Angelafx and others, here is the complete article if you're interested <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/primates/4n3kelly.htm

This is such an interesting discussion! Thanks for the info about leaf-eating. I bought a eucaluptus tree seedling (checked out the species to make sure it was glider-friendly), and my gliders LOVED the leaves. Sugar attacked the tree and dragged a little branch into the pouch, then lunged at me when I tried to take it away! Perhaps my gliders are just weird, though. They don't like the A. mearnsii gum, either, so I seem to have wasted a purchase when I could have bought another seedling (they ate the tree before it could grow!!!).

With the Acacia Gum, one thing I did was mix it with fruit juice rather than plain water(I also added some pollen grains too). They pay much more attention to it. I also drilled holes in a few branches and packed it into the holes for them to mess with.

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I would love to see any information you might have on gliders consumption habits in the wild!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I feel that many of you guys should certainly look into purchasing this book:

The ever notorious Ian D. Hume publication...

Marsupial Nutrition (Cambridge University Press, 1999)

It would answer so many questions. It contains mountains full of info on glider feeding habits (as well as those of other marsupials), and even examines nutritional information and nutrient absorption processes at the digestive level. I'm also rather positive that it would undeniably silence the diet wars that seem to occur every so often in these threads. The information is certainly out there.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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.....I feel that many of you guys should certainly look into purchasing...Marsupial Nutrition (Cambridge University Press, 1999)...

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[:"blue"] Hume's book runs about $60 and that is a little more than a lot people can squeeze out of their budgets. Other thing is that Hume's book is not in full agreement with other studies that have been done...at least if the public representations of what is in the book are accurate. Mikey.....one thing you need to remember is that folks like yourself who are in an academic environment have much greater access to information than the average glider owner!! [/]

Ah I hear ya, Randy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I simply borrowed the publication from Big_Ern who was kind enough to lend it to me for a little while. If figures of the study may perhaps be in question, it still also does contain plenty of some rather pertinent information (i.e. digestive/absorption information), that is fairly straight forward and concurrent with information found in other studies and even biology textbooks. Also, much of the information within Hume's study has simply been referenced from other existing publications (there's a very helpful 50 pg. reference section).

It's actually not at all difficult to access. For those who may be interested, here is a link to the book from Indigo:

www.chapters.indigo.ca

Randy's right. It may be fairly pricey, but I feel it is certainly worth the purchase for those that are able to afford it. I found it particularly helpful because it depicted the entire picture, analyzing nutrition at various levels (from microscopic molecular analyses to macroscopic ecological analyses to even geographical & evolutionary analyses, for instance). It gives one very in-depth, and best of all 'scientific' perspective on the dietary science/biology of Petaurus breviceps, and marsupials overall, and also is a great reference for methodologies, terminologies, feeding patterns, food species both flora and fauna, other performed field studies, etc. It's a great way to brief oneself on a topic which seems to be so controversial (especially around these nick of the E-woods), and I feel every glider owner should at least attempt to have a good look at it; the particulars and even basics of glider nutrition doesn't have to be so "Greek" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am sure there are several people here on GC who have read it and found it useful in some way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Other thing is that Hume's book is not in full agreement with other studies that have been done...at least if the public representations of what is in the book are accurate.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I'm not sure I understand this, could you clarify this Randy?

Hmmm I picked up "Digestive physiology and nutrition of marsupials" by Ian Hume as well but this book is quite a bit older. Perhaps I can get my hands on a copy "marsupial nutrition" because this is all extremely interesting to me. Does anyone know if the books are similar at all??

I didn't know whether to put this in thread or the discussion on big erns diet, but is this acacia gum what would be suitable for the diet, the reason I decided to post here is perhaps contacting this company would help us in determining the phosphorus amount (if any) in the gum if this is the right stuff. Perhaps they have this information??

For now, I would feel most comfortable suggesting the acacia gum that is available from exotic nutrition
I have been researching using acacia gum from A.Senegal(which is the stuff in the link AngFX posted) and I can't find any reason not to use it, but it's better to stick with the A.Mearnsii gum(the stuff from exotic nutrition)for now.

