Leyna, and Helen... relax ladies....

go back and read the whole post I never said all breeders WITH colors were in it for the money.. but I am seeing far more than many people out there are willing to speak out about. many of these "genetically altered" gliders are being born with nastier personalities, not just from a small breeder here and there but from large breeders of these colors..

I also didn't say that all sterile gliders were monsters..

the monster part came in with the personalities that are also being bred through these gliders trying to get colors. and I surely didn't say all white face gliders were mean..

Just like the breeders of yesterday and many of today, the money takes precendece over the sweetness of the gliders personalities again NOT ALL!!!

look at the mega breeders,, whether it is the grays or colors.. but this thread was about colors. and the genetic altering of the gliders for their colors, and the "POSSIBLE" ramifications of it..

think of the worst case scenerios... because that is all that we can do.. speculate, use supposition, and exaggerate.. we have NO CLUE what is going to happen to the gliders as long as we continue to genetically attempt to alter them..

A look at all breeds of animals can just about tell you where the gliders are heading.. not only best case scenerios, but also worse case..

nothing racial here.. but you have enough line breeding and inbreeding continue to go on, and you will have defective genes that will be passed on.

it is hard enough learning to deal with the everyday medical issues, and then you throw genetic altering in there and it opens a whole new set of doors that even the vets , labs and animal experts won't be able to figure out.

no reason to be offended by a general statement.. it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. after all "the sun is shining bright" is a general statement.. but in another part of the united states it could be raining..

i agree bourbon, i will only buy grey nothing like the original and better yet if i could get a wild caught id love it. i have the last of a dying breed my angel is unfortunatly too old to breed or i would since shes never been with a male. and is 6 yrs old. her parents were wild caught imports. from new guinea with the rounded face we no longer see and the large size. i call her my new guinea girl. today they are getting smaller and pointier faced. maybe someone should get some new imported stock somehow to get rid of the problems that are occurring as a result of inbreding and that was told to me from an aussie vet i e mail who has gliders living into their late teens. he said to me too bad you cant get some fresh bloodlines since they no longer export.

Genetic alteration is much different than selective breeding. Nothing is necessarily genetically altered when it comes to the glider variations that we see. Within all animals lies genetic variation. It's the key to the survival and adaptation of each species.

Genetic alteration involves direct manipulation of genes such as the insertion of spider genetic code into that of a cow so that the cow produces spider web silk proteins in it's milk. This type of genetic modification has dangerous potential, especially when the animals get out into nature.

Yes, I do agree that there are breeders that breed nasty gliders of special variations without regard for the impact that those genes will have further down the line. But, you've got to consider that these variations are in their early stages and most people are more concerned with establishing a broader genetic pool.

But, I don't see how the nasty demeanor of gliders can be attributed to color breeding. I'm sure there were nasty gliders before color variations came around. I don't think that the fate of colored gliders is that hazy. I'm not sure what we don't have a clue about? They are phenotypically different. Their physiology is the same as other gliders.

Just because the fur is a different color doesn't mean that a systematic defect will be attached to the glider's organs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
I don't see that there are any physical conditions other than sterility that are synonymous with color breeding. Every animal on this earth is the result of millions of millions of years of selective breeding ala Mother Nature. We're all still here. As time goes, people will note which gliders are ill, and appropriate decisions will have to be made. I'm pretty confident that the health of gliders in captivity will improve in the future as we learn more.

HA-HA I must remember your quote "the sun is shining bright but it may be raining" Made me laugh. Have a good day.

When gliders are selected for breeding based strictly on their color you can place whatever scientific name you want on the process but it boils down to poor breeding practices. And the species is going to eventually be in trouble.

An albino in any species of animal is a genetic freak. But some of the color breeders will jump at the opportunity to get their hands on one for breeding. All other characteristics are overlooked in the hopes of producing another albino or a variation of color. I can't see how anyone in any way would call this responsible breeding or preserving or improving the species.

We need to be looking for charcteristics like health history, heartiness, longevity, personality and inbreeding. The color should be secondary to these standards.

Mary and I were just talking and discussed how people will say how little color matters. Yet they will spend $500 on a WFB or some other colored glider when they could get a couple of healthy standard gray rescues for free. Go figure!
Charlie H

I agree that if a breeder selects solely on color, then they aren't making a completely positive decision. But, we are at the beginning of a very long road.

