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Unknown toxin killing gliders #642173
09/23/08 12:24 PM
09/23/08 12:24 PM

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Anonymous OP
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Anonymous OP
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I have lost two, treating two with antibiotic and steroid, and monitoring 16 others, some of which have lost weight. The necropsy was idicitive of long term exposure to a toxin. Symptoms are hemolytic anemia, differentiated cells in intenstine, liver and kidney damage, hyptoproteinimia, and some other stuff. It coincides with the new aviaries I had built form cage wire from Klubertanz who bought it from Rivendale. Things were fine until the aviearies. It may be a coincidence, and possibly a blood parasite or something else that as lead to a immunosuppressive act. So far the ones who have died are related, but the others that are thin and being monitored are not, and upon testing had an appropriate packed cell volume. 4 different vets are involved and are suspicous of the cage wire, which is the vinyl coated 1-1/2. I'm concerned about toxic cage syndrome. When the cages were first built they had been sitting outside in the shade. They should have aired out. Once they were constructed I washed them down before placing the gliders in. The smell from the new cage wire was overwhelming and I left the windows and door opein to ventilate for several days. The smell concerned me and I called the manufacturer who told me there was nothing to be concerned about. I would have waited to put the gliders in, but I did not have the room at the time, because I am in my mom's house taking care of her while she was dying from ALS. The gliders are back in their old cages, and unhappy about the cramped quarters. I want to put them back in the aviearies, but I'm worried. Ive called various places to find out about testing the wire to rule it out, but to no avail. My vet has a friend at a pharm company who works in toxicology who will run test there in her free time, at no cost, so it may take awhile. I am inpatient in this matter. I am not a breeder, I resuce them. This situation is tearing me up. Any suggestions or has anyone heard of a similar problem? Thank you, Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #642179
09/23/08 12:30 PM
09/23/08 12:30 PM

M
Monster OP
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Wow, I am so sorry to hear about your babies. I have not eevr heard of this. I have heard of other things killing numerous gliders such as certain molds and parasites.

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help, but there are so many knowledgable glider people here, maybe someone else has the answer...

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #642181
09/23/08 12:30 PM
09/23/08 12:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave
TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
Is the cage wire blue or black? I've heard of some major problems stemming from the blue cage wire, but I don't know if it was Rivendale that made it.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #642195
09/23/08 12:49 PM
09/23/08 12:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
pappy1264  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
I don't have any experience with anything like this, but I am so sorry for your loss and am praying for your other babies. That is pretty scary to think the wire could do this!


Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: pappy1264] #642197
09/23/08 12:53 PM
09/23/08 12:53 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Get the rivendale wire out of there, now. It made my babies sick and it made PrincessMegi's babies sick. Get it out. There is something on the wire that makes them ill.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642198
09/23/08 12:54 PM
09/23/08 12:54 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Once you remove the babies from there, in about 2 weeks, they should be fine. If so, it's that wire. They told me that a lot of the people that use their wire pressure wash with steam??? I don't know how to do this, but no amount or type of washing worked. I tossed an entire roll of wire.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642209
09/23/08 01:08 PM
09/23/08 01:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
It is the wire. The Riverdale wire (I used blue, but they make other colors) made one of my gliders completely bald and her skin scabby. She did regrow it, but only after being removed from the cage. Please get them out of the cages ASAP!!! There is no way to clean it. I tried tire cleaner at the car wash, industrial strength degreaser, nothing works. You can find safe wire at klubertanz.com



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642210
09/23/08 01:09 PM
09/23/08 01:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
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LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
I just wanted to send you my deepest condolences and prayers to you and all your little ones. I hope that you will find the cause soon.

Moving this to Health & Hygiene.
Please take a few minutes to register, this way you can have access to the entire forum and maybe others will be able to help you too.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: LSardou] #642213
09/23/08 01:13 PM
09/23/08 01:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Please read this thread:

WARNING: Blue PVC Coated Wire

Last edited by sugarglidersuz; 09/23/08 04:48 PM. Reason: to fix link


"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: LSardou] #642215
09/23/08 01:14 PM
09/23/08 01:14 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Megi, she bought it from Klubertanz, who bought it from Rivendale. Ack! I had the same thing happen, one of my girls went bald, it was ugly. But the vet kept saying they were fine.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642219
09/23/08 01:16 PM
09/23/08 01:16 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Kitty, did the wire smell like metallic?


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #642220
09/23/08 01:17 PM
09/23/08 01:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,910
Phoenix, AZ
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis
KattyM  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,910
Phoenix, AZ
I'm so sorry for your loss, Kitty. hug2 It sounds like you're doing everything you can at the moment. I've not heard of this, either.

When you say the ones who have died are related, do you mean to one another, or related in their symptoms before they died? Going with the thought that it's related to the cage wire, if they were physically related, they may both have had a compromised immune system or some other predisposition that would make them more susceptible. The other gliders who are thin but not related could be stronger. Or perhaps if there is something on the cage wire, it might be dissipating with time.

Perhaps the ones who died (if they were related and came to you together) brought with them something that was contagious and harmful? (So the cage correlation is only coincidental?)

Have you asked any of your team of researchers if there is anything you can do to the cages to further sanitize or remove any possible toxins? Can Klubertanz or Rivendale tell you where the cage wire was stored before it was shipped out? They may not know or be hesitant to tell you, but that might be useful to know (if it's a possible mold or some other toxin).

I wish I could be of more help.

I encourage you to register so you can take full advantage of the board (posting in all the forums).


Forever owned in my heart by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

:rbridge:
• 2002: Keiko (F) + 2003: Hiroshi (M) = 2004: joey Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M), Herbie (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: KattyM] #642245
09/23/08 01:35 PM
09/23/08 01:35 PM

G
gnhughes OP
Unregistered
gnhughes OP
Unregistered
G



Kitty where are you located? Some of us have extra cages you can borrow so you can get them out of those cages while you're trying to figure out what's going on!! We're praying for your little ones. Keep us updated.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642278
09/23/08 02:12 PM
09/23/08 02:12 PM

L
lindayaks OP
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lindayaks OP
Unregistered
L



I read the posts in princessmegi's link. I did not have that metallic "shop" smell, but it did reek of a cross between pesticide and weed killer. I knew to wash all cages before using, but to be on the safe side I took it to a car wash, then brought it home and used dish soap then bleach. The gliders never got sick from the wire. I can't tell you who manufactured it, it was too many years ago.

I don't use wire cages any more, I use reptariums. I've had them come smelling like pesticide, but a wash in the washing machine with detergent, bleach, and a double rinse takes care of it.

Hope you can solve the problem. let us know how your "kids" are doing. Register and join in, we'd love to have you.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #642399
09/23/08 03:36 PM
09/23/08 03:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Wow I'm so sorry for your loss, I truly hope you find the cause to their illness. I really hope you join us we always have room for suggie slaves!


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Adri] #642469
09/23/08 04:53 PM
09/23/08 04:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I am so very sorry about your loss hug2 Thank you for bringing this toxin to our attention. Based on your information and that provided by Shawna/USMom and Megan/PrincessMegi I have now added the Blue-Coated Wire to the sticky about HAZARDOUS toys or toy parts & cage parts list


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: sugarglidersuz] #642476
09/23/08 05:11 PM
09/23/08 05:11 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Suz, I don't know if we are sure that it is the blue coated wire, but all the wire discussed came from Rivendale or Riverdale Mills. I am glad you added it, though! Thanks!

Last edited by USMom; 09/23/08 05:12 PM.

Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #642576
09/23/08 07:29 PM
09/23/08 07:29 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,997
Upstate, SC
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis
SariYappa  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,997
Upstate, SC
Has anyone heard from this person? Did they register? Do we have an update?

This is SO SAD!! cry


*Whatever I said, I said it with a Smile*

wave Sari

:grey:Sugar:grey:Nibbles:grey:Destiny

Rapid Runner *Sold Out!

Suggie Smart Mart *Home of The Hippie Pouch & Suggie Chandelier
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #642936
09/24/08 08:57 AM
09/24/08 08:57 AM

P
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
P



Originally Posted By: Anonymous
The necropsy was idicitive of long term exposure to a toxin.


Kitty,

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. You say the necropsy indicates a long term exposure to a toxin? Does the necropsy say what kind of toxin the gliders had in their system? How long have you had the gliders in the aviary built of the pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz? How old were the rescues before they were put in the aviary? How long were the gliders in the aviary before the ill effects showed up? What kind of cage were the gliders kept in prior to the aviary and prior to your rescuing them?

All of our cages are built with pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz and I have never had a problem with my gliders getting sick due to the wire. I always wash the wire with Dawn detergent and hot water on both sides prior to building the cage with the wire. Yes, the wire can be overwhelming when it is new and it needs to be aired out prior to using the wire.

With the exception of the blue wire cage case, I have never heard of this cage toxin syndrome affiliated with the black pvc-coated wire from Klubertanz. I read that both black and blue wire were manufactured by the same company and I do not know why blue coating makes the gliders ill and worse, perhaps it is the dye or something?

There are many members here at GC who use the Klubertanz wire who has yet to report any ill effects from the wire, including myself.

Did you notify Klubertanz? I am sure Richard would want to know about this. I know I would.

Again, I am very sorry to hear about your gliders.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #642940
09/24/08 09:04 AM
09/24/08 09:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Is there anywhere in the post where she says the wire color? I know Klubertanz also sells green wire. Is it possible it was the green wire and not the black??? I have 2 black Klubertanz cages, one made in February 2007 and the other early this year, so the wire was bought at different times and have had no trouble. My only problem was the blue wire.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #642955
09/24/08 09:21 AM
09/24/08 09:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 767
Canton Tx
Their_mommy Offline
Glider Guardian
Their_mommy  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 767
Canton Tx
I am so sorry to hear of your loss.
I am wondering if maybe the wire was sprayed with insecticide at the point or origin?
And the oil like substance still remains on the wire?
Sure hope she comes back to let us know about the questions asked and hope the other suggies will be ok.


