specific environments. Physiologically, gliders are much more different than humans than flying squirrels are to humans, for instance.

Their biological processes have been shaped over those millions of years to cater specifically to the exact flora and fauna of the regions in which they have established themselves. They are not necessarily like rats or dogs, in that they accept a wide variety of food stuffs and can process them easily. There is a reason why sugar gliders are such picky eaters. They are inherently (i.e. by nature) specialized feeders that have evolved for millions and millions of years to extract nutrients that exist in specific forms in specific food substances.

____________________________________________________________

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> To paint a further picture of this and a visual, assuming the top four paragraphs were a timeline of natural history, with each word representing one million years, and the first word of the sentence (the word "I", marked in green) being the million years in which we humans belong to, take a look at how long the masupials have evolved to feed on what they feed on. The four paragraphs contain 146 words (and the Cretacious period began 145 million years ago so the last word of paragraph 4 represents the final million years of the Jurassic period, where animals like Stegosaurus sp. existed), so marsupials began to emerge and evolve separately from eutheran mammals anywhere between the 65th word (the word "existed" in the second paragraph) and the 100th word (the last word "time" in paragraph 2); the area is coloured in red. It's also worth mentioning that the Antarctic land plate was finally separated from the Australian plate in the Eocene Age approximately 52 million years ago (the word "65" in paragraph 2 marked in blue), which marked the beginnings of the indigenous Australian masupial fauna including phalangeroids, which sugar gliders are ofcourse a taxonomic part of. Also, to add to that, in relation to the first word "I" (i.e. the first million years in which we belong to), the existence of humans traces back to cro-magnon man some 120,000 years ago which translates to 12% of the "I". Modern man A.D. accounts for such a tiny miniscule portion of that "I" (only 0.2% of the "I"), and furthermore the 20-30 years in which we've been captivating these masupials and feeding them our human designed diets accounts for even a smaller portion (i.e. 0.002-0.003% of the "I"). It's easy to understand that the gliders are relatively new to these human-designed diets on a digestive level, anyway. This is why many including myself may favour the feeding of native, natural food items, like pollen, specific eucalypt tissues, and acacia gum. Both the gliders and the native flora existent in their ecosystem have evolved together in a continual and rather long process. The two are designed "for" eachother, and I feel this is very important to keep in mind.

Not only are the marsupial gliders different from us sexually, but they are also evolutionarily different from us ("us" being eutheran mammals) biologically and digestively, mostly due to their separate and furthermore geographically isolated evolution.

I am by no means saying that the accepted glider diets out there (BML, Darcy's, etc.) are bad or wrong or unhealthy for gliders, but I am merely explaining why a good naturalistic diet should not be dismissed as an option.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

I got my copy of Hume's "Marsupial Nutrition" from my library, though I'm kinda considering buying it, just to have one to keep. 'S very interesting.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I got my copy of Hume's "Marsupial Nutrition" from my library, though I'm kinda considering buying it, just to have one to keep. 'S very interesting.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] The public library is an excellent source that I use regularly!! Unfortunately, they haven't been able to secure a copy of Hume's book for me, yet. [/]

Oh, when I say 'my library', I mean Michigan State University's library, hehe. Huge building, two wings, four floors apiece plus a basement, Rare Books Collection, Special Collections, etc. 'S a little more than a public library, hence why I could easily lay my hands on a number of books concerning the diet and biology of marsupials.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Yeah; but to use their words, they found the results of feeding gum to gliders to be "disappointing." Guess I would want someone to give me some STRONG reasons why I should be willing to accept that nutritional information developed from marmoset studies should apply to gliders???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is a good reason why.
Here is an excerpt from the article about simulations of gum feeding with captive gumnivores.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Nutritional Factors Associated With Gum-feeding

Gums are a high-energy food source composed mainly of water, complex polysaccharides, calcium, and trace minerals (iron, aluminum, silicon, potassium, magnesium, and sodium) (Nash, 1986). Calcium is important to all animals, especially female callitrichids (tamarins and marmosets) which commonly give birth to twins twice a year. It is during the lactation period that the females are usually impregnated by the male. Therefore, they are developing fetuses while nursing their fast-growing infants, resulting in an increased calcium demand. The calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is high in gums which offsets its ratio in insects, which is low. Because all known wild gummivores also include insects in their diet, combining the two, in captivity, may approach a desired nutritional balance and is recommended to avoid the possibility of nitrogen loss and the loss of protein from the body (Nash, 1986; Garber, 1984a; Sussman, et al., 1984; Coimbra-Filho, et al., 1978; Moynihan 1976)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Not sure if you need any more than this to substantiate acacia gum having a positive calcium ratio?


