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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: StitchsMom]
#826868
08/24/09 06:33 PM
08/24/09 06:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
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Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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The mesh I use is plastic mesh(just like the stuff in the Stealth wheels) because 1)it's cheaper and 2)I was too much of a chicken to use the metal stuff since I was worried about the horror stories I'd heard about the gliders getting sick from the coated metal mesh. Teresa, thank you for that article! It says, "The symptoms include decrease in growth rate..." and "the gall bladder becomes swollen". Well, the joey I'm handraising seems to only be growing about 1/3 the amount of a normal joey AND the 2 joeys that have the giardia were just about 40g at just 12 weeks old and looked like they were about 6 weeks old! They're growing, but are STILL really tiny. :\ Also, it would explain why the gliders got giardia in the first place...because it lowers the immune system and allows secondary problems to pop up! That might also explain Leda's UTI and her minor respiratory infection that the vet found when she did the x-ray. Anyways... I took Rosa to the vet and the fecal smear was negative for giardia, but the vet is doing a snap test and a C&S to check for giardia more thoroughly and to also check for a possible infection. We won't get the C&S test results til at least the end of the week though. So, for now, it's just a watch and wait period. She didn't take blood or do and x-ray yet because she wants to wait and see what the other tests show first before doing the more invasive procedures. If the tests come back negative or Rosa haves more seizures or gets worse, then I'm going to ask her to please just do the bloodwork/x-ray now, rather then waiting. She called her lab to see if they could check the bedding/mealies for aflatoxins and she said that it would take a while to get the results because they would have to send it off to an institute to have it tested and it would also cost $200 just for the test. So, she told me to call around and find a local Grain Elevator and see if they can test it instead because we'll get the results alot faster AND it will be cheaper. So, I'm going to call around tomorrow or go into town and see where I can get the test done. There's a Grain Elevator in our town, but I have no clue about what it is, so I'm not sure if I just walk in or have to make an appointment, lol.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: StitchsMom]
#826907
08/24/09 07:34 PM
08/24/09 07:34 PM
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ZooMama
Unregistered
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ZooMama
Unregistered
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What type of calcium supplement do you give them? A lack of calcium in marsupials has been know to cause "back leg paralysis".
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: ]
#826932
08/24/09 08:14 PM
08/24/09 08:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Their diet is HPW. The HPW doesn't have a 2:1 cal:phos ratio, but it has enough calcium to keep gliders from getting HLP. However, there are certain health problems that will show what look like signs of HLP and those are what I've been talking to my vet about to test for them. At the moment we're testing for Giardia and certain types of infections. If those show as negative then we'll be looking into bloodwork to check for anything as well as to check Rosa's cal:phos levels. Also, if blood is drawn, we'll be doing an x-ray as well to check and see if anything else is wrong that might show up in an x-ray. The main suspects right now are: infection, giardia, or aflatoxin poisoning.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Guerita135]
#826937
08/24/09 08:19 PM
08/24/09 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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BTW, thanks for offering your help and advice Susan. I know you've have gliders for many years, so if you have any idea of what might be wrong with Rosa, I appreciate all the help I can get. Since Rosa is originally YOUR little baby, then I'll be sure to keep you posted on her, especially if it might be something that could be genetic(although I doubt it, since it's also in one of my other gliders, who is completely unrelated). I should have emailed you about her, it just completely slipped my mind in all the chaos and I wasn't sure if you were still out of town.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: DirtyPaws]
#826950
08/24/09 08:38 PM
08/24/09 08:38 PM
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ZooMama
Unregistered
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ZooMama
Unregistered
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It seems that you are checking all possibilities. We have never had HLP in any of our gliders nor have we had the symptons that you described. I have had gliders become clumsy and uncoodinated when dehydrated, but nothing like you're describing.
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: ]
#826996
08/24/09 10:30 PM
08/24/09 10:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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The C&S is to test for a bacteria infection and the snap test is to test for giardia.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Guerita135]
#827114
08/25/09 02:35 AM
08/25/09 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979 Wisconsin
Feather
Administrator
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Administrator
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979
Wisconsin
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Nicole,
Just got home and saw your post, I am so sorry your going through this. I hope you are able to find a cause and a resolution to the health problems your suggies are having.
I will keep you and your gliders in my thoughts and prayers.