As time goes by and my loves pass. I will forever be greatfull for the time we had together. I will see you soon my loves.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Their_mommy] #643889
09/25/08 12:07 PM
09/25/08 12:07 PM

P
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
P



Any updates? We are all anxious to hear what the necropsy says and what the toxicologist finds out from the tests.


Jen

Possible toxins and gliders #643917
09/25/08 12:53 PM
09/25/08 12:53 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



I can't register with my hotmail account,the page will not let me. I've called Klubertanz who told me that they purchased the wire from Rivendale. I e-mail Riverdale with the questions of: 1 What chemical is used to adhere the vinyl to the wire and if they use recycled material? If the use recycled platics than the probablity of toxin is increased. Rivendale will not respond to me. I did not tell them I was looking for a toxin, but that I was going to build glider cages. I did not want them on the defense if it was indeed a toxin in the wire. Thank you for the responses and prayers. The necropsy can not specify what toxin. They have to know what to look for. $600 and they were no able to tell me. The wire is black coated and the problems started showing up notably approximately a month or two after the aviaries were built. In order to have the wire tested one has to know directly what to test for. I have not taken in any new ones in around two years, because I was taking care of my mother who had ALS. And i am glad that I did not take in anymore. Therefore I do not believe any contaminent was brought in by a glider. I am in Phoenix AZ. My e-mail, since I can not registar is kittybaran@hotmail.com I had taken 2 of them 3 different times to either a regular exotic vet or to the emergency animal clinic, before the last run to the clinic where Hobb was in ICU where he died 3 day later. I had to have the other put down. I am now working with two vets at the Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital. They have been doing research and one has called in a favor from a friend who works at a Pharm company in toxicology. She will run tests on Token, who I had to put down at no cost. But it is in her free time, therefor I do not know how long it will take. If anyone has any urgent advice please feel free to call me (480) 695-0402. I would like to have the wire tested, but again they have to know what to test for. I know its neither lead or zinc. Looking into PVC/vinyl products I found a couple of chemicals that can cause some of the problems, but depending on how they make it, including how they get the stuff to stick the list of chemicals is abundent. I called the vet school at U of A, but the only thing that Doc was good for was getting on my nerves. And the problem is, is that it may not be the wire. Thanks for everyones time. Kitty

Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous] #643922
09/25/08 12:57 PM
09/25/08 12:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
Kitty, Did you try and clear your cache and cookies. Once you do, shut down and reboot. As far as I know the only conflicting email is with AOL....

If you still have trouble, try and post in "Board Help and Announcements" and Eddie will be along here shortly to help you out.


NOTE: Leaving this here temporarily until we hear back from you so that we know you are able to log on.

Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: LSardou] #643937
09/25/08 01:16 PM
09/25/08 01:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Have the wire tested at your state laboratory to find out what is in it.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous] #643953
09/25/08 01:37 PM
09/25/08 01:37 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



I don't even know what cookies are. My brother is the computer dude. I'm the medical, ethics and advocacy, and philosophy person who is impatient with computers. Kitty

Re: Possible toxins and gliders [Re: Anonymous] #643957
09/25/08 01:40 PM
09/25/08 01:40 PM

M
Monster OP
Unregistered
Monster OP
Unregistered
M



Click on Tools, then Internet Options, then Delete Cookies...

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #643975
09/25/08 01:59 PM
09/25/08 01:59 PM

M
Monster OP
Unregistered
Monster OP
Unregistered
M




Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #644021
09/25/08 02:32 PM
09/25/08 02:32 PM

P
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
PixTrix OP
Unregistered
P



Thanks for the link, Gina! I did not see this thread.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #644059
09/25/08 03:20 PM
09/25/08 03:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
We have always used wire from Klubertanz and it has always been the black PVC coated wire. We have tried other wires and they either don't look good or they don't last as long so we stuck with them. If this is really from the black PVC wire and more than one person has had this happen we need to know right away!!! We were planning on using Riverdale wire again, but will change if this is an issue. We have just recently (within the last three months) built 5 cages for ourselves and friends with this wire and have had no problems. I do know that the plastic does cause an odor for about a month, especially in a closed room. This has always been the case with any PVC wire we have used. We have used Shepards as well and that had the same exact odor. We will go back to using Shepard, but we never did like the quality as well. The wire is not coated as evenly. As far as how long it lasts we do not know. We never had any complaints on those cages either though so maybe we will switch to them until this is figured out and we will be making a call to Richard to see if he has heard anything like this having happened before. We have never used their different colored wires. When we were in business they only had green and we didn't like it much and the blue was not around then. I am really wanting to know what the best thing is to do in this situation. This could or could not be the wire. It could or could not have something to do with where it was stored and someone sprayed for something not thinking and that caused a problem. There are so many variables that it makes it hard to make a good decision on this. I do know that my gliders have been in this wire quite a bit (at my camper) and never had a problem. My friend has cages built out of it and never had a problem. So I am confused as you can see. What do you all think we should do given the situation besides try to find out what happened? What month was this purchased? What was the ship date? Did Klubertanz build the cages and then ship them or did they ship the wire and you built the cages? These are just things that would be helpful for when we talk to Richard. Anyone placing an order right now will be able to choose which type of wire they want us to use as long as we are able to get our hands on it. Now the prices will have to go up if we use Shepards as it is much more expensive with who we go through for some reason. I will look for cheaper options starting now though.
We are just as worried about this as everyone else as we would rather go out of business then to make cages that would harm the gliders.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644072
09/25/08 03:31 PM
09/25/08 03:31 PM

M
Monster OP
Unregistered
Monster OP
Unregistered
M



Danielle, the person who posted this cannot see this post anymore as they are unregistered. They have a post in the Emergency forum right now, so you may be able to contact them that way. There is a link directly to their new thread a couple posts up...

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #644085
09/25/08 03:43 PM
09/25/08 03:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Thanks Gina!!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644088
09/25/08 03:48 PM
09/25/08 03:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I am confused when I go to the emergency forum it says this topic has been merged and it leads me right back here?
If I click on the link a couple posts above it does the same thing. Do I need to post somewhere else or here? Did the person manage to get registered and is able to see it here now?


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #644091
09/25/08 03:53 PM
09/25/08 03:53 PM

M
Monster OP
Unregistered
Monster OP
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Ok, I see what happened...

At the point where the title of the thread changes to "Possible toxins and gliders" - that is where the thread was merged. This morning, that was a seperate thread in the Emergency forum. There was a post under it by a mod saying they would leave it there since the anonymous poster was having trouble registering.

Hopefully, this means that the anonymous poster has registered & we will be hearing from her soon...

Originally Posted By: **DONOTDELETE**
My e-mail, since I can not registar is kittybaran@hotmail.com If anyone has any urgent advice please feel free to call me (480) 695-0402. Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644100
09/25/08 04:10 PM
09/25/08 04:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I wanted to add that we have talked to Richard and this is the first time he has heard of this happening. He wants us to keep him updated on the whole thing. he said that there has been some bad stuff coming out of china, but Riverdale does not come out of china and as far as he knows nothing has changed with the wire. We have used this wire for a very long time and even very recently and never had a problem. We always wash our cages at the car wash or with a pressure washer before we put our gliders in it. Now we mainly did that because the PVC does and always has had an odor to it. We have noticed it takes about a month of cleaning it at the most to get that smell to go away. There does seem to be a film on the wire, but as soon as we pressure wash it the film is gone. Now whether that film would hurt a glider I don't think it would, because I can guarantee that we sold to customers who did not wash their cage before putting their gliders in it and never had a problem. At least not that we ever heard of and I believe we would have heard. I am not trying to be defensive at all. I am just worried about a good company such as Klubertanz getting their names bashed on here when they have done nothing wrong. We even asked if they had sprayed in their warehouse or anything along those lines that may have caused anything and he said no that they would never do that as they know a lot of their wire goes to cage builders and that wire goes to animals.
I still want to hear everything there is to hear about this as the most important thing is to find out what is causing this and if it is the wire then figuring out what we all can do about it. The gliders are the most important thing in this situation and that is what we have to concentrate on. I just don't want anyone jumping to immediate conclusions that all the wire from Klubertanz is bad for animals when we are not even sure if that is the problem yet. I have read posts where the wire came from e-bay (probably china) and other people that are saying it is klubretanz too. If it is I need to know right away. Until then we will either stop building cages or look around for other wires. Then do we have to worry about other wires since it has happened with at least two brands at this point? We do not want to build anything that would harm a glider in any way shape or form and so the type of wire we use is very important at this point. It just seems weird to me that Riverdale has been being used for a lot of years with no problems at all and now all of a sudden there seems to be possible issues. Did they change the way they do things? They could have and maybe that is the possibility we need to be looking at. Did they change their procedure at all. I know we have used Shepards in the past as well and would be happy to go back with them, but is there going to be a problem there too? Is this something coming from out of the country that all PVC coating is being made of now? I am very concerned as we have people wanting cages, but I do nto want to build them unless I know they are not going to make them sick. Any input would be great!!!
We as a community need to figure out what is going on and make it stop. If it is something they changed then maybe we can get them to change it back.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644102
09/25/08 04:18 PM
09/25/08 04:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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Danielle, I can speak to you in person about this if you'd like to call me tonight. My number is (660) 605-2321 and I will be free after 6 p.m. Central.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644108
09/25/08 04:24 PM
09/25/08 04:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I'm sorry I also want to add that I am really sorry that this happened to you and your babies. I got so caught up in the fact that something like this is going on that I forgot to say I am very sorry for your loss. Please accept our apologies.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644109
09/25/08 04:27 PM
09/25/08 04:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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We will give you a call as soon as we can. It is hard for me to be on the phone right now due to hand issues, but Ken has to work and he said he could contact you as soon as they have a slow period, but if he says he has to go he has to go that second as he is on the ambulance tonight. He won't be trying to be rude. smile We are very interested in anything we can do about this. We look forward to speaking with you.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644112
09/25/08 04:30 PM
09/25/08 04:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Danielle, if it's easier I can type it all out once I'm home. Also, I have a sample of the blue wire I can mail you, as well as the seller info. Shawna (USMom) and my wire was from the same roll (I bought mine from her) and was purchased from Ebay.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #644128
09/25/08 04:55 PM
09/25/08 04:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Megan,