I'll be the first to tell you that captive gliders are not at all interested in plain acacia gum!
Why would they be?
They get all sorts of sweet fruits and staple foods that taste much better.
It's kind of like humans who don't drink enough water, most don't "because it tastes plain...."
A lot of people I know tend to drink water as a last resort which isn't exactly the healthiest thing to do, lol.

I've fed my gliders plain gum in a dish, not one touched it, they sniffed it curiously.
I added some juice and lo and behold they were licking at it curiously.
I drilled some holes in some branches, added the gum plus some pollen grains for added pleasure, and the holes come clean more often than not!(some prefer it much more than others)
Conclusion, our captive gliders are spoiled by the myriad of feeding pleasures provided by captivity, sort of like humans huh? Not many people thoroughly enjoy eating what's good for them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately 65 - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period, mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> As a vertebrate paleontology student whose adviser is an expert on marsupial evolution, I wanted to clarify some things: mammals (including the three groups alive today) most certainly did coexist with dinosaurs, and marsupials probably diverged from eutherian (=placental) mammals about 110-125 million years ago (dinos died out about 65 million years ago). There are many other groups of mammals that evolved and went extinct before this divergance. Also important to note: the world is not static and things have changed a lot since then - for example, North America was dominated by marsupials rather than eutherians for much of its history, and for much of its existance it was a lot closer to the equator. Both placentals and marsupials got around the world before Australia separated from other landmasses (although they were dominant there at that time), and not all of the marsupials known today are endemic to Australia. Marsupials were dominant in South America until the land bridge with North America was formed, for example, and some of these groups exist today.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Both the gliders and the native flora existent in their ecosystem have evolved together in a continual and rather long process. The two are designed "for" eachother, and I feel this is very important to keep in mind.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Getting back on topic: While I would never use the word "designed", I do agree with what you are saying here - the current environment coevolved with the current fauna, so it makes a lot of sense to look at the natural history of the environment and the animals when trying to reconstruct diets, physiological history, etc. As an aside, I feel it is important to note that marsupials ran around lots of the same environments as eutherians for a big chunk of their evolution, with many different subgroups evolving under different environmental conditions. Some of the gliders' physiology is due to their heritage, which evolved in other locales; however, it is definitely true that very-recently-evolved species like sugar gliders are physiologically adapted to the environments that have been present during their evolution.


Both sides of this argument are making good points: we should consider the natural history of an animal when making diet decisions, because it affects their physiology, which affects how the animal will do on that diet. But the people who have designed diets like BML are also concerned with physiology and glider well-being - people want to make sure their pets don't die from lack of calcium or other deficiencies/excesses, and they want to replicate, more or less, the relative nutrient levels present in their native diet in a country where almost none of their native diet is available. For most people, the acacia gum question will be one like "is this safe to use as a frequent/infrequent treat for my gliders who are on an established diet plan?", but for others, the question is whether to use it as a major component of the animal's diet. Establishing safe levels of use is a good idea, but it seems to depend so heavily on what the gliders are eating the rest of the time. At any rate, this is a good discussion to have, regardless of one's opinion.

Thank you SarahW! That's absolutely wonderful! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for the error on the dinos! Wooops! *turning red* hehe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
and marsupials probably diverged from eutherian (=placental) mammals about 110-125 million years ago (dinos died out about 65 million years ago).

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I didn't want to use those dates (110-125 million years ago) on here because I was afraid some might argue that that date has been purely theorized. Actually, even Ian Hume goes much further than that, specifically mentioning 135 million years ago as the theorized date for the separate and divergent evolution of eutherans and marsupials. I used the years 65 - 100 millions years in my model because of the undeniable marsupial fossils found in that time (trying to be as objective as possible in these forums because some have a habit of nit-picking posts lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). So infact, if I were to fix my model up there to correspond to the theorized dates, it would really be:

____________________________________________________

[:"green"]I[/] wanted to give a brief overview of the natural history of the masupials.

Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately [:"blue"]65 [/] - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period, mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time.

Therefore it's important to note that marsupials are an [:"red"]evolutionary category of animals that have long before broken off the eutheran evolutionary line, and have evolved since then to function under specific environments. Physiologically, gliders[/] are much more different than humans than flying squirrels are to humans, for instance.

Their biological processes have been shaped over those millions of years to cater specifically to the exact flora and fauna of the regions in which they have established themselves. They are not necessarily like rats or dogs, in that they accept a wide variety of food stuffs and can process them easily. There is a reason why sugar gliders are such picky eaters. They are inherently (i.e. by nature) specialized feeders that have evolved for millions and millions of years to extract nutrients that exist in specific forms in specific food substances.

LEGEND:

[:"red"] RED: time range when marsupials and eutherans theoretically began to evolve separately.[/]

[:"blue"] BLUE: Eocene Age when the Australian plate separated from Antarctica 52 million years ago, launching the beginings of Australian indeginous fauna species [/]

[:"green"] Green: the million years we humans belong to [/]

*each word represents 1 million years
________________________________________________________


This means that if we're using the theorized dates, i.e. assuming the above model, the marsupials have diverged from eutherans quite long ago (even longer than my first model), which is the point I was originally trying to make. Sugar Gliders have been evolving separate from we eutheran mammals for such a long time, and this fact should not be ignored in regards to this topic.

Also, it's true that much of the Americas and Antarctica were dominated by marsupials; I didn't mention that since I was refferring to the evolution of the glider marsupials per se, but it's a good thing that Sarah brought that up. In fact the first marsupial fossils were found in North America, e.g. some of the earliest possible marsupial fossils ca. 100 million years old (Cretacious period) which measured to barely 1mm long were found in Texas, and one indisputable marsupial fossil found in western North America about 83 million years old! The central group of marsupials found in North America in those prehistoric times were the Didelphidae, a group which Phalangeroids do not belong to, but it's still interesting to note because there are presently 70 marsupial species existent/recorded to date in the Americas belonging to that group, including the ever notorious American Oppossum.

Also, it's interesting to note that Monotremes (neither marsupials nor eutherans) like Echidnas and Platapuses are another group of primitive mammals alive today that broke off from other mammalian groups very long ago (recovered montreme fossils as old as ca. 110-115 million years ago); these mammals lay eggs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Talking about the Australian marsupial fauna again, the Australian marsupial species dievrsification (the formation of the sugar glider ancestors) took place in the late Eocene to Paleocene Age, post-Creatceous. It's natural history that simply cannot be ignored when placing the species into perspective.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels it's quite important to not forget the evolutionary makeup of an animal when designing diets for them, and it's just another reason why a naturalistic (or semi-naturalistic diet) diet should not be tucked away as "junk science". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So to head back on topic, relating to Acacia Gum, I think the reason Big_ern went public with his diet is to come to a finalization as to how the diet constituents (like Acacia gum) can be safely incorporated into the his glider diet while keeping the diet nutritionally balanced, through the presentation of informed input.

Thank you guys for your eyes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Whoah, very interesting info guys!
It's gonna take me a little while to digest, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Mikey, if you're into marsupial evolution, you might be interested in this: Very late in 2003, some scientists at the Carnegie Museum discovered an undisputed marsupial from China that they named Sinodelphys szalayi. The sediments the fossil was found in were dated at 125 million years old. This is a fantastic fossil, with almost the entire skeleton preserved! It's a beautiful specimen. If you're interested in reading more, head to: this site.

OOOOOooooooooooooo... *my brain is drooling* WOW! That's crazy! Too cool, Sarah! Totally amazing! Thank goodness for carbon dating! To be honest, although marsupial evolution isn't usually a primary focus of interest for me, that certainly is rivetting stuff! Thanks for that!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Ok, so what do you guys think about Acacia Senegal gum being safe for gliders?
Can anyone find any info why we shouldn't feel safe feeding it?
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

In my books they'd be safe...

... but there are always the lurking who seek to set such books on fire or throw them into the mystic river where the pages can get all soaked, and the letterings of ink all bleeding and illegible... to tear its pages and release them into the wind where the bossom of a tempest might consume it thus... so that no new green eyes may lay vision upon its contents and further assist the workings of the undieing sandpaper of truth. I speak of the obscured beings creeping with dissecting eyes with a hidden desire to ever swiftly crush entities, tangible and intangible, that embody the slightest spark of potentiality to pose adversity against the multiple splinters that has become ideals of the norm, a norm which has been incestually borne since the creation of these territories, with a reluctance and unwillingness to allow the front gates of the castle to give way to bretheren outside the solid square; they've ensured that there be no frolicking and dancing together with the inhabitants within the walls of this kingdom, even if we aliens may be on the path to enlightenment and most of all to the truth... So long as we are able to move among them like commoners, following their laws, and utilizing their mannerisms and tactics, our plight will not founder. Cursed be those dissecting eyes from powers beyond the naiive, unaware wanderer's perception, that scowl these planes, and work from a reclusive heirarchy that has long been established around these badlands for ages... Be safe and beware the ides and later days of March, Big Ern... ominous and portentous things lie ahead of thy breath, that seek to envelop the movement, like a choking thorny forest tangling about your conquest and search for the truth, but such things only act as a godly finger pointing in the very direction of the great treasures you seek... Many have trodden that same path upon which your very soles leave tracks in your journey, but have as of yet not had the virtue to entirely succeed in their undertakings. In confidence, I soothsay that the greatest good will come thy way, good sir, should you possess the patience, fortitude, and wisdom to continue on using your sword of objectivity of which you have become a skilled master, to smite the foes of truth, who instead carry flags of ignorance because they have become accustomed to the splinters of the norm and its ideals. The sandpaper of truth, oblivious and righteous, will be triumphant, no matter if it drags with or against the grain, I promise. The slate will be smooth. Just know that I'll be there right behind thee, my friend so long as it's the truth you bear... for the little ones... for the children! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Big_ern, you're on the road to greatness! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

I certainly can't find any info on why NOT though I would like to know if the calcium content varies much or any thing else I can find out, I haven't had a whole lot of luck yet, but found a few good leads.

Mikey you crack me up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Oh and yippee!! My copy of "marsupial nutrition" is waiting for me at the library, Mine didnt have it but they got it in only 1 day for me!!

Big Ern, I have been doing some reading and I can see where Acacia Gum could have its merits in a sugar glider diet. I think it will take some tweaking to figure how much and in what porpotions it should be included to be most beneficial. This is such a gray area since the studies are on wild glider diets. It will have to be adapted to a captive glider diet. But from the studies it appears that you could increase the percentage you are useing by quiet a bit. But that is just guessing based on the Australian research. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My head hurts!!! Are you some kind of wisened sage Mikey?? I ordered a copy of Marsupial Nutrition from Amazon today, i'm sure it will be very interesting, I look forward to reading it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Mikey - you are hilarious! I was sitting here laughing while reading your post and I am at work. Thanks for the great fun! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Big_Ern - I am very interested in finding out as much as I can about your glider diet and this post is very helpful but I have a couple of questions. You stated that you have limited the amount of the acacia gum included in your diet due to the cost of the gum. What changes would you make if the cost were less or the senegal gum was found to be equal in values or safe to use?
Also Charlie H did have a good question as well in that much more should be used than what you currently have.
Just curious and seriously considering switching to your diet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Thanks
Jennifer

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You stated that you have limited the amount of the acacia gum included in your diet due to the cost of the gum. What changes would you make if the cost were less or the senegal gum was found to be equal in values or safe to use?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Well I know I'd definitely use more if it were cheaper. I chose the volume I did because of cost considerations, and also because I didn't want to just jump into feeding gum at a large volume without knowing in full the statistics and principles behind it. I know much more now than I did a year ago about the gum. Also, I feel that using it at the current rate is a good stepping stone towards feeling out if feeding the gum at an increased rate will yield positive results, which I'd imagine it should, but I am not certain.

There is one issue of palatability to consider as acacia gum has no taste and it'd have to be balanced out with some good tasting stuff to get gliders into eating it, if it were to be fed at a much higher volume. One thing I will be working on is something where the gum would be used in a larger proportion and some other things would be replaced. The volume in which they consume it in the wild will have to be used as a point of reference. It is said that the gum accounts for 40% of their dietary intake. Whether that is possible to do cost wise and taste wise remains to be seen, but I'm sure it could be worked out. It's one thing I'd like to explore and do the math on. One thing that has to be kept in mind is that the gum they consume in the wild is hydrated and not powdered so since we are using powdered gum, some mathematical accommodations will have to be made. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the Acacia Senegal gum, I think that it would be great if it was proven 100% safe to be used for gliders, as far as I have seen I see no reason that it should be considered unsafe. One thing I am hoping is that this thread will get some people out and looking for info that speaks for or against it's use so we can either stamp it good or bad.