It would definitely be worthwhile to explore the use of A.Senegal as it is about half the price of A.Mearnsii gum and many places sell it as opposed to A.Mearnsii which is only sold at Exotic Nutrition.

Randy, I remember Pockets inviting you to come to her house to make use of her library of books, you never took her up on the offer?
I'm sure when Mikey is done with the book, we could arrange for it to make it's way to your house.

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By my calculations my gliders from my diet get 84mg of calcium per tablespoon of food....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] I think you missed the point of my post. You were suggesting that the Acacia gum was an important component of your glider diet because of the calcium content and it was my contention that the Acacia gum at best only added about 5 mg of calcium per day to the diet and was not really likely a big factor in in balancing your diet. I don't remember that there was a recommendation on your web site about how much to feed a glider.....smart thing since little gliders don't eat as much as big gliders...but there was a post on the other thread, I think, by Denise who said she was feeding two tablespoons per day.....that's 170 mg of which 5 mg comes from the gum...that's only 3%....you could eliminate the gum totally and not make any significant impact on the Ca:P ratio!! Again, I'm not arguing for or against gum.....only pointing out that the amount in your diet isn't of much consequence in balancing the Ca:P ratio. [/]



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...My personal hypothesis is that it is Acacia Gum...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I've no problem with having "personal hypotheses"...I'm have a few of my own...what does give me cause for concern is not clearly defining where the known facts end and the speculation begins. There are lots of relatively new glider owners on this board, many don't have much background with gliders and many don't read these posts as critically as they need to. Hence they are very susceptible to misinterpreting posted information unless it is clearly presented. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...It'd be much more helpful than pointing out the wrongs

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] If someone doesn't point out the wrongs, then lots of newer folks are going to take the information to be true. I'm sure you don't want people to be mislead by the information that you are presenting!!! Veteran glider owners will know when presented information is of questionable value; but less knowledgeable folks will accept the information as correct and perpetuate the misinformation.....I get tired of doing it; but always correct anyone who states the heads of mealies must be cut off before they are consumed or the mealies will kill the glider.



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...I'd appreciate it if people dedicated a little more effort to helping me find the answers rather than telling me the ones that I have are incorrect...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]I never said your ideas were incorrect, only that they were not supported by any hard evidence....big difference!! I'm just as interested as you are to discover the answers to some of these questions. I spend a lot of time reading and communicating with folks who know a lot more than I do about the subject; but, unfortunately, we have to acknowledge that a lot of the answers just aren't known and will probably a puzzle to us for many years to come. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...It is not at all my intention to suggest that Acacia Gum be used to create a positive calcium ratio in the diet of a captive glider...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]Given that the above is true, then what is the purpose of including the A. gum in your diet??? [/] [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I know many people don't think glider university is credible...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]An understatement!! [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...They found acacia to be beneficial to marmosets to provide more calcium, which also rings true for gliders...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]Yeah; but to use their words, they found the results of feeding gum to gliders to be "disappointing." Guess I would want someone to give me some STRONG reasons why I should be willing to accept that nutritional information developed from marmoset studies should apply to gliders??? I read the full article by Cathy Kelly; but it was several years ago when I didn't know enough to appreciate some of the implications. It appears from the article that Ms. Kelly has some quantitative information on the Ca:P ratio of A. gum. Given that we have been spinning our wheels for days over this subject, it seems like a reasonable thing to do would be to contact her at the National Zoo and see what sort of information she might have??? [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Randy, I remember Pockets inviting you to come to her house to make use of her library of books, you never took her up on the offer? I'm sure when Mikey is done with the book, we could arrange for it to make it's way to your house.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] I appreciate the offer. I would be more that happy to cover the postage necessary to get the book to Dallas and then back to Michigan. As to Pockets, she is a 4-5 hour drive from me and last I knew, she still had not unpacked from her move so her library really isn't available to me yet. When the Glider Library of Round Rock does open, I do plan to get a card!! [/]

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...I'm also rather positive that it would undeniably silence the diet wars that seem to occur every so often in these threads...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Dream on, Mikey!! If we ever quit debating glider nutrition, I'd have to buy a lizard, join a reptile board and argue with other reptile owners about whether we should be feeding our animals glider vitamins!! [/] []http://usgn.org/board/images/smiles/rofl3.gif[/]


[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> HAHA... Randy, been there... done that... in my experience, the herptile/reptile diet wars are much more ferocious (and also more subjective) than the glider ones... Some have even turned into physical confrontations and people driving to people's houses to continue debating! Yikes!

