Not so good news from the vet: Ollie will be losing at least one more tooth. I noticed something was off w/her...couldn't put my finger on it, but felt it was the perio flaring up again. Dr. S confirmed it. She's got another infection. He'll be doing surgery on Wednesday to remove at least the one tooth and he'll take a look around at the rest of her mouth. We're starting antibiotics tonight. He still feels that the initial perio infection was so severe that it caused the lower jaw to fracture. I'm hoping to get some pics of the surgery and extracted tooth. Keep her in your thoughts because she's over 11 years old and this will be tough on her (and my nerves!) I'll let you know how it turns out.

Poor baby. She'll be in my prayers. You may want to get several varieties of baby food to tempt her with during her recovery. Also after Sass had surgery to remove his teeth he needed pain injections, antibiotic injections and sub-Q fluids daily for 4-5 days to help him get over the worst of it. The oral stuff just wasn't cutting it, so keep that in mind with her. Also, the daily flushing with oral antibiotic rinse helped Nicky heal faster when he had his front incisors removed.

I'm sorry to hear your little one is needing surgery. I hope she will be ok. It's good that she lets you check her so you can get an early detection of the problem. She must be very bonded to you. We will keep her in our prayers. Glider hugs and kisses to her, and her glider mom.

thefotokat, Im sorry to hear that your baby has to go threw this. I have been questioning and wondering the why and what to do's with periodontal problems on WSGN. I know it may be caused by poor diet but what else. Medications?
Mom's milk not having enough calcium?
I would be very interested as to any insight you can share or anyone , photos would be great.

Lack of use causes periodontal issues! Soft sugary diets are not good for teeth, we all know that exercise is important to our suggies because it improves the absorption of calcium to make bones strong, so surely it stands to reason that teeth need to be used in order to make them strong. As the gliders angel has already said they get live branches to chew on in Australia which keep the teeth and gums strong and healthy.

Imagine you eat a diet of coca cola (not diet or sugar free) and doughnuts and don't brush your teeth - what's going to happen to them? The honey in the diets in the US contain loads of honey, honey is 75% - 95% sugar.

With Sassy & his son Nicky, I believe the cause was genetics. They had a well balanced diet and plenty of fresh branches to chew on if they wanted to and it still developed.

Ok so what your saying is they chew the branches and not just remove the bark to get to the sap in their natural habitat. I have branches and they do not chew them. And your saying that they should not be givin the well know "proven" diets out there names unmentioned (mine do not eat)because they are 75%-95% honey. The hard bodied bugs we feed is not enough to clean the teeth.
I do understand you need to have your gliders teeth cleaned at least once a year, but I an not willing to have them put under general anistesia to do this. That is why I am asking the same question. What do we do to prevent it, and what is the treatment if they have it.

glidrz5, thank you at least that is something to go on and reserch. I unfortunatly will never know about their parents.

I felt the same way, Kora. My guys get plenty of things to chew, as evidenced with my impending need to eventually replace my wooden perches. They also get bugs (mealies and grasshoppers), which you can hear crunch, and is even stated in the BML diet as not being essential to the diet itself, but important for cleaning teeth. They also get euc chew stick, and whenever they get them, they go to town "brushing" their teeth with them.
Honey is only one component of the BML, so overall, I don't consider the diet to be overly sugary (or for those who have tasted it, I've smelled it and it doesn't smell like it would be that sweet).
I know my guys are young, so I'm not the expert on this, and they haven't been to the vet much yet, but the vet told me that their teeth looked great. I'm sure others who have had gliders longer, with exponentially more vet checks than mine, will have the same remarks with a similar diet.
The underlying causes in a lot of the ones on this thread appear to be possibly genetics, abcesses and jaw injury, and unknown (I wasn't sure if some of these gliders were rescued or rehomed) which could have a multitude of reasons, including poor diet. Also, consider that these are potentially older gliders. It may just be inherent--gliders generally don't live that long in the wild. Older animals (and people) lose their teeth-it happens.

And thephotokat--good luck with Ollie. I'm always excited to see gliders reaching the double digits, and I hope everything goes well with her surgery.

Most gliders do not need to have their teeth cleaned by the vet, their diet should take care of it. The only time they should need to be cheaned is if there is a problem. Nicky would go in to get his cleaned/checked every month because he tended to get food caught between his teeth & this irritated his gums, which caused them to become inflamed which made the teeth worse. It was a continual circle that just kept getting worse until he had to have his teeth removed.

However, you should have your vet check your gliders teeth/gums during your yearly wellness check just to make sure that everything is OK.

I've never heard this tidbit about needing to have yearly dentals Is there a place that has this information? I know my pom has to have yearly dentals and I always worry about anethesia, and he's 4 pounds, so I'd be even more worried about having it done to the gliders!

Becki, don't worry, they don't need dental cleanings. Just have your vet look at their teeth/gums during your yearly wellness check to make sure that everything is OK. Mine needed cleaning because they had problems and the boys were not put under anestetic. My vet basically just looked at the teeth & cleaned any obvious food build up from between the teeth while they were awake & crabbing. All that was really needed was a shot of Torb after and a shot of antibiotics to be on the safe side.

Thanks Chris I'm a worry wart @ times

Chris, I'm so glad you posted to clear up that "yearly dental cleaning" thing. I've had gliders 9 years (more or less) and never had ANY dental problems and never had any have their teeth cleaned.

Ok I found the artical that claims Regular dental cleanings and oral examinations are required to help prevent this condition. I can not add the link or author's name as I do not have permission to do so.
When I asked my vet on the cleanings he stated they have to be put to sleep to do this and is recommended at least once a year.

Another question. Do they get cavities?
Or do they just rott form the root?

I agree they need to have dental exams when they have their wellness checks, but I would never subject my gliders to a dental cleaning under anesthesia, especially since it doesn't seem to be neccessary to have yearly cleanings done...

Here's one link I found where they recommend the yearly cleanings. Again, I don't personally think it's worth the risk unless you have a glider with dental problems...

I've not had a glider with teeth problems, so I can't tell you if they get cavities or their teeth rot, sorry

I've done dentals on dogs and cats (filled in at a vet while one of the techs was out) and they build up tartar just like humans. A professional dental cleaning is needed to remove that. From my experience w/Ollie's problems, no tartar is visible above the gum and there was none present on the last teeth extracted. Genetics does play a big role in perio disease...both animal and human. The bacteria that cause it can also be transmitted. I am Ollie's 3rd home (that I know of). She was never fed a proper diet prior to coming to me (again, that I know of) and she was at least 9 years old when we found each other. In humans, many abcesses are not able to be diagnosed w/out radiographs. Unless the person is complaining of pain, they can go unnoticed. Gliders can't tell us what's wrong...and it was when I noticed a change in her eating habits and the fistula that the diagnosis was made. The abcess began to erode the bone and until it did as much damage as it did, neither my vet nor I found it. Radiographs are not a standard part of a well visit. The initial infection was so severe that we believe her lower jaw was broken and this has caused more complications and a chronic instability of the jaw. Hopefully, we will be able to find other ways to diagnose it earlier, but for now, a keen eye and knowledge of your glider's behaviour is your best bet. My vet will try to get some good pics tomorrow and I'll post any that will be informative. Like Becki said, the risks of general anesthesia outweigh the possible benefits of professional cleanings, and even after going through this I wouldn't recommend it.

That is exactly what I was saying, and pointing out. It is recommended, but I will not put my gliders under anesthesia again unless it is absolutely necessary. Thank you all for your input. I feel I need to continue my reserch and find more answers.
One more question please. If it is food will it look like food or will it turn black? How do you remove it?
Thanks again

Kate, one of mine had to have a tooth pulled, Lyah (I'll try and remember to post the pics I took of the tooth when I get home-we had to take the pic of the removed molar through a magnifying glass to make it visible enough to see. The tooth itself was perfect-no issues with any other teeth, no tartar, no discolorations, no nothing. The infection that loosened it may have started in the gums (say something hard got wedged between the tooth and gum), and went into her sinus...the rest of her teeth and gums look awesome. All of my gliders with mealies seem to get perfect scores on teeth-except for the abrupt facial swelling, we likely wouldn't have known there was a problem. She did go under anesthesia so the vet could check all her teeth when she had to pull the loose one-but that looseness could have been caused by the infection as well, since nothing was wrong with the tooth itself (I have had 7 molars pulled, 3 broken at time of extraction, and know what infection in the jaw can do). None of these sound as if decay is the issue.

I know with my boys that decay didn't seem to be the problem either. The problem with them was in their gums rather than in their teeth. Their gums, just like other humans/animals with gum disease, would become very red & inflamed. There didn't seem to be any facial swelling with my kids, unlike with Jens. I don't really know why that was, but with my boys the first indidcation that there was a problem was sneezing. As a matter of fact we thought that Sassy had a cold initially. It was only when it wouldn't clear up that we looked further for a less obvious cause.

OK, just picked Ollie up from the vet. He had to extract 3 teeth due to gum infection. The teeth themselves had no problems. There is a hole in the anterior part of her jaw...the area where the initial fistula was, but Dr. S was worried about stress on her at that point and felt it was better to leave alone for now. He said it can be closed, but we'll keep an eye on her for now. We'll be continuing w/antibiotics for the next week. Daily irrigation and mouth checks will be even more essential now that she's lost more teeth. She came through the surgery like a champ, and is now curled up inside my shirt w/her sister. I have pics the vet took that I'll try to post later tonight when I get home. Thanks to everyone who sent warm thoughts our way!

Bless her little heart. Kate, seeing the great care you are giving to Ollie really reassures my heart and mind about Jasper and Daisy. Even if they only get half the care and love, they are going to be so spoiled indeed.

Prayers for her speedy recovery and hopes that this will be the end of her problems.

T, it means so much to me that you and B entrusted these two beautiful little sweeties to me! They are definitely spoiled!

No actually that's not what I'm saying, they gouge holes in branches and strip bark. What hard bodied bugs do you feed? Mealworms aren't exactly hard bodied are they? They don't have to crack a shell like they would beetles do they? The back teeth are designed for compacting and crunching through shells so they can then take out the soft nutritious body and discard the rest.

I don't feed the Leadbeater modifications - any of them I've had only bad experiences with them (I've tried 3 of them!), and I've never had to have my suggies teeth cleaned! I've never had any periodontal issues at all, I have over 30 gliders and I've kept them for 5 years, the oldest is almost 10 now (she was an adult when she came to us) and still no dental issues what so ever. I'm not saying the Leadbeater mods are 75-95% honey, but that honey is 75-95% sugar which isn't good for teeth. Also the lack of having anything to chew (not just strip) could add to the weakening of the teeth and gums. Also lets not forget the acid in the fruit we feed also plays a part in stripping the enamel off teeth.

I'm no scientist or vet, but because father and son both have issues doesn't necessarily mean it's genetic especially if they are both being fed the same diet. Genetics may have a part to play but I don't think it's the whole problem.

There are a lot of things that can affect tooth and gum health, including bad diet, lack of nutrients, genetic predisposition, bad diet in the parents, etc., etc.. I've had ONE glider who had to have a tooth pulled-major infection. You wouldn't know it to look at her mouth-the only clue was that when the vet checked all the teeth after her face swelled and she started making strange noises, was that one was loose. When she took the tooth (which was fine by all appearances), the amount of pus that began to drain from the socket-in my vet's words-"was an incredible amount". The teeth were clean, the gums 'looked' healthy. This glider came to me at between 1 and 2 years of age and had been fed glider grub (and stank to high heaven until BML and clean surroundings for about a month). For some reason every rescue I've had on that stuff stinks horribly. None of the other 25 have ever had a tooth issue-their teeth are clean and free of any buildup at every vet check, as were Lyah's (the one with the pulled molar), gums pink and healthy looking, and all teeth but that one in good condition. I don't feed hard foods (canned crickets are as hard as they get-or yogurt drops, sometimes SOFT dried fruit) because I've had to deal with jaw/face infections, that stopped when items like nuts, cheerios, etc, were taken away. My guys have branches in their cages...and ignore them (except Teal'c, who chews on ANYTHING, be it fabric, plastic, wood, or anything else-he's ruined more pouches than I can count, but when he tried to eat thru a nestbox, I figured fabric was less risky than wood or plastic in his gut. Veggies also contain natural sugars (especially corn)-though most people don't realize it. The starches are converted into sugars in the body. Sap (the wild diet) is a sugar-which is where the name came from..."sugar" glider.

Because of unethical breeders, lack of information, megabreeders (where you can't EVER be sure the parents either got the proper nutrition, or the joeys are unrelated (think buying from pet stores, gun/home shows, fairs, flea markets, and so on)...these issues will happen. I honestly don't think the diets contribute significantly. How to deal with these issues when they come up, recognize when there is a problem, IS something we can control, though-which is why this topic is here.

In the UK, dental problems are very rarely an issue, I know of many suggie owners (because I'm the only person in the UK selling suggies supplies they all come to me!) and I've heard of one issue. And that person (I can't even remember who it was) feeds a leadbeater mod. Even the rescue suggies I've had including severe nutritional problems (REALLY bad HLP) have no tooth issues at all.

What the heck is glider grub? I presume it's a 'complete' pelleted diet?? It really concerns me when I see posts saying you mustn't feed beetles (for example) because it'll scratch the roof of the mouth and cause infections (I read it on this board!!). How do they cope in the wild? Hard food isn't the problem - it's what is causing the cavities, infections or whatever, the hard food only irritates it. Look at all the posts on 'lumpy jaw' most of the gliders that suffer this are on a Leadbeater mod of one description or another (I'm NOT bashing!) and that's mainly because it's so ingrained that you must NOT feed hard food, so then either these gliders are suffering nutritional shortages from the diet or their teeth are being rotted from the sugar in the mix and the sugar and acid in the fruit.

Yes recognition and knowing how to deal with it is very important, and it's good that it's being addressed, but surely that's just papering over the cracks? The reason gliders are suffering these issues needs to be identified and rectified and I don't think you should rule out the diet issue just yet ...

I'm not sure what all is in the glider grub, but it looks and smells like repackaged dog food, and gliders that come to me on it stink like crazy. I'm not ruling out diet entirely, but I don't think it's the main issue, either. I'm all for feeding bugs-mine get them, fresh, canned, and freeze dried-but they don't get hard cereals or nuts anymore. $3,000 worth of vet bills was enough (for ONE glider). I don't think it's the staple, but the extras that will make the difference. The leadbeaters gets their vits/minerals down them, and they have to go down somehow. But a dry food they can't suck anything out of I don't feel has any value whatsoever, including pellets, glider grub, etc.-it's not something they'd eat in the wild. They don't eat tree bark, just scrape it away for the sap. Leadbeater's, consistency wise, is similar to that sap.

Tree bark has been found in the feces of wild gliders, so although they don't mean to eat the bark it does go down. They don't eat hard pellets in the wild but they don't eat bml and fruit either do they? It is of similar consistency to sap yes but the nutritional value is completely different. It has also been mentioned in other posts a number of times about Leadbeater mods containing too many vits and calcium - could this also lead to a weakness too? Too much is after all as bad as not enough.

You'd be amazed at what they can suck out of dried food - I know I use a certain kind (not discussing it on THIS board though!) they do exactly the same as they would fruit, chew it, roll it around a bit and then spit out the 'husk'. I'm not saying a diet that is solely dry food is good - I'm certainly not saying that at all, personally I wouldn't feed a dry 'complete' diet to my suggies because I think they need variety, but I don't think a small amount of hard food is a problem for gliders with healthy teeth - obviously it would irritate if the suggie already has cavities.

$3000 is certainly alot of money!! And I understand that you've obviously learnt by your bad experience, and I have too which is why I won't use Leadbeaters mods or original.

I honestly don't know what the peridontal problems that my gliders suffered is caused by. With Sassy, I first thought that it was caused from a lack of proper nutrition when he was young. Perhaps he had not gotten enough calcium in his diet or something on that order. Then when his son developed the same problem my vet began to think that it was a possible genetic issue since none of my other gliders had dental problems and were on the same diet as Sassy & Nicky. Unfortunately, we will probably never know if this was the case since Sassy has passed away as has Nicky's other sibling Toby, and Nicky himself is neutered.

As to diet, I do not believe that this was the cause, as I said before I had multiple gliders on the same diet and only 2 of them developed the peridontal issues. I am also not going to get in a debate on diets in this thread. This thread is to inform others of the ways I recognized the problem & what we (my vet & I) have done as a result of it.

I think that with this condition, as with many geriatric conditions of suggies, it is difficult to use behaviour in the wild as a model, since suggies in the wild do not live long enough to develop these problems.

Lumpy jaw is a condition that occurs in animals with gums that retract and extend over the teeth, trapping food below the gum line that can then decay and cause an abscess. Suggies do not have this type of retracting/extending gum. I am more and more seeing the term 'lumpy jaw' used to describe most any abscess on the suggies face. I find it confusing to use the same term for two such diverse conditions.

It has been noted that one of the first signs of periodontal disease has been sneezing. That makes sense as the roots of the teeth are in close proximity to the sinus cavities in the head. A sinus infection creates swelling in the area that presses on the roots to the teeth. The opposite is also true.

I wonder if periodontal disease can be precipitated by sinus issues in suggies?

In humans, degerative jaw disease (bone loss) has many causes, including hormonal changes due to aging. These changes alter calcium metabolism in the body, among other things. It seems significant that this problem seems to occur in older suggies, that are past their breeding prime...menopausal so to speak.

One would therefore have to wonder about the effect of surgically induced male menopause (neutering) on the development of the condition. I would have to wonder what percentage of neutered males develop periodontal disease compared to the percentage of intact males that develop the condition.

While diet certainly may play a role in this condition, it seems that there is too little data available at this time to draw any conclusion as to cause. IMHO

There are many avenues to explore.