If you would like to e-mail it to me that may help as Ken is bad at translating all the important details. What he thinks isn't important usually is. LOL Until I get my headset that works properly I am stuck with e-mail and sometimes texting if my fingers allow.
I am really curious about hearing how this has all evolved. I have figured out that the blue wire has not come from Klubertanz or as near as we can figure it hasn't. Someone said that the link for the blue wire on e-bay linked to the same supplier as klubertanz. Any information you have on this would help us greatly. At this point we are considering shutting the store down until we know for sure what is going on as we do not want to be involved with anything that can hurt a glider. Even if it is through a second hand connection.
If you think sending the blue wire sample to me might help then of course feel free to send it to us. I will give you my mailing address in e-mail. I am for doing anything we can do to help to figure this out. This is not just because this involves our business as I will shut that down without thinking about it, but it is because gliders are getting hurt number one and because we could be involved through connection number two. These gliders lives are much more important to us than the business of making cages.
I look forward to hearing from you. If it is too long to type out though take a couple days or whatever or I will just have Ken go ahead and call. I could have him call on his next day off, but at this point I am not sure when that is. LOL
I want to thank you for helping us to figure out what to do.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644156
09/25/08 05:33 PM
09/25/08 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
Ok, I'll try and get something typed up tonight and pm you.

The sample of wire is very dull and you can tell it has something on it. My 2 black Klubertanz cages (I built them, but it's Klubertanz wire) are both shiny.

If possible, could you type a list of questions that would have beneficial info/answers for you?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #644297
09/25/08 10:37 PM
09/25/08 10:37 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Austin, TX
I did talk to Kitty today. She is a very nice lady, but is working with her brothers computers, brother in Russia, so she does not want to clear his cookies. You can call her directly pretty much anytime.

She does have the black wire. So, I'm not sure what the issue is. KB, when we had the blue wire issue, didn't you say you had an issue, but washing the cage with something cleared it up? What was that? If it wasn't you, sorry.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #644328
09/26/08 12:13 AM
09/26/08 12:13 AM
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Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
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I remember reading that if the blue wire was washed with the car wash soap that it was ok, but I don't know if that is right or not. dunno


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: sugarlope] #644359
09/26/08 02:25 AM
09/26/08 02:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,470
Tucson, AZ
hipbchik Offline
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Originally Posted By: sugarlope
I remember reading that if the blue wire was washed with the car wash soap that it was ok, but I don't know if that is right or not. dunno


I remember that as well, and using extremely hot water.

Kitty, I am so sorry for your losses. hug2


peace~carolyn



"Your mind is the birthplace of ingenuity and then you need your heart as the Mediator..." ~Lil C
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #644375
09/26/08 06:11 AM
09/26/08 06:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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I am so sorry for your loss. How devastating.

Kitty - have other things in your gliders lives been considered? diet comes to mind. Certain things, like crickets and grapes can cause toxicity for various reasons. Also, prepared glider foods that have not been refrigerated can grow mold that can be toxic to gliders. Just some other things to think about.

Last edited by Gossamer; 09/26/08 06:15 AM.

Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Gossamer] #644377
09/26/08 06:31 AM
09/26/08 06:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
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NW Missouri
I washed mine with car soap and it didn't touch whatever is on this wire. It is a coating than can be scraped with your finger nail. It is on top of the Blue PVC Coating. It makes the wire look dull instead of shiny like it should. I soaked mine in car tire cleaner at the car wash, as well as trying industrial strength degreaser.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #644481
09/26/08 11:21 AM
09/26/08 11:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
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OMG you guys I made my cages in early Jan. By April I started fighting different issues with my crew. I wonder if this is related and what caused the liver issue in Sprite and now Stormy, Stitch, and Streak are so frail again... ADDED A NEW STRESS


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: cyndiekb] #644482
09/26/08 11:34 AM
09/26/08 11:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Mine smelled like machine shop I got the smell off. I figured no smell no worries. I pray this is not why mine are compromised.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: cyndiekb] #644497
09/26/08 12:02 PM
09/26/08 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
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I know the car wash soap/degreaser works w/the black plastic mesh, but not sure about the actual wires. The hard part in this case is trying to eliminate the possible sources one by one for a definitive answer. It will be interesting to hear the answers to her questions from Rivendale. Maybe something will turn up from that.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: thefotokat] #644515
09/26/08 12:43 PM
09/26/08 12:43 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Austin, TX
The car was soap and REALLY hot water only worked on the cage where I hand scrubbed the pieces in my tub before I assembled it. I had gliders in that cage for 9 months with no problems. The other cage that I washed, and scrubbed and took to the car wash and on and on and on, nothing worked. But, it was huge, and I could NOT use hot water on it. It was too big to even get through my bathroom door (22" doors on my RR's)


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #644517
09/26/08 12:49 PM
09/26/08 12:49 PM

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PixTrix OP
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USMom, do you have pics of the cage? I am curious...as to why nothing worked in removing the film of gunk from the blue pvc coating.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #644802
09/26/08 08:29 PM
09/26/08 08:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Ken has talked to Richard and we have been assured that there is no changes in the way that the wire is being made, the materials being used to make it, or anything going on in the warehouse where it is stored. We asked if they had sprayed for anything, etc.. The answer was no. He did mention a couple times now that there are problems with some wire coming out of china and Riverdale does not come out of China. Is she absolutely positive that it was Riverdale wire? I can't remember if it said, but did it say she purchased it from Klubertanz? Klubertanz does sell other brands than just Riverdale. Maybe it was something in the house or was this cage even in the house? It mentions it is an aviary? That typically means that it is outside, but I realize that is not always true as we had what we called aviaries in nursing homes I worked at. I just want to see what all the facts are so we know what questions we should be asking and where to go from here.
I will say that at this point I will be building my babies another cage soon from Riverdale wire (when I get the money to build it) and to be honest I am not worried. I am keeping my mind open to anything that is being said and am still investigating as far as I can go with what information I have, but I am just about 90% sure it is not the Riverdale wire. Maybe it was some of the black PVC wire that comes out of china? Richard did not say what the problems were with the wire coming out of china. maybe it was just a manufacturing issue and maybe it was an issue that is making animals sick. Ken doesn't always think of what questions to ask so I have to write more down and have him call back, but I am not going to have him calling Richard three times a day as we know he is a very busy man so I am trying to be respectful and still get the information we need. I know that if I was even a little bit worried about Riverdale wire I would not even consider building my babies a new cage out of any PVC wire at all and I would close our business right now. Sugar gliders have been in PVC coated wire cages (most made from Riverdale wire) and have never had a problem so I don't see the need to jump to assumptions that because this situation happened that all PVC wire is bad. It could have been a bad batch as that happens with animal food, etc..
There are sorts of possible explainations, but I don't want everyone that has a PVC cage to start worrying and run out and purchase new cages. Lets all dig into this and ask any questions we can possibly think of that could be involved in this. This community has figured out more issues than most vets out there so that says a lot. I think it is possible to do the same in this situation, but I also think it is going to take us all thinking outside of the box and asking those questions that pop into your head. If necessary hunting down the people that can find the answers, etc.. Lets all keep our minds open (I know it may not seem like it, but mine still is) and think of what could have caused this and see if we can pin it down. Come on everyone we can do this!!!!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #644832
09/26/08 09:23 PM
09/26/08 09:23 PM

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Right on, Danielle! I am so with you on this!

Like I said, all of our cages are built with Riverdale pvc-coated 16-gauge wire from Klubertanz and I have never had any problem with it. I am not about to change cages just because of this "scare", because I have seen proof that our gliders are just fine in their cages. As a matter of fact, I have had these cages since 2001.

Thank you, Danielle and Ken, for going out of your way to inquire about the wire with Richard. We all appreciate that!


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #644837
09/26/08 09:29 PM
09/26/08 09:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
I know for Shawna and I, the gliders were noticeably ill within days. After just 4 days my Tiki's hair was falling out and her skin scabby. If you have a cage that is PVC coated and your gliders have been in it for more than a month, I would say you are safe and it isn't the wire.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #644839
09/26/08 09:39 PM
09/26/08 09:39 PM
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Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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Since the blue cage wire was sold off of Ebay, it's possible the person who sold it had it in a place where it got sprayed with something or became toxic from where or however it was stored..thus the reason for them selling it? Just a thought...


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms] #644855
09/26/08 10:15 PM
09/26/08 10:15 PM

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Yes, it is a very good possibility! There are so many factors that contribute to the gliders' illnesses, just too many to count!


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #644862
09/26/08 10:29 PM
09/26/08 10:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
It wasn't sold by an individual. The seller was Riverdale Mills. They sell on Ebay.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #644879
09/26/08 10:43 PM
09/26/08 10:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
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USA
Oh okay. Well that shot that out.

