Simple....because the lines have NOT been separated out far enough yet which would mean the chance of something going wrong has a better chance of doing so now instead of if we waited a few years and had further line separation to deal with.

Just because we have two different leu gliders, what is the hurry to put them together now?? Why not be patient and wait?

The glider was orange because it is on a horrible diet and living in BAD conditions!!! There is no such thing as an orange glider. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is sickening!

No, they aren't. Have you seen the lineage of the male leu that Heartlandglider is breeding in her leu x leu "experiment":

http://www.psgdatabase.com/cgi-bin/psgda...psgdatabase.dbw

He's got a 19.5% inbreeding coefficient! :o That's almost as bad as the joey from a brother/sister breeding(which would be a 25% inbreeding coeeficient). :\

I mean, if someone INSISTS on "experimenting" with breeding leus to leus, shouldn't they at LEAST choose leus with good lineages?!

Yes, I have Nicole. This is why Dianne and I butt heads on this topic.

The pedigree is of one leu owned by Heartland. No link provided as to what the lineage is of the other BEW.

I have to say... from a breeder's point of view it saddens me to see that this breeding was even done to produce Frosty. Only thing I can think that the breeder may have been thinking, she was trying to prodoce a line of Canadian gliders(???).

My two cents on this is.... Frosty should be bred to a normal or a low percentage leu het and one not related to Ethan and Eileen. As to the parents... Birch should be repaired to another female.. one who is not out of Ethan and Eileen and best if a Normal.

These gliders used in this breeding program of heartland gliders were foundation lines. In no way... would I ever suggest that they be paired this way much less Leu to Leu. Then again... I have not seen what Heartland paired Frosty to. So... maybe I am off base by saying this.

As a foundation breeder of the Leucistics... you have no idea how this makes me sick to my stomach as to the beautiful babies my babies produced and then what some people are doing to them when breeding.

why would anyone want to breed leu x leu...i dont think we should do that. Dont we care about the animals..anymore..:( its really sad but guess thats how some people are..:(

Hey, Liz! Up with the baby??

yep..cant sleep

Good to see you!

Sorry - back on topic!

Judie, I need help! I will be looking soon for a mate for Abraham and can't seem to find one NOT related to Ethan and Eileen or Mickey and Minnie! Are they ALL related to them somehow? I mean even the mosaics, platinums, Leu hets, etc.,? Abraham is a Leu.

They are ALL related. I heard that Ethan, Eileen, Mickey and Minnie are even related.

Mickey and Minnie are brother and sister

I most of the early family lines are related to each other.

Mickey and Minnie are brother ans sister and are the son/daughter of Ethan and Eileen.

Could someone please tell me how old or oop dates for mickey/minnie/ethan and eileen?

Thanks.

In looking thru the papers I have it shows Mickey oop 10-01 and Minnie 6-01

So, were these the first leu's seen? Or where these the one's that got someones attention to check genetics?

One day I hope to be in the position financially to help diversify the lines.

I'm just so frustrated by this whole thing. People have gotten ripped off and told their pairing was okay and it wasn't. I just want to do something to help.

I have been looking at linages for different leu's. I see Ethan and Eileen had Mickey and Minnie. Did they quit pairing Mickey with Minnie? I see Mickey and Haley... If so, who is Haley out of?

I think that's the huge problem with Leus. NO pairing was ok initially. And ... no leu to leu pairing is really OK even still!

The myth is that the first leu gliders were wild caught. I guess those would be Ethan and Eileen?

However - it is a myth. They were NOT wild caught. They were brought here from a glider mill in Indonesia, is how I understand it. Who knows what kind of in-breeding went on to produce white gliders in that Mill??!!

The "answer" would be to STOP breeding for leucistic!

However - that isn't going to happen. So ... the next best thing is to continue to OUT breed leus, until the genetics are strengthened much, much more!

Alden, that is what I want to do. I want to outbreed. I wish I could afford to pay more for my leu male so I could outbreed him. But, I can't afford it. He is the product of someone who was told her pairing was perfect. Well, it wasn't and she has since had dad neutered. If we all could just take a break from breeding leu's for awhile and spend more time on bettering the lines...

Even though they have different oop dates, they are still brother and sister (same parents) just not "litter mates".

So, how far back in the line is it ok to have relatives? Did I say that right? In other words, how far back would Mickey have to be, if he was in both family trees to be ok for that pairing? Or is it not ok under any circumstances? I would also be trying to better (strengthen) the lines.

