would also like to add this can be a good place to find ratios and things too.. this is the usda nutritional database:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

1st of all, if someone would be so kind as to email me the good Dr's diet, i'd be much obliged... nothing ventured, nothing gained... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />

2ndly, and i may be somewhat our of line here as i don't know a BML from a BMW, as i'm just a fan of this place for personal reasons... but... (and speaking strictly from a time tested common sense aspect) wouldn't there be somewhat of a difference between gliders in the "wild" as opposed to "domesticated" ones?... i can't remember who brought up the point, nor will i scroll while in mid-thought, it tends to get me lost..lol... but is not everything "healty" (and i use the term loosely) based on content of protein and nutrients and fiber and vitamins, etc, and not necessarily the actual food itself?... do we not derive what we need from chinese food or italian food or good ol american food?... and pretty much, mostly, (again, used "loosely", sos to speak) sustain ourselves in some fashion consuming a variety of things... do our systems not adapt to diets and the such in usually a short time frame (and i understand there are exceptions to any rule)...

so my thoughts are that, theoretically, if gliders can adapt to "living" in captivity, would it be unheard of that their systems would adapt to many different diets as well?...
i mean, c'mon, mealy worms are one thing, but "adult" grasshoppers or crickets, or whatever the heck bug food they've suggested... eucalyptic flowers... hybiscus plants..lol.. what are ya, pet owners or horticulturists...
my personal feelings are some people are just tooooo uptight about things... and within reason, take things too seriously... heck a good dog or cat will cost you as much as your exotic gliders, but in the end, they all still lick their butts, no?...

so my conclusion is this... if it aint broke, and your pets are chirping, purring, and yipping merrily along, DONT fix it... i'm sure the good DR. has all the best intentions (if not stock in hybiscus plants and adult crickets) in her study findings, but i'll bet she's got hybiscus plants and the such growing in her greenhouse... for the rest of you (us) regular people... read your "ingredients"... do your homework... but for gosh sakes, enjoy yourselves... exotic or not, these are still pets... as it is, you're taking creatures of the "wild" and caging them up for your personal pleasure..
i'd think, push comes to shove, they'd eat kibbles and bits... you guys are amazing with what you do for these critters... mixing this... freezing that... etc., etc...
and i understand your passions... but there are extremes to any honest and pure good intention...
just take your queues from your critters, know your limitations and keep a healthy perspective on things...

or not..lol...
how was that for just a regular guy?...lolol...

just making sure y'all are awake... carry on... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
eddie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

i doubt dr.j-d has stock in this or some financial gain... i've been told to use this diet for a year by my vet but never knew the high protein wombaroo existed and therefore didn't have enough for a complete recipe.

to get a copy all you need to do is send marla a pm

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do our systems not adapt to diets and the such in usually a short time frame?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No, not necessarily.
I think certain beings are genetically predisposed to being able to efficiently process certain food items better than others.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
so my conclusion is this... if it aint broke, and your pets are chirping, purring, and yipping merrily along, DONT fix it...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> If that was the case, I'd personally eat nothing but hot pockets, pizza, and beer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

We all know I'd be hurting after awhile...

The reason that people are exploring dietary options is because some of the current options are "broke" to them. Their gliders won't eat it, can't sustain their joeys, or they have health problems because of certain diets!

Some of this stuff, while it seems troublesome or too extreme to some, is actually pretty interesting and fun to others. Some people already garden and love to grow plants, so why not grow some more? Hibiscus and Eucalypt plants have pretty flowers! It's also thoroughly entertaining to watch gliders excitedly sniff plants and manhandle insects like savage beasts! If anyone finds this stuff to be a pain in the rear, then don't do it, but I feel that if I'm gonna cage up an animal for my own pleasure, might as well make it's life somewhat enlightened. If it's not within your means or interests, then I guess it isn't! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Big Ern, you are truly the man. I have to raise a hearty "right-on!" to what you said, my feelings exactly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
so my thoughts are that, theoretically, if gliders can adapt to "living" in captivity, would it be unheard of that their systems would adapt to many different diets as well?...
i mean, c'mon, mealy worms are one thing, but "adult" grasshoppers or crickets, or whatever the heck bug food they've suggested... eucalyptic flowers... hybiscus plants..lol.. what are ya, pet owners or horticulturists...
my personal feelings are some people are just tooooo uptight about things... and within reason, take things too seriously... heck a good dog or cat will cost you as much as your exotic gliders, but in the end, they all still lick their butts, no?...