I wish we knew what it is on that wire! frown


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms] #644889
09/26/08 10:51 PM
09/26/08 10:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
It's really grimy. Leaves your hands feeling nasty after working with it. I have no clue what it is. I'm going to send a sample to Danielle. Maybe they'll be able to figure it out.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #645263
09/27/08 02:06 PM
09/27/08 02:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
I agree about the amount of time in the cage. I was just saying that to Ken last night and I just mentioned that to pixtrix in a pm just now before I came on and read updates on here. As small as these gliders are and with as big as these cages are compared to them that means there would be a lot of toxin around them so therefore they should be sick and showing signs within 1-2 weeks max.
Is Riverdale Mills the exact same as Riverdale wire? I have never heard of them referred to as Riverdale mills, but that might just be because they shorten the name when talking to us and we never knew it.
If it isn't the exact same company maybe this is some of the wire coming out of china. Ken and I had seen that there was wire on ebay and we almost purchased some. I am so glad we didn't. I wonder if the black wire they are selling on ebay is the exact same thing as the blue wire on there. I am going to contact the seller on ebay and see if we can purchase a small sample of the wire they are selling on there (just tell them i am interested in purchasing a large amount and wanted to see the quality) and then compare it to the blue sample and then compare both to the wire we get from klubertanz. We have to realize too that on e-bay anyone can lie and say they are selling a certain brand or they are a certain company and they are not. Years ago we had never seen PVC coated wire sold on ebay (not any brand at all) so that is why we were a little leary of it. Plus it was a lot cheaper than what is being charged everywhere else. Is there anyone on here that has purchased the black wire from ebay?
I know that it was said that the black wire mentioned in the beginning of this topic was purchased from Klubertanz, but we have to start ruling out things out as we go along to find out what exactly is causing this. If the wire on ebay is bad then that would explain the other illnesses that there has been with gliders in those cages. So then it would be a matter of figuring out all the details of what was going on with the gliders in this other situation. diet, cleaning products, toys, bedding, snacks, etc.. all needs to be looked into and asked about. I still think that if it was the wire these gliders would have been showing signs and gotten sick much faster than this. I believe it was something else causing it. We all know there have been bad batches of food out there no matter what you feed. You could get bad chicken baby food for BML. We all know the processed food can have bad batches made from it. Snacks can be an issue too. There are just too many variables and these questions need answered too so that we can move forward to figure out what caused this. Maybe she could send me a sample of the wire she used to build her cages just in case it was a bad batch and there is any way to tell by looking at a sample of hers and comparing it to a piece of ours and then to the bad stuff off of ebay. I want to figure this out before any other gliders get sick and die. This is horrible to go through and Lord knows none of us want this to happen to any other gliders or their parents. So if we can figure out that the wire on ebay (black or blue) has a different quality to it than the stuff from Klubertanz (riverdale specifically) then maybe we could figure out where to have it tested at. I could send samples of all three pieces of wire and see if that person can find what is different between the three. We would have to find someone that would be able to test this sort of stuff for free for us or at a very small fee. maybe there is someone in the community that does this sort of thing or is able to???
If anyone has any questions they can think of please post them or pm them to me so that I can write them down and figure out how to rule them out. Is the person that started this topic allowed to post anymore? If she isn't that is ok I just didn't want to bug her a whole lot on the phone with what she has been through. I can gather what information I can and then call her. I just want to know more about the things in the environment these gliders were in and if she can think of anything that they were using that was new whether it was food or cleaning products. I pray we will figure this out so we can put everyone's minds to rest and to find out what caused it so it doesn't happen again.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #645288
09/27/08 02:36 PM
09/27/08 02:36 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
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Austin, TX
Danielle, I agree with everything that you say. Except in my case I KNOW it was the cage wire. I had 13 cages of gliders at the time, and it was only the gliders in that cage that were ill. We took them out, they got better. Put them back, they got sick again. Took them out, they got better. Scrubbed the cage really, really good, took it to the car wash, poured bleach, rinsed it, poured vinegar rinsed it, you name it, I did it. I even muscled it into my sons bathroom and got hot water on it (made an unholy mess). Put another group of gliders in there. They got sick. Took them out, they got better. None of my other gliders got sick in this time frame.

Every group of gliders that went into this cage became very ill. Started with Dexter and Gizmo. Dexter died from what looked like a stomach issue about 2 weeks after moving in, I didn't get a necropsy because my son was in the hospital at the time, and I just didn't. Next, I tried to do intro's with Cooper and Gizmo a couple of months later (Giz lived there the whole time, never got sick). Didn't work, so I put Giz in Coops cage and left Cooper in Gizmo's cage. 2 days later we started that God Awful saga that was Coopers illness. He was removed from the cage to go to the hospital cage. So, at this point, I'm not associating the illness with the cage yet. I never moved Gizzy back into the cage, because it was HUGE and she was in a good sized cage. So, I moved my quad into the cage. Sugar, Spandex, Doodle Bug and Cuddle Bug. Spandex died a couple of weeks later from I don't know what. I didn't get a necropsy, probably because of a timeframe issue, but his girls all went to the vet for a check, as they had a stomach issue, runny poo, vomiting, etc...Cooper was still on meds twice a day, and now I have 3 more to medicate. I got them all well, but Mom was pulled in the process, and now the cage was too big for them, so they went to different cages. This cage went to the garage. I honestly thought that I hadn't cleaned it well enough after Cooper was in there, and they got his germs. Then, I brought in a large colony. That cage was the perfect size. Within a couple of weeks, the colony was sick. These guys went back and forth, in and out of the cage, with one of the girls losing all of her hair. They went back and forth to the vet (who kept telling me they weren't sick). In the back and forth in and out of the cage they'd get sick, get better. That's when it dawned on me that it was the cage. So...

I still have the roll of wire and the cage. I will say, I did make a much smaller cage out of the same wire. Used it for 9 months on one of my girls, and she never got sick in it. This wire, though, I washed (scrubbed with a scrubby) in my tub, with very hot water, rinsed with very hot water, and that nasty smell went away, too.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #645495
09/27/08 08:14 PM
09/27/08 08:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
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Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
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I spent all day after I read this re-cleaning my cages and today as well. wheels, bottles, and pouches too. (Take NO chances) Hubby said after watching me clean my cages there is NO WAY the cages are making my gliders sick..something about me being ocd about how they have to be done. I am not OCD BUT my gliders HAVE to get better and that is that. My cages have no residue smell on them so I think mine are safe.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #645712
09/28/08 06:53 AM
09/28/08 06:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
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Unfortunately with out necropsies and analizing the cage, you can't be 100% certain it was the cage. the cage is suspected, but not confirmed. The fact that you had at least one glider live in the cage with no problem throws doubt. That's why what this poster is doing in having the cage analized is so very very important. I hope they come back and tell us the outcome.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Gossamer] #645864
09/28/08 01:43 PM
09/28/08 01:43 PM

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I wonder if there is a local university that would test samples of the wire for toxins. They would have all the equipment on site since the are a teaching facility And if they have something like a forensics club, they might do it for free, just for fun, or the experience.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #645976
09/28/08 04:26 PM
09/28/08 04:26 PM

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Yes, or a metallurgy lab or a lab that works with plastics...


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #646095
09/28/08 07:29 PM
09/28/08 07:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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To be honest I do not think it is the cage. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about anything at all. Thee are just so many variables here, but the one variable is that there are thousands of people who have cages made from Riverdale wire and never had a problem with it. So if it was the cage it had to be a bad batch or something to that affect. I just think there was a thousand other things that could have caused this and were more likely to cause this than the cage. Everyone that knows me well knows that I would not just say this because we sell cages. We just started the business back up and we could shut it back down and not lose anything in doing so. My first concern is always what is best for the gliders and if there is an unknown reason out there I like finding out what caused it as it could help millions of other gliders including my own babies.
I am here to help in any way I can and have all the same questions running through my head as everyone else does. It would just be nice to have some answers. Is the person that started the thread still available by phone? If she is would she be offended if we were to call and ask questions about other things going on in the gliders lives and environment? I know she is going through a very hard time and just do not want to make it any worse than it is. I think she really believes it was the cage that made them sick, but as I said I have serious doubts that is the case considering what history with this wire dictates. The only way I see it being the wire is that there was something that went wrong with that batch, something happened in the warehouse in which is was shipped through, or something in the shipping truck. We tend to forget that the stuff is shipped through how many different places and in how many different trucks before it hits us, especially if you live far away from Klubertanz. I really want to help her figure this out so everyone can feel safe with their cages or future cages again and so everyone knows what did do it and how to prevent it in our own home.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646102
09/28/08 07:40 PM
09/28/08 07:40 PM

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I agree wholeheartedly with Danielle. I have had cages made of PVC-coated wire from Klubertanz since I got into gliders back in 2001 and I have never had any problems with the cages. Like Danielle, I do not think it is the cage that caused Kitty's gliders to become sick and/or die from it. I think it is most likely the environmental issues, since Kitty said she built an aviary. An aviary is an outdoor cage, right? There are so many possibilities from the environment that could have caused dire illnesses in her gliders, for example, exhaust, pesticides, insecticides, air pollution, if she lives in the airline path, then that could also contribute to the problem. This is why an outdoor living quarters is so very much discouraged. Better be safe than sorry!

As for the native gliders living outdoors, they are fine because they grew up that way. When captive gliders are bred and raised indoors and then released into an aviary outdoors, then the pvc-coated cage certainly isn't to blame. It's the immune system within the glider(s), among other things.

