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Not to bring up a sore subject but.... #1231257
02/22/12 06:28 PM
02/22/12 06:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
Ok so I was thread hopping last night and came across a few for the wiggle syndrome!!! I noticed frodo was mentioned quite a bit and that name seemed familiar . Then it clicked that the new little girl I'm getting has frodo in her lineage! Now I've done the coi's for her and my leu as well as a kinship chart and their a great match!! I've also looked into my leus lineage and frodo is not a part of it! So a few questions I have regarding this!!! Now through all the forums I've read ( and I did read them all thoroughly , it was said there are many possibuilties as to why this happened to the wiggle babies, like inbreeding two from the frodo line or bad inbreeding in general, maybe environmental factors and the like ,it was said that the babies that were wiggle babies may have had some blood work done but then the vets reccomended not to because there was a possibuility they wouldnt survive being under anesthesia!! I can understand that as I wouldn't have wanted to take that risk either!! also that their couldn't be any testing such as a necropsy until the babies past on! So I'm wondering if anything else has come of this since the last postings? I did notice that dimitri and Tegan did pass on , we're there necropsies done when they passed , and if so what were the findings! I am asking because my new little girl has frodo in her line five generations back! I'm not so much worried as he is further back and there is no known ( to me) exact evidence that he is indeed the carrier! I also am not so much worried because her soon to be mate does not have frodo in his line! But I am still a little concerned and want to know as much as I can! I don't know if this will affect me and the breeder didn't mention it so I assume she does not think it will effect me! But the videos I watched we're heartbreaking! So I'd like to know of any new information has come out regarding this ?? I did also find apost bourbon made about a genetic study being done and i did follow the link but theres no place that says what studies have been done and if there have been any findings . Id like to know that as well not even just because of the wiggle babies but whats been found so far at all regarding everything!! I am truly sorry if anything I've asked or said offends or upsets anyone! I do not mean to reopen old wounds as it seemed many tot very uoset when this was discussed ...These are not my intentions at all! I know there are many many descendants from the frodo line that show no signs of this but I'd still like to hear what people that have information on this subject have to say!! Thank you all!


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231274
02/22/12 06:42 PM
02/22/12 06:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
As far as I know... there were less than a handful of babies with these symptoms out of thousands of Fro offspring for multi generations.

Until these babies pass and only when necropsys are performed may there be answers. Even then... we may never know "Why?".

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231279
02/22/12 06:54 PM
02/22/12 06:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
I know and I completely understand that! Its unfortunate that this even happened o those poor little ones But two of the babies dimitri and Tegan did pass on , there was a post here saying they did! So I'm wondering if necropsies where done when they past and if so what the findings were!


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231308
02/22/12 08:26 PM
02/22/12 08:26 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



If you can find the lineage on those wiggle babies (or ask thier owners) you will see that every single one of them was inbred. Like uncle bred to neice etc. So of course they ended up with genetic issues. Imagine if we humans did inbred like that. You could expect the same outcome.
There are thousands of gliders with Frodo lines, so it was probably just dumb luck that it happened to occur within the Frodo lines.
Nobody has been able to show any reason to believe differently. It's all a bunch of BS, usually brought up by people who dislike or have a grudge against the owner of Frodo, in my opinion.
Go look at the lineage of may gliders on The Pet Glider Database and you will see a great number of gliders with those Frodo bloodlines who have no genetic issues at all.
I hope you didn't get the same type of PMs that I got from irresponsible people who just wanted to cause another uproar about the Frodo lines. I strongly urge you to take a look at the lineages for youself rather than listening to anyone who just wants to cause drama.

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231313
02/22/12 08:48 PM
02/22/12 08:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
After reading very thoroughly through all the threads containing any of the wiggle baby information or discussions I did go to the pet gliders database and look into my new little girls lineage, I went to frodo and he does indeed have many descendants . So I'm not really concerned about my little girl being a possible carrier if that's even the case here! But after reading through the threads and seeing that people had said there really wasn't much to do research wise until one of the wiggle babies passed. I then saw another thread that said two of the wiggle babies passed away, so that made me wonder if either of them had a necropsy done and what the results were! So I'm just curious as to wether that happened or not!