so my conclusion is this... if it aint broke, and your pets are chirping, purring, and yipping merrily along, DONT fix it

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There is a difference between thriving and surviving. It is true animals can survive on diets not made specifically for them but they will suffer for it. If I feed kibble n bits to my gliders their over all health will decrease. They will live but for how long? Will they live as long as a glider on a healthier diet? probably not. Will their quality of life be equal to that of a better fed glider? again probably not.
It is our repsonsability as keeper of these pets that we do the best we can to provide them w/the best. And if providing an adequate diet and/or housing is not in your living means then it would be best for the animal if you to waited until it is w/in your means before you aquire one. Now I do not if you can't give your gliders a 6ft tall cage and grow them hibiscus and other flowering plants that you shouldn't own them, but more as if you are not able to provide a cage of at least the minimum cage requirements or a good proven diet. Please be responsible when choosing any pets not just gliders. Many animals suffer everyday because of irresponsible care of the owner. (I'll step off my soap box now,lol)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> lol Hot Pockets

Agree & as I stated earlier, sure am glad most humans are unable to house (C.I.T.E.S) Koalas (herbivores), Greater Glider's, Ringtails, Panda's, etc.. these animals have highly specialised diets - the Koala consumes aprox 18 species of eucalypts & each koala requires 5 lbs of fresh eucalypt leaves everyday! This is usually grown by the zoo & what cannot be grown, is shipped in, at a very great expense - zoo browse has to be grown under very strict regulations, as it could kill the very animals it is meant to feed.
The San Diego zoo has had 170 Koala births since 1925 & houses the largest captive population outside Australia.

Zoological horticuture is quite a big deal at zoological parks nationwide - it costs alot of $$ to feed exotic mammals.
I imagine us humans could exist on eggplant & seaweed but - YUCK! Just shoot me now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Just an FYI - Eucalyptus 1st appeared in the fossil record 34 million years ago & Acacia 25 million years ago - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s - I'll let you guys guess!

So is there anyone out there that is going to try the recommended diet with no fruit? With the 50% leadbeaters and the 50% insectivore fare?

What vitamins are you going to use with this diet? Would Priscilla's vitamins be adequate enough?

I just want to know who all is trying this fruitless diet, I am thinking about trying it out myself and would love to keep in contact with others. I would feel much comfort if involved with a group of people who would be trying this out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am looking at the site for the high protein suppliment... it says $10 but it doesn't say how much I am getting for that $10... Anyone know?

if you are getting it from Geoff the current rate is $12 and it's for 250g.

I'm going to try this diet out and I'll be using Pricilla's vitamins.
I ordered more crickets last night and will be using Happy Glider as the dry protien source instead of ZK's because it just doesn't matter how I doctor up that zookeepers they are just NOT impressed.

So I'll be feeding:
Happy Glider
Crickets (gut loaded and covered with vits)
Original Leadbeaters
Occasional fruits/veggies
Pricilla Price Vitamins (remember to ALWAYS add these fresh, not frozen into any food)
+ Some kind of nectar as soon as I figure out what to buy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amanda, where are you getting your crickets from? And where do you get the Happy Glider? I used to use ZKS, but im not sure how my new additions will like it.

And definitely let me know what kinda nectar ur using lol.

i use kerns nectar and sometimes even goya juice. my gliders go nuts for it.

Hey Tonia, the Goya and Kerns juices are the same thing basically right, both come in a can?

Any idea what Nectar we could be using? I thought the stuff was dry powder? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hey jessie check out Happy Glider food I've only seen one person on the net selling it, BUT if you call the owners & producers they will give you a name & # to the distributer closest to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

I got my crickets the first time from Wormman and they all kept showing up dead... this time I ordered from Crickets We'll see what they turn up like.... I got all adults this time and got the "cricket care kit" for $2.50 along with it.

I think any nectar will work, whatever your gliders will eat. You can get powdered nectar but it settles funny at times so I don't care to use it.

