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self mutalition #20640
05/12/04 04:41 AM
05/12/04 04:41 AM

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i'm gliders slaves husband. we rescued a male and when we recived him i noticed he had patchy hair on his head. the last owners said that they thought it was part of his bald spot. well after 2 days of having him we discovered he was a self mutalator. he is now e-collard and disgruntle.

my question is any one who has or knows a self mutalator, what were the liveing conditions, diet, treats, water, cage size, toys, wheel, dog, cat. every thing i want to find out what makes this happen.

thank you for your help.

robert <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20641
05/12/04 11:49 AM
05/12/04 11:49 AM

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Here is a link to a site about sm's, it has a bit of info contained in it that may be able to answer some of your questions. There hasn't been any pinpointed reasoning behind why they do this, studies are still being done about it to find out as much as possible in order to effect a cure for them.... Self-Mutilators Good luck in your studies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20642
05/12/04 12:36 PM
05/12/04 12:36 PM

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There is also another board called Info Tree that has a whole section on self mutilation with Bourbon as one of the Moderators. If you just scroll down it is about the 6th bar down and is titled Self Mutilation. You can't miss it. Hope this helps. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20643
05/12/04 12:50 PM
05/12/04 12:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,120
LittleRock, AR USA
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[:"blue"] I personally have not heard of a self mutilator which did not include "chewing" on itself which would not be possible on the top of the head.

Is this in fact where you believe the mutilation is taking place? [/]


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Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20644
05/12/04 01:20 PM
05/12/04 01:20 PM

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I had a male that was a self mutilator in the cloacal region. Send a PM if you would like to know all the details. Like Karen said self mutilation on the head doesn't seem as likely as possibly overgrooming. I currently have a female that overgrooms on her head. I can forward a picture if that would help explain. The overgrooming is due to stress. She is 8 years old and had a rough life up until about a year ago. She has came a long way, but still overgrooms. It will get to a point where all the fur grows is almost grown in and overnight she will groom it away.

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20645
05/12/04 02:11 PM
05/12/04 02:11 PM

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not chewing his head...he is pulling hair out of his head possibly to cause that, but he is self mutilating his coloacal area and this has been proven by mary and bourbon by many hours on the phone and watching him do it. he is also scratching at his chest... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

here is him in his e collar, he is not a happy glider

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225625-HPIM1264.JPG (65 downloads)
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20646
05/12/04 04:45 PM
05/12/04 04:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,120
LittleRock, AR USA
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[:"blue"]Okay, gotcha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> Poor little guy definitely looks like he isn't happy with that e-collar, does he? It's like ... hey, somebody help me get this off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to move this to Health & Hygiene for you. [/]


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Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20647
05/12/04 10:47 PM
05/12/04 10:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Robert, my Cmdr Riker was/is a mutlilator. He will always be high risk. He's one of the few who has been out of a collar, and has been since June 06, 2003. Since so much info can be involved in your questions, I'll PM you my phone #, if that's okay. I'll also attach a pic with Riker in his collar, and they look absolutely miserable, don't they?

Attached Files
225733-RikerCollar.jpg (47 downloads)

Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20648
05/13/04 02:10 AM
05/13/04 02:10 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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please refer to the following thread

What should I do?

Jen that is the cutest pic i seen of a glider in a collar..

Robert, the people I refer Carol to, to speak with is now all in contact.

Bindy, had the mutilator Spike, Spike had done ememnse amounts of damage, his story is on the sm section of the tree.

X-file Fane has Riker also a mutilator, as she said he is close to his 1 year anniversy without his collar,I am hoping Jen gets his story done on the tree for all to read. He will always be a high risk glider, therefore always refered to as a mutilator.
Ahe is the one I said was placing her hand between his teeth and the cloacal area to protect him, the collar made life so much easier.

You spoke with Mary about Bo and monkey, and she just got another one in, also with damage done, not as bad as monkey, but damaged anyway.

I had Casper, also an sm,

Tom Havens has Ollie, although not in a collar, if anyone else had him I would highly suggest the collar, without tom's 24/7 care, olllie could very easy do extensive damage.

as for the hair loss on the top of the head, Karen, Tom and I was speaking about this, and although Bandit (Also an SM who is now in my care,) hasn't done any damage to the cloacal area, he has extensive hairloss on both the base of his tail as well as on his head. Tom and I was speaking about this, and this doesn't seem to be that uncommon, we believe that they could be pulling the hair out ,of the head area to keep from biting the cloacal area, this is speculation but still possible, the sounds separates the diet and stress related hairloss, from the sm's.

Robert, on the sm site on the tree is a picture of an SM cage, where is is modified for the sm's. tyo make life a bit more normal for them, however the first month of adjustment is always the toughest, much like a human who has to live a modified life after years of normacy. They hate the collar, this we know.

Also it is imparative that he gets to the vet and gets the necessary tests run as well as get him started on the ivermectin treatments. Most vets will work with the owners, we do have vets that will consult, but Mary said she directed Carol to Dr. Maxwell as well as Dr Sue. Dr Sue is more expensive, but she is willing to consult, free of charge for the sm's.


The collar is the first step in saving his life. But it is only one of many steps that need to be addressed.

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20649
05/13/04 02:34 AM
05/13/04 02:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,730
Florida
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Florida
Hello Bourbon...

i was on the phone with mary last night, your line was busy...i called my vet, and they do not work with anyone on payments, all $$ is due at time of treatment. so...im going to look for another glider vet in my area, if anyone knows of a GREAT glider vet or who is willing to learn in FOrt Worth or close, please let me know.


Carol <3 Brett
Heidi Rose~*~daughter
Anthony~ Son
Kayson~(son on the way!)
~BATMAN***glider
~~Kalli* pitbull
~Vanilla Bean *Kallis daughter a Dogo Argentino pitbull mix
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20650
05/13/04 02:45 AM
05/13/04 02:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
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Florida
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here is another shot of him with his collar

Attached Files
225769-HPIM1263.JPG (50 downloads)

Carol <3 Brett
Heidi Rose~*~daughter
Anthony~ Son
Kayson~(son on the way!)
~BATMAN***glider
~~Kalli* pitbull
~Vanilla Bean *Kallis daughter a Dogo Argentino pitbull mix
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20651
05/13/04 02:47 AM
05/13/04 02:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
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Florida
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side shot

Attached Files
225770-HPIM1265.JPG (37 downloads)

Carol <3 Brett
Heidi Rose~*~daughter
Anthony~ Son
Kayson~(son on the way!)
~BATMAN***glider
~~Kalli* pitbull
~Vanilla Bean *Kallis daughter a Dogo Argentino pitbull mix
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20652
05/13/04 05:16 AM
05/13/04 05:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Riker's story is now up on InfoTree site and complete.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20653
05/13/04 08:01 AM
05/13/04 08:01 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
I have a good vet in the Farmers Branch area, but he is not experienced with self mutilatiors. Is there any way he could go to Mary and Charlie? They have so much experience in this area. If you need help transporting him to them, I will be more than willing to help. I am saying prayers for your little guy.
Angie

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20654
05/13/04 01:27 PM
05/13/04 01:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Borbon and I both spent quite some time talking to Carol last night-their difficulty is that their vet won't accept payments but want everything up front. Bourbon gave her another vet's number and we'll see how that works. Sending him to Mary and Charlie is an option if all else fails, but there are a couple others to try first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />She has several babies for sale, if anyone is interested in buying one with the proceeds to go to Jaz's medical-she's having trouble selling because she doesn't want their new home to be with someone too young or who knows nothing about them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> As I understand, there are at least 6 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />. For now, he is in the collar and can't do further damage <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. There also looks now like there might be old healed damage from before she got him, so several things may be happening with this little guy.
Borbon-Yes, Riker took great comfort from that little bear. It was cute, collar or not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />It's still his favorite toy!


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20655
05/13/04 02:01 PM
05/13/04 02:01 PM

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Just because he can't do further damage does not mean he isn't suffering, or in pain. If he has to wait for others to be sold to have his chance at treatment, that is wrong. I am not saying that he is better off elsewhere, but if it is a money issue, the wee one must, must be thought of first and foremost. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> Just my .02.....

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20656
05/13/04 02:35 PM
05/13/04 02:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Xfilefan Offline
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Jacksonville, FL
She knows he needs med. help ASAP-and trying to get hold of another vet to provide it. I don't think the added stress of another major move in less than a month, will help. It looks like he might have done this before, and it healed. I'm glad she took him-in the other home they weren't even aware of what he was doing at all-just that he made this odd noise. So far, she's tearing her hair out trying to get this together and has no wish to see him suffer. Gliders in my area are so recently legal they've hardly been seen by vets, let alone a mutilator-and it can just take time to get proper care even if we wish it didn't. I do respect your 2 cents, honestly, especially after I lost 2 because of a vet I had reservations about and it took over 12 hours to get in contact with another and by then it was too late. Mentioning the babies wasn't saying he'll have to wait for that, but they will help cushion the effect if she can find loving homes-every little bit helps.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20657
05/13/04 09:52 PM
05/13/04 09:52 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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I also agree with Jen on this one, as they are trying their best to do what they can, monies for sm's are never expected, and it is an expensive situation. I know I am one of the first to say, if you can't afford them don't get them, however; no one expects anything like this. she is trying to sell some gliders she has to help with the medical for this one, I know there are many good experienced homes that could help her , help Jaz in this situation. I myself was put in a similar situation, and had to sell almost all of my gliders. but I was able to do it.

While trying to sell her gliders, she is also trying to contact a vet who will put her on payments, but can also do the best for Jaz, even a vet with no experience who is willing to learn and consult , will work. any and all help in these areas will be greatly appreciated.

Charlee, at least she is trying.. that is more than some do. I am grateful that many of you have never had to deal with this type of situation. But in a way it is a hinderence as well, since it is hard to understand the heartache that owning one of these gliders can put an owner through.

If there is anyone who is willing to help either with purchasing some of her gliders, or is willing to help privately, please contact me at []bourbon@iname.com.[/]

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20658
05/14/04 04:32 AM
05/14/04 04:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
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Mary & I offered to take this glider and get it immediate medical attention. We even had transportation arranged. They decided they did not want to let him go. In situations like this you sometimes have to forget your personal feelings and think about what is best for the glider. The glider needs help now! Not in a few days when financial aid can be arranged. I can appreciate the fact that they are trying, but sometimes trying is not enough. We know how fast a gliders system can shut down. When one has an unknown illness it is a time for immediate action, not in a few days. This glider has gone far too long without medical attention.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20659
05/14/04 05:53 AM
05/14/04 05:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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And they really appreciate the offer, honestly. I'm wondering why so much criticism here, when another on the board with a mutilator NOT IN A COLLAR for a YEAR elicited none? He is in a loving home, with people who care and want to love him and help him for his lifetime, and that is not a crime. All they're having trouble with is the start-up. If this is such an all-fired big emergency (and Jaz isn't nearly as bad as Riker was as far as intensity), I don't see anyone offering a loan here that they could pay back. Or a trade, since she has babies ready to go. Or does concern and compassion end before it reaches the checkbook, to fall back on criticism and guilt trips to get your way? Contracts CAN be made. Or is it only help on someone else's terms? There IS more than one way this can be done. Please forgive me for the tirade <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" /> but until you've walked in the other person's shoes-financial, emotional, etc, I don't believe you are qualified to pass judgement on another. Again, I am sorry for the tone of this post, couldn't come up with a nicer way to say it.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20660
05/14/04 07:48 AM
05/14/04 07:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Wallis Texas
Jen
I have offered a solution to the problem with my time and at my expense. Seems all the critizism is comming from you. If you are so all fired up over them keeping a glider that they can't give medical help to, why don't you send them a check to cover the expenses. Start with about $300 and you can go from there. We take in gliders that need help and get them the medical attention they need at OUR expense. With the help of others we arrange transportation. I am sorry if you find fault with that.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20661
05/14/04 10:53 AM
05/14/04 10:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
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Sycamore Illinois
Compassion for these little guys, especially for one in need of help runs very high, please, let's try to keep the focus on Jaz and doing what we can. Personal attacks will not be tolerated, and this thread is coming very close to that.
Thank you,
Karin


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Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20662
05/14/04 11:04 AM
05/14/04 11:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,120
LittleRock, AR USA
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[:"blue"]This thread has gone past the line and has in fact broken Rule No. 4.

However, I am leaving it open because it is an extremely important topic and one that needs to be resolved without criticism. Debating back and forth will do the glider no good at all.

For those who have offered to help, thank you very much.

[/]


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Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20663
05/14/04 11:33 AM
05/14/04 11:33 AM

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and back to my original question

who has or knows a self mutalator? what were the living conditions, diet, yogurt, treats, water, cage size, toys, wheel, dog, cat. every thing i want to find out what makes this happen.

yogurt, this is my concern, most yogurt contains aspartame, this sweetener is toxic to gliders, i'm reserching on how many have had this sweetener and came up with SM.

thank you

robert

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20664
05/14/04 01:16 PM
05/14/04 01:16 PM

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Just a heads up...

I have 3 different brands of yogurt in my fridge, and none of them contain aspartame. I believe its only the fat-free stuff that does. So instead of asking "how many got yogurt", you might get better/more informative results to ask "If they got yogurt, what kind?"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20666
05/14/04 01:29 PM
05/14/04 01:29 PM

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i'm just looking for yogurt with aspartame, not just yogurt. yogurt is good for your glider, and can help keep them healthy.

aspartame BAD!

thank you all for your imput so far this really does help with finding answers.

robert

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20667
05/14/04 01:40 PM
05/14/04 01:40 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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About Self Mutilation

As for the yogurt question, maily the "lites" have the aspertame. we do not suggest using the ones with asperatme, yougurt should be offered each time the meds are administered.

a half of a teaspoon 3 times a week, other than that

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20668
05/14/04 08:59 PM
05/14/04 08:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,730
Florida
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Florida
Well, Jaz has his vet appt tomorrow at 11:30, and he is having all his tests done. ill let you know asap whats goingon so far.


Carol <3 Brett
Heidi Rose~*~daughter
Anthony~ Son
Kayson~(son on the way!)
~BATMAN***glider
~~Kalli* pitbull
~Vanilla Bean *Kallis daughter a Dogo Argentino pitbull mix
Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20669
05/15/04 08:33 AM
05/15/04 08:33 AM

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I think he's trying to find a correlation between aspartame and SM's... we all know aspartame is bad and that's not what he's saying.. I think he's just trying to figure some things out and look into stuff.

Best of luck Carol and Robert.. let us know how the vet visit goes.

Re: self mutalition [Re: ] #20670
05/15/04 08:33 AM
05/15/04 08:33 AM

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Robert, I had a self-mutilator (see attached, prior to SM),until 4 wks ago when I had to put to sleep because of the severe damage he did to himself.
I would be happy to fill you in on the living details you have questioned as they applied to me if you'd like to send a PM or it may be easier to speak over the phone. However, I am sure that Bourbon has told you of her tireless pursuit for answers over the last many yrs & they just aren't able to isolate the causes scientifically thus far, but I welcome the opportunity to tell you my circumstances & see if there are any similarities.
Look forward to hearing from you.

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