Yeah albinos are an unhealthy genetic variation, one of the reason's I have no desire to breed them, other than the fact that I do not like any animal with red eyes....

I agree to what you all are saying here, and I am glad to here that we are talking about this topic for the benefit of our gliders. To me nothing is more important than that.

Great topic and wonderful discussions by everyone. Just to let you know we do not look at Sugar gliders as vermon in Australia as their numbers are just not great enough to be pests. They are very shy and although found commonly in my neighbourhood I have never seen one in the wild. Compared to the local possum population which is very friendly and numbers are unbelievable. (Up to 6 in my yard in one night) Tommorow I'm going to a local school that has several nesting boxes in the grounds that have sugar gliders in them. Another local school unfortunatly often finds glider tails in the school yard after a feed from some local owls.
Our gliders seem to only come in the grey and do look quite different to the many photo's I see on GC. Interesting that our Gliders don't appear to have the health problems you guys have. Perhaps due to diet or the fact that they are not very common as pets hear.

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...evolution is happening on a small scale right now. It's a process called microevolution, and we are inadvertently creating a new animal by establishing a population within a restricted region...
Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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When you say new animal, you mean new variety of animal, right, not a new species? We've tried, but humans haven't been able to 'evolve' one species into another. It's pretty universal, "every living thing produces its own kind."

[quote Actually what is being observed with our captive North American gliders is a perfectly natural process; evolution is happening on a small scale right now. It's a process called microevolution, and we are inadvertently creating a new animal by establishing a population within a restricted region (namely the North American pet trade) from a genepool, that though limited, is still capable of establishing completely, healthy animals. It's not necessarily a bad thing,

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The thing is when microevolution occurs, it is the animals selecting whome they mate. What makes the american gliders different is that it it us (an external force) that decides whome will breed with whome for traits we desire and not ones that are benificial for the species. We are breeding for traits that we think look nice (eg colour) and not those that will help the species survive and prosper.

For an example the girraf has a very long neck because over hundreds of generations the animals with the longer necks were able to get access to more leaves and thus more food. They were therefore were healthier and able to produce more offspring. Whereas those with shorter necks couldn't reach all the leaves needed to feed them so they weren't as healthy and thus produced less offspring. This is only one of the factors that lead into the elongation of their necks over time.

There's another factor that must be considered; Time. We've changed the appearance of the american glider in a matter of a few generations. Whereas evolutions happends over thousands of years (though there is documentation of quick sparatic changes in genology of a species though they are rare).

Just putting another perspective on the situtation.

Tasha

this would make an awsome science project!!!!

Sugar gliders are diverse enough within the captive bred population to be considered inbreeding. The colored population of gliders however must be monitored and right now there are but a few dedicated breeders keeping records on bloodlines. Most of the information is just genealogical and is not detailed enough to spot trends over time. The entire captive bred population is not however a closed gene pool. There are still imports coming into the US via some of the mega breeders. There are even breeders right now trying to get colors in from Indonesia. As long as we are still able to import animals into this country it will never be a closed gene pool.

Australia is closed for the importation of sugar gliders and so the vast majority of gliders are from Indonesia, is it any wonder that they are different from Australian gliders. Sugar gliders in the US seem to have adapted well to life in captivity. They breed readily and live longer than their native counterparts. We have seen very few instances of any genetic defects. Sterility is only a real problem with colors, and only a very small percentage of them. Captive gliders in general are doing well. There are probably 25,000 or more gliders in the U.S.

I feel that there is too much concern being made over the general populations stability. We need to concentrate on the color variations, albino especially. Inbreeding is necessary to stabilize a color in the population. breeders need to be as selective as possible with the animals that they are allowing to breed.

I was told just yesterday that one way the importers are getting gliders from Australia is legal. From what I was told...keep in mind this is third hand...that gliders can be exported from Australia to New Zealand. Then exported from New Zealand to the US legally. If this is indeed so, then some of the big importers of gliders in the US are indeed getting Australian gliders, just in a round about way.

I am that third hand, lol. Anyhow, I did speak to a large breeder Sunday, in person, she also has many other exotics including other exotic from Australia. And what she told me that yes importing from Australia is not allowed, but importing from New Zealand is allowed, and that is how exporters down there get around it. They are allowed to send to New Zealand, and then from there, here.