As for crickets, I buy them at a local pet store <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amanda, I was looking at what all you are planning on feeding, and please be careful of the vitamin intake, as Happy Glider (which btw Jess can be found Here )is full of vitamins and calcium, then you have pricillas vitamins and then the vitamins and calcium in the original leadbeater.

I've used happy glider on and off for quite some time. It's great when traveling... They have several flavors, including a new mellon flavor that I really want to try <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You guys never cease to amaze me. While you are considering the C/P ratios and fiber in fruits and vegetables you must consider there are many other factors involved. And as well as the over all diet you are trying to design. You need to know a little more about the content and interaction of the vitamins and minerals in the items you are planing to include in your proposed diet. It is a lot more complicated than going to some web site and picking up on the nutritional values of certain food items. And who really cares whether a tomato or corn etc is considered a vegetable or fruit. What you need to consider is what it is going to do to the overall balance of the captive gliders diet. I don't think anyone here is qualified to make a list of the fruits or vegetables that are safe to include in a gliders diet.

You are venturing into an area that even the educated nutritionists can not agree on. Keep one thing in mind when you are suggesting these diets and items to feed the sugar gliders. If you are wrong you personally are going to be responsible for the outcome. If through your personal beliefs limited on inadequate information you influence someone to feed a diet to their gliders that will cause the gliders health issues, it is you that is responsible.

Until you understand more about what you are doing I would suggest you leave the diets to the people who are more qualified to provide information. And even then it is a guessing game.

We have fed fruits and vegetables to captive gliders for years and there are hundreds of gliders that thrive on them. Captive gliders are living to be 10+ years old. That is better than they ever did in the wild. Think about what you are suggesting and what proof do you have that your suggestion are going to actually work.
Charlie H

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You guys never cease to amaze me. While you are considering the C/P ratios and fiber in fruits and vegetables you must consider there are many other factors involved. And as well as the over all diet you are trying to design. You need to know a little more about the content and interaction of the vitamins and minerals in the items you are planing to include in your proposed diet. It is a lot more complicated than going to some web site and picking up on the nutritional values of certain food items. And who really cares whether a tomato or corn etc is considered a vegetable or fruit. What you need to consider is what it is going to do to the overall balance of the captive gliders diet. I don't think anyone here is qualified to make a list of the fruits or vegetables that are safe to include in a gliders diet.

You are venturing into an area that even the educated nutritionists can not agree on. Keep one thing in mind when you are suggesting these diets and items to feed the sugar gliders. If you are wrong you personally are going to be responsible for the outcome. If through your personal beliefs limited on inadequate information you influence someone to feed a diet to their gliders that will cause the gliders health issues, it is you that is responsible.

Until you understand more about what you are doing I would suggest you leave the diets to the people who are more qualified to provide information. And even then it is a guessing game.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It's one thing to make polite suggestions, and another thing to outrightly belittle the intelligence of someone.....
Perhaps they are considering these things which you assume are being neglected, and they don't feel the need to chronicle their thoughts and musings here.

C'mon, it's not that I don't agree with you in some respects but seriously, was that necessary? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Ok get back on track and the topic of this post please....if you dont stop now, it will be closed and this is containing too much GOOD information to let it go away...

I think it is wonderful to see all of these people coming together and sharing all of the information and knowledge that has come from YEARS of raising gliders that thrive! I bet there is close to 1000 years of experience here from actual glider owners.

Edited to say--the rest of this was just rude. I apologise to anyone that read it, and was offended. Please forgive me.

I, as well as several others, have in the past recommended some of the things that have been mentioned here in this thread, and to tell you the truth, I don't know about others but my conscience is as clear as air. Back then much of it was dismissed as "junk science" and "clever wording".

Now that someone with the reputation of Dr. Delaney Johnson has come a long to point out the validity of such things, I think it's great that these ideas can now be explored with less retaliation (personal observation: as has been quite an obstacle in the past), and can be approached instead with an open mind and a curiosity to explore the subject in depth.

To be quite honest, when you are instrinsically aware of the science, whether you be certified with decorative letters after your name or not, it all doesn't become so mysterious nor so much of a "guessing game".