I feel it most certainly would silence (and I should have used the word "many") diet wars, particularly those condemning naturalistic diets/diets incorporating native or semi-native food items, because plenty of the wars that seem to arise for instance from some of the perspectives I've brought up wouldn't be heated (and thus locked) if only the scientific publication was read by all those debating; many of the facts and concepts that I've brought up in the past are even clearly outlined (and further elaborated on) in Ian Hume's book, and it would be great if there was an online version, with sections that I simply could post the links to, so that I don't become such a war demon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> around here. lol Unfortunately there isn't one. The book is just full of all sorts of relevent info that many on this board (IMHO, even the moderators here on GC, who I've never held grudges on in the least, because they're only doing their jobs) should have a look at. It's a good starting point and source of available background knowledge and fuel to perspective. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What could possibly balance a gliders diet in the wild other than Acacia Gum? What else do they consume in the wild that is a significant enough source of calcium that would allow them to survive despite their frequent consumption of items that have largely negative calcium ratios?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You took the words right out of my mouth!!!
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It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I too have heard of HLP setting in much sooner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> However I believe that HLP isn't entirely diet related. Not having a positive calcium ratio is part of it, but living in a "tiny" cage, compared to a forest, even with an exercise wheel does not work the muscles and bones the same as living in trees.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Again, I'm not arguing for or against gum.....only pointing out that the amount in your diet isn't of much consequence in balancing the Ca:P ratio.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Well maybe that's just it maybe replacing the rep-cal with acacia is what ought to be done. Or at least greatly increase the amount. I would feel better about feeding my gliders a naturally growing substance to get the needed calcium, than rely solely on a powdered supplement. It's just more natural!! And while gliders are not humans or marmosets or anything but gliders- common sense tells me natural is the better way.

I posted this in the other thread...



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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Not only is that true; but as you and I have discussed before, calcium absorption also depends on the source of the calcium. Although calcium carbonate has a high percentage of calcium, the absorption rate is relative low while other sources of calcium are relatively lower in calcium, they have much higher absorption rates.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I'd just like to quickly point out that this is an exact example of bioavailability, which I always seem to be bringing up. As I had mentioned in a previously locked thread, biovailability may be one reason why one might feel that working with the native food materials could benefit a glider seeing as the entire physiological/digestive makeup has evolved to work with the nutrients provided by the native food types (e.g. pollen, acacia gum, etc.). It is great that there are people like Bourbon out there who have clinically designed a diet that is quite user-freindly and incorporates ingredients that the average North American can handle, but there are also many that I have seen on this board that share the common interest of feeding native flora and botanicals, hence things like Big_Ern's diet is something worth thinking about.

Though certain amounts of nutrients within a diet incorporating less native and foreign food items may compare numerically with a wild glider's diet, it doesn't necessarily mean the gliders will absorb the components at the same rate simply due to the state that nutritents exist. This can be one advantage I would forsee in feeding a diet like Big_Ern's. The animals are designed to process and absorb much of the materials sufficiently, a digestive system which has taken millions of years to develop and fine-tune.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

See, what I mean? Angelafx is one of those people who favour the dietary pro-natural choice. It's certainly something that shouldn't be dismissed or put down, and should instead be further developed through the concerted efforts and input from the great minds here on the board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You were suggesting that the Acacia gum was an important component of your glider diet because of the calcium content and it was my contention that the Acacia gum at best only added about 5 mg of calcium per day to the diet and was not really likely a big factor in in balancing your diet.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I never suggested this in reference to MY diet at all, if you'll read my posts carefully, you'll see this! If you need to see exactly what I said, here it is....

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/b] I'm not sure how this turned into me making an implication about it's role in MY diet????

If Randy would look closer, I was suggesting that I theorize that it plays a significant role in balancing a WILD glider's diet, not mine. I actually openly admit that it could be eliminated without much consequence in reference to it's calcium role


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I never said your ideas were incorrect, only that they were not supported by any hard evidence....big difference!! I'm just as interested as you are to discover the answers to some of these questions.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
If this is so, I'd honestly appreciate it if you'd be a little more careful as to the wording of your posts. Be kind enough to address ME rather than addressing the public about how you feel that my information is unsubstantiated and so on and so forth. I'd appreciate it if you'd present your information from the perpective that, although you don't feel that my information is appropriately substantiated, you would be curious in finding the answers, which you've expressed you are. Take some time to do a search on the subject yourself, post some links, be active in searching for the answers rather than waiting for others to post some info so you can tell them how unsubstantiated it is. I know you value your role as the bearer of truth and logic, but understand, people have feelings.....


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Given that the above is true, then what is the purpose of including the A. gum in your diet???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I never said I was trying to reinvent the wheel, only make one that fits my car better. For the most part I am just using it at a smaller rate because it is very expensive stuff! I posted many many links to information about the role that acacia gum plays in the digestive system as a prebiotic. Aside from the fact that it contains calcium, and is a component from their wild diet, I feel that there are benefits to feeding acacia gum. Try browsing the links I posted for starters.....

One reason that I would like to explore the safety of using A.Senegal gum is because it is much cheaper, and if some of the theories I have about feeding gum are correct, it would not be so expensive to feed an increased amount of gum in my diet or any other diet for that matter.....

[:"green"]I[/] wanted to give a brief overview of the natural history of the masupials.

Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately [:"blue"]65 [/] - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that [:"red"]existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period[/b], mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time[/].

Therefore it's important to note that marsupials are an evolutionary category of animals that have long before broken off the eutheran evolutionary line, and have evolved since then to function under specific environments. Physiologically, gliders are much more different than humans than flying squirrels are to humans, for instance.

Their biological processes have been shaped over those millions of years to cater specifically to the exact flora and fauna of the regions in which they have established themselves. They are not necessarily like rats or dogs, in that they accept a wide variety of food stuffs and can process them easily. There is a reason why sugar gliders are such picky eaters. They are inherently (i.e. by nature) specialized feeders that have evolved for millions and millions of years to extract nutrients that exist in specific forms in specific food substances.

____________________________________________________________

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> To paint a further picture of this and a visual, assuming the top four paragraphs were a timeline of natural history, with each word representing one million years, and the first word of the sentence (the word "I", marked in green) being the million years in which we humans belong to, take a look at how long the masupials have evolved to feed on what they feed on. The four paragraphs contain 146 words (and the Cretacious period began 145 million years ago so the last word of paragraph 4 represents the final million years of the Jurassic period, where animals like Stegosaurus sp. existed), so marsupials began to emerge and evolve separately from eutheran mammals anywhere between the 65th word (the word "existed" in the second paragraph) and the 100th word (the last word "time" in paragraph 2); the area is coloured in red. It's also worth mentioning that the Antarctic land plate was finally separated from the Australian plate in the Eocene Age approximately 52 million years ago (the word "65" in paragraph 2 marked in blue), which marked the beginnings of the indigenous Australian masupial fauna including phalangeroids, which sugar gliders are ofcourse a taxonomic part of. Also, to add to that, in relation to the first word "I" (i.e. the first million years in which we belong to), the existence of humans traces back to cro-magnon man some 120,000 years ago which translates to 12% of the "I". Modern man A.D. accounts for such a tiny miniscule portion of that "I" (only 0.2% of the "I"), and furthermore the 20-30 years in which we've been captivating these masupials and feeding them our human designed diets accounts for even a smaller portion (i.e. 0.002-0.003% of the "I"). It's easy to understand that the gliders are relatively new to these human-designed diets on a digestive level, anyway. This is why many including myself may favour the feeding of native, natural food items, like pollen, specific eucalypt tissues, and acacia gum. Both the gliders and the native flora existent in their ecosystem have evolved together in a continual and rather long process. The two are designed "for" eachother, and I feel this is very important to keep in mind.

Not only are the marsupial gliders different from us sexually, but they are also evolutionarily different from us ("us" being eutheran mammals) biologically and digestively, mostly due to their separate and furthermore geographically isolated evolution.