Kimberley Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Feather]
#827228
08/25/09 12:29 PM
08/25/09 12:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Well, I got the result of Rosa's giardia snap test and it was negative. So, now we're waiting on the results of the C&S. Also, I had to take a different glider, Leda, to the vet today because one of her mammary glands was swollen and hard and she had goop in her pouch. It turns out that she has a yeast infection and mastitis...on TOP of her already being sick! Poor Leda.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Guerita135]
#827243
08/25/09 12:51 PM
08/25/09 12:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839 roseville, mi
hwh4ev
Glider Addict
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Glider Addict
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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oh my god, i hope you and your poor sugies will be okay. good wishes and good luck are being sent your way. take care.
regards, nancy in detroit
regards, nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: hwh4ev]
#827251
08/25/09 01:00 PM
08/25/09 01:00 PM
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monluvspagen
Unregistered
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monluvspagen
Unregistered
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Nicole I am so sorry you are having such a hard time...
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: ]
#827361
08/25/09 03:14 PM
08/25/09 03:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916 Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb
Serious Glideritis
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Serious Glideritis
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
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There is nothing like the pain for a slave who's babies are not well. Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers
cyndiekb I & miss you HALEY My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at AtticWorx
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: cyndiekb]
#827401
08/25/09 04:42 PM
08/25/09 04:42 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,027 Iowa
Lindsay
Glider Guardian
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Glider Guardian
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,027
Iowa
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Wow Nicole, I hope you figure out what is happening with your babies. Keeping you in my thoughts and praying things will work itself out.
If you need anything let me know.
Lindsay
Lindsay
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Lindsay]
#827435
08/25/09 06:31 PM
08/25/09 06:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,022 indiana
flutterbye
Glider Guardian
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Glider Guardian
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,022
indiana
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Just checking to see if there is any news?
Shelly
~enhance your life, own a suggie or four~
Slave to 4 very spoiled suggies~Ginger,Spice,Penzey and Pepper 1 very spoiled black German Shepherd~Annie 1 very spoiled black standard poodle ~Ty 1 dove
Rest in Peace my dear Sadie...mommy loves you! 4 parakeets 55 gal fish aquarium
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: flutterbye]
#827635
08/26/09 01:03 AM
08/26/09 01:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Nothing new Shelly. It will be a couple more days til I find out if Rosa has an infection or if we need to do more tests. I'm hoping she's just got an infection because that's treatable. For Leda it's just a matter of treating her and keeping her as comfortable as possible while she gets better. I do have some slightly good news though...the other day, for the first time, Chief and Arby had solid poos instead of diarrhea! They're the joeys that have/had the giardia. Because their poos are finally normal again, I'll be getting them tested for giardia again to see if it's finally gone or if we need to do one last treatment.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: Guerita135]
#827698
08/26/09 07:08 AM
08/26/09 07:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,022 indiana
flutterbye
Glider Guardian
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Glider Guardian
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,022
indiana
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That is good news!!!
Still sending healing thoughts to you and your gang!
Shelly
~enhance your life, own a suggie or four~
Slave to 4 very spoiled suggies~Ginger,Spice,Penzey and Pepper 1 very spoiled black German Shepherd~Annie 1 very spoiled black standard poodle ~Ty 1 dove
Rest in Peace my dear Sadie...mommy loves you! 4 parakeets 55 gal fish aquarium
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my gliders!
[Re: flutterbye]
#827740
08/26/09 09:57 AM
08/26/09 09:57 AM
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Chelsie
Unregistered
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Chelsie
Unregistered
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Great news Nicole! I will pray that the tests come back negative and your babies are on the road to recovery!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: finnessa]
#828442
08/27/09 01:01 PM
08/27/09 01:01 PM
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Aimee_K
Unregistered
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Aimee_K
Unregistered
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So sorry to hear all the bad news! Will be keeping you in our thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery for all of your babies!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: ]
#828448
08/27/09 01:10 PM
08/27/09 01:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Thank you all! We'll take every prayer, good thought, and good vibe we can get! I talked to the vet yesterday about there being possible thyroid problems with the gliders because many of the symptoms fit Leda AND one of the early symptoms of thyroid problems is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. "Carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS), or median neuropathy at the wrist, is a medical condition in which the median nerve is compressed at the wrist, leading to paresthesias, numbness and muscle weakness in the hand." Sound familiar?...that would explain why Rosa and Arby both had problems with their back feet. :\ Also, Rosa and Leda both have really low heart rates and heart problems are often caused by thyroid problems. *sigh* So, the vet's going to talk to the lab and see how much blood they'd need to do check the thyroid levels. Hopefully it'll be an amount we can get!
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Guerita135]
#828478
08/27/09 01:57 PM
08/27/09 01:57 PM
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Chelsie
Unregistered
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Chelsie
Unregistered
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That does make sense!! I didnt know gliders could get CTS! Best of luck and please keep me posted! I have been worried about you and your babies!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: ]
#828494
08/27/09 02:14 PM
08/27/09 02:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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I didnt know gliders could get CTS! I have no idea if they can or can't, I just know what I'm seeing and have no idea how else to explain it... However, thyroid problems are often caused by diet problems(from what I've read, calcium, magnesium, and iron levels all effect the thyroid), so that just leads us right back to their diet. I'm putting Leda on a different diet, so we'll see if that helps. If it does, then I'm going to be changing my other sick gliders over and go from there as far as switching everyone else. Leda's one of my oldest gliders and she was on HPW before I got her, so if anyone would be showing diet-related problems, it would be her, since she's been on it the longest. HPW is a new diet and has only been around a couple years, so it's very possible that it could have long-term effects that don't show up until a couple years down the road... I don't know and don't want to assume things without proof, which is why I've been discussing it with my vet and have made and given her a complete nutritional analysis of the diet for her to look at. She's been speaking with a nutritional expert about the diet and is going to get back to me about it when she's got some more definitive info. I also mentioned the soy protein used in the diet since soy is an area of debate as well as far as to it's safety. http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm"Soy also contains goitrogens - substances that depress thyroid function." "Soybeans are high in phytic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds. It's a substance that can block the uptake of essential minerals - calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and especially zinc - in the intestinal tract....Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy- and grain-based diets prevents their absorption." I think it's definitely something to look into and that we should try and use meat protein rather then plant protein due to what I quoted about. Depending on what the vet says and what happens when I switch Leda's diet, I'll be posting more about my diet findings and what I've learned by talking with other members of the glider community.
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Guerita135]
#828559
08/27/09 04:11 PM
08/27/09 04:11 PM
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BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
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BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
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I've really been following your posts closely Nicole... I really hope your vet can find something soon! It's always the unknown that hurts. WHPS (Wombaroo High Protein Supplement) has been used in Australia for many years, not in sugar gliders diets and not in the large portions that HPW calls for. It was created and used only as a top dressing (sprinkled) on fruits and veggies. So, maybe the large quantities of soy are not so good.. which I know soy in general is a big debate. Please keep us posted!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: ]
#828591
08/27/09 05:11 PM
08/27/09 05:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800 St. Johns, Florida
Srlb
Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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I've been watching this pretty close myself. HPW is a new diet and has only been around a couple years, so it's very possible that it could have long-term effects that don't show up until a couple years down the road Nicole I have actually been using HPW diet for 5 years now. Pockets has been using it a lot longer than myself. I do believe we ARE indeed missing something. Whether it is something that needs to be added or something we need to take out. I just believe if it were the HPW diet, we would be seeing alot more of the same issues. I just hope they find out exactly what IS going on with your gliders. Its frustrating to say the least when you know there is something wrong, you want to fix it but dont know what it is to fix.
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Srlb]
#828598
08/27/09 05:24 PM
08/27/09 05:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,408 Merriam KS
Dani4Hedgies
Glider Slave
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Glider Slave
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,408
Merriam KS
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Nicole, I am so sorry to hear about Arby and Rosa I will we are all sending hugs and healing thought your way to you and your babies may we get to to the bottom of this and get everyone well.
Dani Marshall(816)377-4443 Slave to Patrick my Human Son And in service too Queen Jem Drop & King Stripes, New Prince Cristal looking for his Princess/Queen In Memory too Addie,Igor,Heangel,Bashful,Doubledip,Sparky,Misty, King Badger, Badger Jr.,Queen Seabee, Princess Willow.
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Dani4Hedgies]
#828683
08/27/09 08:38 PM
08/27/09 08:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645 Ohio
Guerita135
OP
Glider Addict
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OP
Glider Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Peggy, I agree. HPW is still new, so it's going to have to go through the tweaking and fine-tuning that all the diets have gone through. So, maybe if it turns out that this IS diet-related, then perhaps the problems I've having right now will help us to make the needed changes so that no one else has to go through it. I'm waiting to hear what my vet finds out about it and am interested to see what the other vets(they have an online community too, lol) have to say about it and about the soy content. Perhaps if the soy is the problem then we could simply look into other sources of the vitamins that the Wombaroo contains. I don't think it'd be too hard to find a suitable way to get our gliders what they need. I've been trying to find the nutritional content of Acacia gum, but, as of yet, have been unable to find it. I figured that starting with what gliders eat naturally would be good. Perhaps adding a few more bugs for added protein and calcium would be good as well. I was also thinking that it would be a good idea to be a bit more strict on the veggies/fruits that are fed with the diet. As you pointed out to me, Peggy, I'd been focusing solely on the calcium and phosphorous levels, but I think we need to look at the other vitamins and minerals that we feed as well. Because too much of a bad thing can be just as bad as too little. :\ I DO love the simplicity of the HPW diet, so if it turns out that the problems are diet-related then I can honestly say that I will truelly miss being able to prep all their food in about 15 minutes! lol As for why it has effected who it has effected...we're not sure... we only have theories at the moment, so I'll share my thoughts: *I think that with Leda it's because she's older. *With Arby(I'm only listing him and not his brother because he's the only one who had the "seizure"), he's already got a compromised immune system and weakened body because of the Giardia. *Rosa...I'm not sure about...however, my theory is that PERHAPS it has something to do with her being a cremino het. Both her parents were original 100% cremino hets with garnet-colored eyes that Susan pulled from her breeding stock. So, it's possible that they were related. Both that and the the albino gene(because creminos ARE albinos. They're T+ Albinos) may have caused her to have a weaker immune system or something. I'll have to speak to Susan about it if Rosa turns out to have an infection. We'll probably find out the results of the C&S test tomorrow or Saturday. Hopefully we can finally get something conclusive soon because I can't take much more of this not knowing. My brain's hurting from all the research I've been doing(and I'm sure some other people have headaches too from talking to me on the phone and helping with the research, lol).
~Nicole~ Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy!
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Dani4Hedgies]
#828694
08/27/09 08:51 PM
08/27/09 08:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800 St. Johns, Florida
Srlb
Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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Ok Nicole, I have a couple questions as I am really trying to help find other things you can look at so bare with me here. I may forget a few things, or get some things backwards, so if I do straighten me out so I can make the right notes to pass on please. First of all, is Arby short for Arbitor? As I couldnt find an Arby on your site, but figured it was short for Arbitor. If I am correct, was he Precious's last joey before she started pulling or rejecting joeys? There may be a connection there, maybe there was something wrong with him from the get go?? This would cause her to reject/pull any of the remaining joeys if there is something going on with her, or something going on with the joeys. Rosa, I went to look up her lineage but you only have the mom and dad listed. Do you have more lineage on her and if so, if you could send it over to me I would appreciate it. (Dont people throw things at me for this next statement) But since she is from a cremino line, we are trying to keep any and all issues that are arising within the cremino/albino line listed and trying to trace back the lineage as far as possible to see if there is ever a common ancestory or have similar issues. Now as for Silvara, wasnt she once paired with Gilthanas? If so, could the possible mate change be what is the issue with her? The yeast infection and Mastitis more than likely is not diet related, but maybe from the meds she was already on or a mealworm shell or something to cause the yeast infection? I just have a hard time understanding why more gliders out there would not be showing problems if it were diet related. There are SOOOO many folks that use the HPW (and I am talking about the powder itself, not the mix) I'll definitely be keeping track of things...taking as many notes as I can. Is there any way you would be willing to send over vet records on all the ones that you have taken in already Nicole so I can take it to show Tim and see what he thinks??
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid
[Re: Guerita135]
#828699
08/27/09 08:58 PM
08/27/09 08:58 PM
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EzzieM
Unregistered
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EzzieM
Unregistered
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I'm not very familiar with the HPW diet, as it is not the one I use, So forgive me if this seems a silly question: Do you use a calcium supplement in the diet at all or is it solely based on the calcium content of the ingredients? If you use a calcium supplement, is it the Herp Calcium or Glider cal, or something else? the reason I ask: it's been suggested that the balance in the Herp calcium supplements is off (for gliders: being that it's made for reptiles) to the point that even though it gives the gliders calcium, they are unable to absorb and use it, or they get too much. And furthermore; If the Supplement has D3 in it: the D3 causes additional complications. I wish I could remember where it was that I found that, and to be honest, I don't even know how much of that is even accurate... But I didn't notice it being suggested, so I thought I'd throw that out there. good luck, I really hope you guys figure it out soon!!!
Last edited by EzzieM; 08/27/09 09:01 PM.
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