Anyway, no one was formulating anything new here. From what I understand people have been clarifying the information that has been presented in this thread. It's truly important that we really analyze this new info, and NOT just sit back and choose between the diet views of Bourbon and Dr. Delaney Johnson, for instance, both of whom are qualified and are saying radically different things. I don't think this should be something we all should just go ahead and make a blind choice on who may be right/wrong, without trying to reason things out for ourselves, especially since the raw data/studies are not provided to us normal folk. We are all glider scientists in our own right, and experimentation, research, and studies occur in our very homes whether we realize it or not.

One should never underestimate the capabilities, mental or otherwise, of ordinary people.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Very well stated Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

(sorry Peggy - a bit off topic)
I for one, am very troubled by several of Charlies statements

Charlie who I understand, rescues <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s, seems to be frequently asking questions about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s, most pertaining to health & certainly advises others on diet & what not to feed.

Why would someone who has questions, not listen to the scientists who do the research - much info is published.

Charlie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s have been in existence since the Pleistocene & if it wasn't for their native diet - you my friend would not have the pleasure of their company!

I understood that this website was for inquiring information & learning new research about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s - I have also heard to often from professional people - DVM's & Scientists (Experts in their fields) that are not willing to visit this site - this is very sad & really confuses me, it makes absolutely no sense!

Why is it that some people are so detrimental to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s & their research?

nothing against you CharlieH OR Pockets, i'm not taking ANY sides.. but i do agree that a lot of this information is very great and would be (if nothing else) rather enriching to their diets. bml, for example, is a very used diet. but it had to start somewhere... just like this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I personally feel that if we keep slowly moving towards modifications with this diet eventually it will become something that can be called "standard" and will benifit everyone... ESPECIALLY the gliders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />..

isn't that what this is all about.. their health <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />?

i for one (like i said "slowly") am going to modify my diet.. i will probably cut down on fruits and veggies.. but will not just stop feeding them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />.

i understand that people disagree (and i've been known to have "fits" over things that i feel IS NOT in the gliders best interest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

but this is not about us.

please don't take my words harshly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />. i'm just trying to get this whole thing back on track for THEM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You guys never cease to amaze me...[cut] Think about what you are suggesting and what proof do you have that your suggestion are going to actually work.
Charlie H

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi Charlie,
First, you're an amazing person, anyone who can rescue 70+ Gliders at a time deserves to be a cannonized Saint <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/gliderangel.gif" alt="" />

I understand your concern about diet recommendations from the 'laymen" you consider us to be (I only have a PhD in biology <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) but by the same token, the things you're saying, which, through misinformation, may deter someone from feeding their glider this type of diet, can be detrimental, and that's then on your conscience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure you have been feeding your rescues w/produce, and they live 10+ years in your care, I don't doubt it. Not being eaten by predators has a lot to do with captive animal longevity (I discussed earlier in this thread), much like some human beings can live "a long time" despite smoking, eating nothing but fried foods and not exercising, my uncle did all of the above AND was a big drinker, and still lived to be 67, and even then he died in a FIRE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />. Was he healthy? Did he feel good and have a high quality of life? Not at all, but he lived 6 decades, when human lifespans in the "wild" of prehistory were on average 40 years.

People in my old neighbrhod in CA had big cats as pets, they lived a long time, they ate horsemeat, and were fed beer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> sometimes by the owners. They seemed okay, even had babies, but I know it wasn't the ideal way to care for lions, tigers and panthers. I too fed Elvis fruits/veg for his whole life up 'till now, and he is healthy. He is also a baby, and the cumulative effects of fiber on his GI tract would not be evident until later in life. These long term effects, collapse and other issues are what results from an improper diet, and like Big Ern said, if you're happy with what you're doing great, but if not, or you want to ensure long-term health, this is an option.

For some GCer's, this method may just not be practicable. In your situation, adding flowers, etc may not be feasible, and I can see how that would be frustrating. I don't have 70 gliders, so for ME it's no big deal.

I have to talk about the other points you made, b/c we're continuing to shoot the messinger here.

