Just saw this post, I know you posted this before I posted about feeding cat biscuits as part of my diet but dont assume because I do do this that I am uneducated, I have actually been very well educated all round and that includes educated when it comes to my gliders. My diet is good i have had to work with a cal:ph ratio of 2:1 for 11 years and transfering that over to my gliders was very very easy, I also learnt about their requirments from papers and sources and not forums to get good facts about what the eat in the wild and their required daily intakes to make up my diet. i later then joind forums to learn about captive gliders but chose to stick to my own diet as i felt at the time the diets out were far too high in sugars. Ok i have gone off on one so i will finish there

Edited to remove a removed quote

I never saw that!!! Uneducated? How dare you? And this coming from the person who thinks because we don't eat cat food our suggies shouldn't either? The uneducated repeat just what they have read on other posts without having gained the knowledge through experience. Just FYI I have tried 3 Leadbeater modifications, original, bml and pml, all 3 caused incredible constipation and 1 killed 2 healthy gliders!!!!! I've NEVER had that before I tried Leadbeaters, or since I've stopped feeding Leadbeaters!!!

Tell me Melek007 - how long have you been keeping gliders? How much research have you conducted or have you taken everything you read off a forum as gospel???

I wouldnt eat locusts either but my glider do come to think of it i wouldnt eat meal or morio worms either yuck!

so moorie how often do you feed cat biscuits in your diet? im curious if you dont mind me asking, and how many biscuits per glider

It's most nights now, the ca:p ratio of egg is 0.3:1 so not good, my suggies love the cat biscuits, and I'm not overly keen on using calcium carbonate as a supplement, so by using the biccies they get good complete protein and it's easy to maintain the optimum ratio of between 1:1 and 2:1 I actually only give 4 or 5 bicces per suggie

not much different to me then about 4 per glider here and as said before i do alternate the food including the others but biscuits is used more often, i chose them for the same reason the cal:ph ratios were alot better than other protein sources and it made it easier for me to modify the rest of the diet that night to compensate, plus i think the ingredients are alot better than things such as insectivore fare although i still feed IF occasionally.

I still use IF too occasionally if I have it which atm I don't! It was the ingredients that convinced me too, I don't understand how something with a vast number of ingredients ranging from porcine and poultry by products to shrimp meal and crushed peanuts is acceptable yet the cat food which contains none of that kind of stuff isn't acceptable! It's just beyond me ...

This is a good discussion, I have edited a post to remove negative comments that have been made. I have also had to edit a few posts that quoted the comment. diet topics can cause and have caused many heated discussions, as long as they are within the rules they will remain. Please keep in mind our rules

3. diet bashing will not be tolerated. If you wish to promote a diet then do it on fact rather than by directly or indirectly flaming another diet. If you have something negative to say about BML or any other diet, then be prepared to have GC administration approved proof before you post. We suggest you research diets and choose the one you believe best for your gliders.

4. Be polite,courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. Diversity of opinion is welcome. Abusive, flaming or inappropriate comments toward another person or a person's thoughts , ideas, or creations will not tolerated under any circumstances. Please help us keep the board a friendly, helpful, “G” rated place for entire families. Illegal substances, flaming, sexually explicit, cursing, spamming, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators.

We will not tolerate personal bashing, bashing of others opinions, or diet bashing. If you would like to read up on this topic you should take a look at the Diet Study They compared three diets including a diet consisting of cat food. This was a scientific study done in a lab and the cat food diet held its own and was very comparable to the other two used for this study. GliderCENTRAL does not and will not endorse any diet, we recommend reading up and discussing your options with your vet and make the decision on what is best for your glider. This post and posts like this are how people learn and we will not allow bashing. I will reopen this post and ask that we keep this a civil conversation as it has for the most part.

Cat food has changed, just as dog food has changed in the USA now that pet owners are willing to spend more and more for higher quality food.

I began feeding Dick Van Patten's ultra premium cat food as a protein source after carefully comparing it to insectivore faire(sp?) and all of the glider pellets available on the various sites. I also looked at zoopreem exotic feline food and the "biscuits" that are sold for gliders. I ordered most of these foods and ended up feeding them to the outdoor birds because I wasn't a fan of the nutrient sources.

I made the considered decision to use this feline food as the most digestible of all and it contains certain other ingredients that I believe are nutritionally favorable. I also emailed the company to get the Ca:p ratio and it was almost 2:1 so I was very happy with that. It also has no measurable ash content.

My gliders love it. I moisten it by putting 3 bits per glider on top of their mush mix.

I also use other protein sources as part of a balanced glider diet.

I don't think that any of our protein sources are perfect. Healthy, organically fed live chicks or baby mice would be the best but I am just unwilling to feed these.

My gliders are buff and beautiful and they don't smell when whey protein and this cat food are their primary protein sources. I have to add that I can't for the life of me figure out why the topic of feline food is such a hot one. Glider owners feed human food,hedgehog/skunk/bat/monkey food labeled for gliders, etc w/o blinking an eye.

If your gliders love cat food, get super quality food, read the label and factor the nutritional aspects of the food into the rest of your diet and modify where necessary. And moisten the food for your animals - not because of their mouths but because it's better for their digestive systems than dry food. It's possible to feed the best or most expensive because you are only feeding a few bits per glider.

Does anyone who feeds a diet with catfood want to share their meal plan and also which brands of cat foods you use?

Just remember that not everyone has the results that Moorie has had with some other leadbeaters mixes not every one has those kind of experiences.

I have been feeding Judies BMl for 5 years now with, perfectly beautiful colored and healthy gliders. Their babies are beautiful gray color as well and very healthy. I have also had many generations born on this diet.

I have taken in many gliders as well, that stunk and looked horrid. after a few weeks of being in my care noticed a big improvement. Some of them came to me on diets with cat food (I bet low quality), nuts, bird seeds etc...

What ever diet you choose, stick with it. Feed what ever you are comfortable with, what you thik is the best diet for your gliders and you.

I'm not against a HIGH quality cat food diet (keep in mind that they don't get all cat food), but for now what has worked for me I will stick with it.

Alot of people when they see cat food they think of the cheep stuff you can buy at the gorcery store and this is what I hate about the cat food diet. People dont understand paying more money for a "cat food" when there is a "cat food" for cheeper and easier to get in the grocery store. Also the normal person doesnt know what to look for in a good quality cat food.

My post above has the type of cat food I feed. Moorie, in the UK, feeds Iams for cats over 1 yr of age so adult Iams.

I can't really tell you my diet plan because I feed seasonal fruits and vegetables so the diet varies according to availability in my area. I have a list of fruits and veggies that maintain the overall positive Ca:p ratio of their diet. I also use wombaroo hps,a human whey protein drink powder that is very similar to hps but w/o soy protein, bee pollen, oatmeal, yucca powder, and acacia gum. [yummy, huh?]

Caroline MacPherson's diet is much simpler and fared pretty well in the glider study. Or check out Moorie's diet on her website, shropshire-exotics.com

Everyone should feed the diet that results in the healthiest and best-coated gliders. There is no one single way to accomplish this goal.

Cat food is only one component that must be combined with other foods to achieve a balanced, nutritious diet. It's not a cheap or easy short cut. But it isn't a demon or poison, either.

Dry food must be rehydrated somewhat in a dish rather than depending upon the glider's digestive system to do this. The digestive tract is designed to ultimately extract moisture from the gut contents. So, if you use dry food, put it on top of their nectar/mush mix so that it absorbs a little moisture.

Thanks for the info!

I breed cats so I am aware of high quality cat food and use to feed my cat's Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance - which I believe is the same stuff you were talking about. However, my local carrier discontinued it as I was about the only one buying it. Sucky part of living in a small town area.

I wonder if the Iams formula is the same over here as it is over there? The reason I am asking is it has been cheapened down since they introduced it into the normal stores and I know the quality of the litters of kittens from it aren't like they use to be so many breeders have moved on to other brands.

Sil - My vet told me not to feed any of the leadbeater diets for various reasons and after listening to him rant on it for a good hour I think I will take his advice. But thanks for the rest of the info!

You can find this in the thread links I gave earlier in this thread. Here's what Cerian feeds:

I actually went to several large animal feed stores looking for the +1 Iams that these UK glider breeders have fed for 15 yrs and Moorie for 5 yrs.

I couldn't find anything with that name so I began reading labels. Lots of labels!

I chose the Dick Van Patten brand because of the Ca:p ratio, yucca, meat sources, omega 3s, no measurable ash, vitamin E to selenium ratio, and other veggies and fruits it contains. It also has a short ingredient list but no corn or byproducts. But it isn't the only good one - wellness and others are also good. I just wanted the yucca.

I have spent a lot of time w/lists, labels, the USDA nutrient search website, a calculator, a scale and measuring cups. Only because I enjoy this stuff. I sometimes use green drink and other nutrients. And I have other animals that also benefit.

I think Ceri and Moorie feed the same diet plan that has been successful for a breeder in the UK for 15 yrs. Moorie has fed it for 5 yrs and has never had health problems w/her big, healthy breeders and joeys. It's above in a previous post.

I am not advocating a particular diet but I think we should be able to look at all the options and choose whatever option fits us best and not find diet discussions offensive.

I am not in favor of feeding cat food, but I am not going to tell someone they can not or should not feed what they believe is truly working for them or their gliders. With that being said, the point of my post is this.

I have done a LOT of research on different brands of foods as I only want to carry the best for cats and dogs in my store. IAMS USED to be a very good brand of food, however, since they have started to distribute to grocery stores and big name stores such as Walmart and such they have had to add in many extra fillers and perservatives to keep the prices down for the mass production. It is not as good as a food as it was just a couple years ago.

Natural Balance is a wonderful diet and it contains less ash than most cat foods. It can also be found in Petsmarts and Petcos.
Another cat food that is high in the ranks is called Felidae. Now with this food you may have to check with your local feed stores or your independantly owned Pet Stores as they do not sell to big chains such as Petsmart/Petco because they dont want to have to start adding stuff to it.
Another good quality cat food is called Wellness.

Once again, although I do not feed cat food, for those of you out there that do choose to, I hope I can help in finding some of the best cat food out there for you to use.

Im going away for the weekend but will post my diet when I return and also pull off some info from the cat food labels for you

see everyone monday

slrb, thanks for the felidae tip, I'll definitely check it out. I don't go to Petsmart or Petco, we have lots of other local choices but I haven't seen the felidae. I wanted the yucca component in the food so chose Dick Van Patten's food over wellness, but we feed wellness to the cats. And until Kirkland reformulated, to the dogs.

Thanks for the info.

I like to spend time preparing my gliders food, they get fresh every night so there's no time for any decrease in the potency of the vitamins (pre prepared food kept in the fridge or freezer could lose some of this). The ca:p ratio is always between 1:1 - 2:1. I use Wombaroo HPS as a supplement.

It's not a SET plan as in bml, it's a mixture of fruits (and veggies if you want) that meet the ca:p ratio repuirements, the fruits and veg can be varied depending on what's available. The Iams is 1:1 which is a plus as most protein sources are inverted. Sometimes they'll get egg instead of Iams. They also get live yogurt (which they have to fight me for because it is the most gorgeous yogurt ever!), they get bee pollen, acacia gum, they occasionally get a bit of pasta or cheese and the supplement I use is Wombaroo HPS. (That's not the exact plan btw, just a brief run down of what they get)

All of this has worked superb for me, I just wish either I lived in the US or some of you lived over here so you could see the results for yourself!

But I'm happy to look at other cat foods (the stuff Dee uses isn't available in the UK as far as I'm aware!)

I also chose the ultra premium natural balance cat food because I didn't want any added iron. My gliders do not need added iron as they get enough from the foods they eat.
This food has no added iron,a positive rather than inverse ratio of Ca:p, no measureable ash, and the primary ingredient is whole meat rather than meal. I believe that it is a better dietary constituent than IF or the various pellets formulated for small mammals.

I prepare my glider food in the evenings before they get fed and the fruit and veg changes daily, but as said before I am pretty savvy with the cal:ph ratios of alot of the fruit and veg anyway. I work to roughly a 2:1 ratio and that includes the protein source I use that day. The protein changes every evening I dont feed meal worms often I feed more morio worms as they are easier to feed by hand. I find younger gliders here tend to shy away from the livefoods until they have learnt from mum and dad that they are actually edible, thats also why alot of the protein sources I feed they get by hand.

Acacia Gum often gets stuffed in drilled holes in their branches which they love to lick, dig and claw out, they get supplimentation when needed as well.

The fruit and veg changes mainly due to whats in season at that time but I always make sure its as accurate as I can possibly make it. The cat biscuits Iams +1 is brilliant, the ingredients really are good they are a real improvment (in my opinion) to IF that I used to feed on a regular basis,

I personally think we are learning more and more about our more exotic animals/pets every day and any new or different information shouldnt be brushed aside because "its not the way it was done in my day" a fair few years ago iguanas were thought of as omnivores and were fed a mixed diet of veg/fruit and insects such as crickets or locusts, it was later discovered that they are infact strict herbivores and the protein was killing them, but to this day people will still argue that we are doing it all wrong because we choose to feed our iguanas a purely veggie diet, some books still advertise the fact iguanas eat insects (very outdated). What I am trying to say is everything is changing and diets are improving I remember the original leadbeaters diet that was not designed for gliders but was fed to gliders, the diets have come a long way since then new ones are popping up all the time, and people are starting to come forward with the way they feed their gliders which may be different to the norm its working well for them and they are no longer worried about beling flamed for doing things different.diets will change still in the future as people try new things and learn more about the glider.

eccles

I think you made a good point. Mainly about the Iquana's everyone should update their Information about exotic pets.That is one reason I'm here I have learned so much

Two questions what are morio worms and what kind of tree branches do you put the Acacia Gun in ?
Great idea

Tessie, if you could please start a new thread on those questions so it will get the proper answers you are looking for. We like to stay on topic and this one is pertaining to cat food. Dont want your questions to get lost in a thread.

Our store just started carying a new pet food called "By Nature Organics". This is the first time I've ver seen it and it is expensive - $2.99 per lb.

There is no corn, wheat, or soy in it and the first ingredient is Organic Chicken followed by Chicken meal. Anyone know about this food? I bought a 1 lb bag of it to see how my cats would like it and they only picked at it but I gave my glider a couple pieces and he devoured them.

There are some great cat foods out there that are all organic, grain free, and include fruits and veggies in the diet. This to me is very progressive and seems to have better ingredients than any commercial glider food I have seen out there. My gliders love it. I have cats, so I have offered it to them. I have always fed Zupreem exotic feline diet (canned premium zoo food for large exotic cats) as part of my regular glider diet. I only feed it 3 times weekly because it seems to make them a little chunky. My vets think this is fine, and I have been doing it for quite a few years now, and none of my gliders has ever been sick, and they get regular vet check ups.

Lumpy jaw is not caused by dry food. Its caused by bacterial infections and periodontal disease. Ask any vet. Not to mention lumpy jaw is the wrong word for the problem anyway. They get mouth abscess. One argument for these mouth infections/abscesses could be bad dental hygiene. Dental hygiene is achieved through chewing on branches and bark (as they woud do in the wild to get to saps and insects) and from eating hard bodies insects that help rub off accumulated tarter and food from their teeth.

Nice! I never thought I'd see the day when this would become common knowledge around here. I love that things have been moving along in these forums. Very good post Resonance! This thread is a great read.

Mikey

The problem is Mikey it's not!! Lumpy jaw is still being used as an arguement against using hard food - I've even seen post saying we shouldn't feed beetles because of the hard shell! It's STILL being pushed on to newbs, as are a lot of old myths like the cat food one for example!

There are a few of us out there though but mostly we're ingorned. lol

I have actually been wondering if my glider should have crunchy stuff in his diet. never thought about cat food. I added a piece to his food last night (nutro natural choice) and he loved it.

Woohoo!! It's great that people are becoming more accepting and casting aside old myths (which is total opposite to what I said in the post before last LMAO!!!).

Nice, Moorie. Well, I'm not going to beat a dead horse by pointing fingers at people and saying "See? I told you so", but I'm just glad I no longer have to read "it may lead to scrapes in the mouth" posts anymore which is absurd as a glider's very dentition and gums are designed to handle the roughage of tough tree bark and fibres, despite whether or not the stuff is swallowed.

Mikey