Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey

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Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey #212731 02/04/07 01:14 PM 02/04/07 01:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous*
sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous* Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio	Quite often, when a joey is not doing well and there are some signs of possible rejection, the question is brought up as to whether to hand raise or simply supplement feed the joey. On Friday, I was faced with this dilemma myself. Coobah & Carina's joeys (twin boys) came oop on Thursday, 2/01/07. They appeared somewhat smaller than usual for Carina's joeys and so I was a bit concerned but not alarmed. On Friday, after attending a funeral in the morning, I got home just before noon and checked on the joeys right away. Sadly, I found one of the boys already dead and cold in the pouch, simply being ignored by Coobah and Carina. The surviving twin was crying but it was a weak hissing sound instead of the normal, strong joey cry I am used to hearing. I took him out of the pouch and looked him over. He appeared more wrinkly than he should and was in the beginning stages of dehydration. So, what to do? Supplement or pull completely? I immediately started giving him Pedialyte and struggled to get him to drink a few drops. For the first two hours, I continued to offer him Pedialyte every 15-30 minutes until I was able to get him to take .25 cc's in one feeding. Then I tried to put him back in with Carina & Coobah. Although they immediately cleaned him, Carina would not allow him near her pouch. I inspected her pouch and it appeared healthy. Why was she not willing to feed him? Was he just too weak? Questions abounded, but no apparent answers were available. When she turned her back on him entirely, I took him back out of their nesting pouch and placed him inside my bra, wrapped up in a nice fleece blanket for added warmth. For the first day, I fed him every hour around the clock. By midday yesterday, I was able to cut the feedings back to every two hours. Periodically, I would try to put him back into the nesting pouch with Carina & Coobah, only to have them react the same way - initially clean him with frenzy, then completely ignore him. I continued to feed him and placed him in an incubator during the night so I could get a bit of sleep between feedings. This morning, I was totally exhausted from the rigorous schedule of waking & feeding him around the clock for 2 days/nights straight. At 8:30 this morning, after feeding him .5 cc's of formula, I once again tried to put him in with Coobah & Carina. Praise God! This time they were willing to take care of him. He has been with them for the past 2.5 hours except for during the brief feeding at 10:30 when I had him. Carina still isn't feeding him, but she is cuddling him and keeping him warm. I will continue to feed him every two hours and hopefully they will take care of him in between times, but I will be keeping a very close eye/ear on them to make sure he's not being ignored. Here are a couple of pictures that I took of him yesterday afternoon I have named him Burnum, which is Australian Aboriginal and means "A Great Warrior" because he has certainly fought to survive! So, to answer the original question: hand raise or supplement? The answer is not simply cut & dried - only close observation of the parents' behavior with the joey can truly answer that question. By continuing to give them the opportunity to continue caring for the joey, I was able to keep them familiar with his smell so that he was still acceptable to them. Had I noticed any aggression towards him at all, I would have immediately stopped the "visitations" but since they continued to have initial interest, I continued to give them the opportunity to take him back. I believe that he was too weak on Friday and yesterday and so they simply gave up on him; however, this morning, he was much stronger and so they have renewed hope for him and were willing to start caring for him again. Whether Carina will start allowing him to nurse again is another question entirely. It is possible that after 2 days she no longer is producing milk and I may have to continue to feed him around the clock for her. Only time will tell... Suz Enyedy Carina & Coobah Allira & Gizmo Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah Suz' Sugar Gliders

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: sugarglidersuz] #212765 02/04/07 02:18 PM 02/04/07 02:18 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	I will keep you and the little joey in my thoughts and prayers, He is in the best capable hands! Keep us updated on his progress!

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213078 02/05/07 02:23 AM 02/05/07 02:23 AM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	He IS in the best capable hands! I agree wholeheartedly with Laura... You and him will be in my thoughts and prayers....

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213805 02/06/07 04:24 PM 02/06/07 04:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous*
sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous* Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio	Although we both tried really hard, Burnum just gave up the fight I tried everything, but just couldn't get him to make it. He was doing really well until this morning and then he took a turn for the worse... Suz Enyedy Carina & Coobah Allira & Gizmo Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah Suz' Sugar Gliders

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: sugarglidersuz] #213851 02/06/07 06:10 PM 02/06/07 06:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,732 Utah S silverwolf Glider Slave
silverwolf Glider Slave S Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,732 Utah	I'm so sorry suz you have been such a great help to me with my little one. Just know that you did everything you could for this little guy.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: silverwolf] #213898 02/06/07 07:04 PM 02/06/07 07:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3,884 Wyoming tbull Glider Addict
tbull Glider Addict Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3,884 Wyoming	I'm so sorry for your loss. T~ www.lovegliders.com Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with catsup Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: sugarglidersuz] #213902 02/06/07 07:11 PM 02/06/07 07:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 10,983 Denton, TX ValkyrieMome *Glideritis Anonymous*
ValkyrieMome *Glideritis Anonymous* Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 10,983 Denton, TX	Oh, Suz! I'm so so sorry! Alden "Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs; and very many great gliders! (plus the 2 skin kids) valkyriegliders.com Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ValkyrieMome] #213910 02/06/07 07:26 PM 02/06/07 07:26 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Suz, I'm so sorry. Sending lots of hugs and prayers your way.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213913 02/06/07 07:33 PM 02/06/07 07:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,295 Chicago, IL FURBYnGIZMO Glider Addict
FURBYnGIZMO Glider Addict Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,295 Chicago, IL	Suz, it's so sad to see you type in blue I'm so use to your signature green More HUGS sent your way Jenny Furby -- Kalila -- Deuce -- Gizmo Furby Kalila Deuce Gizmo

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213916 02/06/07 07:37 PM 02/06/07 07:37 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Oh Suz Im so sorry...he had the best chance he could have got with you but I guess it just wasnt meant to be. Sending you a big overseas hug

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213940 02/06/07 08:31 PM 02/06/07 08:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2000 Posts: 5,363 Ok Sheila Serious Glideritis
Sheila Serious Glideritis Joined: Feb 2000 Posts: 5,363 Ok	I am so sorry for your loss. I know very well what that feels like. I have never had one live for 5 days and die. I have put them back in with the parents for the duration even though I feed them round the clock. I do feed my joeys every 1.5 hours apart until they are 7 days old and then increase to 2 hours. Many times we get tired with the feedings and feed them too quickly and it goes into their lungs. It is very hard to regulate. I am so sorry. ToandFro Gliders http://www.toandfrogliders.com USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting! WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #213943 02/06/07 08:33 PM 02/06/07 08:33 PM
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2,501 Parsons, Kansas dranger1108 Glider Addict
dranger1108 Glider Addict Joined: May 2006 Posts: 2,501 Parsons, Kansas	I'm so sorry Suz Michelle's Sugar Glider Babies & Toys USDA licensed breeder http://www.freewebs.com/michellesugarbabytoys/index.htm Neat glider themed products! :glider: http://www.zazzle.com/dranger1108/products :glider:

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: dranger1108] #214005 02/06/07 10:21 PM 02/06/07 10:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,234 Tarpon Springs, FL mattysmom Glider Guardian
mattysmom Glider Guardian Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,234 Tarpon Springs, FL	I'm sorry to hear this little one didn't make it. You tried your best. I did discover recently - while reading about hand raising rejected hedgehog babies - that it is very, very important to mimic the mother's cleaning process which stimulates their digestive system. I use a cotton ball dipped in warm water and rub their tummies until it is "obvious" that their digestive system is working. You also have to make sure you don't underfeed or overfeed. It's really difficult to raise them by hand from their first day but who can not try? Moira & Matty & my zoo

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: mattysmom] #214009 02/06/07 10:29 PM 02/06/07 10:29 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	oh my gosh...although I don't know you personally Suz, I DO know if YOU couldn't help him stay here....then it really wasn't meant to be.....our condolances for your loss.....we are so sorry....

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #214063 02/06/07 11:45 PM 02/06/07 11:45 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	so sorry for your loss. sending love and hugs.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #214068 02/06/07 11:53 PM 02/06/07 11:53 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	OOPS....we forgot this [size:20pt]HUG!!!!!!![/color]

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #214237 02/07/07 08:26 AM 02/07/07 08:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous*
sugarglidersuz OP *Glideritis Anonymous* Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 14,788 Cleveland, Ohio	Now that my emotions aren't quite as raw as they were yesterday, I can try to post a bit more information about what happened yesterday. First, I want to start by saying that I truly believe, in retrospect, that there was something truly wrong with this joey (and his twin) from the start. Carina is normally such a strong and very joey-protective mother, that to have her actually reject her joeys is a shock and a definite indicator of something being seriously wrong. I know that she is in excellent health and has no problems with milk production nor does she have any type of pouch infection right now. Therefore, the problem HAD to have been with the joeys' health to begin with. There are many who would say that I should have just let nature take its course from the beginning rather than trying to save the life of little Burnum. On an intellectual level, I can agree with this philosophy; however, being a nurturer/rescuer personality type, it's just foreign to me not to try my utmost to try to save any little one in distress. As for Burnum, in particular, I knew right away yesterday morning that he had taken a turn for the worse and that it was very likely that he wouldn't make it. I have successfully hand-raised and supplement-fed quite a few joeys in my 4 years of breeding, so I know all about not feeding joeys too often, massaging them to help with digestion, etc., etc., etc. I'm not saying that I know everything there is to know, just explaining that I have a lot of experience in this area (unfortunately). In spite of my efforts, little Burnum just wasn't meant to survive, and that's what I have to face and accept. Much as I wanted him to, much as I pleaded with God, the fact of the matter is: there was something wrong with him and it was beyond my control. I'm not God and I can't change the course of fate... Anyway, I'm starting to ramble and probably just repeating myself and not making much sense, so I'll end this now. Thank you all for your support and encouragement. I really appreciate it! Suz Enyedy Carina & Coobah Allira & Gizmo Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah Suz' Sugar Gliders

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: sugarglidersuz] #214248 02/07/07 09:43 AM 02/07/07 09:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 250 Reading to my girls in Florida W WholeheartMom Glider Explorer
WholeheartMom Glider Explorer W Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 250 Reading to my girls in Florida	Suz, how beautiful your heart and soul are! You truly are the rejected joey's friend and saviour, not only to your babies personally, but to the hundreds of other joeys whom you have helped second handedly. So many times you have selflessly given of your time and shared your many years of wisdom with others who are struggling and lost without a clue as to how to help their little rejected joey, and you have ALWAYS been there, EVERY SINGLE TIME. Consider yourself a part of every joey who has been saved through your sage wisdom and selfless generosity in sharing it. One of those joeys who you have helped is my little Blondie girl, who is thriving and healthy thanks to your willingness to help. Little Burnam was one very lucky boy! He had the best angel in the world looking after him, but sometimes even the best cannot create a miracle, especially if it is just not meant to be. But you did make a difference... A huge one! He had warmth, love and sustenance as well as prayers and blessings. Every rejected joey should be so lucky... Hugs to you from us and from all the joeys whom you have been a part of! p.s. Blondie says "ssst,ssst, Me iz up to 18 gwams now and I am uh sweetee" I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: WholeheartMom] #214357 02/07/07 02:17 PM 02/07/07 02:17 PM
Joined: Apr 1999 Posts: 5,336 Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA B Bourbon Serious Glideritis
Bourbon Serious Glideritis B Joined: Apr 1999 Posts: 5,336 Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA	my heart and prayers remain with you suz Baybe,My Roots SGGA CustomCruiser BML Sugar Glider Genetic Project 321-331-1608

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: Bourbon] #214383 02/07/07 03:18 PM 02/07/07 03:18 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Oh Suz I am so sorry. He was so lucky to have you. I can only imagine how u must feel right now and my prayers go out to you.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: ] #214465 02/07/07 05:08 PM 02/07/07 05:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,830 USA SugarBlossoms Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms Serious Glideritis Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,830 USA	Suz MASSIVE HUGS You have always been there for me with the past loss of our rejected babies. I bugged you to pieces this last time but thanks to you we have Sarah Ann. She wouldn't be here if you didn't hold me up through this. Thanks to you she is now going on 7 weeks old and healthy. I am so sorry this happened to you of all people who give of themself so freely to help others in this situation. It is obvious something was wrong with the joey in this situation. I know you did everything you could. The joey was beautiful, only God knows and it's mama what was wrong on the inside, something us humans can never see or know. Know that you have saved many many joeys and helped others like me save a joey. You are truly a Glider angel, a blessing to us all and are always there to help when we need you. Now it's your turn. You may never know how much you are truly loved although I've never met you and may never, I Love you. ..as many others here do I'm sure. God Bless you and I pray your heart has more peace everyday. Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul. My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe. Spread your wings and glide free of pain, Until the day I see you again. God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

Re: Hand Raising vs. Supplement Feeding a New Joey [Re: SugarBlossoms] #214751 02/08/07 01:53 AM 02/08/07 01:53 AM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	oh suz, i am sooo sorry everytime i see a post on rejected joey's you are always the first one to either reply or you are the one that everyone suggests talk to. (sorry if that didn't make sence i wasn't sure how to put it) i hope that your next joeys go a little smoother. ((HUGS)) for now.

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