1. It's not mysterious or complicated to make this list of produce for gliders=

A) The low fiber requirement has to do with the specialized glider caecum. A caecum is a lobe of the large intestine that many non-ungulate (ungulates have multiple stomachs and specialzed bacteria to do the same thing) mammals have, its purpose is the breakdown of fiber, also called cellulose, into some usable form. To us cellulose is referred to as "indigestible fiber" b/c we don't have a caecum that allows us to digest it. Rats have one of the most well developed caecums, which allows them to digest heavy cellulose items like cardboard, and even wood! How "ridgey" a caecum is indicates how well it can handle fiber breakdown, rats have really ridgey caecums! Glider caecums are very smooth, an indication that while some fiber is part of the diet they evolved to consume, they're not very efficient at it and shouldn't be given too much.

B)At 5% of the diet, no matter what produce/flower/gum arabic you choose as a treat, it's not a major contributor of vitamins of any kind, and will not throw off the vitamin rations when used with the rest of the diet.

C) Ca:P is the other factor to consider, you all know why this is, I don't have to go into it.


2. "Guessing" again= We're not "proposing" anything, nor do we have "inadequate information". This TYPE of diet is what's used, and has been used for decades, at zoos in Australia and New Zealand, wildlife rescues in AU & NZ,(look it up on their websites, it says what they feed, and even LISTS PRODUCE example:

[http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/nature_conservation/wildlife/carers_kit/mammals/marsupials/possums_and_gliders/

and many people on this very thread have mentioned that their LOCAL vet recommended something very similar, in addition to Dr.J-D. I can't think of what more could be considered "proof" by "qualified" people, can you? We have lots of qualified professionals telling us this works. We're just trying to figure out how to follow it as close as possible here in the USA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Nobody is blaming you or anyone else for continuing to feed in a way that has worked for you, esp. when you have the # of SG you do, I can see your options are limited. This thread isn't for those with these considerations. We want to explore this road, with the support of Dr.J-D <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> and "qualified" others.

For all of the above reasons, please don't scare people away using the "fear of failure" boogyman. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />

I am not saying glider diets can't and should not be improved. What I am not comfortable with is taking a diet like J-D's that does not go into detail and starting to juggle the ratios.

For instance the idea of the vegetable list based solely on calcium phosphorus ratios. Has anyone ever thought about what effect magnesium and oxalic acid may play? What happens to vitamin k when it is frozen? What effect does freezing have on vitamin c? What is the effect of the amount of protein in the diet on the utilization of calcium? What is the per cent of usable protein in this diet? How much vit d or d3 is in this diet and what are the dietary requirements for a sugar glider?

There are a million question that can be asked when trying to formulate a sugar glider diet. These are questions that should be asked of J-D since she is the one that suggested this particular diet. Without even having the diet analysis I see people already wanting to start using this diet. But they are only going to be using a part of it. Not sure it is a good idea to start altering a diet that you do not yet have the full information on. And even then only with the approval of the person who formulated the diet.

While it is mentioned that this diet has been used in Aus. for 25 years I agree that part of it has. However I do not see any mention of day old chicks or pinkie mice in this diet. And the issue of the high protein cereal has not been resolved completely. Speaking of the cereal. Wouldn't this be considered a high fiber item?

The theory on fruits and vegetables containing too much fiber does not sound reasonable. Since gliders do not eat the peel but only suck the inside out of items such as peas and corn. From my experience with farm animals and domestic pets if they do not have fiber in their diets they will develop digestive problems. I know they are not sugar gliders but I would think that the same principal would apply to all warm blooded animals.

I am not trying to scare anyone. I just want everyone to take time to study what they are doing and not jump into a diet they do not understand. J-D's diet may be the best thing that ever happened to captive gliders but let's take time to become familiar with it and the components before getting too carried away.
Charlie H

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

While it is mentioned that this diet has been used in Aus. for 25 years I agree that part of it has. However I do not see any mention of day old chicks or pinkie mice in this diet. And the issue of the high protein cereal has not been resolved completely. Speaking of the cereal. Wouldn't this be considered a high fiber item?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The link I provided from the Queensland EPA has no chicks or mice as components, only insects. It has been previously explained why whole animals are not a good choice IF you have other options for protein. I explained the nutritional defN of "high protein" and "high fiber", both are 5g/serving. So, we want 5g protein in the nectar/ledbeaters, and as little fiber as possible. My baby cereal has 4.5g/protein per serving,and less than 1g of fiber. The egg is included to add more protein.