Well, and truthfully dogs would be a lot healthier if we didn't keep line breeding to promote appearances in purebreds too. Hybrid vigor (meaning, simply, mutts are typically healthier) is a well documented scientific phenomenon in dogs as well as other animals. But due to tradition (such as the AKC) and due to the novelty of animals that look a certain way and due to $$, we are unlikely to see animals bred solely on temperament and health anytime soon. Believe it or not, Alden, our position on this (to breed for health and behavior rather than looks) is definitely the radical position rather than the norm

And by the way yah, I stand corrected, I guess technically lactose TOLERANCE is a mutation. It is believed to evolved in populations of goat herders where having lactose tolerance allowed them to drink milk, and important source of nutrition, so this gene was "selected for" in the population and propagated to the point that many people can tolerate milk today. However, it's not uncommon for gene expression to change when people reach adulthood and then become lactose intolerant, like myself...ask many lactose intolerants you know, many become this way in their late teens. So technically lactose intolerance would be your "normal"/wildtype phenotype and lactose tolerance would be your mutation, I suppose. But sometimes I feel my friends look at me like I'm a mutant when I can't eat their ice cream!

Other Scientists think that blue eye and blonde hair mutations spread rapidly throughout the population not because they conferred a survival advantage, but because they conferred a REPRODUCTIVE advantage...meaning cavemen found the unusual blue-eyed and blonde-hair mutants quite foxy...they had lots of offspring...and now these mutations are fairly common in the population today.

Point was, not all mutations are bad. All a mutation is is a change in DNA.

Anywho. This thread is really interesting. I will try to keep track of it but I spend a lot of time on the phone with my mum now while she is going through her treatments. Great debate

Ok... so lets pretend that we all stop breeding for Leucistics.

Now... what color shall be next... hmmmm. Lets say the Albino.

Next on the list is.. lets see... everyone must stop breeding the Mosaics.

Then follow that with not breeding for WF Blondes.

Follow that with White Tips along with anything that has color to it....

And after all of the colors are gone.. what is left is the normal gray glider. So, now all of us must stop breeding for Grays.

When all is said and done by the wishes of a select few people... we shall not ever breed the Normal Gray colored gliders due to all the Rescues.

Congratulations to Everyone... there are no more gliders for anyone... all due to a select few who say so.

Now we all get in line and follow the select few as they have decided to jump off a cliff and we all follow due to the fact the select few said we had to follow.

sounds sort of insane does it not???????

The majority is not always right. It just takes one person to have a voice heard, just look at human history and civil rights. Stop child labor. Stop discrimination. Stop hate, etc etc.

Although I do not advocate leu x leu breeding, it seems as if people are already doing it. Since I cannot control what they do, I leave my voice with this:

Be responsible in selective breeding because the domesticated breed of sugar gliders may become extinct if we do not carefully pay attention. If we continue to breed a desirable trait, then susceptibility to disease will increase, and it may just wipe out the entire population of domesticated sugar gliders in the US.

To all who breed and would be breeders, myself included.
No amount of inbreeding can bring out undesirable traits if they are not there in the first place so if people are going to continue linebreeding ( a milder form of inbreeding) then make sure you do your research and check out the genetic problems with your glider parents. It does not (line/inbreeding) itself create anomolies as often as is believed, but it does increase the chances that problem genes will be manifested in the stock. No amount of inbreeding can create them if they do not already exists in the individuals.

Now it can and will depress breeding in future generations ie sterility and poor tempermants. Please just know who you are pairing with who, and try not to make unwise choices on the behalf of this species. We still don't know how all these genes are linked in terms of gene action.

In other words a pedigree is only as good as the individual that bears it.

I have to disagree with it not bringing out undesirable traits. There is SO much we don't know about glider genetics including what genes are recessive and would thus be brought out by doubling up by inbreeding/linebreeding. As we all know, gliders are good at appearing healthy even when problems exist that we can't see.

Judie, I think I can speak on the behalf of Alden (maybe?) to say neither one of us were proposing to stop breeding gliders altogether...this is a very radical extreme offshoot of what was said. My personal feelings, to clarify, is that gliders that are first cousins or closer should not be paired in terms of relationships because I think the inbreeding coefficient is unacceptably high, and I think that the focus on breeding in general should be a combination of selecting for health, behavior, and looks rather than primarily looks.

I am fully aware that without breeders I would not have my wonderful four gliders. I'm just an advocate of healthy, responsible breeding programs rather than ones that will partake in inbreeding solely to perpetuate a trait.

Hope that clears it up!