I am by no means saying that the accepted glider diets out there (BML, Darcy's, etc.) are bad or wrong or unhealthy for gliders, but I am merely explaining why a good naturalistic diet should not be dismissed as an option.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

I got my copy of Hume's "Marsupial Nutrition" from my library, though I'm kinda considering buying it, just to have one to keep. 'S very interesting.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I got my copy of Hume's "Marsupial Nutrition" from my library, though I'm kinda considering buying it, just to have one to keep. 'S very interesting.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] The public library is an excellent source that I use regularly!! Unfortunately, they haven't been able to secure a copy of Hume's book for me, yet. [/]

Oh, when I say 'my library', I mean Michigan State University's library, hehe. Huge building, two wings, four floors apiece plus a basement, Rare Books Collection, Special Collections, etc. 'S a little more than a public library, hence why I could easily lay my hands on a number of books concerning the diet and biology of marsupials.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Yeah; but to use their words, they found the results of feeding gum to gliders to be "disappointing." Guess I would want someone to give me some STRONG reasons why I should be willing to accept that nutritional information developed from marmoset studies should apply to gliders???

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is a good reason why.
Here is an excerpt from the article about simulations of gum feeding with captive gumnivores.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Nutritional Factors Associated With Gum-feeding

Gums are a high-energy food source composed mainly of water, complex polysaccharides, calcium, and trace minerals (iron, aluminum, silicon, potassium, magnesium, and sodium) (Nash, 1986). Calcium is important to all animals, especially female callitrichids (tamarins and marmosets) which commonly give birth to twins twice a year. It is during the lactation period that the females are usually impregnated by the male. Therefore, they are developing fetuses while nursing their fast-growing infants, resulting in an increased calcium demand. The calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is high in gums which offsets its ratio in insects, which is low. Because all known wild gummivores also include insects in their diet, combining the two, in captivity, may approach a desired nutritional balance and is recommended to avoid the possibility of nitrogen loss and the loss of protein from the body (Nash, 1986; Garber, 1984a; Sussman, et al., 1984; Coimbra-Filho, et al., 1978; Moynihan 1976)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Not sure if you need any more than this to substantiate acacia gum having a positive calcium ratio?


I'll be the first to tell you that captive gliders are not at all interested in plain acacia gum!
Why would they be?
They get all sorts of sweet fruits and staple foods that taste much better.
It's kind of like humans who don't drink enough water, most don't "because it tastes plain...."
A lot of people I know tend to drink water as a last resort which isn't exactly the healthiest thing to do, lol.

I've fed my gliders plain gum in a dish, not one touched it, they sniffed it curiously.
I added some juice and lo and behold they were licking at it curiously.
I drilled some holes in some branches, added the gum plus some pollen grains for added pleasure, and the holes come clean more often than not!(some prefer it much more than others)
Conclusion, our captive gliders are spoiled by the myriad of feeding pleasures provided by captivity, sort of like humans huh? Not many people thoroughly enjoy eating what's good for them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately 65 - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period, mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> As a vertebrate paleontology student whose adviser is an expert on marsupial evolution, I wanted to clarify some things: mammals (including the three groups alive today) most certainly did coexist with dinosaurs, and marsupials probably diverged from eutherian (=placental) mammals about 110-125 million years ago (dinos died out about 65 million years ago). There are many other groups of mammals that evolved and went extinct before this divergance. Also important to note: the world is not static and things have changed a lot since then - for example, North America was dominated by marsupials rather than eutherians for much of its history, and for much of its existance it was a lot closer to the equator. Both placentals and marsupials got around the world before Australia separated from other landmasses (although they were dominant there at that time), and not all of the marsupials known today are endemic to Australia. Marsupials were dominant in South America until the land bridge with North America was formed, for example, and some of these groups exist today.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Both the gliders and the native flora existent in their ecosystem have evolved together in a continual and rather long process. The two are designed "for" eachother, and I feel this is very important to keep in mind.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Getting back on topic: While I would never use the word "designed", I do agree with what you are saying here - the current environment coevolved with the current fauna, so it makes a lot of sense to look at the natural history of the environment and the animals when trying to reconstruct diets, physiological history, etc. As an aside, I feel it is important to note that marsupials ran around lots of the same environments as eutherians for a big chunk of their evolution, with many different subgroups evolving under different environmental conditions. Some of the gliders' physiology is due to their heritage, which evolved in other locales; however, it is definitely true that very-recently-evolved species like sugar gliders are physiologically adapted to the environments that have been present during their evolution.