I just don't think it is the cage that is causing the illness/death. Period.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #646334
09/29/08 12:21 AM
09/29/08 12:21 AM
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I just got the link from megi to the guy that sold the blue wire and his name of his store is Riverdale Mills. I want everyone to know that this is not the same as Riverdale wire that you get from klubertanz or other legitimate suppliers. We have talked straight to Riverdale and they do not sell to private buyers. They only sell to legitimate wire supply stores. So there is no way that Riverdale Mills and Riverdale is the same company. I wanted to post this on here because if this is wire coming out of china or is not being made safely (they are mostly selling for fish traps so are not concerned with living animals) then everyone needs to know not to purchase from them at all. Even if the wire is black if it is coming from them does not mean it is made any different than the blue wire was. I have no doubt that the blue wire made sugar gliders sick. They were sick in a matter of days and showing definite signs very early on. The people that were dealing with the blue wire and the sick gliders had had cages made of the black PVC wire (not sure from who, but I would imagine from Klubertanz. Don't want to make assumptions though) so they know what PVC smells like and it does not smell good and it can be a strong odor, especially in confined spaces where it is closed up. There are people that still smell it months later. I think everyone has a different range of smell so that accounts for that as well. Anyway megi mentioned that this blue wire smelt a lot different then the wire she had received before this stuff. I don't want to in anyway imply that the megi or shawna did not really deal with bad wire that made their gliders sick as I know they did.
When I am referring to the wire I don't think is making the gliders sick is the legitimate klubertanz wire. I am not even saying I know for a fact that this wire did not make them sick. I am just saying I am am not real convinced as of yet. I want to find out what caused this to make sure it isn't the wire. I am really concerned about this and i am so sorry if I am coming across as rude about the wire thing I am not meaning to. I really really want to make sure for 100% sure that it is not the wire. If it is the wire I know I will be closing our business ASAP. I just think that with all the cages out there that have been made of this wire and not had a problem it makes me not believe that it is the wire, but that doesn't mean I am right.
I would love for everyone that can help in any way to get involved in this even if you pm me or e-mail me direct. I really don't want to give up and go on and just assume it is not the wire and have it be the wire. However, I can not do this one my own unless I have information on the exact situation and I just do not want to offend Kitty by calling and asking questions about diet, etc.. as i know she has went through a great loss. Please let's all get together and try to help her and every other parent and glider out there.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646412
09/29/08 05:59 AM
09/29/08 05:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Shawna,

I am sorry I some how missed your post up there. I am so sorry for what you and your babies went through. It is always horrible when you don't know what is making them sick in order to fix it. You and megi seemed to figure it out pretty quick and that is great. I really do believe that the wire that person is selling on ebay is not good. I am going to see if there is a way to get a sample or purchase a small quantity somehow to see if there is anyway I can see it and compare it to Riverdale's wire and also that blue wire. This way I have two wires purchased from the person on ebay. I will purchase black from him just to make sure. Then if the blue one and the black one from the same vendor have the same problems then we know it is that vendor for sure and to stay away from him period and get the word out there not to purchase from him. I think he named himself Riverdale Mills so that people would think he was Riverdale or was associated with them and I can pretty much guarantee you they aren't based on the conversations I had with Riversale wire company themselves and to Klubertanz. Now if these two are the same and they are totally different from the Klubertanz Riverdale wire then we know that no one should ever purchase from the ebay guy again.
However, then we are back to square one on Kitty's case. She would be the first person (that we all know of) that got a roll of wire from Klubertanz (Riverdale) that made her gldiers ill. So it would be one of three things if it was the wire. 1. It was a bad batch of wire 2. they are making their wire different and whatever they changed caused this 3. something happened during the shipping process that made this batch of wire toxic. If it isn't the wire then there are thousands of variables. Such as carpet cleaners, hard wood floor cleaners, etc.. Dusting solutions, air sanitizers, or just about any cleaner on the market being used in the same room with the gliders on a regular basis. Something in the environment that maybe even Kitty didn't know about. Sugar gliders are so small that it takes so much less of something to cause them to get ill than it does for humans. So it could be a carbon monoxide issue in the house or anything similar to that where it wasn't so bad it was harming the humans, but bad enough it was makeing the gliders ill. diet is another factor. Depending on what she fed there could be a few variables there as well. I just wish we knew for sure what the answer was.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646551
09/29/08 09:56 AM
09/29/08 09:56 AM

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Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
I just wish we knew for sure what the answer was.


Me too! It drives me crazy not knowing what the answer is.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #646844
09/29/08 02:29 PM
09/29/08 02:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
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Oh my God I've finally got log in! I am not accusing Klubertanz or Rivendale of anything. I am not slamming anyone. I am only making an inquiry concerning anyone who may have had a similar occurance in order to rule out a toxin in the wire itself. I know there are many possible couses of toxic exposure. I've spent 11 months intensly researching neuro-molecular biology and environmental toxins so I could speak to neurologists, molecular biologists and the Docs at the FDA inorder to get a drug that was still in the research phase available to ALS pts. Therefore I know there are many possibe culprits including toxins produce by micro-organisms. I've spent 6 grand on this problem. My vet are not sure what is going on including if the problem are the cages themselves. Again I am not slamming the companies I am only making an inquiry to rule out. And you know what? I sure would not buy blue wire, based on what people have said. I've put my gliders in old cages that I thankfully did not get rid of, but my gliders have had the luxary off being in a 6 by 6 by 5ft cages and 6 by 5 by 3. I refer to them as avieries because most cages are not this large. They are not outside. I live in AZ were we, yes freeze as well as fry. I do not use aerosols, air fresheners, pesticides, grass and plant killers, and the gliders and I eat organic. Chicken and veggies are frozen inorder to kill possible bacteria. Fruit is washed, peeled and washed again. I can not take my cages to the car wash because of the size. They were cleaned before the gliders were placed in them and cleaned many times since then. I've e-mail Rivendale and they responded with "we use many different chemicals". well.....dah! I re-e-maild them asking for specifics, but I have not heard back from them. Many differnt chemicals are used in the manufacturing of PVC and in the melding of PVC onto wire. Many of these chemical are toxic, xylene, bromide, I can not remember them all. I read a study concerning PVC and it found that a certain chemical, and again I don't recall which because I was doing some pretty frantic reading, caused cancer in rats, It was deemed safe for use because it did not appear to produce it in people. This could be due to body metabloism and/or size. Dell and Microsoft are phasing out the use of PVC, because of possible toxins including in the disposal process. The use of recyled PVC is a concern due to impurities and changes in the PVC depending on what it was exposed to as it sat around, a question I asked of Rivendale. They told me they do not use recycled material. I called Klubertanz first. The guy was reluctant to tell me where they get the wire until I told him that I was looking at a possible toxic exposure. He told me Rivendale, but he would not give me the Phone number, and I had to look it up on line. I thought that was kind of rude. I called the Univ of Az college of vet medicine, I got the appropriate dept for what I wanted. I don't remember what it was. The guy was full of himself and the only thing he was good for was getting on my nerves. I've tested the room for lead in the paint and in the underlying paint. The gliders do not get on the floor, I get into their cages, which is why I made them 6ft tall, so I would not have to duck. I do not go into the cages unless I've freshly showered and before lotioning up. I put fresh socks on before I go in so as not to bring something from another part of the house into the cages. I wash my hands before handling them. I've try to illinate toxic exposure as much as possible. The thing is that all this began occuring shortly after the new luxury cages. I really appreciate all the responses and input and prayer. I wish I had gotten into this site sooner. My vet did a lead swab of his dog's ceramic water dish and found lead. So I swabed all of the glider stuff to make sure while I waited for the blood work. Zinc swabs are also abailable on line. I think it is a nice thing to have around to test new glider toys and dishes. I was reading in the Sun Coast Sg section and read the mention of pine nuts for gliders, beside being high in phos, they may as well as other nuts carry bacteria that produces toxins, beware of nuts! I was going to ask my vet if freezing nuts would kill the bacteria, I think it would but not sure. Thanks everyone Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #647045
09/29/08 06:39 PM
09/29/08 06:39 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
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Danielle, I have the wire still. I am willing to have it tested, and willing to pay for it. I just have no idea where to go. There may very well have been a toxin in my glider room. The things the vet found were a virus (Staph) and in another group of gliders, a bacterial infection, then nothing in the other two groups, and unknown in the first death.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #647063
09/29/08 07:04 PM
09/29/08 07:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I am having the same problem as you Shawna I have no idea where to get it tested. I am asking around. Well having Ken ask around. Since he is a firefighter he does inspections on all the coompanies,etc.. in this area and he is trying to think of who may be able to test for this sort of thing. Maybe Kitty has some suggestions as to where to look for people and what type of professional person we should be talking to?

Kitty I am so sorry that you thought I was accusing you of bringing down Klubertanz or Riverdale wire (they are two separate companies. Some people don't realize that I don't think). What I was trying to do was prevent panic. When things like this happen and it is stated that it is probably the wire then everyone begins to get upset and go with it. I was just trying to make sure everyone knew there was no way we could know whether it was the wire at this point or not and that Klubertanz and Riverdale have always had good names and we shouldn't bring them down in this. I know that is not what you were trying to do.
I am so happy you are on here now so we can ask questions and get answers. You have already answered a lot of questions I had in my head. One question I am having right now is everyone is referring to the wire company as RiveNdale insetead of RiveRdale. I am trying to figure out if Klubertanz added another company that was just spelled close enough to Riverdale that we didn't notice it? Klubertanz does sell wire from different manufacturers. It is not just Riverdale wire that he sells. So we do need to get to the bottom and figure out for sure which wire it was that was purchased by the people that their gliders got this oily fur and started losing their fur and getting sick from. Is it one company in particular or is it all of them?
The reason I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that it is the wire making them ill is because a majority of the gliders out there are in cages made of this type of wire. Maybe the ones getting ill have immune issues? If that is the case they would show signs much faster than the other gliders. IF that was the case then it could mean that the other gliders may not show signs for years. I am just as confused as everyone and I thank the people that are pm'ing me so that I can get some facts written down based on each situation. Like I said it is going to take us all working together. We need to open up if we think this has happened to our gliders in the past or present, we need to talk to the people that are trying their best to get it figured out. I know that me, megi, Shawna, Kitty, and PixTrix are trying to figure it out together.
Now Shawna with yours it is hard to know if it was a bacterial/staph infection that made your gliders sick or if it was a toxin that lead to the bacterial/staph infections that did it. I know that staph is very hard for humans to recover from let alone a glider. It sounds like Kitty has the abilities to have wire tested. Kitty are you open to having the other wires that have been involved sent to you so they can all be tested against each other to see if there is a difference in them? If you are is this costly? maybe this is something the glider initiative would be willing to help with since it does affect a ton of gliders lives out there. These are all things that we need to look into. If I had the money and resources I would take this on all on my own, but most of you know that is not possible and why.
Richard was not trying to be mean by not giving out Riverdale's phone number as I don't believe he is aloud to per an agreement with the company. We just happened across it at one point and were able to call. First things first though is that we need to know that we are all dealing with the same companies wire or not? If not we need to know which companies wire has possibly been involved with an illness or death. That is the information I am trying to collect right now.
Since we know that the blue wire was in fact bad please do not purchase from the Riverdale Mills on ebay. This is where the wire came from. They are not the same company as Riverdale wire. Please just stay away for your babies safety.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647078
09/29/08 07:23 PM
09/29/08 07:23 PM

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Can we make this a sticky, to warn glider owners to stay away from the pvc-coated wire from Riverdale Mills, in the Housing and Accessories subforum?


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647133
09/29/08 08:33 PM
09/29/08 08:33 PM

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Jen - it probably would do no good as a sticky until we have solid facts on SOMEthing, which we don't right now - we just know that some wire is bad, and that it may come from Riverdale, Rivendale, Riverdale Mills, or even Klubertanz.

I think everyone is heading in the right direction. Samples of the wire should be tested. Whoever collects the samples needs to be very careful to keep them separate so as not to cross contaminate by handling one sample, then handle another without washing hands and sealing all other samples away, etc. The information is only good to us if it is valid.

Kitty, thank you so much for coming back & registering! It sounds like you have been really thorough with your efforts, so hopefully we'll be able to narrow this down.

I don't know how much I can do guys, seeing as I've never even owned a PVC cage. But you guys have my brain here to work through ideas with you, and if I can help...I'm here thumb

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647183
09/29/08 09:22 PM
09/29/08 09:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I just want to add that Klubertanz does not make wire at all. They get their wire from suppliers such as Riverdale and Shepards. Those were the only two that I knew for a fact that they carried, but am going to look deeper into that.

I thank you for the information on how to keep it all separate with not cross contaminating. I was in nursing school so we learned all about that, but sometimes we do not cross that information over to other places we need to utilize it.

Does anyone know if that blue wire is still for sale anywhere? I see they have yellow wire, but no blue. I want to get fresh samples that haven't been used or washed by anyone. I think that would be the best way to go.

I am thinking that i will go around to these companies and ask for samples and give certain explanations as to why I would like a sample. ;)If I have to purchase samples i will. Then as they come in I will make sure to label, use gloves (same type of gloves every time), and then we need to figure out who can test these. PixTrix may have an idea for this, but we are not sure yet. If anyone has or knows or anyone who has the capabilities of doing this and would like to do it for the sheer fact of learning and helping that would be great.

I am still thinking that the Riverdale wire was either a bad batch, it was something else entirely, or there are changes being made at the company. We just built cages out of this same exact wire and had no problems what so ever. My friend has a cage that we built with the same roll and she has had no problem what so ever. So two different environments and 12 gliders all together and no problems. These were built in beginning of July. I still think that the wire, especially from ebay, needs to be tested. like someone said before what are we testing for as we know the chemicals they use are toxic. Why are they all of a sudden just now showing problems (if that is what the problem is)? I am not confused on how to get the samples we need. I am however confused on how to go the rest of the way and be able to actually prove anything????


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647196
09/29/08 09:32 PM
09/29/08 09:32 PM

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Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
I just want to add that Klubertanz does not make wire at all. They get their wire from suppliers such as Riverdale and Shepards.


See, that's what I mean, I don't know anything about the topic - but I'll help where i can...

Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
Why are they all of a sudden just now showing problems (if that is what the problem is)?


Is this all of a sudden? Shauna, what was the timeframe with your issues? Megi, how about with yours? Kitty, when did you order the wire, build the cages, and first start noticing issues with your babies?

Forgive me if this information has been provided, I am just trying to consolidate. I am just trying to see if this has been over the last year, or maybe two years, and precisely when (within a month or so). This would help the manufacturer narrow down the lot/batch.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647203
09/29/08 09:36 PM
09/29/08 09:36 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
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Oh, I'm pretty sure I still have the actual receipt. I know I got my wire before the Detroit SGGA, because that is when I delivered it to Megi. I didn't build any cages until Sept/Oct. The first glider died October 24th, 2007.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647210
09/29/08 09:44 PM
09/29/08 09:44 PM
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
i am not trying to say you are lying at all I just found the following confusing to me so I wanted to know why you said Richard would not tell you who his supplier was. I just re-read your post and caught this as odd. If you download his catalog or get his catalog it says at the top of each suppliers page what their name is. So that when you order the wire you know whether you are ordering Shepards or Riverdale. So it doesn't make sense to me why first of all you would have to ask him and second if it was just because you didn't pay close attention when ordering and had to ask, why he would keep this information from you.
I understand him not giving the phone number out as I had explained above. This one just struck me as I re-read the post and was curious about it.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647524
09/30/08 11:06 AM
09/30/08 11:06 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
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Austin, TX
I want to say, everyone, before you have a panic attack, stop and think. There are how many thousand cages out there made from vinyl coated wire? And how many gliders are we talking about that are ill? 2 owners have the exact same wire, as it came from the same roll. We do NOT know for sure that the gliders problems started with the wire. Anecdotally, it sounds like this is true, but we have to know for sure.

Danielle, I did ask my vet if Coopers staph could be why the next group was ill, and he was suprised I asked. But explained to me that what Cooper had was not contagious.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #647873
09/30/08 09:11 PM
09/30/08 09:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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That is weird as Staph is highly contagious. Well depending on the type of staph. That is what people catch in hospitals all the time because of how strong it is and how contagious it is. Surgical sites are usually the area it invades first.
So maybe the type of staph cooper had was not contagious.
In the nursing world staph is a huge thing and all precautions are to be taken for it not to spread. That was why I was thinking that.
Shawna I do agree with you about the fact that there is no proof that PVC wire is causing any harm to gliders at all. I am certain enough that I am going to continue to sell the cages at this point and I am going to continue to build my babies their new cage. That is why it was so hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that the wire was causing the illnesses that Kitty was describing.
I do have to say that I am going to talk to Richard further about what he meant by BAD stuff coming in from China. Like I said I do not know if he meant manufacturing issues or health issues and I want to find that out.
Other than that like we both have said how many thousands of gliders have been in this type of wire cage and never had a problem. Then I thought maybe due to economic reasons they may have changed something, but we have used it recently and not had a problem and we are not the only ones that I have talked to that have had the same outcome.
Do i think this needs to be kept an eye on? Yes I do. We need to keep our minds open to just about anything when it comes to our gliders, but we must not overreact either. The reason i was overreacting is because I am selling these cages and I do not want to cause harm to a glider at all. No matter who's glider it is. I have calmed down today after talking with a few people (including hubby) and I am much more relaxed about the issue.
I think that evreyone has the right to purchase whatever cage they feel comfortable with for their gliders, but I think that people get ripped off all the time. These $80 cages on e-bay are not usually very good. I am not saying there aren't good powder coated cages out there. Most of the really good ones (the ones that last a long while) are more expensive than the PVC cages. There are some that are pretty good for what you pay for them. The one I have in my bedroom is pretty good for what I paid for it, but I have had both PVC and now powder coated and I just have to say I hate the noise with the powder coated. I know the really good ones are just as sturdy as the PVC ones, but I can't afford those. I chose the one off bird.com and it is a nice cage, but it is noisy compared to a PVC cage and I told Ken shortly after we purchased it he was going to have to design me a new one for the house and he is real close to finishing the plans to my satisfaction LOL Everyone has their own preference though and have to go with what they can get that is safe for what they can afford and decide what is best for them and their babies. smile


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #648119
10/01/08 07:44 AM
10/01/08 07:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
Shawna- your blue cage, it was in the glider room right? So whatever is with the cage wire and made the gliders sick, they have to have direct contact & not airborne. If it was just from aroma, you would have had other gliders sick. So an uncleaned piece should still have residue of whatever is on it.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: jacknsally] #648410
10/01/08 04:12 PM
10/01/08 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Hi all I started doing some research into this as I was going to build another cage and I am worried also. I talked to someone today that had alot of useful information. He stated that this problem with the wire is real. It started about 10 years ago with wire that was being shipped in from china. What it is is a coating they put on the wire to preserve it during shipping. It shows as either a dull coating or a shiny slimy coating. Texas A & M did some testing on this wire and found that animals were being poisoned by zinc oxide. In the wire industry this stuff is called Jackson wire. It could have been boughten my many different companies but it is extremely toxic. This coating has been found on both galvantized wire as well as pvc coated wire. So if a company used the tainted galvenized wire and then pvc coated it the chemical would still leach through the pvc and poison our animals. The government has now put a ban on all wire from china so they cannot import it anymore but it is still out there and people will still be trying to get rid of this stuff that may be in their warehouses. So the person I talked to suggested that at this point do not order wire from e-bay as these people may have the tainted wire. Also we need to be cautious and if the wire smells funny or looks odd don't use it we don't want to risk our gliders. When you talk to klubertanz make sure that they do not have any of this wire or send you any. There is a company that has been usda certified as being safe called C.E. Shepard they got the certification so they would be considered safe to use for Aviaries and cages. I am not necessarily trying to say we should go with them but they did tell me they are certified with both usda and the zoological certification as being safe. The only problem I see is their distributer is custon cage works and I know that some people have issues with them. I guess you can order direct but then you have to order bulk.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648540
10/01/08 07:45 PM
10/01/08 07:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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I was so impressed when silverwolf sent me a pm with this information. We immediately called Richard and he said that he has known about this issue for a while now and has not carried any products from this jackson wire company or any other company that carries products from china. Now he only sells Riverdale and Shepard. So I wasn't sure if silverwolf was aware that Klubertanz does sell shepards wire so he is a distributor as well. Now he does not carry the size we need for sugar gliders in the shepards wire. We have gotten Shepards wire from another place not too far from KLubertanz known as DaMars. These guys do carry the shepards in the proper size. So there are tons of distributors of Shepards wire and if that is the wire you feel safe with then you are able to get it.
We will be open to using Shepards or Riverdale wire on any of our cages. However, Our primary wire is going to be Riverdale wire as this is the best quality wire we have ever used and we know it is safe and wears well. Ken had used Shepard a couple times when Klubertanz was out of our wire and people were waiting on cages. Now he called and complained about this wire at least three times, because he was so used to the quality of Riverdale. He says that the coating is uneven and just doesn't look near as nice and was much harder to work with. He had to throw away a lot of the roll as it had spaces where no pvc was even on the wire. Now that may not happen all the time and maybe we just got a couple bad rolls from these guys. We do have to say that if you want a cage made from Shepards we can do this, but you need to e-mail us about this change and we will give you a quote as we know the cage will be more expensive. This wire costs us a great deal more than the Riverdale, not that the Riverdale is cheap.
If this has been going on for 10 years then I think we can rule Riverdale out. There have been thousands of cages made from Riverdale wire in the last 10 years and not one glider was sick to our knowledge from this wire. I know we built a great deal of cages in our 5 years in business and not one glider ever became sick and these cages are still being used.
I just do not want everyone to freak out and believe that Riverdale wire is bad wire. From the research we did after we got this pm from silverwolf we know it is completely safe. We know for a fact that none of their products came from china or have this problem.
Personally I would give my money to Klubertanz or DaMars versus custom cage works. I was interested in their copper roofs until I knew where they came from. Then I had to think about it as I really wanted one, but then decided I had always said I would not support them and I won't now either.
So if you want Shepards wire and can't get the right size from Klubertanz please e-mail us and we will give you DaMars information if you can't find it on the internet. They are located in South Beloit, IL.
We need to thank Silverwolf for all this information!!!
This has solved us a great deal of worrying. I am confused as to why Richard did not say what the problem was coming from China other than Ken does not ask enough questions unless I am in his ear saying ask this!!! I wasn't there so all I knew was there was a problem with wire coming in from China and Richard had even at that time told us we didn't need to worry about that with our orders from him. Once we called Richard back (this time I was in Ken's ear) and he explained what the problem was and then ken told him what silverwolf had found out and the only thing that Richard was not aware of was the test done by A&M. Other than that he knew the rest. He did thank us for calling him and wanted us to thank silverwolf for going to the lengths he went to as Richard just was not sure what everyone was calling about or he may have at least been able to tell us what the problem was with the wire from China. He wouldn't have known about the testing though and he was interested in hearing about Shepards qualifications and maybe he will talk to Riverdale to see if they have went to these lengths as well.
I still agree about purchasing wire from other people that are not really known just to save a bit of money. It is not worth it and will cost you more in vet bills and possibly the life of your glider/s. I think we can at least lay this to rest, but I was wondering if there was enough proof to at least put a warning about this information silverwolf has found out??? At least that would help people to know what questions to ask when purchasing a cage or their own wire. A lot of people like to save money (especially with the economy being the way it is) and this could be very dangerous. Wire needs to be purchased from a reliable source and so do cages. Now we even have to worry about flight cages that are powder coated as they start out as galvanized wire and are just coated. Maybe it can leach through this coating as well. They should have made them recall all this wire!!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #648568
10/01/08 08:33 PM
10/01/08 08:33 PM
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Posts: 1,732
Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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I do want to ask when those of you who purchased the e-bay wire did any of you talk directly to the company? I am asking this as it may be extremely important information.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648572
10/01/08 08:43 PM
10/01/08 08:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
I purchased mine from Shawna, so our wire was from the same shipment. She was the one who actually purchased it though.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #648576
10/01/08 08:52 PM
10/01/08 08:52 PM

M
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M



Thank you silverwolf for investigating this for us!

So now, what about Kitty's gliders? I thought she had it narrowed down to the wire? What else could it be? She seemed like she was being pretty thorough - Kitty? Are you still with us?

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #648676
10/01/08 11:13 PM
10/01/08 11:13 PM
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Posts: 1,732
Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Utah
Well I would really like to know if Shawna had talked to the company or just ordered from e-bay. Also anyone else that has had problems with wire did you talk to the company that sold it to you??

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648691
10/01/08 11:48 PM
10/01/08 11:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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USA
It's starting to sound like the person who is selling this on ebay (at least) knows the wire is no good and is trying to dump it on unsuspecting people!

I certainly never would have known a thing about any of this if something hadn't happened frown


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms] #648726
10/02/08 12:34 AM
10/02/08 12:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Utah
Well that is why I was asking if anyone ever talked with riverdale mills directly. I did at one point because I liked the blue wire. This is what they told me and my translation now I know about things. They told me that they don't usually use this wire for that type of application (building cages) but if I was interested they would be glad to sell me what I needed. MY translation is we know we are not suppose to sell this wire for animal use but if you folks want it I will be glad to sell it. Now to clarify things Riverdale mills and riverdale wire are not the same company. Riverdale wire is the one klubertanz sells it is not the same and Riverdale wire does not deal with the toxic wire this is the information that I have gathered. The government left this up to the company to tell people the jackson wire was toxic to animals but could be used in cooling towers and such. I honestly believe there are some companies out there that are just trying to offload this stuff and don't care so please beware and watch closely who you deal with for the good of our gliders.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #649362
10/02/08 09:38 PM
10/02/08 09:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
Everything that silverwolf has done has certainly helped this community to a great degree. Everything that has been found out so far is known as factual without seeing actual documents from the huge companies. Richard said that he had discussed these issues with the companies (shepards and Riverdale) he deals with when this came about and was assured by both places that there was nothing coming from China that these companies were using. Now I will have to have Ken ask him how far he went into documentation with each of them, but I totally believe that the companies were telling him the truth. Otherwise thousands of gliders would have been showing signs for years. Our customers would have been very unhappy and had sick gliders as we stuck with riverdale except for those couple of instances.
As far as Kitty could it be that something happened to her load of wire during shipment? Could one of the warehouses have been sprayed while it was sitting in there in preparation for being shipped? Could exhaust have gotten into the back of the truck and caused something to get on the wire (after all it is only wrapped in paper or sometimes a box)? If there are toxins being shown for sure then something had to have happened, but I feel pretty confident that it was not the actual wire. This wire has been being used for the past 10 years at least (so definitely since the problem began) and nothing like this has ever shown up with Riverdale wire before. It could have been an illness that just spread through all the gliders. What I do not know. No matter what the problem was I am very sorry it happened as that is a lot to go through all at once. Kitty was going through enough in her life and then to add this on top of it. I feel horrible for her. I am sure that she wants to be able to rule things out so that she can find out what it was for sure so she can move on with everything. Maybe there is a way to trace the shipment of this wire (each warehouse) and find a way of asking them if they had sprayed or cleaned with anything in particular lately without tipping them off that it was a problem. I wish I knew what the problem was.
Did people know that this stuff can leach through powder coated cages as well? What type of cages were they in before the PVC wire cages? Maybe it was actually the other cages causing the problem.
Has Kitty found anything new out?


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #649561
10/03/08 07:35 AM
10/03/08 07:35 AM

M
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M



Well, she said that she removed them from the cages she built & put them back in the old cages & they started getting better. So if it was the old cages, the would have gotten worse, not better.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #650059
10/03/08 10:17 PM
10/03/08 10:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Critter Creations  Offline
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
That's true. Do we know that is why they were getting better for sure though as they had started receiving treatment at that point as well hadn't they?
If this is a bad roll of wire we need to see how it got to be a bad roll of wire or bad rolls of wire. There have been quite a few people that have used Riverdale wire in the same time frame as her and they have had no problems. We are included in those numbers as well. Answers to this would be great, but I am not sure there will ever be any definite answers to this. Unless we know what exactly to test for and to see if it links back to the gliders necropsies and this would cost a fortune unless we can find someone to do the testing for free or really cheap at least. I am not trying to call anyone a liar here. I am just trying to figure this out as others are using it with no problem at all. So it is hard to figure out what went wrong in this situation. I think people are taking what i am saying wrong. that i am saying there is no way it can be the wire, but I am not saying that. I am saying that if it is the wire then something had to have happened to that wire to cause it to be a bad batch since all the other wire used around that time (on this forum anyway) there has been no problems. I want to know what happened just as much as the next person so we can prevent it from happening again if possible.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #650693
10/04/08 11:43 PM
10/04/08 11:43 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
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Austin, TX
I apologize, I have been really busy and I forget to look at this. I did talk directly to Riverdale Mills, and I did ask them about using this for cages. They never said to me that I shouldn't be using it. I asked about how to clean it and the lady I spoke with said that their customers will pressure wash them with steam. Which is what got me to put it in the tub and scrub it down with car wash soap.

My wire did not come from or through Klubertanz, mine came from Riverdale Mills.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #650696
10/04/08 11:48 PM
10/04/08 11:48 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
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Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
That makes a lot of sense Danielle. I did not buy it from e-bay, but I found them on e-bay because I was looking for wire, and I asked what they have. The wire has an odor. If you can find out which division of A&M did the testing, I am willing to take them more wire. They are only an hour or so away from me, but I am betting we can get it tested for zinc elsewhere.

The e-bay store did say that the wire could have pieces of the coating missing or uneven.

Attached Files
170.jpg (12 downloads)
Here is the roll of wire.
Last edited by USMom; 10/04/08 11:51 PM.

Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #650941
10/05/08 02:22 PM
10/05/08 02:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
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kittybaran  Offline
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K

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Kitty here, Yes it is the ones who are being treated that are getting better. They are on prednisone and doxycycline. They just finished up and are going back for blood work this coming friday. I cleaned the largest cage and put the group back in with much anxiety I must admit. The group is three down and they know it. This is the same group that lost three about three years ago to a toxic inhalant. Their lungs collapsed. It turns out that new burners on stoves are coated with some chemical that burns off when first used. The house I was in at the time had a ventilation problem and all odors from the kitchen went into the glider room. The 3 who died were the top ranking gliders. The group was devastated and an obvious alpha never did step up and take control. So I am not seeing the same response, not as devastating to them, but they are upset. I hate putting them back in, but they are really unhappy in the smaller cages, which are also PVC coated. I just feel that I am experimenting with my gliders. I weigh them every other night, that is the ones who were not obviously ill. But all were treated for a week after the problem was noted. Then only the ones who were notebly under weight and tested, showing low packed cell volume. So I sit and watch anxiously. A concern is, as was mentioned by someone above, that perhaps there is some prediposing suseptability factor. In the ALS magazine there was an article about PON enzyme which detoxifying enzyme in the body is not nromal in a good protion of ALS pts. leaving them more suseptable to toxins. Gliders may have something similar. The first one who died was younger than the ones that I am treating now by about a year. So why did he die first? I got the wire, I think towards the end of last year. I have the receipt somewhere. Paper work is not on the top of my list of abilities, and I have sooo much of it. Which is why I asked Klubertanz where they got the wire. If they get their wire from more than one company I don't know how he knew which wire I got because I did not give him my full name. Riverdale (if I wrote rivendale it was an error on my part) never did e-mail me back when I asked for more specific on wire manufacturing. I also asked them why I should buy their wire over another. No response. Some one up above mentioned that they would send a wire for animal use despite the fact that it is not intended for animal use is somewhat disconcerning.
When I get the cash I going to buy stainless steele. I would rather have peace of mind than worry about possible problems and I can make the cages as I wanted them to be originally. Stainless steele would be more easy to work with. The guy who was recommended to build them turned out to be an idiot,Dan Longone, I called him back to do repairs right after he finished the job, but his repairs were so half **$##!&* that all I wanted was him out of my house. I would take him to court, but I can't find the paper work. And yes the wire may have been exposed to something in transit, or at dumbhead Dan's house. The cages have been washed though. I don't know where to have the wire tested here in AZ. No one I have called can give me an answer, only that it would be really expensive. I am still waiting to hear from the lady from the pharmacutical (however it's spelled) company who said that she would look at my glider's biopsied parts. She may be able to shed some light as to what the problem is. At least I hope so. Silverfox did have some good input-thanks. So, for now I will wait and see if any show signs of sickness. Keeping a really close and anxious eye on them. Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #650964
10/05/08 03:02 PM
10/05/08 03:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Long Island, NY
Hi Kitty - glad your gliders seem to be doing okay. Thank you for keeping us updated and I hope your guys pull through with no more issues.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Gossamer] #651056
10/05/08 06:01 PM
10/05/08 06:01 PM

M
Monster OP
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Unregistered
M



Fingers and toes crossed for your babies - thank you for keeping us updated! I hope you hear back on the histopathy results too...

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #651100
10/05/08 07:33 PM
10/05/08 07:33 PM
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Posts: 1,732
Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Utah
Thanks for the update kitty we appreciate it. Also don't feel to bad about the paperwork stuff as that is also my downfall. I hate paperwork. That is one area I am really trying to improve on as paperwork is necessary for us and I really need to improve that. One of the things you might ask them when they do the remaining test on your babies is if they do see signs of zinc oxide poisoning. That would give a definate answer as to what it was. I am going to try and find out monday if we can get our hands on the reports that A & M did or at least where to look. I am also going to try and see what other information I can get as far as this wire is concerned. I will let everyone know what I have found so maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #652183
10/07/08 01:51 PM
10/07/08 01:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
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kittybaran  Offline
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K

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Hey Silverwolf, I had some checked for zinc poisoning and their tests came back negative. There is something going on in the house. There is to many health issues. I just took another one to the vet today. He has ulcers in both of his eyes. The day before the eye issue showed up I had put the group back in the large cages of which I had taken them out of. He is on drops three times a day and he gets rechecked next week. A little over a week ago I took another one, Pinon, the daughter and sister of two of the ill, but surviving gliders to the vet, for trouble urinating, UTI with substantial inflammation. I feel bad that I did not take her in sooner, but she I one that stains occasionally, and I would find pee puddles in the cage that I had isolated her in, inorder to check on the staining because it had lasted two days. I also have a cat with chronic liver disaese, something that is not uncommon to cats, but it sure is odd that is showed up now. The glider, Ponce de Leon, who was the first to die had primary liver involvment. I also have two other cats on drugs for fevers and unknow infections. I feel like I'm running an animal hospital. Thank God I'm self employed right now and have the time to administer all the meds to everyone. But this can't be just a inconvient timing of ills. It seems there must be a correlation, maybe not between the cats and gliders, but at least amongst the species. I'm feel like my animals are being picked on hence myself as well,

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #652209
10/07/08 02:27 PM
10/07/08 02:27 PM

M
Monster OP
Unregistered
Monster OP
Unregistered
M



Gosh Kitty, I'm starting to wonder, now that your cat is involved too - could it be something like asbestos, or carbon monoxide - anything that the animals would be more sensitive to than you. It even could be something that would affect you, but later, or at higher 'doses'???

Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders #652211
10/07/08 02:29 PM
10/07/08 02:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
See Part One here

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #652212
10/07/08 02:30 PM
10/07/08 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
See Part 2 here

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: LSardou] #655469
10/12/08 10:17 PM
10/12/08 10:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Sorry to be away so long. I am having health problems again and just able to do so much in a day right now.
I think you should call the fire department and have them test your carbon monoxide levels. Do you have a carbon monoxide detector? If you do what brand? Battery or hard wired? Just wondering as my husband is a fire-fighter and knows quite a bit about that. He said it is nothing for your local fire department to come in and check for you.
I agree. I think it is something in your house. I really don't think I would concentrate on the wire at this point as I am pretty sure that is not the issue. I think it just happened to be a coincidence that things started showing up after that.
Klubertanz sells Shepards and Riverdale wire so it is only 2 different types. They sell more Riverdale than Shepards so maybe that is why he said that. I would call and have them look up your order specifically if you want to know for sure and the part number will tell them what brand it was. I don't think these problems are wire related though.
I really think you need to have your house checked out for everything you can until you find the problem. If this is affecting your animals it is just a matter of time before it affects you. I would start with carbon monoxide since that is the easiest. Check with your local health department and they can help you test for other things. This way this doesn't cost you a great deal. DO you own or rent? Either way they should be able to help you either cheaply or free of charge. I hope this helps. Please keep us updated on what is going on. You and your animals are in my thoughts and prayers.
Silverwolf has really been doing a great deal with this and I would direct any of the questions about the A & M testing towards silverwolf. They are much more aware of that than I am. All the information I got about that I received from silverwolf.
Also the only ones that are selling their wire really geared towards fishing and trapping is this Riverdale Mills that I know of. Klubertanz sells their wire knowing it will be used on cages for live animals. This Riverdale mills may very well have some of this toxic wire and not saying anything even though they are suppose to.
I pray all this gets worked out as I would hate to see any more of your animals or you get sick. This is getting to the point it seems dangerous for you to be in that house. Is there anywhere you can stay until it is checked out thoroughly. Including your babies.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #656054
10/13/08 11:10 PM
10/13/08 11:10 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
I tend to agree with Danielle. What do the cats have in common with the gliders? Water? Do you ever feed cat food to the gliders, I know some people use it as a staple, and there have been some serious issues with cat/dog food in the last couple of years.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: USMom] #656319
10/14/08 02:13 PM
10/14/08 02:13 PM

L
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
L



Has anyone thought about testing for Radon?....It's a big problem in some areas and can cause all kinds of mysterious ailments. Some people "pooh-pooh" it but it is radioactive!

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: ] #661711
10/24/08 04:01 PM
10/24/08 04:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
Glider Explorer
kittybaran  Offline
Glider Explorer
K

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Hey sorry I have not been logged on. Its barbaric, but I don't habe internet at the house. Carbon dioxide would produce different symptoms then have been exhibited by the animals. I have thought about some toxin in the ground, because I recently had a sink hole appear last feburaryish and it filled my neighbors basement with 5 feet of water. I irrigate and they do not visit their basement very often and I don't go on that side of the yard that often. The hole stood there until about two months ago when I finally found someone reliable to repair it. And it is on the side of the house where the gliders are and where the hepaticly sick cat eats (he is a stuvite cat too). I don't know if it is related. I have my glider Jelly at the vets right now have surgery for a prolapsed colon. I hope that turns out to be nothing more. I told the vet today that in the last month what I have spent on vet bills I could have spent 8 comfortable months backpacking thru central and south america or bought 3 kyaks with sail riggs or paid for the majority of a badly needed new car. Oh, the cats drink from the faucet and the glider bottled water so it aint the water. About radon, I've considered things such as that, since my mom died of ALS and so did a lady about 6 houses down and around the corner and Skip three houses down has Myasthinia Gravis. I don't know but I think that is somewhat odd. Kitty

Re: Part 2: Unknown Toxin Killing Gliders [Re: kittybaran] #662071
10/25/08 11:31 AM
10/25/08 11:31 AM

L
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
lindayaks OP
Unregistered
L



sounds very odd to me. I'm so sorry you lost your Mom, too. Also, if that sinkhole had standing water in it or the soil stayed wet all the time it could have allowed mold to grow. Some molds are very toxic and breathing the spores can cause a range of symptoms. Repairing it could have stirred up the dirt and mold.

Not being nosey, but where in AZ are you? My husband said if you are in an area where there were mines, or on a reclaimed landfill, there could be gasses coming from underground. (We are transplants from AZ, too.)

If your home is old, maybe there is asbestos or lead paint?

BTW, I was talking about carbon MONoxide, not dioxide. I figured that was what you meant, but wasn't sure.

Do you have high tension electric wires near your house (120kv to 500kv)?

I think you can by a test kit for Radon at Lowes or Home Depot.

I would call the health department and have them come test for all the possibilities. It sounds like whatever it is is affecting you, too. You are obviously a caregiver, just don't forget to take care of yourself or you won't be able to help the animals you love so much!

Last edited by lindayaks; 10/25/08 11:44 AM.
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