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Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053250
01/10/11 03:52 PM
01/10/11 03:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict
xSwtxSugaX  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO

(double post)

Sorry smile

Last edited by xSwtxSugaX; 01/10/11 03:55 PM.

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053261
01/10/11 04:10 PM
01/10/11 04:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
Let me start by saying I'm NOT out to "get" anyone. Tho I am out to try and get people to understand that this wet method has more risks to it then benefits. There are medical and mental risks to the gliders that are having to endure this procedure. I've now heard over and over again that the reason this is being done is because the gliders involved are sm-ers and this method will get them into a cage with another glider thereby stopping the sm behavior. sounds great doesn't it? If it works this well in theory it could be a God send. As a rescuer myself I understand the issues that led to the method being tried. However, this method causes undue stress on the gliders which can cause many health issues, won't list them again as Dancing has already done a great job of that in a prior post on this thread, and the method may be causing mental stress as well. So I asked if by chance was this method being used under the supervision of a vet? That question ws never answered. Here's was my reason for asking. If it ws being done with a vets knowledge then at least the gliders involved would also have a vet that knew whay they may be ill and what to do to help them. If no vet is involved then I feel the health risks are just too great. So simply put I have no issue with ED and Gail. I feel that they have done very good by gliders for years and their experience shouldn't just be thrown away. Now understand me clearly if I sign any petition at all it will ONLY be a petition that lists the reasons we feel this method shouldn't be used asking that they not use this method. That's it! Nothing more nothing less. Do I want a good experienced rescue closed? NO! We all make mistakes in life. I'm asking that we learn from them and not repeat them.

Now onto the insinuation that I'm out to cause trouble. I'd hope my behavior and reputation speak for themselves. With any post I have made I have never attacked anyone. I have however repeated that I don't condone the method and will never reccommend it's use. I have also pointed out that there are major reasons that ths method can lead to health or mental issues for the gliders enduring it. But I have attacked no one because that is just not who I am or what I am about.

Lastly, I have also seen it posted that those who oppose this method are hiding. Look at my signature my website is linked and my phone number is also listed. I am certainly not hiding from anyone.

In closing I want to repeat I am not against the people just the method.

Last edited by hpyhwn2003; 01/10/11 04:59 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053275
01/10/11 04:27 PM
01/10/11 04:27 PM

B
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
B



My head is swimming and I don't want to go back and look for the post, but someone posted that the shower is not supposed to be running ONTO the cage. Before it dissapeared, I saved one picture on my computer of this "method" being used. It was one shared on another venue, and nobody told the person that they were "doing it wrong". In fact, other similar pictures are being used on another glider board to show the proper way to do it. In the picture I have, you can CLEARLY see the shower water is falling directly into the cage of gliders.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Lucky_Glider] #1053282
01/10/11 04:53 PM
01/10/11 04:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider
Now am I just being stubborn in the face of your "votes" on the glider equivalent of the peoples' court? No not at all. In fact, if the method does not work or the gliders that we joined start fighting and hurt each other (because they were "forced" and it just wasn't meant to be) then we will sadly separate them. And we will tell everyone we did and that our hopes that the method was a good thing were dashed - and that we were wrong.


From all that I've heard of you and what you do I truely believe that you will in fact do as you state here. This is all that I was "fighting" for and for this I thank you.

Don't get me wrong tho I still do NOT condone it's use by a new unexperienced owner nor would I, who is an expereinced owner and rescuer, ever use it.

Last edited by hpyhwn2003; 01/10/11 05:01 PM. Reason: My spelling sucks today.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053284
01/10/11 05:00 PM
01/10/11 05:00 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



The comparison of bathing a dog vs. this wet method of intros? There is no comparison, sorry. My dog doesn't like water true..but when its bath time, I try and "sidetrack" him by giving him treats with one hand and talk to him while washing with the other. It's a pain and I get water all over me but my dog is NOT restrained...and if he actually wanted to clear the tub and run out of the bathroom...he can. He is also not forced to stay wet...he shakes, gets me even more wet, but my hubby hands me a warmed towel and he gets rubbed down and dried off...immediately.

And since other animals are much much larger than gliders, they are probably not going to stress as fast. Not that they don't stress, I think they can just handle it better.

I still do not agree with this method...and my opinion is..its cruel.

My Lethe was a single kept glider for almost a year before I got Tippy for her. There was no depression, no self mutilation, no negative behavior from her at all. She got just as much attention as my other cages, and she is in fact my only bra baby so I was able to have her on me most days (not at work). Every glider is different. So to say that ALL single kept gliders will harm themselves, stop eating, get depressed is not factual.

And like I said earlier...if a glider shows agressiveness towards another glider people want to house together...clearly this animal is trying to get his point across...he does NOT want to be with the other glider...so find an alternate course of action...not wet both gliders and force them to live together.

IMO that isn't good for the gliders at all. Take their feelings into consideration. They are animals, but they are not stupid.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053285
01/10/11 05:01 PM
01/10/11 05:01 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



The comparison of bathing a dog vs. this wet method of intros? There is no comparison, sorry. My dog doesn't like water true..but when its bath time, I try and "sidetrack" him by giving him treats with one hand and talk to him while washing with the other. It's a pain and I get water all over me but my dog is NOT restrained...and if he actually wanted to clear the tub and run out of the bathroom...he can. He is also not forced to stay wet...he shakes, gets me even more wet, but my hubby hands me a warmed towel and he gets rubbed down and dried off...immediately.

And since other animals are much much larger than gliders, they are probably not going to stress as fast. Not that they don't stress, I think they can just handle it better.

I still do not agree with this method...and my opinion is..its cruel.

My Lethe was a single kept glider for almost a year before I got Tippy for her. There was no depression, no self mutilation, no negative behavior from her at all. She got just as much attention as my other cages, and she is in fact my only bra baby so I was able to have her on me most days (not at work). Every glider is different. So to say that ALL single kept gliders will harm themselves, stop eating, get depressed is not factual.

And like I said earlier...if a glider shows agressiveness towards another glider people want to house together...clearly this animal is trying to get his point across...he does NOT want to be with the other glider...so find an alternate course of action...not wet both gliders and force them to live together.

IMO that isn't good for the gliders at all. Take their feelings into consideration. They are animals, but they are not stupid.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053297
01/10/11 05:44 PM
01/10/11 05:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Just because YOU don't restrain your dog, doesn't mean that no one does. To elaborate.



Again. I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm trying to show you how absurd it is to say that "their way is wrong" just because YOU don't do it. I'm not saying that the 'wet' method is right, not even remotely. Nor am I saying that I would do it. I'm pointing out that pointing fingers because you don't do it is just as wrong as doing something that could be harmful to the animal. Do you get what I'm saying?

Edit: I do hope no one takes what I say personally. I'm just trying to prove a point about pointing fingers.

Last edited by Jos; 01/10/11 05:51 PM.

Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053309
01/10/11 06:13 PM
01/10/11 06:13 PM

L
lovely1inred
Unregistered
lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



I think even talking about bathing dogs is confusing the issue. Dogs are not gliders and are not nearly as prone to stress issues. It was JUST last week that a rescuer LOST a glider at the veterinarian's office due to a case of severe malnutrition and the stress of being in the vet's office pushed that little girl over the rainbow bridge. Mind you, this rescuer was not waiting about to go to the vet - she went straight from picking the gliders up out of the reported situation, directly to the vet, and because she was already so weak, she went into respiratory distress and passed with a vet on site.

Malnutrition is a common problem in rescue gliders and I really think the stress of this type of method must be taken into consideration, especially with rescue gliders.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053313
01/10/11 06:32 PM
01/10/11 06:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
I appreciate the passion, sense of morality and good points everyone is making. This has been a real learning experience for us - and we try so many things over the years to improve the quality of life of gliders. We also share everything we have tried. For those of you who are outraged by the method, I completely understand. I can only tell you so far that the animals in question are displaying much improved behavior now that they are together.

Now try to appreciate that with a large volume of rescues, there is quite often an occasion where animals are kicked out of colonies or come in solo with all kinds of problems associated with being single. It makes me cry when we try so desperately to nurse them to a healthy state and then in doing introductions nothing seems to work - even the traditional (slow and more natural) forms of intro. We've published a lot on those methods and they work sometimes.

I don't know how many introductions any of you individuals have actually done. We have attempted over 100 and have a lot of experience with it. It works only half the time with the time-honored slow intro / bedding / cage swapping method. Even after repeated attempts.

Now to just give up on a single who sits their wasting away and over-grooming and running in circles - I say to allow that to continue without trying something else is abusive. This is a quality of life issue and so many people are concentrating on a few hours of discomfort. Please have a sense of scale and put years upon years of hopeful peace and tranquility in the balance. Please.

When intros do not work, and you've seen the SM and over-grooming and you are just torn up over it - believe me your perspective changes and you are willing to try even something that looks radical to improve the quality of the gliders' lives.

For the record, in the method I have used twice:

1. We do not use a shower or hose to spray them down. With the four individuals in question, I held them and let tepid water in a small trickle run on them and worked the water into their fur with my hand. Yes they wiggled and they probably hated it. I felt terrible but there was a larger purpose in this and for their own good in the end (admittedly only so far...)

2. I turned the heat up high in the room I used. It was about 75 degrees in there. They were NOT shivering and shaking and going into shock from cold. They were not cold. If they showed any signs of shock I would have aborted the procedure and not tried it again.

3. The mouthwash I used was the no-alcohol kind. I can see dropping this altogether from the protocol if in fact we ever feel compelled to use the wet method again. None of the four reared away, snitted, crabbed, screamed, ran in circles or in any way showed discomfort at this part.

4. I fed them in the morning, 12 hours later than what they are used to. Now if there was a nutrition problem or a glider was really skinny or pitiful, I would have fattened them up first before trying this. But all of our gliders eat like pigs and get a very well balanced, high protein diet so none of the four were going to pass out or have a problem having their meal delayed.

5. Stand vigil. If you are going to try this, or any other introduction method, we advocate staying close to them so you can hear and see them the whole time so you can break them up if they fight and so you can make sure they are OK. In both cases, after they jump in the pouch, they have groomed each other and rubbed all over with the fleeces in the pouch and got dry pretty quickly.

What we do *not* recommend:

1. Doing this method just for the "convenience" of combining cages with gliders who are perfectly happy and healthy

2. Spraying them with a hose or high pressure shower, etc. It's uncomfortable enough. I think it's better to hold them and handle them to get them wet.

3. Continuing the method if there is shivering, or shaking or seizure or any other outward manifestation of medical danger.

A few of you have made the point that the information on this subject should not be released in the public domain or on YouTube, or where "Newbies" can see it. Yes that is the double-edged sword of publishing glider care info. I've been dressed down for sharing ratio info and involved nutritional info because it "scares" away newbies and makes them think they are going to kill their gliders if they don't feed the way I say. I have been dressed down for speaking out against color breeding and taken to school by all the breeders that hate me for talking about how breeding for color is a distraction, etc. I've been threatened by mill breeders for the series of YouTube videos we published on debunking mill breeder lies.

So you are talking to someone who has taken very strong stands on issues that could be characterized as animal rights and animal abuse issues. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. My rationale for using this method has nothing to do with earning money from gliders, or stirring controversy, or just enriching myself. It's just for the gliders and improving their condition. That's all. My motivation is completely pure. Now maybe I am just wrong and if it ends up this method fails the four in question I will be mortified but I will crawl back to you all with an "I'm sorry I was wrong."

So you see, I (we) are no stranger to controversy. We just speak our minds like all of you do and publish what, in our judgment, may save a few glider lives. It's really that simple. This method in fact is not for everyone just like doing stunts you see on tv is not for everyone. But that is not going to keep us from sharing what we know, what we observe, and what we believe. We're in it for the gliders and in it to improve, even if it is controversial, the quality of their lives. I will go up against any official, any ACI, any agency and all of you (respectfully of course) and defend our practices if I believe the gliders benefit. When people come to visit (inspect) us, audit our medical records, check out our gliders and other animals, no one ha ever concluded we are "abusing" gliders. Our position is that it's abusive to allow a lone SM glider to spiral into depression and death. So I am living in a grey area maybe but no hypocrite. There are often exceptions and I believe this method (the way we are doing it anyway), used for the right reasons and under the right circumstances can be a life-saving Godsend for some solo gliders. And until you have really seen the sadness and sickness I am talking about you really don't understand, although I completely understand the gut reaction people have to this. I wish you all, and all of your animals peace.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053414
01/10/11 10:08 PM
01/10/11 10:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave
WintersSong  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
Ed, while I don't at all approve of your method either, my real issue with this method is how others are using it.

I've seen at least two posts about people using it to make their life easier. The gliders these individuals used it with had cage mates, and were NOT unhappy by any means -- the owners just wanted them all in one cage. I get that desire to have them all in one cage, but this method is NOT justifiable in those cases.

Also, the people who posted about using this method seemed to do it quite a bit differently than what you describe.

A photograph shows the gliders in a teeny tiny cage, being sprayed by the shower hose. The poster of the photograph comments that she left them in that situation for an hour.

A video shows the gliders sprayed by the shower hose.

The mouthwash.. YOU say non-alcoholic, however the actual instructions for this method (that are published on another board) do NOT say non-alcoholic.

I have an issue with this method being published on a site that attracts a great deal of newcomers -- many of whom seem to be looking for the easy way out. Now that this method has been noticed on this other forum as being a "success" more than a failure, I am wondering how long it takes for people to say: "hey, try the wet method of introductions!" any time a newbie comes in and asks for advice on wet introductions.


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053419
01/10/11 10:25 PM
01/10/11 10:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave
WintersSong  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
Also,
I have an issue with mouthwash being used in general.

This may have already been said here, but at the risk of being repetitive..
Mouthwash is something even WE aren't supposed to shallow. It says right on the bottle. Why then would it be okay to put even a minuscule amount on a glider who is going to groom themselves (using their mouths)?


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: hushpuppy] #1053423
01/10/11 10:32 PM
01/10/11 10:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Kimberlyann Offline
Glider Lover
Kimberlyann  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
.

Kimberlyann, I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.


You say I missed the point, but you have missed the whole picture. You are saying it is ok to get a glider wet, but we are talking about the whole process of the wet introduction here. It's more than just getting a glider wet, that is the tip of the iceberg!

And the practice of leaving the shower on with the cage in the tub for an hour as some have suggested, I feel is the equivalent of waterboarding. I don't think that you could tell a prisoner of gitmo, it's just water, people get wet all the time....


Kimberlyann

:grey: :wfb: :leu: :plat: :bb:
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: hushpuppy] #1053431
01/10/11 10:44 PM
01/10/11 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave
WintersSong  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
Originally Posted By: hushpuppy

I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.


I don't understand how we can compare wild animals to our pets. The wild animals are exposed to the elements, whereas ours have been sheltered from them. To me, that's a pretty important difference between the two.

Also, I think that there is a large difference between a wild animal getting caught in a rainstorm (from which they can seek shelter), and forcing them into a small hospital cage and hosing them down with the shower hose. Quite a difference, IMO. This is, of course, not what Ed is saying he does, but it IS what has been documented by photographs (now deleted, though I believe Robin saved one?), and video (if the video is still there).


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053527
01/11/11 09:58 AM
01/11/11 09:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Some kind person had the presence of mind to ask some really good questions of LGRS (in private) and I am going to post the questions here and elsewhere because everyone should benefit from the intelligence of the questions and (hopefully the answers).

1. Have you discussed this with your vet? I would want to hear how the vet felt about the method.

Strangely, no. In fact as I look back on it, I probably should have because we confer with a variety of vets on most health issues with gliders. Instead, I just used my own judgment after meeting face-to-face with Terry (Kazko on GG) and hearing of his experience. Clearly, we chose a *variation* of the method he used.

That said, our long-time and best vet, Dr. Christine Kolmstetter has given us advice on joining or re-joining singles back into their colonies after surgery or other medical problems. And she has weighed-in on introductions in general. Her advise has been, even in the face of "breaking quarantine" that it is better to do whatever you can to join lone gliders because of the stress of being alone and their overall quality of life. She has explained to me that she can fix a bout of Giardia easily, but that the stress some animals endure from being alone is far worse. Clearly, not all singles self-mutilate, run in circles and SCREAM (not crab) in the corner when you try to approach them. Sadly, we have a lot of experience with this.

2. How bad were the gliders you used this on? SM/depression/etc.

Great question. With Dizzy, she was (is) a serial SMer. When she was surrendered (family in NM who's kid moved off to college and stuck mom and dad with her gliders) her mate had died two months earlier. During that time she stripped all the fur off of her head and one whole side and parts of her neck. Parts of her were red with scratch / cuts. We successfully joined her with Bonnie, an over-groomer who was initially on chlomipramine to curb her picking at herself. After a month of being together, both of their fur grew back to almost normal. Sadly, 9 months later, I found a giant open wound on Dizzy's back. We separated them. We nursed Dizzy back using hydrotherapy, honey treatments, and Baytril. When she healed, we then joined her with Darla, one of our pets (hand raised from joey). Darla had been kicked out of her colony and had a huge wound on her back but it did not seem to be a mating wound. During her convalescence, she was not herself - very lonely. Dizzy being a "sanctuary animal" and not about to be adopted out - presented us with a problem because there were no other suitable gliders to put her with because we did not want to consign that animal to sanctuary by joining it with Dizzy. So we considered joining Dizzy with our pet Darla. In this particular instance, our motivation for using the wet method was Dizzy's condition was deteriorating rapidly. In our judgment, the slow method of introduction was... too slow. I got them both wet in my hand, put them in a hospital cage for one hour, then put the pouch in. They jumped in, groomed each other, and within a few hours they were dry. I transferred them into a clean cage with clean bedding in the morning and fed them. So far they both seem happy and they are sleeping together and Dizzy has stopped ripping out her fur. This was strictly a timing issue.

In the case of Ginger and Clyde... Ginger was very stressed out and frightened, hiding when we fed her food and treats, and screaming when we cut her nails or tried to console her. She was kicked out of her (too large) colony of 9 as the low-on-the-pecking order glider. She received a giant bite which was partially necrotic. We took her to the vet and followed with Baytril, open wound hydrotherapy and honey treatments. It took over a month for her to recover. Since then we have tried other traditional methods to join her and she attacked anything that moved - including Clyde. Clyde is the son of Bonnie from the "Tank" colony the namesake of which has since passed away. Clyde, after years of being with his three sibling males, was ejected after his father died. Bonnie had long since been separated owing to two mating wounds so we never re-joined her after that. We had tried several traditional introductions with Clyde and he too, like Ginger, displayed the Alpha/Aggressive behavior and bit other animals. Unlike Ginger, Clyde do not display high amounts of stress, but the prospects for Ginger were grim given her behavior. I used the (modified as above) method on them. Afterward, Clyde did chase Ginger around the cage for the first night but he did not bite her. I was ready to throw in the towel thinking the method was "just forcing something to happen that was not meant to be." But then the second night he stopped being aggressive and the third they slept in the same box. Since then they've been fine. And now Ginger behaves like a "normal" glider. Not screaming and running away, being interactive, running on her wheel, and approaching us when we have treats for her. A whole different glider.

3. What other methods did you try and for how long?

We have various methods we have used and we have taken the time to publish them in an "introductions guide." One method is the time-honored "swapping bedding / swapping cages / moving cages closer" method. Over the years, we have tried this method many times but we have found that it only works 50 / 50. We have also tried the "put them in a common pouch around your neck while they are sleeping" method. That has worked maybe a dozen times. We have also done the "put them in a scent-free neutral playground" method and that is hit and miss. We have discovered, strictly through observation that no matter what (non-wet) method you try, if a glider decides to be dominant or does not like the scent of another glider - he attacks. Maybe 50% of the time. Doesn't matter what method. We believe it is all about scent and dominance. That's why, under particular circumstances, we think (so far anyway) the wet method can be used when the other methods have been exhausted.

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior. We seek a lot of counsel from vets and other glider experts. In the end, this is a careful judgment call. And we feel we acted in the best interests of the gliders in question to improve their quality of life. Especially Dizzy and Ginger. If they could talk they may say to you "Boy we hate being wet but that was only a few hours. Now I have a friend, I'm much happier and more stress-free than before."

With regards "hiding it from the public" that is a big ask. We for years have gone out of our way to publish our findings on medicine, behavior, diet, etc. and some of that has met with controversy. But this is a good question. I for one have spoken out against showing videos on YouTube of gliders sitting on dogs' or cats' backs - because so many gliders are maimed or killed by cats and dogs. So for that kind of "publishing" which we don't see any redeeming value in - we object. But with something like this method (as modified) the purpose of publishing it is in the hopes that single gliders who are wasting away and SMing could be saved. So it's a double-edged sword. I am open-minded to "hiding" it but the other thing is that's not the nature of what we are about at LGRS. We have always had it as part of our charter to share our experiences with the glider community.

But... if we do in fact discover that the joinings we have done were "not meant to happen in the first place" and that they are ticking time bombs and the two pairs hurt each other and the whole thing fails.... Then I will be happy to say so and then withdraw our condoning it under certain circumstances.

I would also like to post an appeal for all of you who are considering a "petition." This is a democracy and for you to do that is certainly your right. But please consider a few things:

1. We have stated our reasons for trying this method (as we have modified it) as being righteous and in the best interests of the particular animals in question. The prospects are GRIM with certain lone gliders so the alternative is not an option unless we can find a better one. My moral and ethical compass is right on track. If I am proven wrong, that under these particular circumstances it will blow up and unravel in a few weeks or months - I will retract my support of it and admit I was wrong. But I will NOT admit I was wrong to try it. You come here and look a glider in the face that is self-mutilating and tell her we are giving up trying other methods. Try that.

2. I find it ironic that some people would mount an offensive against our 501(c)3 without so much as a phone call or some kind of direct dialog with us to understand what we are doing, what we are not doing, and why. I've said it before that we are an open book and unabashedly and regularly publish our findings, good or bad, so others can learn. This is one of those. Will we change our position. We may in fact change our position. We will strive to learn more from vets, from you, and from our gliders. We will share this learnings.

3. I would love to see all the breeders get together and "petition" themselves to set aside 5% of their breeding income (if you have income) and donate it to 501(c)3 glider rescues. Now that's something to put your energy into. To feed, house and rehabilitate some of the gliders you crank out that are surrendered. Maybe LGRS would not be a recipient because you don't agree with our practices. But that's the kind of energy and activity that should be more worthy of this community - versus making our humble rescue operation out to be villainous. (I am not calling anyone out in particular - this is just a general appeal)

Thank you all for your patience and understanding and intelligent questions.

We continue to be, at the service of unwanted gliders, and seeking to improve the quality of their lives.

Many thanks, Ed @ LGRS

P.S. We don't think a shower is the "right" way to get them wet if in fact you are compelled to get them wet for some legitimate reason. We have not done that.

P.P.S. The mouthwash thing, even though we used the non-alcoholic kind, could easily be dropped from the protocol. We are sensitive to everyone's feelings on this issue and although we did not observe any behavior that would indicate it hurt them, there is no reason to stubbornly hang on to that if it adds no value. Thank you all for your feedback on this.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053538
01/11/11 11:06 AM
01/11/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
xoerikae Offline
Glider Slave
xoerikae  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
would you mind conferring with more than one vet, and letting us know? id love to hear what theyd have to say smile

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053559
01/11/11 12:53 PM
01/11/11 12:53 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
Ed thank you for your clarification's! Although I still feel that there is nor has there ever been a need for this method and I do believe it is cruel along with inhumane and would hope that any new owner would NEVER again be told they should use this method! I commend you for every rescue you have helped and for you sharing your opinions and experience's but I feel this is one experience that should not have been put out there for unexperienced glider owners to see!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053564
01/11/11 01:06 PM
01/11/11 01:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
wclanton423 Offline
Glider Guardian
wclanton423  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
Personally, I do not think this method should be made public. There's to high of a chance of a newbie seeing this, not following other options, and not following the directions that something horrible WILL happen to their gliders. A vet should have been consulted no matter how many years of experience one may have with gliders and those who are against this method should consult your vet to hear what they have to say.

Ed, if the community has numerous vets that say this is abuse, wrong, and causes more stress, would you stop using this method?


Whitney

~Southland Sugar Gliders~


Mommy to:
:grey: :rtmo: :leu: :wfb:
my dogs, Duke and Nikki
my cat Puma
my awesome bunny Swayzee

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053570
01/11/11 01:36 PM
01/11/11 01:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict
Sherri  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
I know that I have already heard from one vet on the subject of this wet introduction and his exact words were "this is crazy and cruel and abusive".

Those words came straight from Dr. Tristans mouth.

And I believe that if a vet doesnt agree and endorse something than I'm not going to either.


I moved from in town to out in the country and when we moved my dogs barked quite a bit during the day since they werent use to all the new sounds.

I had a neighbor try to tell me how to break them from barking, even though I knew given a little time for them to get used to things they would stop. And they did.

The neighbor had used this treatment on his own dogs when he used to have dogs and it worked for him.

Everytime my dogs started barking I was to go out to their kennel and hose them down. That they would get the idea and learn to stop barking. Needless to say my neighbor and I never saw eye to eye the whole time we lived there. I was apalled by his idea at how to get dogs to stop barking.

As I am apalled at this wet introduction! Its just not something healthy to do for the gliders health or mentally.

I would love to hear from other vets as well. And I hope to soon.


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053572
01/11/11 01:39 PM
01/11/11 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
I am posting here today my response to a post made over on GG. I am only doing it because I feel that everyone here should also be privy to my response. I am only posting my response and not the post that led to my response as that would violate GC rules, at least I believe they would. So If you want to know why I felt led to respond as I did you'll need to go there and read that thread.

This is what I posted:

hpyhwn2003 Joey IL, USA 66 Posts
Today : 11:04:53 AM

@Catman: Glider Central closed the original post becase it went the same path this one did. It was not much better than a bash fest. As they don't allow that there they closed it and later reopened another thread warning everyone to be civil. I agree with what they did and will continue to stand by them in the decision they made. I question why the same thing wasn't done here on Glider Gossip by the owner. On to your next post: I can not and will not try to tell why others are upset as I am because I am not them and have no idea what they are thinking. I can tell you why I think they feel this way tho and that is that the method can be dangerous to a glider's health and well being, the effects of the method haven't been truely seen yet (that will only show with time), and some of the steps used in the method are cruel and in fact according to most animal protection laws are illegal (for instance with holding food). Just so it's clear I also feel that the method needs to stop being used now. We have voiced our concerns to Ed as he is a rescue that by his own admission has this method twice. He has replied that he will continue to use the method unless the intros fail and the gliders need to be seperated. That is sadly unacceptable in our eyes and we feel it will also be in the eyes of the proper authorities. We feel the issue is not wither or not the method is a success but rather that the steps of the process are cruel and inhumane. No one wants a good rescue with years of helping gliders closed. What we'd like to see happen is that he'd agree to stop using the method until he can first change some of the steps to make the steps humane and second determine if there are any ill effects to what has already been done. That is all we're asking for. Is that really too much to ask?

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053601
01/11/11 03:03 PM
01/11/11 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
hpyhwn2003 Offline
Glider Addict
hpyhwn2003  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,636
In paradise
Well GG is hopefully going to do something about the thread there as this is what I get when I popped over just now
Viewing of this Topic is not permitted until it has been moderated.
Please try again later

All I can say is yay.

Edited: Well it appears that I was wrong about them actually taking the time to ensure their thread is civil because I can view the thread as long as I'm not logged in. If I am I get the above response. Tho they have not banned me from the site yet they are not allowing me to view this thread.

Last edited by hpyhwn2003; 01/11/11 03:14 PM.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053616
01/11/11 03:55 PM
01/11/11 03:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Yes, they pulled it and now there are no posts expressing the hows and whys this "method" is cruel to gliders.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053665
01/11/11 06:11 PM
01/11/11 06:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 275
Colorado Springs, Colorado
kyro298 Offline
Glider Explorer
kyro298  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 275
Colorado Springs, Colorado
It wasn't "pulled". It was flagged enough times (by members) that it was removed for admin review, as with any thread that's flagged enough times. I'm sure it will be back. I also don't know why you think you'd be banned?

GG runs it's site the way it wants to, GC runs it's site the way it wants to, LGG runs it's site the way it wants to and on and on. For the 4 years I've been around, that's never been different and probably never will be. There are people that prefer to be a part of different forums for different reasons.

I assume, as with GG, when a thread is pulled here, it's moderated or at least reviewed, before it's returned to the public to see. It's only been gone a few hours.


Kylah

5 sugar babies-Skitzi, Daddy, Zoomerang, Shiloh, Maddox

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053668
01/11/11 06:16 PM
01/11/11 06:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 275
Colorado Springs, Colorado
kyro298 Offline
Glider Explorer
kyro298  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 275
Colorado Springs, Colorado
edit**Not sure why this double posted

Last edited by kyro298; 01/11/11 06:17 PM. Reason: double post

Kylah

5 sugar babies-Skitzi, Daddy, Zoomerang, Shiloh, Maddox

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Sherri] #1053708
01/11/11 07:31 PM
01/11/11 07:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Sherri
I know that I have already heard from one vet on the subject of this wet introduction and his exact words were "this is crazy and cruel and abusive".

Those words came straight from Dr. Tristans mouth.

And I believe that if a vet doesnt agree and endorse something than I'm not going to either.


I moved from in town to out in the country and when we moved my dogs barked quite a bit during the day since they werent use to all the new sounds.

I had a neighbor try to tell me how to break them from barking, even though I knew given a little time for them to get used to things they would stop. And they did.

The neighbor had used this treatment on his own dogs when he used to have dogs and it worked for him.

Everytime my dogs started barking I was to go out to their kennel and hose them down. That they would get the idea and learn to stop barking. Needless to say my neighbor and I never saw eye to eye the whole time we lived there. I was apalled by his idea at how to get dogs to stop barking.

As I am apalled at this wet introduction! Its just not something healthy to do for the gliders health or mentally.

I would love to hear from other vets as well. And I hope to soon.


Are you equally appalled at the state of an SMing glider who rips out all of the fur on her back? Are you equally appalled at a depressed and stressed out glider that just runs in circles at the top of the cage and screams when you try to interact with her? Does that appall you? Please I once again beg all you people judging us to take into consideration the circumstances in which we used the (modified as we said) method in order to improve the quality of life of these *particular* gliders.

I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.

Had I spoken to him, I'd tell him about the animals in question, I'd tell him all the other methods that failed and ease him into the radical experiment of "wet" and tell him the outcome. Who knows maybe he'd say the same thing, but maybe not. It may all depend on the approach.

Did you tell him that an SMer we had is no longer ripping our her fur? Did he get that? Did you tell him we had exhausted other methods? Or did he hear:

"Some crazy jerk is hosing down gliders to force them together don't you think that's horrible?" (as I have stated before we did not spray them).

I propose a healthy balance self-righteous outrage and being appalled with the facts at hand and how the individuals in question have at least, for now, benefited greatly from this method.

Here is what we are going to do:

We are going to wait to see the outcome with the two pairs. After a few months, I will share my *findings* with more than one vet and see what the consensus is. Now that the well is poisoned with Dr. Tristan I hesitate to darken his doorstep having already been villainized.

I reckon I will have to talk to other vets before the hysteria of the moment polarizes all of them so no one will want to hear from us.

I don't want to declare too much success beyond the initial coupling at this point because in our experience introductions can fall apart as long as several weeks to a month afterward.

If it does not work out, I will tell you all like I promised.

And all of you can then judge me (again) and that's OK because I do not publish all the things we publish to get your "peoples court" permission. I post relevant news on what we are doing with gliders in the hopes that through people who read the post, it may in turn benefit a glider. That is my motivation. This is just another circumstance in which we have shared (albeit unpopular) information in the hopes that other single, depressed, SMing gliders can be saved.

During this waiting period, I will not use the method again. It so happens that at the moment the other two singles we have are more or less sanctuary animals that for medical reasons can't be introduced so for the time being we will not feel compelled to use the wet method.

Meanwhile, for those of you who feel very strongly about wanting to help these rescue gliders feel free to contact us, visit us and take some home. Dizzy and Darla are not adoptable but Clyde and Ginger are. We also have plenty of other healthy gliders to choose from. Pairs and big colonies too.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Lucky_Glider] #1053712
01/11/11 07:42 PM
01/11/11 07:42 PM

L
lovely1inred
Unregistered
lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior.


Dr. Tristan is clearly a glider vet that understands their behavior. Are you altering the method?

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053714
01/11/11 07:53 PM
01/11/11 07:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
xoerikae Offline
Glider Slave
xoerikae  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
im not ready to force ed to change his ways. i want ED to talk to dr tristan, and i would love to see BOTH sides of the conversation, preferably not in a copy paste form.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053715
01/11/11 07:56 PM
01/11/11 07:56 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



Quote:
I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.


You say the lot of us are jumping the gun and are too quick to make assumptions based on us not knowing you or the inner dynamics of your rescue but....you're doing the same thing with the above statment regarding Dr Tristan.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053720
01/11/11 08:20 PM
01/11/11 08:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: buttercup
Quote:
I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.


You say the lot of us are jumping the gun and are too quick to make assumptions based on us not knowing you or the inner dynamics of your rescue but....you're doing the same thing with the above statment regarding Dr Tristan.


I stand *partially* corrected. Recognize that I qualified my comment by saying: "That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night." But apparently that qualification was insufficient to escape your scrutiny. I will try to be more careful in my qualifying statements in the future.

The point I was trying to make is when someone is enlightened on a subject he or she is often influenced by the vitriol of the speaker. That is why I hesitate to "darken his doorstep" now that he has made a polarizing statement prompted by an outraged constituent. I will solicit the input of other vets now who I will carefully explain the circumstances to.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053728
01/11/11 08:33 PM
01/11/11 08:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Some of my observations and opinions.

I am consistantly drawn to your assumption that we are all new to this or have no experience or that none of us have dealt with large numbers of gliders or self mutilators or over groomers or depressed gliders or neurotic behavior in gliders or that we have not spent countless hours standing vigil over gliders in order to help them get physically healthy as well as emotionally and mentally healthy.

I am constantly amazed that you believe that all lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life.

I am also amazed that you are promoting a method that has proven to be used OTHER than the way YOU would use it and all without seeing the danger of that promotion and endorsement.

I am saddened that you have not blogged about any of this and further explained your limitations (of it being used for "at risk" single gliders instead of just to combine multiple cages for the benefit of the owner).

I have been struck time and time again about your mentionings of being 501c3 when that status has zero to do with the care of gliders and is merely a tax status. You have made it seem like you believe that only 501c3 rescues are legitimate.

What I don't see is any consideration of how or why this is viewed as cruel and parts being unlawful (mouthwash and with holding food). In my opinion, I see a spotlight that is casting bad light in a direction that can have serious ramifications for gliders.

I don't see where you have given any consideration to the concerns of other glider owners other than to try to justify your own actions. And that's fine, it is your right.

I have concerns for the pair you have up for adoption as they could be placed at any time and you would not be there to monitor their situation and act to resolve any disputes these two gliders may develope (which I believe they will).


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053731
01/11/11 08:37 PM
01/11/11 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior.


Dr. Tristan is clearly a glider vet that understands their behavior. Are you altering the method?


Jessica if you look just above your post you will see a fairly detailed account of what I intend to do. I not intend to solicit the input of vets who have already had their well poisoned by people who have not represented our circumstances. Now if everyone runs out and "campaigns" with well known glider vets ahead of me talking to them you have all stacked the deck against me. I shan't engage in such high school antics.

And if you read further you will see that I have already consented to alter the method regarding the mouthwash. And if you read further back you will also note that I did not use a shower hose on them but got them wet in my hands with a slow trickle of warm water.

So let's get straight the "method" I used:

1. Held gliders in hand, trickled warm water on them and worked the water into their fur to make them wet. dabbed non-alcohol mouthwash with a cotton swab on cloaca.

2. Put them in small hospital cage for about an hour in a 75 degree heated room.

3. Introduced a pouch with fleeces in it where they went to dry off and groom each other.

4. With three sides of the cage draped, put light on the other side to encourage them to stay in pouch. (they did).

5. Outfitted and cleaned big cage with toys, pouches, wheel, box, etc.

6. Put gliders in big cage in morning. Fed them in morning and again at regular time at night.


The two resulting pairs from our two tries at this are so far doing very well. One has stopped ripping out her fur and the screamer/circler is acting normal.

So no, there was no hose or shower spray, no cold. No gliders experiencing hypothermia shivering in the corner with icicles forming on their noses. They may have been disoriented and uncomfortable for a few hours but in my view, we probably saved a few gliders from a life of misery and depression and for Dizzy SMing - having exhausted more time-honored methods that we have been teaching and publishing for years.

So let's get it straight what we did do, what we did not do, what our motivation was and what the initial outcome has been. That's what I would have told Dr. Tristan had I got to him before an outraged appalled constituent did. I'd rather start fresh with a vet who's well does not get poisoned first. As you can imagine I am loath to say who they will be at this point.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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