Both sides of this argument are making good points: we should consider the natural history of an animal when making diet decisions, because it affects their physiology, which affects how the animal will do on that diet. But the people who have designed diets like BML are also concerned with physiology and glider well-being - people want to make sure their pets don't die from lack of calcium or other deficiencies/excesses, and they want to replicate, more or less, the relative nutrient levels present in their native diet in a country where almost none of their native diet is available. For most people, the acacia gum question will be one like "is this safe to use as a frequent/infrequent treat for my gliders who are on an established diet plan?", but for others, the question is whether to use it as a major component of the animal's diet. Establishing safe levels of use is a good idea, but it seems to depend so heavily on what the gliders are eating the rest of the time. At any rate, this is a good discussion to have, regardless of one's opinion.

Thank you SarahW! That's absolutely wonderful! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for the error on the dinos! Wooops! *turning red* hehe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
and marsupials probably diverged from eutherian (=placental) mammals about 110-125 million years ago (dinos died out about 65 million years ago).

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I didn't want to use those dates (110-125 million years ago) on here because I was afraid some might argue that that date has been purely theorized. Actually, even Ian Hume goes much further than that, specifically mentioning 135 million years ago as the theorized date for the separate and divergent evolution of eutherans and marsupials. I used the years 65 - 100 millions years in my model because of the undeniable marsupial fossils found in that time (trying to be as objective as possible in these forums because some have a habit of nit-picking posts lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). So infact, if I were to fix my model up there to correspond to the theorized dates, it would really be:

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[:"green"]I[/] wanted to give a brief overview of the natural history of the masupials.

Evolutionally, the separation between eutheran mammals and marsupial mammals began in the Cretacious period of the Mezozoic Era. Teeth of the earliest undoubted marsupials found to date (in Western North America) are from the late Cretacious Period, approximately [:"blue"]65 [/] - 100 million years ago. Incase, you needed a mental picture, species that existed in the late Cretacious include Triceratops sp, Tyrannosaurus Rex sp, Brachiosaur sp, etc. Though mammals and dinosaurs did not exist in the same time period, mammal-like animals had already begun to emerge in that time.

Therefore it's important to note that marsupials are an [:"red"]evolutionary category of animals that have long before broken off the eutheran evolutionary line, and have evolved since then to function under specific environments. Physiologically, gliders[/] are much more different than humans than flying squirrels are to humans, for instance.

Their biological processes have been shaped over those millions of years to cater specifically to the exact flora and fauna of the regions in which they have established themselves. They are not necessarily like rats or dogs, in that they accept a wide variety of food stuffs and can process them easily. There is a reason why sugar gliders are such picky eaters. They are inherently (i.e. by nature) specialized feeders that have evolved for millions and millions of years to extract nutrients that exist in specific forms in specific food substances.

LEGEND:

[:"red"] RED: time range when marsupials and eutherans theoretically began to evolve separately.[/]

[:"blue"] BLUE: Eocene Age when the Australian plate separated from Antarctica 52 million years ago, launching the beginings of Australian indeginous fauna species [/]

[:"green"] Green: the million years we humans belong to [/]

*each word represents 1 million years
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This means that if we're using the theorized dates, i.e. assuming the above model, the marsupials have diverged from eutherans quite long ago (even longer than my first model), which is the point I was originally trying to make. Sugar Gliders have been evolving separate from we eutheran mammals for such a long time, and this fact should not be ignored in regards to this topic.

Also, it's true that much of the Americas and Antarctica were dominated by marsupials; I didn't mention that since I was refferring to the evolution of the glider marsupials per se, but it's a good thing that Sarah brought that up. In fact the first marsupial fossils were found in North America, e.g. some of the earliest possible marsupial fossils ca. 100 million years old (Cretacious period) which measured to barely 1mm long were found in Texas, and one indisputable marsupial fossil found in western North America about 83 million years old! The central group of marsupials found in North America in those prehistoric times were the Didelphidae, a group which Phalangeroids do not belong to, but it's still interesting to note because there are presently 70 marsupial species existent/recorded to date in the Americas belonging to that group, including the ever notorious American Oppossum.

