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Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056238
01/16/11 09:13 PM
01/16/11 09:13 PM

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ageber
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after reading this thread, i just wanted to add my 2 cents here. While i would never say i have a fraction of the experience as any one on here, simply speaking from a rational standpoint of life, There are many people who would love to have white or mosaic, platinum, or cremino sugar gliders who simply can't afford to buy them. The way they are usually offered for sale, it seems that the only people who can afford them would be people who plan on breeding them in hopes of making some money or some of their money back. I realize there are exceptions to this.

What is the real harm of breeding and selling or adopting out to good homes pets that look beautiful, are friendly, and can fill the wishes of a kid or adult or family whose financial abilities may be hurting in this economy. I don't know that you are introducing sterility into other lines since the lineage can always be traced. I think you are just producing a nice glider that may be able to be sold at an affordable price. Yes, there is a possibility that someone might breed and not be honest. Its not alot different than someone who is inbreeding in order to keep their lines pure. I thought i read that creminos were bred very close together as there were only a few brought into the country. If i am wrong I apologize. if my facts are not presented correctly, again my apologies. I just wanted to show another view.

I hope i have not offended anyone with my opinion as it is only my opinion and nothing in this post was meant to offend anyone or pass along any misinformation. it is just an opinion.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056369
01/17/11 02:25 AM
01/17/11 02:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
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That would be more of a possiblity if the one or both of the girls were known to be mosaics. But, as leus, there cannot be leu joeys, and there is possibility of sterile offspring... it's just not worth it for grey 100% leu hets that can't breed... so the leu het would be worthless.


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Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056370
01/17/11 02:28 AM
01/17/11 02:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,276
usa
snowbabygliders Offline
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I didn't want to tackle this, but will try smile I would love to have an albino line perhaps or a snowplat line but even tho it may be somewhat attainable now, i can't afford it with all that it comes with right now for my personal life .... responsibility and financially. I would need to divide more time to joey socialization, find room for another cage etc etc.

Offering a sterile line that has potential to at some point damage a non-sterile line is not an excuse to getting a color that anyone may want but simply can't afford. It could be very detrimental to a non-sterile line. There is no 100% assurance once a glider leaves, the lineage will always be traceable from a breeder even. I can only trace my own gliders' lineages 100% and whom they were adopted to as long as i take the time and input it into a database that is used that is most used by the general population within our community, i choose TPG database.. After that, i can't trace anything unless the new owner is responsible enough to input into the database as well, and keep records too. its up to the new owners to keep doing that and so on and so on.... that is the same exact concept as, we can not be 100% sure a glider that is female will never be bred even with a gazillion non-breeding contracts that comes from a sterile line and is bred to a non-sterile line. Furthermore, what if no one knew this happened? We would eventually start showing sterility when we didn't know it existed in a certain line and any offspring already sold as breeding would have it when we assumed it never did.....imagine the issues that would arise. I don't even personally want to think of something like that happening, its scary to me as a breeder.

BTW there are breeders willing to work out reduced pricing for pet-only gliders so one can hopefully afford say a leu pet-only (neutered) or another pet-only color. And furthermore if you can afford a mo from a sterile line and a leu or two leus at breeding price tho one comes from a sterile line, you should be able to afford a non-sterile line. I have my non-sterile mo boy available and I have seen some sterile line mo's with just as beautiful of markings etc for more $ than i am choosing as my adoption fee for a non-sterile line mo. You just have to look around and keep an eye out.

breeders need to breed to improve the lines, offer tame and healthy joeys that are socialized daily and are weened onto a recognized healthy diet like the parents. If you can not do all those things, than IMO you shouldn't be breeding those gliders. Improving the lines(genetics) is also a point made in every animal and even human breeding now actually.

Look. this is also my opinion and i don't want to bash original poster or you at all. hug2 I'm not doing that, i am simply trying to encourage either keeping the sterile line pair pet-only or encourage to purchase non-sterile. When you post in an online community you have to expect various opinions and some may not be what you would want to hear. But, I would want to know if I were the OP if i didn't know that breeding them could be harmful to the glider hobby as a whole. I would be happy that I got some great advice and could make a positive decision from that advice. cool I also feel as a breeder it is a responsibility of mine to speak up to ensure the lines stay clean that we have now if I come across a post such as this one that was created. I know your stating your opinion and asking ?'s too. which i respect 100% thumb I also 100% respect OP for coming to the board asking about sterile breeding. I give OP huge credit for being concerned.

we as a community have come a long way. we have come so far, worked so hard, and only have so many glider lines per color ( some have only 3 lines) since the glider hobby originally started.

yes in the beginning of the hobby( many years and years ago) all we had were a limited amount of genetic knowledge. WF lines were thought to be recessive rather than dominant and bred together and inbred and issues were recognized, but thankfully we have all came a long way to correct that. Same goes for any other color including creaminos and leus etc. We now have creaminos out there with COI's 3% or less which is very ideal and have very little common ancestors due to proper breeding. Proper = what we as a community agree is beneficial and not directly inbreeding ( neice and unlce etc) etc. we try to go out as many gens as we can on a glider's family tree. I think you must have some incorrect info and just hopefully clearing that up for you. smile We have great creamino lines and of course great lines of all the other color variations. Lets all as a community do our very best as breeders to keep it that way thumb


There is IMHO real harm to breeding a sterile line to a non-sterile line and then offering them as pet-only including females from this kind of pairing. Since gliders have not been purchased yet, there is still time to make a better breeding decision or keep as solely pet-only I explained why in my post earlier. wink



Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056429
01/17/11 08:34 AM
01/17/11 08:34 AM

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ageber
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I completely understand the concerns of the sterile and non sterile lines. something i did not understand a year ago when i got my twin mosaic females from a sterile line from a very experienced breeder.

While I do understand it, I am not sure I am in total agreement with you but the joy to life is we are all entitled to have our own opinions. You make a lot of sense in this regard.

Unfortunately there are many people and pet shops that breed gliders with no regard to the lineage and therefor no one would have an idea of what is what. I do believe that while no one can be sure someone does not breed a pet only glider, having some gliders available at affordable prices for someone who has no intention of breeding is not the worse thing in the world. Again, its only my opinion and not meant to offend anyone in any way.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056458
01/17/11 10:10 AM
01/17/11 10:10 AM

L
lovely1inred
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These offspring won't be a special color though. They will be grey. They may have leu het - meaning if they were bred to a leu, THOSE offspring could be all white. But no one would want to breed them into a leu line and possibly introduce sterility there.

Does that make more sense? So they won't be a cheaper way to get a special color....they will be grey, which is not hard to find the color but hard to find with a lineage if you want to breed. With their lineage, they'd be excluded from almost anyone's breeding program. They could be adopted as pet only, but there's no guarantee that anyone keeps their word. Unless you know someone really well, it's very hard to sell a female as pet-only and know for sure it will stay that way.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056473
01/17/11 10:48 AM
01/17/11 10:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
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Kansas
Taking this one pairing, breeding the twins to a standard colored glider are only going to produce standard colored 100% hets that may be sterile. Unless (and the chance is slim) the twins are actually mos then they will produce standard color and mos that are also 100% leu hets and may be sterile.

That is not improving the standard line, that is not improving the leu line, and the mo line/if produced is already damanged.

This pairing will reduce the price of a mo (because it could be sterile) but there are lots of mo breeders out here, like me, who do sell pet mos and a lowered price. This price will not reduce the price of a leu (which it will not produce with this breeding) or plats- it's impossible.

The only thing this pairing will make a reduction in is the price of a standard gray (that happen to be leu hets) and if you can't afford the price of a standard gray... well then you can't afford to own a glider at all.

Then those joeys must be sold to a home that does NOT breed back to a leu/leu het, or you then have a whole line of sterile leus. We have lines of sterile leus now, the price of leus are coming WAY down, why would you want to produce a leu that is/may be sterile?

No offence is taken here. And I hope no offence is taken by my advice. I'm just being honest.

It is a bad pairing, it's not improving the line, it is not making rare babies at a reduced price for those that can not afford them normally, it is making steril gray babies. None of us need that.

People say, I'll be careful where I put them, I'll make sure everyone knows they are/could be sterile. Yes, I believe you. What happens is it is not you that misleads someone, it's the person under you, or under them, the people you sold to. They buy a gray girl, are told it is sterile but is also a 100% leu het, and you don't want her to breed.

This preson gets greedy (we see it all the time) buys another leu het, makes leu babies that are sterile and then sells them locally on craigslist for $300.

The person who bought on craigslist has no idea sterility even exists in gliders, and they do their own breeding.

I do have a sterile mo female. She has only had 2 mosaics in several years of breeding. All grays I had to be very careful with and 1 I am not so sure is in the best place (but of course at the time I did). The others have been neutered.

Right now I am holding onto one of her 2 mos, a girl. And she just had two grays. I have to be very careful with each one.

When I first started breeding her there were not a lot of mos out here. And when you found one you had to pay $4000 to get one. That is no longer the case. There are $500 pet mosaics right now. Really I know, I have several for sale and they aren't even sterile. There is no need to produce sterile gray babies. NONE.

My sterile mosaic is fixing to retire into fat no more baby making zone. There is not a need for the type of joeys she makes. It is filled with more frustration than benefit.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056491
01/17/11 11:24 AM
01/17/11 11:24 AM

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ageber
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ageber
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I agree with both of the last 2 postings about producing potential sterile grey gliders.. I have a leu male with my mosaic females and they have produced mosaic or leu babies not basic grey gliders and that was all i was trying to say. I realize that also in this economy prices are being brought down as most people do not want to spend a lot on pets right now or maybe just can't.

Like i have said, I think it really comes down to each persons opinion. after reading all of these posts, i will just say mine now could go either way as there is some good information here that I was unaware of prior to reading this thread.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056520
01/17/11 01:21 PM
01/17/11 01:21 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
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gliderma Offline
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My opinion is not to ever breed a glider with any problems like sterility so as not to add this into the lines. I'm still trying to understand how sterile gliders can be bred????


Lynn Martel
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989-400-5686
Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056526
01/17/11 01:51 PM
01/17/11 01:51 PM

A
ageber
Unregistered
ageber
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A



apparently only the males could be sterile and based on what i read, not all the males are. I guess they pass the gene along the lines and none of the females are but some or most of the males are.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056527
01/17/11 01:51 PM
01/17/11 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
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Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
ok, to explain it. Sterility has been seen to be x-linked. The male offspring will (most likely) be sterile. So if you were to breed a sterile-line female with an outside male, they will produce, but her male offspring would probably not be able to produce.

Then, if one of the males produces (from one of the above pairings) then his offspring are from producing sterile lines because he did not get the defective x gene.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 01/17/11 01:53 PM. Reason: clarified

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Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
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Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056589
01/17/11 04:23 PM
01/17/11 04:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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i agree with alot of people on this board. there are already alot of beautiful gliders out there from sterile lines at cheap prices.
i dont think it is a good breeding practice to start another sterile line as we have way to many now.
alot of people are trying to get rid of the sterility so why
start another one?

i dont get it. if you must have these gliders enjoy as pet only, dont breed.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056686
01/17/11 08:10 PM
01/17/11 08:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
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GliderNursery  Offline
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: ageber
There are many people who would love to have white or mosaic, platinum, or cremino sugar gliders who simply can't afford to buy them. There have been posts about this before ~ if anyone is interested in a glider, they should ask the breeder if they are willing to sell as pet only. Yes, there are always exceptions. I have had color gliders given to me with no strings attached. I have given gliders away with no string attached. Sometimes all you have to do is ask. Most times a glider is listed with its breeding price, and most breeders will sell (usually males) as pet only for much cheaper. The way they are usually offered for sale, it seems that the only people who can afford them would be people who plan on breeding them in hopes of making some money or some of their money back. I realize there are exceptions to this.

What is the real harm of breeding and selling or adopting out to good homes pets that look beautiful, are friendly, and can fill the wishes of a kid or adult or family whose financial abilities may be hurting in this economy.


The problem with this is that we as breeders have a responsibility to these animals. We throw them into breeding situations, and although they are willing to do the task, they have no choice in the matter. It is our responsibility to ensure that we are bettering the species. Bettering the species is not breeding an animal with a known genetic defect so anyone can afford a pretty color.

Our desires cannot be placed above the well-being of these gliders and they joeys they reproduce.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Sterile breeding [Re: wildlifeangel] #1056694
01/17/11 08:23 PM
01/17/11 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
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Originally Posted By: wildlifeangel
I am happy to breed my sterile line male, and I have no concern about any possibility of sterility in my offspring. But I do respect the opinions of those who don't want those gliders bred into the recessive colors.

(hopefully that all makes sense)


I still do not understand why the breeding of the sterile lines is being done. I have a male from these lines. I was told he had retained testicles. When the surgery was done to fix this(and prevent testicular cancer) it was discovered there were no testicles nor sperm tubes. THIS IS A BIRTH DEFECT! Why *oh lord why* do we keep doing this to these babies?


cyndiekb

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Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056710
01/17/11 08:49 PM
01/17/11 08:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,276
usa
snowbabygliders Offline
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usa
agree i agree! shelly, Alicia, and cyndi stated it perfectly. Couldn't have said it better myself thumb



Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056715
01/17/11 09:03 PM
01/17/11 09:03 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
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gliderma Offline
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Michigan
This is a birth defect and should be treated as such, in my opinion. I hand raised a rejected joey from great lines, but neutered him at 4 mos to avoid any unforseen problems. It just doesn't seem right to go ahead and breed when you know there's an imperfection. dunno


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1056847
01/18/11 12:40 AM
01/18/11 12:40 AM

L
Lisa_NJG
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Lisa_NJG
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L



Look, I proposed the situation in hopes to shed some light on a few things.. one being that I seem to see a lot of "good breeders" doing this. Im not saying I am going to do it 100%.. Id like to find Jay a mate, but weather its these girls or another, my point was to get information... which I am doing.

I was confused a bit though honestly, if this is such a horrible thing, regardless of what pairing you end up with, why were they bred to start with and continue to be bred by these "Good" breeders. Hearing that they are working towards breeding them out and such .. sorry, doesnt do it for me.. only because there is no known fact that it actually breeds the gene OUT. You might have proven sterile, but are you sure that the gene is gone.. never to show in future unrelated lines again? no. So honestly, I see this more as a do as I say not as I do type thing. (NO offense). Its just how it comes off.

Im not getting defensive, Im just staying how it looks.. like I said, I dont HAVE to breed them, but Id like to know about it. When I think about breeding them, it does bother me quite a bit.. but like I said, I wanted more info.

I in no way want to infect any other line with the gene. Its that simple.. I do however want to understand it all.. and I mean ALL.. as much info as I can get.

This is the same with my WF.. I had just read about the wiggle gene before I got them, and because ONE of them had frodo in their line, I was concerned. SO, I went looking for information. I got the info I needed and I have my babies.

One of my biggest dilemmas with some of these good breeders, is the fact that I have a "100% albino het".. that I would like to pair.. however I have a hard time putting out $3800 for an albino considering I was told that the person who bred her (this big breeder), lied to people and stiffed them on the albino hets. So I have NO clue if she is who she says she is other then getting the word of a breeder that is full of glider pellets. Whats the point if Im getting only hets? Any albino hets I have found thus far are more related to her then the actual albinos, and at least if I got the albino, I would have albino hets from it. Well um, not in much better of a place as I was before though..unless I dish out more to buy either another albino or another albino het.

This by no means is compared to botching up a line due to sterile genes, but well.. again, I just want info. Its good info to know and perhaps info that people who are considering the purchase of a sterile glider should understand.

Ive seen a lot of stuff done on these board, and the same people who did them will be the first to preach and point fingers.. (NO, not any of you..so please dont think I am talking about you).. Im sure most of you know what Im talking about. However, what it does is leave a lot more info to be desired. It may make sense to some, it may not..

Im tired, so at this point, Im not making sense to myself..:P

As I had mentioned before, there are Leus bred throughout that line.. so where was the concern from this breeder? Mo or not.. it was still 100% het. "just mention to the buyer that its from sterile lines".. does nothing since not everyone understands them, or why its bad to breed them.

Did that make sense? LOL..
Time for bed.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057068
01/18/11 01:44 PM
01/18/11 01:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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hwh4ev  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i think because some breeders continue to breed sterile gliders does not make it right.
why bring in grey sterile gliders when grey joeys are hard to find homes for anyway even if they are 100% leu het.
any number of things can go wrong as was brought up.
my thinking- it is already being done that does not make it right.
breeding another sterile line is just bad breeding.

regards,
nancy in detroit
p.s. alot of good breeders are trying to clean up the sterile lines you will make it alot harder if you do this.

Last edited by hwh4ev; 01/18/11 01:47 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057088
01/18/11 02:20 PM
01/18/11 02:20 PM

A
ageber
Unregistered
ageber
Unregistered
A



So my question becomes, if these babies were male and more than likely sterile based on this information, what's the harm there. these could not be bred and therefor not introduce anything into any lines. as purely a pet, they could be put with any female without fear of having babies, saving the glider from being neutered as most breeders who offer gliders for pets as opposed to be bred. This seems almost more humane to me as we are not taking away their ability to reproduce and put them thru a surgical procedure which can impact a healthy glider in a negative way.

I am simply asking the question, not neccessarily saying its right or wrong. just curious as to the thought process since this thread has been about females from a sterile line.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057089
01/18/11 02:21 PM
01/18/11 02:21 PM

A
ageber
Unregistered
ageber
Unregistered
A



So my question becomes, if these babies were male and more than likely sterile based on this information, what's the harm there. these could not be bred and therefor not introduce anything into any lines. as purely a pet, they could be put with any female without fear of having babies, saving the glider from being neutered as most breeders who offer gliders for pets as opposed to be bred. This seems almost more humane to me as we are not taking away their ability to reproduce and put them thru a surgical procedure which can impact a healthy glider in a negative way.

I am simply asking the question, not necessarily saying its right or wrong. just curious as to the thought process since this thread has been about females from a sterile line.

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057095
01/18/11 02:36 PM
01/18/11 02:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: ageber
So my question becomes, if these babies were male and more than likely sterile based on this information, what's the harm there.


But the offspring are not always male...therefore the females could still pass on the sterility gene when bred.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057098
01/18/11 02:37 PM
01/18/11 02:37 PM

A
ageber
Unregistered
ageber
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A



Point well taken and thank you

Re: Sterile breeding [Re: ] #1057099
01/18/11 02:38 PM
01/18/11 02:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
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North Central Ohio
wink


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


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