Soooo....anyone with time on their hands? Check it out! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

It is half the price and there are many more options as far as suppliers. There are suppliers who supply organic gum as well and the gum could be purchased in bulk which could lower the cost even more.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Also, I feel that using it at the current rate is a good stepping stone towards feeling out if feeding the gum at an increased rate will yield positive results....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Seems to me that the best(and perhaps only) way to "feel out" whether feeding gum has a positive result is to feed your mix to a group of gliders for several years and then feed the same mix without the gum to another group and see what differences, if any, can be discerned between the two groups?? I am wondering if you have such a testing process in place?? [/]

lol, no, as of yet I have no testing of that sort in progress.

I think that you are for the most part correct in stating that in order to discern any statistical differences then one would be best off doing a controlled study over a period of years...but I also feel that it is very possible to see more immediate results.

Do you feel that there would be no point in exploring the use of acacia gum at a larger rate unless one were able to perform a controlled study? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"] I/we have gotten into a little trouble in the past by taking the same word to mean different things. Give me a better idea of what you mean by "explore" and I will let you know what I think.

I'm not philosophically opposed to feeding Acacia gum or gum Arabic for that matter, just like to see that any dietary experimentation is done in a reasonably disciplined fashion as opposed to the "shotgun" approach used by some. There are just too many impressionable people in the glider community.....mostly new and relatively uneducated(glider-wise)..... who will take almost anything they read on the Internet as gospel and adopt the idea whether it is good or not. If for no other reason than that, it behooves all of us to rigorously question all new diets that are presented here to make sure there are not any apparent problems as best we can determine at our level of learning. Obviously, you have put a considerable amount of time and effort into investigating alternative diets; but other experimenters might not be so conscientious.

For the foreseeable future, in my judgment, experimentation/research with captive glider diets is going to have to be carried out by the members of the glider community. It probably isn't reasonable to expect that much work is going to be done by the by the scientific community. It was like pulling teeth to accumulate a small fund to finance the GC study and we are still waiting on the detailed results of that study. I hope that folks who choose to experiment with glider diets do in a studied and disciplined fashion and keep their work out of the realm of the general community until it has been reasonably well proven.

And just thinking out loud, if I were to get into the arena of diet experimentation, one of the first things I would do is make some serious connections with folks in the glider homeland.....Australia(not exactly true).....and find out a little more about what they knew about maintaining healthy captive gliders.

BTW, anyone ever give any consideration to the fact that out gliders don't come from Australia; but rather from the nearby islands to the North. Wonder if the the wild Indonesian glider has a diet similar to the Australian glider. Point of fact....it has been suggested that wild Australian glider diets are balanced relative to calcium because the plants they subsist on grow in high calcium soils. Indonesian gliders live on islands that are primarily volcanic in origin and their soils are unlikely to be nearly so high in calcium. I can't state that to an absolute certainty; but it seems to me to be an interesting question??? [/]

NICE!

Well, I've already been underway for some time attempting to research just that, Randy, and I must say that I'm still somewhat at a dead-end with it.

For one thing, I can't seem to get a definite answer as to exact Indonesian locations where gliders have been obtained from (or even exist).

Anyway, from the several locations that were rather off-handedly mentioned by some sources (with no additional in-depth info provided), I've come up with four likely locations...

In Sumatra there exist some commercial forest plantations of Acacia crassicarpa (as well as others but this species is widely used there) as well as several Eucalypt species, and they are used as a resource for the pulp industry in the region. The reason these species have been chosen is because they are quick growers and create great economy for the region and inhabitants. Over 40 000 ha of plantation have been established there primarily on highly organic soils!

In Borneo, in the Kalimantan rainforest, similar forest plantations of various eucalypt and acacia species have been established for the same industrial purposes.

I am guessing (yes, I said "guessing" because it's highly likely) that on the island of Sulawesi, where several marsupials may be found, including the ever notorious couscous, Petaurus breviceps may be found in their thick rainforests, which also have several eucalpyt and acacia species established there, although, there are some sources that claim that their marsupial species list is quite short and perhaps may not include gliders (or phalangeroids for that matter!).

Anyway, I expect that the North American gliders have likely originated from wild populations from any, some, or all of these three island regions, but I can't seem to find any specific information as to the wild gliders' known homelands.

Furthermore, what's even more interesting is that apparently (relating to Randy's concern), these three locations (all in Western Indonesia) have soils that happen to be quite low in pH (i.e. very acidic) and also tend to be quite deficient in calcium and phosphorus, as well as other minerals. Actually, poor soil conditions is a growing concern for the agricultural industry in Indonesia. So, I'd expect the concept of calcium-rich soils and thus calcium rich acacia & eucalypt tissues in these regions wouldn't be likely (unless ofcourse efficiently absorbing and storing calcium in vascular tissues is an innate eucalypt/acacia biological trait, which isn't that unlikely a possibility, seeing as several tubers for instance that grow in the area like sweet potato, do just that, i.e. store calcium... anyway in regards to eucalyptus and acacia doing that, that's speculation right now).

Anyway, should the gliders be from Papua New Guinea (fourth possible location), where several species of Eucalyptus and Acacia also grow, located North of Australia, the soil conditions, also quite low in pH, also tend to be deficient in calcium, phosphorus, and other minerals. So I'm not too sure that the case of having Calcium-rich soils would apply there either...

Interesting, no..? Any input? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with Randy about just anyone jumping on the wagon and useing Big Ern's diet. As BE stated his diet is in the developing stages. Apparently he has done and is still doing research on it's effects.

I can't help but wonder about the gliders reluctance to eat the powdered acacia gum once water is added back to it. If they use it as 40% of their diet in the wild one would think that they would readily eat it. Maybe the dehydration alters the flavor and texture. I know adding water back to powdered milk does not make it a very good substitute for fresh milk.

Mikey, were you ever able to establish contact with Dr. Delaney. I think she spent some time in Indonesia or New Guinea doing a research project on sugar gliders. She may have some input on gliders diets on the islands.
Charlie H

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
For the foreseeable future, in my judgment, experimentation/research with captive glider diets is going to have to be carried out by the members of the glider community. It probably isn't reasonable to expect that much work is going to be done by the by the scientific community. It was like pulling teeth to accumulate a small fund to finance the GC study and we are still waiting on the detailed results of that study.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I totally agree with this. That's why I always wondered why it was suggested that diet studies be left up to the professionals. I haven't seen much work on diet come out of any "professionals"


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I hope that folks who choose to experiment with glider diets do in a studied and disciplined fashion and keep their work out of the realm of the general community until it has been reasonably well proven

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I just wonder what constitutes reasonably well proven? It has been said that Priscilla's diet is not proven(which I do not agree with), and she has many many gliders that are obviously reproducing quite well and staying healthy. I'm just not sure what we as a community expect to see?

What should we use as goals to rate whether or not a diet is successful and doing well?

Also, what are the problems that we see with current diets, and in what ways should we look to improve future diets?

As far as my dietary experimentation is concerned. I left my diet out of the public realm for a year while I used it and kept tabs on the health of my breeding gliders and their joeys. I'm not sure what has been done with other diets....

Everyone holds BML in such high esteem, but I'm curious, did it have any sort of incubation period where it was tested and evaluated prior to use?

This isn't to say that there wouldn't be any benefit from approaching diet in this way. It would be optimal to be able to test a diet in a controlled situation for a number of years before releasing it to prevent the possibility of "bad" info that might be absorbed by newbies, but I don't really think it's entirely realistic at this point. I don't know of anyone who has enough gliders or the time or the money or the patience to do such a thing and on top of it all not whisper a word to the glider community. The only people that you hear stating that their diet has undergone clinical feeding trials are people that market glider pellets, lol, so you've gotta wonder how much they really know?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I have to agree with Randy about just anyone jumping on the wagon and useing Big Ern's diet. As BE stated his diet is in the developing stages. Apparently he has done and is still doing research on it's effects.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't recall Randy ever stating this?
I'm sure it has been implied......

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
just like to see that any dietary experimentation is done in a reasonably disciplined fashion as opposed to the "shotgun" approach used by some

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Maybe this is what you may be thinking of?

lol, "shotgun approach" would probably not be an accurate way to describe the manner in which I approached my diet, so I would think that Randy wasn't referring to me...
Titling my approach a "shotgun approach" would be a bit of an unfair assumption wouldn't it? I'd like to think that I applied some "discipline" to my dietary experimentation.

I guess my open attitude towards modifying it in the future might be allowing my diet to be perceived as incomplete or poorly thought out, but that would be an assumption and also a matter of opinion since no one really(except for a few people) has the complete statistics yet!

I think it would be less wise to leave my diet infinitely static and a closed case since we don't know everything about glider diet, or do we? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" />

I also wonder how much "rigorous testing" has been performed on other diets?