Also, it's interesting to note that Monotremes (neither marsupials nor eutherans) like Echidnas and Platapuses are another group of primitive mammals alive today that broke off from other mammalian groups very long ago (recovered montreme fossils as old as ca. 110-115 million years ago); these mammals lay eggs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Talking about the Australian marsupial fauna again, the Australian marsupial species dievrsification (the formation of the sugar glider ancestors) took place in the late Eocene to Paleocene Age, post-Creatceous. It's natural history that simply cannot be ignored when placing the species into perspective.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels it's quite important to not forget the evolutionary makeup of an animal when designing diets for them, and it's just another reason why a naturalistic (or semi-naturalistic diet) diet should not be tucked away as "junk science". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So to head back on topic, relating to Acacia Gum, I think the reason Big_ern went public with his diet is to come to a finalization as to how the diet constituents (like Acacia gum) can be safely incorporated into the his glider diet while keeping the diet nutritionally balanced, through the presentation of informed input.

Thank you guys for your eyes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Whoah, very interesting info guys!
It's gonna take me a little while to digest, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Mikey, if you're into marsupial evolution, you might be interested in this: Very late in 2003, some scientists at the Carnegie Museum discovered an undisputed marsupial from China that they named Sinodelphys szalayi. The sediments the fossil was found in were dated at 125 million years old. This is a fantastic fossil, with almost the entire skeleton preserved! It's a beautiful specimen. If you're interested in reading more, head to: this site.

OOOOOooooooooooooo... *my brain is drooling* WOW! That's crazy! Too cool, Sarah! Totally amazing! Thank goodness for carbon dating! To be honest, although marsupial evolution isn't usually a primary focus of interest for me, that certainly is rivetting stuff! Thanks for that!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Ok, so what do you guys think about Acacia Senegal gum being safe for gliders?
Can anyone find any info why we shouldn't feel safe feeding it?
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

In my books they'd be safe...

... but there are always the lurking who seek to set such books on fire or throw them into the mystic river where the pages can get all soaked, and the letterings of ink all bleeding and illegible... to tear its pages and release them into the wind where the bossom of a tempest might consume it thus... so that no new green eyes may lay vision upon its contents and further assist the workings of the undieing sandpaper of truth. I speak of the obscured beings creeping with dissecting eyes with a hidden desire to ever swiftly crush entities, tangible and intangible, that embody the slightest spark of potentiality to pose adversity against the multiple splinters that has become ideals of the norm, a norm which has been incestually borne since the creation of these territories, with a reluctance and unwillingness to allow the front gates of the castle to give way to bretheren outside the solid square; they've ensured that there be no frolicking and dancing together with the inhabitants within the walls of this kingdom, even if we aliens may be on the path to enlightenment and most of all to the truth... So long as we are able to move among them like commoners, following their laws, and utilizing their mannerisms and tactics, our plight will not founder. Cursed be those dissecting eyes from powers beyond the naiive, unaware wanderer's perception, that scowl these planes, and work from a reclusive heirarchy that has long been established around these badlands for ages... Be safe and beware the ides and later days of March, Big Ern... ominous and portentous things lie ahead of thy breath, that seek to envelop the movement, like a choking thorny forest tangling about your conquest and search for the truth, but such things only act as a godly finger pointing in the very direction of the great treasures you seek... Many have trodden that same path upon which your very soles leave tracks in your journey, but have as of yet not had the virtue to entirely succeed in their undertakings. In confidence, I soothsay that the greatest good will come thy way, good sir, should you possess the patience, fortitude, and wisdom to continue on using your sword of objectivity of which you have become a skilled master, to smite the foes of truth, who instead carry flags of ignorance because they have become accustomed to the splinters of the norm and its ideals. The sandpaper of truth, oblivious and righteous, will be triumphant, no matter if it drags with or against the grain, I promise. The slate will be smooth. Just know that I'll be there right behind thee, my friend so long as it's the truth you bear... for the little ones... for the children! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Big_ern, you're on the road to greatness! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />