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Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053735
01/11/11 08:42 PM
01/11/11 08:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis
Cora  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
This is the great state of Texas and animal cruelty laws are a little different here. unless these animals are being starved or dying in their own filth/carcasses(sp?) then there is not any petition in the world that is going to help your case! Sorry guys, been talking to lots of people. there was talk of getting those laws changed a few years back but I dont know what came of that. animals are livestock here and not held with as much regard as other states.
I have no opinion in this matter at this time but would like the tour you have offered. Some of my friends might want to come. no trouble, just a tour. We are a friendly bunch really. I dont mind cleaning some cages while I am there if I can bring my steam cleaner and natural cleaner from suncoast, just takes a short time per cage and kills bacteria! smile


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053736
01/11/11 08:43 PM
01/11/11 08:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
You keep saying that she was self mutilating. If she has wounds, she should not have been placed with another glider.

If she is only over grooming, then a companion may help. But it should have been a companion of HER choosing. To do other wise might stop the behavior for now as I'm betting she is in emotional shock still over what happened. But what are you going to do if/when it returns?

And have you ever seen photos of my Reep?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053738
01/11/11 08:44 PM
01/11/11 08:44 PM

L
lovely1inred
Unregistered
lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



So basically, because Dr. Tristan is not your vet of choice, you are disregarding his input in the matter. Got it.

Would just like to say, I've never spoken to Dr. Tristan personally but as a vet that consults with other vets across the county, he is highly respected in his chosen field.

Tell me then, what does Dr. Christine Kolmstetter say when you list to her, your steps of method to introduction, and do it impartially as you say that an "appalled constituent" influenced Dr. Tristan.

Oh, and constituents are VOTERS not glider owners.

I asked a very simple question and I think you are taking this far, far too personally and using degrading comments that are not necessary.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053743
01/11/11 08:52 PM
01/11/11 08:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
wclanton423 Offline
Glider Guardian
wclanton423  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
BTW, an e-mail was sent to Dr Tristan and this is all the email said:

"Here is a new way of introducing gliders...
Share your thoughts about it with me please"

There was no bashing, just EXACTLY what was posted on your blog.


Whitney

~Southland Sugar Gliders~


Mommy to:
:grey: :rtmo: :leu: :wfb:
my dogs, Duke and Nikki
my cat Puma
my awesome bunny Swayzee

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053745
01/11/11 08:53 PM
01/11/11 08:53 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



Quote:
did he hear:

"Some crazy jerk is hosing down gliders to force them together don't you think that's horrible?" (as I have stated before we did not spray them).



You should give him a call...ask HIM what he was told or asked. I don't think he'd lie about it, he's a professional.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053746
01/11/11 08:53 PM
01/11/11 08:53 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
They reopened the thread on GG...Well people can read it but no one can comment!

Last edited by carolinasuggies; 01/11/11 08:54 PM.

Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Dancing] #1053767
01/11/11 09:37 PM
01/11/11 09:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Some of my observations and opinions.

I am consistantly drawn to your assumption that we are all new to this or have no experience or that none of us have dealt with large numbers of gliders or self mutilators or over groomers or depressed gliders or neurotic behavior in gliders or that we have not spent countless hours standing vigil over gliders in order to help them get physically healthy as well as emotionally and mentally healthy.


I never said you were all new to this. I have stated the perspective we have as a rescue. I have to state my perspective in the odd chance that *some* of you may in fact not have the same perspective and are not rescuers. Clearly you being an old-timer at this may take some offense at the implication, but you are not the entire audience. Most of what I say is pointed at people who *don't* know things. That is the purpose of posting on these forums - not as a mutual admiration society of people who are already experienced.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am constantly amazed that you believe that all lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life.


You are misquoting me Teresa. NEVER have I said that *ALL* lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life. What I have said is the simple truth - that solo gliders have a tendency towards overgrooming, stress, depression and some self mutilate. NEVER did I say that *ll* lone gliders are doomed to a pitful life. I DID say that Dizzy seemed to be consigned to that life based on her bare back and that Ginger was an emotional mess. But I did not say that of all of our single gliders did I? No I did not.

In fact, I have blogged and posted on little Oscar who is 10 years old, who came to us 8 years old having been a single his whole life. So we do in fact have experience with single gliders who have "made it." He was introduced to two other gliders this past year and is very happy. We used a traditional method of introduction by the way.

But the sad fact is most singles who have been single for more than a year - the ones we have had experience with anyway - are not happy campers.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am also amazed that you are promoting a method that has proven to be used OTHER than the way YOU would use it and all without seeing the danger of that promotion and endorsement.


I think you are saying that I have created ambiguity in promoting the "wet" method and was not careful enough to qualify the way I changed it or why. And that by not qualifying it I was in fact endorsing the "fire hose" part of it. Well that's true but now that I have poured my guts out here and on GG and detailed everything for you and everyone else to judge, there is not much more to say. Anyone having the presence of mind to read everything I have said should see pretty clearly that we did things a little differently.

I have also addressed the issue of the "double edged sword" of sharing and publishing experiences and how it is a judgement call on some things. In retrospect, I wish there was a way of sharing things like this only with the "people who are not a danger to themselves and their animals" but I just don't know how to sort it out. I have been admonished on this site in the past for "scaring new people" about diet and ratios so I just quit posting here. I am only here now because of the PR nightmare I created by sharing, once again, our findings. I don't think I will stop doing that but I don't think I will go out of my way to share things here initially because too many of you jump all over me whenever I come here. you guys are just too tough of a crowd.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am saddened that you have not blogged about any of this and further explained your limitations (of it being used for "at risk" single gliders instead of just to combine multiple cages for the benefit of the owner).


I am saddened that if you are such a fan of my blog that you wouldn't just say: "Hey Ed, how about adding some disclaimers or such." Gee if you read my blog so much why wouldn't you just post a comment or two instead of editorializing from afar?

That said, I have peppered this post with all kinds of qualifications, restatements, and a few concessions. I think I have been pretty accommodating Teresa.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I have been struck time and time again about your mentionings of being 501c3 when that status has zero to do with the care of gliders and is merely a tax status. You have made it seem like you believe that only 501c3 rescues are legitimate.


Gee if you were so struck time and again why did you wait until now, when we are under fire to say anything? So now that I am kind of down and being kicked from all sides you come out with things you didn't like about us all along that should be thrown in to the pile-on? Wow.

To us it is not merely a tax status Teresa. Let me explain why. After Hurricane katrina, the Federal govt. cracked down on 501(c)3 status filings and it was harder to get the designation. There were 30 some odd pages that had to be submitted including a lot of background information on us personally and of course background on the operation. Our motivation in getting the 501(c)3 was to make it easier for us to a) get grants, b) get free booth space at adoption events, and c) give some relief to people who donate to us so they can write off donations. And in the process of getting those things the 501(c)3 is an entry point for discussions that is actually on the checklist for people to talk to us. So it's not just a tax status - it is a point of due diligence for outfits that insist you have it to cooperate and help the rescue. None of this implies that we are "better" than rescues who do not have the designation Teresa. It only implies more scrutiny befalls us because we put ourselves in a position to ask for things that 501(c)3 is a prerequisite for. So no, it is not about how we think we are "better than" as you seem to imply here - it is about opening ourselves up to more scrutiny so we can get more money (or save money) to help the gliders. Geez, you really are looking for ways to think the worst of us aren't you.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

What I don't see is any consideration of how or why this is viewed as cruel and parts being unlawful (mouthwash and with holding food). In my opinion, I see a spotlight that is casting bad light in a direction that can have serious ramifications for gliders.


Teresa, in an earlier post I had already conceded that we can drop the mouthwash from the protocol. So if you don't see that as a consideration you simply didn't read my concession. Regarding the witholding of food, this is only a delay until the morning. I have said (maybe on the other site but not here) that I would not try this on skinny, emaciated gliders but only on gliders I had already fattened up. The offering of food during introductions is a big mistake and I have written about that for years and in fact have published advice on that before. Delaying their feeding time until the morning is not that big of a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime event that will improve the overall quality of their lives.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I don't see where you have given any consideration to the concerns of other glider owners other than to try to justify your own actions. And that's fine, it is your right.


That is not a very charitable or accurate comment. I have gone out of my way to carefully explain the rationale, benefits and hopeful outcome of what we have done here. I do that not just to justify my own actions but also to respect peoples' comments and to respectfully answer them. For example, if I did not care about your feelings or what you say, I would have just blown you off. But I am taking the time to answer your questions which should be consideration enough. I must admit all of you are really starting to wear me out and I don't have much more to say. So if I don't show up here for a while please understand that it is not because I don't care or don't want to "give consideration" but because you have all just worn me down to a nub. Which is what seems to happen whenever I make my yearly pilgrimage to this site.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I have concerns for the pair you have up for adoption as they could be placed at any time and you would not be there to monitor their situation and act to resolve any disputes these two gliders may develop (which I believe they will).


Actually, that is a good point, and I respect your insight very much. As I stated in the post above, I intend to monitor them closely for a few more months and then weigh in with a few vets before using this method again. So during that period they will not be adopted out. Now, out of respect for your comment and to show consideration for you as a glider owner, I have put a note in Ginger and Clyde's Petfinder profiles indicating that we will not place them over the next few months until we have had a chance to monitor their just being joined.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Dancing] #1053775
01/11/11 09:48 PM
01/11/11 09:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Dancing
You keep saying that she was self mutilating. If she has wounds, she should not have been placed with another glider.

If she is only over grooming, then a companion may help. But it should have been a companion of HER choosing. To do other wise might stop the behavior for now as I'm betting she is in emotional shock still over what happened. But what are you going to do if/when it returns?

And have you ever seen photos of my Reep?


She was SMing when we got her. She stopped when we joined her with Bonnie. Then when she developed a wound, we separated her from Bonnie not knowing if it was SM or Bonnie but we suspected Bonnie. After being alone again she ripped out a lot of hair on her back but no open wounds. But she kept going so we tried this method to join her with one of our pets and she stopped.

No I don't think she is in emotional shock over being wet for a few hours honestly. She has stopped overgrooming and she is snuggling with Darla and eating well and running on her wheel and doing fine


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053778
01/11/11 09:57 PM
01/11/11 09:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
So basically, because Dr. Tristan is not your vet of choice, you are disregarding his input in the matter. Got it.

Would just like to say, I've never spoken to Dr. Tristan personally but as a vet that consults with other vets across the county, he is highly respected in his chosen field.

Tell me then, what does Dr. Christine Kolmstetter say when you list to her, your steps of method to introduction, and do it impartially as you say that an "appalled constituent" influenced Dr. Tristan.

Oh, and constituents are VOTERS not glider owners.

I asked a very simple question and I think you are taking this far, far too personally and using degrading comments that are not necessary.



Oh please you guys. This is just a pile on for goodness sakes. You want me to call him, OK OK OK already I will JEEZ - but I will wait until after I have made more observations on the pairs. No he is not my vet but I already told you I respect his opinion and that I recognize he has a good reputation.

And yes, to the other person who says he's a professional I know he's a professional.

The word constituency by the way goes beyond politics and is perfectly suitable to describe people of influence in a one-to-many relationship.

With regards Dr. K I am not sure why you ask because I have already stated above that I did not confer with any vets on this thing ahead of time and I have already been duly admonished for that so I see little utility in grinding through that point over and over.

With regards me taking this far too personally - what can I say - I ain't but human


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Cora] #1053782
01/11/11 10:02 PM
01/11/11 10:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Cora
This is the great state of Texas and animal cruelty laws are a little different here. unless these animals are being starved or dying in their own filth/carcasses(sp?) then there is not any petition in the world that is going to help your case! Sorry guys, been talking to lots of people. there was talk of getting those laws changed a few years back but I dont know what came of that. animals are livestock here and not held with as much regard as other states.
I have no opinion in this matter at this time but would like the tour you have offered. Some of my friends might want to come. no trouble, just a tour. We are a friendly bunch really. I dont mind cleaning some cages while I am there if I can bring my steam cleaner and natural cleaner from suncoast, just takes a short time per cage and kills bacteria! smile



Wow finally after threats of petitions, admonishments, vitriol, some kind soul is actually reaching out to offer us some help. You are very kind. Please email me at ed@luckyglider.org and we will work out a time for this.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053785
01/11/11 10:10 PM
01/11/11 10:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Yep that is also our observation. We have had colonies in rescue for over a year and then all of the sudden somebody gets kicked out or hurt.

Buttercup was kicked out and wounded recently from her colony after four years of peace.

And Darla - again from hers after four years.



So I guess if four years from now Clyde and Ginger hurt each other our little experiment was a failure? Not if a few hours of discomfort bought them four years of happiness.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053787
01/11/11 10:20 PM
01/11/11 10:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis
Cora  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Sent you an email. Thanks!


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053790
01/11/11 10:26 PM
01/11/11 10:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Last time we are going to say, stop with personal belief attacks. It doesn't matter what one or two vets say, its the law that will classify whats right or wrong. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets has a vet saying what they do is right! Am I comparing Dr T to (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets vet absolutely not, just an example of beating a dead horse over apples and oranges here.


As stated I do not believe in this method and I will state that as well as saying I wouldn't suggest it at all. I will not however beat it into someone that what they are doing is wrong, you will never get anywhere trying to do it that way.

If a tried method proves to work for some you will not convince them its wrong. Laws being made and invoked is what changes peoples ways, and only sometimes. When are people going to learn, I see this happening over and over and over.

Stop standing up a screaming everything that isn't done to your satisfaction is wrong. Yelling at them does nothing, it doesn't help discussing change and maybe even postpones developing newer and better methods. If someone turns and yells at you, your gona get defensive and close up why do people feel they are any different.

I am not nor is GC siding with anyone, we are grown ups and can have civil discussions without the hissy fits and name calling. If you want to continue posting in the manner of breaking the rules, bullying, etc you will be getting no less than a 30 day vacation from GC plan and simple.

Now why not use this thread and time to discuss what can be possibly changed so different methods can produce the same results.

How about the community start trying to find new inventive ways of doing things for GLIDERS and improving things instead of sitting around waiting to pull out their pitch forks and light their torches for a change!

Last edited by gliderdad79; 01/11/11 10:30 PM.

Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053796
01/11/11 10:38 PM
01/11/11 10:38 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
It seem's to keep going in circles I think since the "method" will obviously continue to be used & recommended maybe as a community we should all stop fighting and start working together to help ED tweek the method to be safer and more humane! That is the only option I see here! I for one am completely against it but if it is going to be used anyway I would much rather it be safer!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053801
01/11/11 10:50 PM
01/11/11 10:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
OK... on the new direction, I was wondering... Could menthol or some kind of other odor be used to mask their scent... if that is indeed necessary on occasion (which I am not totally convinced of). Like I tried to explain on GC about the way that raccoon rehabilitators use the menthol on their noses during introduction.

And maybe the wetness could be avoided... like dab some honey on them could provide sufficient distraction (or something... not sure what would actually work or if honey would be a terrible idea).


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053805
01/11/11 10:53 PM
01/11/11 10:53 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
I was thinking maybe vanilla scent something along those lines maybe feed them directly before maybe a mister instead of a faucet if they absolutely need to be dampened (and i mean only dampened not soaked) and making sure the room is VERY warm I dont see the need in soaking the cage if its nuetral! Not sure if honey would be a good idea that may cause a fight but it is something to consider!

Last edited by carolinasuggies; 01/11/11 10:54 PM.

Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053810
01/11/11 10:55 PM
01/11/11 10:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
xoerikae Offline
Glider Slave
xoerikae  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
I totally agree Alicia! My conditions:
1) MORE THAN ONE vet's directions and contributions
2) Something non-toxic being used for scent - vanilla, etc
3) A well heated room.
4) The cage wasnt supposed to be soaked, but some have.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053816
01/11/11 11:00 PM
01/11/11 11:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,837
Florida
BindiAndScrubbie Offline
Glider Slave
BindiAndScrubbie  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,837
Florida
Apparently this should have been posted as a link so I am reposting this from Val, in regards to this method:

http://thesweetspot.forumotion.net/t1112-wet-introductions


Davie

:rtmo:SpoiledRottenSuggies.com

Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy - Anne Frank
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053821
01/11/11 11:06 PM
01/11/11 11:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Happy Birthday suggiemom1980  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,748
Vincennes, IN, USA
Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider



Regarding the witholding of food, this is only a delay until the morning. I have said (maybe on the other site but not here) that I would not try this on skinny, emaciated gliders but only on gliders I had already fattened up. The offering of food during introductions is a big mistake and I have written about that for years and in fact have published advice on that before. Delaying their feeding time until the morning is not that big of a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime event that will improve the overall quality of their lives.

I am a rescue in Southern Indiana. When I do intros and reach the point of them being in the same cage for the first time, I place an abundance of food in various locations in the cage, before they wake up, to prevent fighting over food. It seems to me, that forcing them to wait all night for food and not getting it when expected, would make them even hungrier and more prone to fighting over food.


Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053825
01/11/11 11:10 PM
01/11/11 11:10 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
My thought's exactly thats why I suggest maybe atleast feeding them immediately before the "method" starts!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053850
01/11/11 11:36 PM
01/11/11 11:36 PM

M
Megs
Unregistered
Megs
Unregistered
M



Alicia, I tried letting it be known in the original thread here on GC that MISTING was the ORIGINAL way to do this. I think my post got over looked.
dunno

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053852
01/11/11 11:38 PM
01/11/11 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Megs
Alicia, I tried letting it be known in the original thread here on GC that MISTING was the ORIGINAL way to do this. I think my post got over looked.
dunno


It was evidently lost in the repost.. but, although you noted that that is what the creator of the method told you, it should be noted that the actual instructions (posted on the creators blog) for this method do say to soak the gliders.


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053854
01/11/11 11:41 PM
01/11/11 11:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Ed, I want to first thank you for holding off on the adoption of that pair. I do strongly feel they need time to access whether the introduction is going to last.

A reason for this is, waiting to see what happens when she goes into heat. This is a critical time for newly paired rescues and determining if they are indeed a good match with each other. And just the first heat cycle isn't usually enough if there is a past history of one or both gliders being injured (from possible mating or dominance issues). Hormones can wreak havoc on gliders.

So I do thank you for holding off on that. That has eased some of my concerns a great deal.

You asked why I don't post comments to your blog. Simple answer is because it is a my space blog and I would have to register with my space to post. Last time I registered on my space I got a virus on my computer and had to completely wipe my hard drive. Since I have really outdated software, it takes up to two weeks to get everything back up and current and running again and I often loose so much (like all the photos I lost with the my space virus). If it were not for that, I would have.

501...I do understand the process and the headaches involved as well as there only being a potential for any benefit from it beyond being able to write off some of your expenses. (the grants are still VERY hard to get etc). I do commend you for going through those headaches just as I commend the others that have but in one of your posts, you did make ME feel like you thought much less of those that have chosen not to go that route. Not going that route makes us no less legitimate or dedicated as rescuers. Frankly, the gliders don't care about any of our "money" concerns. They just want love and good food etc. If I read your post out of intended tone, I apologize.

Quote:
No I don't think she is in emotional shock over being wet for a few hours honestly.


This I quoted because I want to address this specifically. It is not just about the gliders being wet for a couple of hours. It is about the whole situation being so foreign to them. It is about being soaked, put in with a glider she had made clear she didn't want to be with, had a strange and foreign scent put on her that she had no way of know if it was something to hurt her or not, left in a cage until she was to tired (and stressed) to care if the only refuge was with that other glider so long as she could get warm and dry. And then left with a light on all night so she would stay in the pouch. It is being treated in such an unfamiliar way that she was (again, in my opinion) bullied into accepting what she had made clear she didn't want. To me, this screams emotional stress and submitting to it, emotional shock.

It may work in the long run but it only furthers her reasons for not trusting.

I see that type of emotional shock on gliders brought to me quite often and it is the hardest to help a glider over come. I have one little girl here now, Syah, who when she came here a month ago was so emotionally shocked that when we would put our hand in her cage to give her food, she would duck and cower like she KNEW she was going to get hit and had given in to the inevitable. She didn't try to run, hide, crab or bite, she just cowered and waited to be hurt, knowing she couldn't avoid it. That behavior is the saddest I've ever seen from a glider. Total resignation. Now, a month later, she eagerly comes to us for treats and seems to crave the gentle pets and ear scratches. We still have a long way to go with her.

I so desperately want her in with a companion so she can learn not to fear us. But that too will take some time. For now, she has neighbors and she has taken a fancy to one little boy, Seti. She just isn't ready to fully accept him because she was hurt and severely bullied by her previous colony. Their first face to face meeting went well for the first 5 minutes until Seti crabbed and she BOLTED away as fast as she could and it was obvious she was terrified. It is like she has PTSD. She experienced such bad things that she is shell shocked and like a war vet will duck from a back firing car, she reacted to his crabbing.

I do not doubt you want what is best for the gliders. I understand the desperation that a rescuer can feel when they only want to make things better for those gliders. I just don't believe that subjecting a glider to such extreme methods is the answer.

And Eddie, I am not attacking, or at least that is not my intention. I am trying to understand and trying to express my concerns.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053856
01/11/11 11:45 PM
01/11/11 11:45 PM
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Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Quote:

I am a rescue in Southern Indiana. When I do intros and reach the point of them being in the same cage for the first time, I place an abundance of food in various locations in the cage, before they wake up, to prevent fighting over food. It seems to me, that forcing them to wait all night for food and not getting it when expected, would make them even hungrier and more prone to fighting over food.


Connie, I agree. This has been my observations as well. Even some of my pairs that have been together for years will act agressively if there are not more than one feeding station in the cage.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053879
01/12/11 12:37 AM
01/12/11 12:37 AM

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Megs
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Sara, you're right.
But that blog is also new. The method ISN'T new.

As I told another person in private when questioned, I am unsure if the creator is the one who 'revamped' the method, or if Ed did.

Maybe Ed can shed some light on this?

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053880
01/12/11 12:39 AM
01/12/11 12:39 AM
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I know MOST of us are against this method I am but it is going to be used (obviously) like it or not so can we not as I have already asked work together as a community to atleast improve the method?? I understand not wanting to feed them together the first night (hence the suggestion to feed them directly before) and then maybe again first thing in the morning! I do believe there are way's to make this method "more" acceptable! I do believe however that vet's should be consulted as well!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053883
01/12/11 12:41 AM
01/12/11 12:41 AM
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I do believe ED stated he modified the wet method!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: carolinasuggies] #1053884
01/12/11 12:42 AM
01/12/11 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: carolinasuggies
I do believe ED stated he modified the wet method!


That is my understanding.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Ed stated that he decided to try the method only after speaking with Terry and hearing how it worked for him?


~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053887
01/12/11 12:44 AM
01/12/11 12:44 AM
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Posts: 1,192
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Yes I am fairly certain he said he met with Terry personally and decided to use the method after that but that he (ED) had modified it slightly


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053890
01/12/11 12:54 AM
01/12/11 12:54 AM

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Megs
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Megs
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Here's what I meant.

Terry created the method. It initially was to be a MIST not a soaking.

Then Terry changed it to what you now see in his personal blog on GG.

Ed has used his own version of the method.

So... Who made the changes first? Terry? Ed?

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