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231319
02/22/12 09:10 PM
02/22/12 09:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
S
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave
silverwolf  Offline
Glider Slave
S

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
yes karen you are right and there are people out there like that just look at the blue people their skin is actually blue caused from a genetic disorder that appeared because of inbreeding so yes it does happen you just have to do things as responsibly as possible to avoid those situations.

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231329
02/22/12 09:28 PM
02/22/12 09:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
those wiggle babies all were from close inbreeding. NOT from having Frodo way back in their lineages.

I don't know if necropsies were done or not. I would hope so because it would have helped to determine just WHAT was going on with those babies. That it was neurological is obvious. That they were severely inbred is known. But I for one do not believe it is "Frodo" that caused the issue at all. I also think that without full dna analysis, no one will know for sure anyway and full dna analysis is EXTREMELY expensive.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231333
02/22/12 09:39 PM
02/22/12 09:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
Silverwolf... I actually read about the family ( blue people from troublesome creek. The inbreeding and genetics caused a ressesive trait and blood disorder called methemoglobinemia!! Not to get off topic!!!

Dancing... I tried to pm kitsune cause she's one of the people that had wiggle babies, her babies sadly passed away! But I was going to ask her privately if she had a necropsy done but was unable to because her pm's were over her limit . So maybe she will see this and let us know if she had them done and if so what the results were!


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231358
02/22/12 10:34 PM
02/22/12 10:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
In my opinion, the wiggle baby syndrome was strictly a result of close inbreeding that just happens to have Frodo in the lineage.

I do NOT believe that there are any genetic issues with the Frodo line. If there were, we would be seeing an epidemic of wiggle babies. But we haven't.

Again, IMO - we know it was neurological issues from inbreeding. I'm not sure anyone is/did do any necrospies to find a known answer.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231359
02/22/12 10:35 PM
02/22/12 10:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
smc629 Offline
Glider Lover
smc629  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
Ok this is the dumbest question in the world what is a wiggle baby and what are the symptoms? dunno


~*Stephanie*~
jump Wife to a wonderful husband(Danny)jump
cloud9 Mom to the most adorable baby(Alexis)cloud9
3 dogs= Penny,Ruby,Tank
4 fuzzbutts
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231366
02/22/12 10:55 PM
02/22/12 10:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
Smc629.... It's better to read through these threads then to try and explain a " wiggle baby".... But make sure you read through all the pages of each thread so you don't miss anything.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...igg#Post1198608

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...red#Post1009480


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231376
02/22/12 11:19 PM
02/22/12 11:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
My opinion is the "wiggle" babies is the glider equal of cerebal palsy in humans. (closest I can describe it) Where the glider doesn't have control over their muscles and shakes and wiggles.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231457
02/23/12 03:02 AM
02/23/12 03:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
Sweetbabies,

Anesthesia was not a problem when Dimitri was neutered at 4 months old. He got through his neuter easily with no ecollar, as well. My vet originally diagnosed Dimitri with cerebral palsy, but since this is not a genetic disorder the vet rescinded his diagnosis and was unable to give a true one. He told me he was sure it was not environmental, especially since Tegan and Dimitri were concieved, carried, and born in a different house than their younger sister Whisper, who also had the condition. Whisper's twin sister was healthy, also, further pointing toward a genetic condition. Beatrice was bred one more time to an unrelated lion male named Bobo and produced two healthy baby boys, but 3 of the 4 joeys produced with Dante were wiggle babies. Dimitri and Tegan were seen by at least 5 different vets, and not one was able to give me a solid diagnosis.

Unfortunately Whisper passed unexpectedly when she was around 2 years old. She was sent for a necropsy but I chose the wrong vet, and for lack of a healthy glider's body and brain to compare to, I was not able to get any answers. Even more unfortunately, after Dimitri and Tegan became so advanced in this condition that they could no longer clean themselves or eat properly and had to be euthanized, I was so distraught that I did not see my cousin put their bodies in the freezer until it was too late. This was doubly devastating to me...the last chance I had to finally find out the nature of their condition really was is gone. They were laid to rest in my grandparents' back yard.

From what information has been collected over the years, there is every reason to believe that this condition is genetic, however there is no way to trim the possible carriers from our bloodlines. If action had been taken in the beginning it would have been simple, but there is no way now--Frodo is everywhere in the lines. Like was mentioned earlier, all cases have been linked to close inbreeding--almost always half uncle to half niece, or cousins--but while some people feel it can only be expressed when gliders are inbred, I don't feel that's the case. I believe it's a recessive similar to leu. BUT, that is a great way to figure out what the likelihood is of the gene still showing up in your lines or pairs. For a few years I bred Tie Dye to Lucy (you can see their son Loken for their full lineage). They were both Frodo line, but there were no issues. As long as people are made aware of the known carriers and potential carriers, people will be able to pair repsonsibly and hopefully avoid replicating the condition again.

If only one glider in the pairing you are looking at is Frodo line, the chance of producing a wiggle joey is miniscule. Even if you pair two Frodo line gliders together, the further from the last identified carrier you go the less likely you are to encounter the gene. Think of it like the leu gene--pretend Frodo is a leu het. What is the likelihood that your glider would be a leu het if you count back through the generations? Not high, I'll bet. The gene HAS proven to pass without losing its potency over 7 generations or more, the most recent proven carrier being Gilthanas, but as long as you're not pairing a Gil joey to an early line Frodo joey you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Of course, like I said, many believe that this gene only comes when inbreeding is present, but I don't see how erring on the side of caution could be a bad thing. Even considering the gene as easily replicatable as the leu gene, the chances of reproducing it in a responsible pairing is very, very small.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231458
02/23/12 03:17 AM
02/23/12 03:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
I also wanted to mention that in every pairing a wiggle has been born to, the ratio of wiggles to non-wiggles has been very large. It was 3 in 4 to Beatrice and Dante, 3 in 3 to Kitty and Smidgin, and the other pairings I remember hearing about produced only one joey or one pair and all were afflicted. It seems that if a pair does have the required genes to reproduce the condition, it will not hide. Even with my tendency to err on the side of caution with this particular gene, I am comfortable saying that if a pairing does not produce a wiggle in the first four joeys, the condition will not express in any of their joeys.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231471
02/23/12 07:21 AM
02/23/12 07:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
smc629 Offline
Glider Lover
smc629  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
Awww thats so sad!!! Thank you for the links sweetbabies!


~*Stephanie*~
jump Wife to a wonderful husband(Danny)jump
cloud9 Mom to the most adorable baby(Alexis)cloud9
3 dogs= Penny,Ruby,Tank
4 fuzzbutts
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231521
02/23/12 10:35 AM
02/23/12 10:35 AM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



Beth,
if I understand you correctly, you are saying that only the inbred gliders were wiggle babies. When you bred Beatrice to an urelated glider, no wiggle babies were produced. Is that right?
So in my opinion, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water and blame the Frodo line. Just because they had Frodo lines in common, does not prove anything at all about the Frodo lines. I mean, all of those gliders drank water and breathed air too, but we don't blame the water or air for producing wiggle babies.
Unfortunately that's just the way genetics work. When two creatures with very close genetics are bred to each other, there is often a negative result. That's why we don't marry our own brothers, cousins, uncles, etc. Plus it would just be really gross to be married to someone we are related to!

No offense is intended toward Beth or anyone else with wiggle babies. Mistakes were made and noboidy should be pointing fingers at the owners/breeder of the wiggle babies. That would be just as wrong as blaming the owner/breeder of Frodo.
I have no idea if Beth has the lineage of her wiggle babies available, but if so, please look at them for yourself so you can see that they were too closely related to be a good breeding pair.

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231544
02/23/12 11:04 AM
02/23/12 11:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
yea, reading all this and the other info over the years since "Wiggle" joeys started appearing, the thing I see in common is close inbreeding. I think placing the blame on the "Frodo" like is a way to distract from the real issue...close inbreeding.

"Wiggle" isn't the only risk with close inbreeding. There is the sterility issue with the mosaics. Polydactyls too. There are so many potential things that can go wrong. But pairing up uncle and niece (or siblings or parent/child, cousins etc.) and seeing genetic problems can not be blamed on the founder of the line 5-6 generations back.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231563
02/23/12 11:22 AM
02/23/12 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
S
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave
silverwolf  Offline
Glider Slave
S

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
I agree dancing but I also sometimes wonder with all the hets that are being produces especially when you start getting into the double hets nd triple hets if maybe there is not going to be something else rear its ugly head I have noticed that there are alot of babies now being produced that are double and triple hets and I think if we are not careful there could be an issue

Last edited by silverwolf; 02/23/12 11:24 AM.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231578
02/23/12 11:36 AM
02/23/12 11:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
I don't think the "hets" are at any more risk of genetic issues than other gliders.

A leu born from a leu and a het parent is HET for GREY! They carry the grey gene. But we never call them Leu/100% grey hets.

It isn't fair to say that "colors" or "hets" are at more risk EXCEPT when looking at close inbreeding that caused these "colors" to begin with. "Colors are a genetic variation, not a genetic mutation just as with blonde hair or brown hair on humans. It is how the genes line up on the alleles, not the genes mutating into something other than original form. The "wiggle" and the "sterility" are from genetic damage.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: Dancing] #1231615
02/23/12 12:40 PM
02/23/12 12:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
:agreed: with Sherri & Dancing.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231659
02/23/12 02:34 PM
02/23/12 02:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline OP
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
Thank you everyone for your responses blush

Kitsune.. Thank you for replying as well! It's terribly sad what happened with the babies and I can't even begin to understand what both they and you went through, I'm sorry!

I have looked up through the lineage and I've read through everything I could find. I am not worried that my pairing could possibly produce a wiggle baby in any way because they are not closely related at all and if the het % wiggle gene were true then only one of them would carry it and it would be minuscule . So I believe I do not have any reason to worry! The reason I brought this up was because I came across several threads that discussed it and when I saw the name " frodo" it rang a bell , because " frodo" is in my new little girls lineage! BUT hes further back and again, my new pair is not related in that way!! There was nothing I could find stating if any more information had come forward especially after a couple of the " wiggle babies" passed on!

This is terribly sad that it happened at all. So hopefully even the small information that is out there regarding this will help to prevent it from happening again!

Again!! Thank you everyone that responded!!


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231672
02/23/12 03:11 PM
02/23/12 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
People have accidentally or intentionally inbred gliders many many times over the years.

However, ONLY the inbreeding of Frodo-line gliders has produced wiggle babies.

While there is no denying that in-breeding is the primary fault, it is in-breeding specifically Fro-lines that produces this defect. In-breeding other lines produces other defects, I'm sure.

When talking about the problems with in-breeding, wiggle babies should certainly be mentioned. However, there are many other problems caused by poor breeding practices. In-breeding Fro-line gliders produces *this* problem.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231721
02/23/12 05:26 PM
02/23/12 05:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Alden, I agree.

So what I take from this is IF you have two gliders that are closely related and they are from the Fro line, there is the risk of Wiggle. I can see that.

If you have two gliders that are closely related from other lines you could come up with polydactyls or some other genetic defect.

Some of these defects (such as wiggle) are lethal or very severely damaging to the glider. Others not as much (as far as we know) such as the poly's or the sterility. Different levels of severity depending on just what the inbred damage is.

But obviously if we are talking about "inbreeding" then we are looking at one specific line or another. (or it wouldn't be inbreeding) and it is good to know that of the KNOWN genetic defects, the most lethal so far is the Wiggle within the Frodo line.

Seems pretty simple to me...don't closely inbreed. The harder part is to determine exactly what "closely inbred" means. I mean, technically 3rd cousins once removed is still inbreeding but is it "close inbreeding"? Perhaps that is yet another topic that needs it's own thread.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231806
02/23/12 09:52 PM
02/23/12 09:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
Karen--I did not ever own Beatrice or Dante. If it had been up to me, I would have retired her--in fact, I fought to take her to ensure that she would not be bred again, and I was not able to bring her home. I kept tabs on her in her new home after she was sold, but the girl that had her bred her once and then supposedly neutered Bobo and rehomed the pair as non-breeding, although I very much doubt she did so, because she was not a very honest person.

Frodo is the first common ancestor in Dimitri and Tegan's ancestry. Unless the wiggle gene came from two different sources, which is unlikely since there were no other wiggles produced with Frodo and Lily or Noel, and there were none produced by Boogie and Alex, it has to have come from Frodo alone. Boogie is from Frodo and Noel, and Dante is from Frodo and Lily, so the two were only related by Frodo. Boogie is the mother of Beatrice. If you really put some thought into it, Frodo is the only possible source for the gene.



Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231814
02/23/12 10:01 PM
02/23/12 10:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
I haven't traced the lineage on any of these gliders. Are all the wiggle babies decedents of Frodo and Lily?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231816
02/23/12 10:04 PM
02/23/12 10:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
They are descendants of Frodo, but not always Lily. Gliders that trace back to Frodo/Noel have also proven to carry the gene. Frodo and Lily were half niece/half uncle but never produced a wiggle baby, so I really doubt that Lily carried the gene. Behind Frodo, I believe the gene came from one of Cereal's many mates. If Cereal himself had carried the gene, I think it would have been a great deal more widespread.

There was another pair that I was told produced the wiggle gene, one of the parents was Frodo line and the other was not related to Frodo. The parents were unrelated. The wiggle joey was supposedly sold to someone in Florida, but I was never able to track it down. I worked with the new owner of the pair to track down lineage on the male, which she had recieved verbally at the time she picked them up, but we were never able to find the male in the databases. I believe that this did happen, but I was never able to find proof.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231821
02/23/12 10:18 PM
02/23/12 10:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
smc629 Offline
Glider Lover
smc629  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
Ok here is a question that I don't want to offend anyone on but if you had a joey born a wiggle baby would his quality of life still be good to keep alive or would you put the joey down for having this genetic flaw because the quality of life would be to difficult with the muscles freaking out and causing him to shake/wiggle all the time? frown


~*Stephanie*~
jump Wife to a wonderful husband(Danny)jump
cloud9 Mom to the most adorable baby(Alexis)cloud9
3 dogs= Penny,Ruby,Tank
4 fuzzbutts
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231823
02/23/12 10:24 PM
02/23/12 10:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
My Dimitri and Tegan were functioning, healthy gliders except for the symptoms of the condition. They wiggled all the time, could not be still, they ran in circles, couldn't jump or glide because their equilibrium told them to turn upside down. They were otherwise very normal, though. They ate well, played on the toys they could reach without jumping, they loved mealies, they had a very obvious bond to me. Their quality of life was good, they were not in pain and rarely needed to visit the vet. For a short time when Tegan was around a year old, she had severe seizures, but they stopped after a few weeks and we were unable to determine why they popped up.

One of the things that makes me very sad is that I was unable to introduce my two little ones to many people. No one I know in the community now was ever able to meet them. They were so very special to me, so full of character and love. Dimitri raised no fewer than 10 rejected joeys for me, kept them warm, clean, pottied, everything but the feeding. He was the best little mama.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject but.... [Re: sweetbabies] #1231828
02/23/12 10:46 PM
02/23/12 10:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
smc629 Offline
Glider Lover
smc629  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 371
Florida
Awww frown That's so sweet he was a momma. I mean my heart just tells me everything has a life and try to save them. It is hard for me to say it's the end, but when the time comes it comes. I was just wondering from someone with experience who had gliders that wiggled how the quality of life was and that there was no pain. I'm sorry for your loss beth!


~*Stephanie*~
jump Wife to a wonderful husband(Danny)jump
cloud9 Mom to the most adorable baby(Alexis)cloud9
3 dogs= Penny,Ruby,Tank
4 fuzzbutts

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