The trace elements you mentioned are needed in extremely small amounts, and the other compounds are found in leafy greens and beans, which we've already said are not good choices, for these and fiber reasons.

My point in defN "fruit" was to allow people to see that "veg" they felt were enjoyed by their SG's, like squash, are actually fruit and thus can still be fed as part of the treat component.

There is little effect on the content of food due to freezing, as a matter of fact it is a better mode of preservation than any other, and I even use it to keep DNA viable for years.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The theory on fruits and vegetables containing too much fiber does not sound reasonable. Since gliders do not eat the peel but only suck the inside out of items such as peas and corn. From my experience with farm animals and domestic pets if they do not have fiber in their diets they will develop digestive problems. I know they are not sugar gliders but I would think that the same principal would apply to all warm blooded animals.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The first part of this is a good observation! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> They're leaving the peels because they can't handle the fiber! Mine do that not only w/peas & corn, but also with grapes. However, I have known gliders that ate the peel, so limiting their access sometimes matters.

But the second point is not. This is like saying whales, pandas, cows, wolves, dogs, cats, koalas, goats, pigs, hummingbirds and chickens (all warm blooded) should all be fed the same thing. They're totally different in their nutritional needs and digestive systems, this is why we have designations like "herbivore, carnivore, omnivore, insectivore", etc. When you dissect them, you can see these differences quite clearly.

There is a tremendous danger to making such generalizations. It is not biologically sound information.

Not to be a trouble-maker, but to address your first question up there:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I am not saying glider diets can't and should not be improved. What I am not comfortable with is taking a diet like J-D's that does not go into detail and starting to juggle the ratios.

For instance the idea of the vegetable list based solely on calcium phosphorus ratios. Has anyone ever thought about what effect magnesium and oxalic acid may play?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I do believe the vitamin/mineral suppliment to be fed with the suggested diet ensures sufficient amounts of magnesium, so you won't have to worry about poor calcium metabolism nor calcification problems, if that's what your concern was (plus I'm sure the protein sources + vit suppliment provides sufficient vitamin B6 so in conjunction with the sufficient magnesium, I'm sure the kidneys would be fine under such a diet). Also, the reason oxalic acid, H2C2O4, inhibits calcium is because the oxalic acid undergoes a chemical reaction with calcium, forming calcium oxalate crystals, CaC2O4 (too lazy to work out and balance the equation and to illustrate the checmical formula), however so long as you don't feed spinach, beet leaves, chard, and rhubarb, your gliders won't be getting a surplus of oxalic acid; it's like calcium/phosphorus ratios. Just ensure there is more calcium in the fruit/veggie than oxalic acid (i.e. don't feed the veggies I just mentioned).

Actually, another concern would be phytic acids, which like oxalic acids inhibit the absorbtion of calcium. Phytic acids can be found in legumes (ahem - how many people here have lima, peas, and other beans in their frozen, mixed veggie bag when feeding diets like BML? Tsk tsk...).

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Look at all the great information that has come in the last few posts! I know less than nothing about these different compounds, but what is being said is making sense. Yep, I feed peas. None of the other stuff, though, so peas are on the treat list now! I love this. All of you knowledgable people, come and teach me! I am listening.

Be aware, I am not the only one listening to this, though. Lots of people are, and they aren't registered, and may not know everything that is going on.

Oh shoot! My bad! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> I should have clarified! Sorry, USMom!

Legumes are a "NO-NO" food item, not to be fed regularly (although, I'm sure a treat here and there wouldn't hurt) because they contain relatively high amounts of phytic acids which inhibit/hold back calcium absorption, which ofcourse is not a good thing. I brought it to attention because I know several people (including myself back when I was feeding BML) use the mixed bag of frozen veggies, many brands of which include several beans/peas in the mix. I think I may have made legumes/high phytic acids seem like a good thing there! Oops! Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" /> = loser!

Anyway, USMom I too am enjoying this thread as much as you and I'm sure a lot of us are. I'm sure we're benefitting from this very thread in such huge ways!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />