All this talk about BML has gotten me thinking and now I have questions, one of which is: Does anyone use Vionate instead of Herptivite when making BML. I could've sworn that I read somewhere on the Suncoast website that Vionate may be used instead of Herptivite for BML (in conjunction with Rep Cal calcium). Anybody know?
The reason I ask is that if people are concerned about Herptivite, being made for reptiles and all, perhaps shouldn't be used for mammals than is it possible to substitute with Vionate since it is made for mammals? Are the ingredients in Herpitive different than Vionate? The straight Rep cal calcium shouldn't really be a concern though - it's pure, natural calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is calcium carbonate, whether it's for a human, a horse, a lizard, or a sugar glider.
Last edited by Padros4; 05/21/0702:05 AM.
Re: BML Questions
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#292679 05/21/0706:41 AM05/21/0706:41 AM
Shuttershade- I have read up on cat food, and while I don't incorporate it into my diet for gliders, it has been used successfully in MANY gliders for years. It is not the sole diet, and is probably more widely used in the UK, but it is used VERY successfully. You are talking about carnivores and omnivores of different species, but what about within the same? The SAME vitamins are used for carnivorous, omnivorous, AND herbivorous reptiles. And, as far as I know, the same for nocturnal and diurnal reptiles, who most certainly metabolize several vitamins differently from each other. In any case, you were talking about an anti inflammatory--I don't understand how an animals digestion effects that? Perhaps it has a special casing? As far as not giving pets something specifically made for them... Unfortunately, there's not a lot out there for gliders. In any case, I think I've already given several examples of things that can be used cross species.
You also mentioned animal muscle protein causing aggression in males, however, this does not explain mealies. In any case, many feed chicken as a protein source, and some offer live/frozen prey, such as pinkies. In my experience with feeding either of those, I've never seen heightened aggression. They eat bugs and small animals in the wild--if you want to talk about feeding animals what's designed for them, that's it!
Padros4--there are differences between vionate and herptivite. You wouldn't be able to incorporate them into the BML mix.
Re: BML Questions
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#292730 05/21/0710:05 AM05/21/0710:05 AM
This is what I was talking about from Suncoast's website:
"If you are using Leadbeater's Mix as the primary part of your sugar gliders diet, we recommend a dosage of 1 Teaspoon of Vionate and 2 Teaspoons of Rep-Cal Calcium per single batch."
I'm new, so I was wondering if "Leadbeater's Mix" refers to BML, or does it refer to the original diet before it was modified?
Re: BML Questions
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#292737 05/21/0710:22 AM05/21/0710:22 AM
I'll have to find the site I was looking at. Someone had posted on thier page that catfood did something bad to the gliders. It didn't say a specific type of catfood, it said dry catfood. Then under it it said "Solution: NEVER feed catfood!" I'll look for it when my headache clears up.
Also, please read my posts more carefully. I clearly said that excessive protien does not affect all gliders. It's a natural chemical reaction and the fact of the matter is, it can happen. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it can't happen. I know of a couple of gliders that are highly sensitive to protien in their diets. They go berserk and have withdrawls from it. Although one of them is in fact a rescue from an awful home. On the other hand, there is a glider that I am very well acquainted with (I am babysitting him as we speak) and he gets mealies and boiled chicken nearly every day. He's nothing but a big lover. He's intact, too. It can happen, but it doesn't always happen.
&, There are atleast three different calcium supplements for reptiles that I am aware of. My vet does not recommend any of them, but he has explained to me that one of them has nothing added to it that would make it unique for reptiles. In fact, some people mix it with their pet birds' grit to substitute cuttlebone. My vet showed me this supplement along with another that was specifically for reptiles. He explained to me that there was an enzyme in the powder that attracted itself straight to the reptiles' skin and bones. I'll look for specific product names, once again, when my headache clears up.
(Just got back from the hospital which is why I'm not in school.)
I think some of you are looking for a perfect diet, and you're not going to find that. We have several diets that are different and all work... the gliders get what they need and thrive.
As far as your comment on cat food, it just goes to show that you shouldn't always believe what you read without doing further research. Cat food alone would not be a balanced diet for Sugar Gliders, but a high quality cat food without a bunch of junk in it, could be a good diet for gliders, with other things of course. However, I just don't agree that Sugar Gliders are the types of animals that should be fed something straight out of a box. The main reason that cat food is not suggested is because it can cause gliders to get a tooth abcess, or come down with lumpy jaw. They are sap suckers by nature, so anything hard and fed all the time, is going to be considered to be bad for them. Quicko makes a pelleted Sugar Glider food, I have seen it appearing on the shelves of pet stores...I bought some to check it out. The pellets are just as hard as cat food.. so even though this new stuff is made FOR gliders, I would consider it to be something to steer clear of.
As far as not using things for one species that is meant for another.. that is inevitable. It happens everywhere, all the time.. for everything. Animals eat human food, animals get human medications.. and animal foods/vitamins are used on other species than what they are meant for. Not saying it's the BEST thing, but I've seen Ferrets eat cat food.. Hedgehogs eat cat food.. Chinchillas eat rabbit pellets... Humans and animals recieve Amoxicillian..
When manufacturers put something on the market, I'm sure that they aren't aware of everything that their product can be used for, and even if they did, they can't market it for everything. Rep-Cal vitamins have been working for many, many years for Sugar Gliders.. I'm sure someone could almost duplicate the vitamins and call them something glider related.. and people would feel more comfortable feeding them because they are directed straight at Sugar Gliders rather than reptiles.
No diet out there is perfect, nobody knows ENOUGH about gliders yet to be able to say what is THE BEST thing out there for them. All we can do now is offer them balanced diets and keep researching.
The basic diet for sugar gliders should always follow the basic plan.. "Protein Source + Fruits & Vegetables + a Nutritional Supplement + fresh water".
I myself have been feeding BML for a little over 5 years and I have nothing but healthy Sugar Gliders. If I ever went to another diet, I'd go to Priscilla's.
you still havent answered the questions at hand though. I listed a number of ingredients in the herptivite that actually HELP with cancer patients and in no way would CAUSE cancer. I would really like to know which vitamins/amino acids/ minerals or combinations of them would cause such an effect in a glider like that?
In order to produce rapid cell growth at a rate in which it will cause cancer, there will have to be a large amount of that particular substance over a long period of time. At that point, we can disect EVERYTHING we feed them and find at least on thing that causes cancer in animals or humans.
Unless you can point out the difference that is apparent in reptile vits, then I just have to take this with a grain of salt. Kind of like when the news was saying that broccoli caused cancer.
And you also never explained your whole: "dont listen to the 14 year old" comment.
The Rept-Cal is pure oyster shell and nothing more, so there is nothing in that powder specific to reptiles. SO it doesn't make sense why your vet would not recommend those.
are you aware that almost all animals are givin amoxicillan, which is a cross species antibiotic. So really, the whole, it was made specifically for this type of animal arguement doesnt hold water unless you tell us the compound that is used for skin re-growth.
I use BML too and I'm totally fine with the rep-cal and herptivite vitamins. Calcium is calcium and vitamins are vitamins. Sugar Gliders are going to process the vitamins differently than reptiles, taking what their body needs and humans who take calcium and vitamins are going to process it differently than an animal would. If it was the same substance but called Sugar-Cal instead of Rep-Cal, maybe people would feel differently about it.
Kristin :glider: Sparkles & Flower Loving Husband Christopher Proverbs 3:5,6
Lindsay, I think what Shuttershade was saying is that they are the 15 year old & you shouldn't take their word for it, but should talk to a vet? That's what I got out of that, but
Brenda 970-616-2872 Gliders: Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa Dogs: Nacho & Dory RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas
I don't know what the compound is. I was told of three different types of calcium. One my vet didn't have in his posession, one he recommended only to reptiles, and one he didn't recommend, but didn't particularily have a problem with. One of these supplements was just.. Calcium.. One of them was calcium with a skin vitamin(and according to him, the most popular of the three) and the one he did not have in his posession was apparently being passed off as nothing but calcium carbonate, but it included steroids and growth manipulators; the buyers feed it to their pet, the pet grows, they think the pet is healthy. I was told that this last supplement is not common in pet stores anymore.
The cancer is not as common as the skin problems. When this skin production compound goes into a lizard, the lizard sheds its skin. Gliders do not shed their skin. The skin gets thick to the point where the glider could very well be malnourished and the owner isn't aware of it (though if your glider's food is disappearing, obviously he's eating just fine). The underside of the bottom layer of the glider's skin becomes irritated (the skin grows outward) and the skin production slows to accomodate the irritation. The glider's skin stays the same thickness or goes back to normal quickly, and a problem is almost never noticed. But now the glider has all of these chemicals floating around near its skin. Gliders have nearly all of thier natural instincts even while they live with us. The glider is going to try to expell the chemicals the best it can. Since the skin has little connection to the bladder or bowels of a glider, the chemicals must be expelled through scent glands and perspiration-like release of moisture. Gliders don't particularily perspire.. But they do release moisture through their skin, which is another reason they are prone to dehydration. A sugar glider releases the same amount of moisture that a large rabbit does, but sugar gliders are smaller than large rabbits. They require more water. The more foreign chemicals that are in a glider's body, the more moisture it is going to release through its skin to attempt to expell them.
Also.. I forgive your ignorance, but I have no problem with the pure calcium. I am talking about reptillian supplements that are ENCOURAGED for marsupials. Oh yeah, and.. Learn to read perhaps.. I'm fifteen. Not fourteen.
I am trying to prevent animal abuse. I have not yet figured out what you guys are trying to do.. Encourage it? I don't know.. Just do your poor defenseless pets a favor and if you're going to give them calcium, read the ingredients labels. Please. I beg of you.
Also, I have just finished some animal testing (Using crickets. Don't freak out.) and I will take photographs later this evening after the effects show more accurately what long term exposure to these things can do to a critter.
I can't wait too long because everytime I try, the cricket dies.
I do realize that crickets are different than lizards and sugar gliders, but I have done the same experiment with several different insects. All have died. I was also informed that an older boy heard of this experiment and tried it with sparrows. Needless to say, one did not do well.
Sugar gliders hide their illnesses so well. What if they are hiding this?
EDIT: Okay.. So much for that.. The cricket died already and those were my last crickets. =(
Well.. Photos anyways.
One cup has a vitamin capsule in it that mainly concentrates on the skin.
The second cup is the calcium powder I mix into my bird's food. I added a few drops of water to both cups to encourage the crickets to eat what was in their cup. These crickets are the same size. They were both in different cups and fed the supplements at the same time. They were both the same color when I put them in there.
..I probably should've photographed the whole process. Either way..
KEEP IN MIND: These are INSECTS. They are as far apart from reptiles or marsupials as anything could possibly be. Don't freak out, because nobody's sugar glider is going to die because of this. Crickets are tiny. Smaller than my pinky finger. This stuff is more sensitive to them.
I am trying to prevent animal abuse. I have not yet figured out what you guys are trying to do.. Encourage it? I don't know.. Just do your poor defenseless pets a favor and if you're going to give them calcium, read the ingredients labels. Please. I beg of you.
This isn't animal abuse. So many sick gliders near death have recovered tremendously when they were given BML. We all love our gliders so much and we look for signs that they are unhealthy or malnourished. My babies are given BML and they look great!
Kristin :glider: Sparkles & Flower Loving Husband Christopher Proverbs 3:5,6
What animal testing did you do on the crickets? What did you give them? The lifespan and anatomy of a cricket and it's digestive system is way different than a sugar glider, so if you are going to use that as a good case... tell us what you did.
Kristin :glider: Sparkles & Flower Loving Husband Christopher Proverbs 3:5,6
I am aware that you are 15, age does not matter. I got my first glider when I was 14 years old. Age means nothing when it comes to being mature and able to care for something.
For being 15 though, I am sure that you have not done all the EXTENSIVE research that vets and many others went through to create BML.
The ABUSE that you are talking about, is a VERY poor choice of a word.
Nobody is sitting here saying that BML is the best diet, but it is a PROVEN, RESEARCHED, and successful diet. It works.. and so far has not been harmful to Sugar Gliders.
If you want to talk about abuse, which, when you pin that word to the BML diet, you are diet bashing.. I can tell you about real abuse. Not only from my schooling and seeing abuse of all kinds first hands that my patients recieve from poor care, but from all of the gliders that I have taken out of ABUSIVE homes.
I support BML. I think it's a fantastic diet. It's my second choice next to Priscilla's diet.
What I do not support are skin vitamins. Sugar gliders eat more than enough food rich in vitamins that nourish their skin.
The thing is, people are so ignorant. I read every ingredient on every package of food I give my pets. If there's anything there that I am not familiar with, they don't eat it unless my vet says so. Why on earth would you feed your pet a skin vitamin it didn't need? Read the calcium supplements. That's all I am begging people to do.. And I will do whatever it takes to make that happen.
Last edited by BeckiT; 05/21/0702:50 PM. Reason: removed inappropriate word
Here are some pictures of gliders who came to me from homes where they were fed NON balanced diets.. Bandit, who is pictured there, only started growing hair back because of BML.. all the hair in the 2nd photos.. is back because of BML.. and his nails aren't thick and yellow anymore..
As politely as I can, I am going to request that you not accuse me of diet bashing. I have no problem with BML. I have stated so multiple times. I recommend it. But, I will continue to stand up for what I believe in. I believe that sugar gliders should not be fed chemicals that are not right for them. And nobody can ever change that whether they want to or not. Thanks.
Sorry about that. Your post only partially loaded the first time around.
SugarBaby22, would you do me a huge favor?
Okay, thanks. =)
I'd like you to read this board over again and look at what I've been saying ever-so carefully.. Just look. Breathe deeply. Pay special attention to the parts where I said I had nothing against BML.
And while you're doing that, I'm going to lay down. I had surgery the other day, so forgive me for my slowness. I haven't had sufficient rest.
If you care about your pets enough to read the ingredients labels on the calcium supplements, you'll find that a glider being fed a suitable calcium supplement will have been fed one with none of the skin production compounds.
Now.. If you'll excuse me, I really need to lay down. =|
If you do decide to feed your gliders the BML diet, you can NOT take out the rep-cal OR herptivite out of the ingredient list just because you do not think that Gliders should be fed those "chemicals" If you are that against those vitamins, then you should probably not go with that diet, because that is strictly the vitamins the BML calls for. you say you recommend the BML, but you are against those vitamins. It's either all or nothing with a diet, you can't add or take out things to make it what you want, that could be very harmful for the gliders. You say you read all the ingredients that you give your pets and if there is something you don't understand, you don't give it to them. Do you read every ingredient that you eat? There are probably many ingredients that none of us understand and I guarantee we all eat them. Sugar gliders do not get all of their nutrients from everything they eat, that's why we give them vitamins. Just like people, we don't get near the amount of vitamins and type of vitamins from our diets, that's why I personally take so many vitamins that I can't get from diet alone.
Kristin :glider: Sparkles & Flower Loving Husband Christopher Proverbs 3:5,6
Take note that there are INGREDIENT LABELS on every ingestible edible in this country (unless it's something obvious like a box of blueberries) including calcium supplements. If your calcium supplement says something like.. "Pure calcium carbonate" or "Ground seashells", OBVIOUSLY it is not going to be harmful.
If there is a word on your pet's food that you cannot pronounce.. It's probably best to CONSULT YOUR vet before feeding it.
If you don't want to consult your vet, don't feed it until you can. Wow. They ought to make an easy button for that one, eh?
This is my second time (atleast) attempting to explain this.
I apologize.. But I just can't take it. It kind of hurts my feelings when I've said something three times and people still accuse me of ignoring major aspects of the conversation when they themselves have been ignoring major aspects of the conversation. It's very frustrating.
And nevermind my going to sleep. I can see that it isn't going to happen.
So how's the weather? It's just fine and dandy here.