I would assume there must have been a lot, or maybe not?

It seems to me like they(designers of other diets) took what worked, got some input from some people, and "modified" it to fit their situation, no?

Honestly I don't care to push people into making the decision to feed my diet.
diet is something that people have to research and decide for themselves
More importantly I just want people to think and open up to ideas that I think are very important...
But....I also don't want to watch my diet get shot down.

After one has facts and figures and science to work with, then by all means, feel free!

If I were to express my personal opinion, I'd caution against using other diets, but that wouldn't be right, because what doesn't work for me might work well, and has for other people's gliders!

I can express however that on other diets, my gliders rejected, cannibalized, and the joeys grew slow.
All of my gliders generally looked unhealthy and ate poorly.
I had to go to the vet on a few occasions to get some of my gliders treated for UTI's.
My gliders were not very active or vibrant.

Since I switched, my gliders have not rejected one joey, or had to go to the vet for any health related issues.
They're happy, and active and their joeys grow well and all is good!

I'd have a hard time imagining that this could happen if my diet were unhealthy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Bottom line, what works for some gliders does not work for all.
Research, make informed decisions, feed what you feel is right and what you feel will make your gliders most healthy, may it be BML, Brisky's, cat food, or my diet.
The decision lies with the owner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> @ Big_Ern... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a side note, I can't seem to find find the exact year in which the current BML recipe was finalized and created, or even the year of its infancy. Seems I'm able find the origin dates of other diets, but can't for BML. Can someone who knows when BML was first created please answer this question for me? Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Charlie, no I wasn't able to get in touch with Dr. Delaney, seeing as I wasn't given a proper contact. I tried calling a hotline that someone gave and it didn't work. She's no where to be found <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and I've tried for a long time to find her. I'm sure she would have long answered many questions.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Mikey, try this link:

http://www.aemv.org/w.html

Charlie H

Hey thanks, Charlie! I just finished shooting her an email.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

As a side note on this one- not a sugar glider owner yet, but planning on it after we move (house for sale).. I take acacia for a stomach ailment. if this is really the same stuff that is good for the Sugar gliders, then I'll have to look into purchasing even more, but I buy 1 pound bags currently at a much lower price then I saw on the websites mentioned in this post.

Amie

Do you take it for IBS?
My lady Lindsay also just started taking acacia gum that we purchased from a website HelpforIBS.com
It's been doing pretty good for her so far <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Yes, the stuff is pretty cheap there and also organic.

and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
Welcome to GC, I used to live in Ann Arbor, my momma still does! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I can't help but wonder about the gliders reluctance to eat the powdered acacia gum once water is added back to it. If they use it as 40% of their diet in the wild one would think that they would readily eat it. Maybe the dehydration alters the flavor and texture. I know adding water back to powdered milk does not make it a very good substitute for fresh milk.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> The answer to this I think is pretty simple. It has no taste really. Gliders in captivity are spoiled. I think as a human it would be pretty boring if everything were offered unseasoned and raw just as it were to be found in nature. I could only imagine that a glider would feel the same after eating "wonderfully flavored cuisine" and then being offered something with no flavor at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yes I take it for IBS.. and we love the A2 area. its been making me so much better.. and I'd like to find out more about usign the same thing as a source of calcium- to be honest both for the gliders in our future and for me.

Hello Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I believe I can help you with the native locations of several of the petauridae species & sub species.

Also am absolutely elated that someone (besides myself) have woke a few people up to Ian Hume's publications - something I have tried to do here since he published
"Marsupial Nutrition" in 1999 (lol)

Big Ern <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> - many hugs to you!! You have some real lucky "Little People" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

I have done a tiny bit of research in this area for several years - but mostly keep quiet, just got tired of the arguing & most people don't seem to want to expand their thinking of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s native flora & it's importance.

Randy - my books are the 1st items I unpacked - excluding the "Little People" of course & my 20 yr young cockatoo! LOL
Welcome anytime!

Mikey - my exotic veterinarians are all from MSU & an excellent bunch I must say - sure do miss their company!
Email me!

Heyyyyy Pockets! Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad you caught this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Totally oftop, but, I need to email you and find out about your vets in E.Lansing
People are always asking me for vet references in that area, also, I'd always be interested to find more vets that know a good deal about gliders, maybe some that have a particular interest in them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PM sent, Pockets! Truly, a breath of fresh air... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />