So the Baytril won't work? (again?) Oh no! I've already started it again...but only one day so far. I'll go to the vet again and get that. It's bad enough to have to do one med a day since it tastes so bad, now two??? Uuuuuhhhhhh! Oh well, whatever it takes. I'm not sure what you mean, break? As in the tail??? She thought it looked fine especially where it healed over the end, but it's still bald above it. Any ideas on that? It's been about 2 1/2 months since she did it and it's been healed for quite a while and the bandaid is just over the tip. I thought maybe I was keeping the hair from growing back with the bandaid, you know, kinda smothering it or something, so I make them really, really small, but I've been doing that for a long time now and still no new hair... Maybe it just won't come back. I don't know, and she still has the bald spots above her eyes, but her eyes look much better than they did. They were sad and not "bulging" like they're supposed to, now they're much brighter and she opens them wider now! LOL Except for the scarring that was left on her eyeball from the eye infection she got right after the tail ordeal, she's looking much better. Seems like the hair on her head will start to fill back in and then sometimes it looks bald again! She's got me stumped for sure! Do you know how much of the meds to give her and how often? When she went to the vet in the beginning when she was really sick (after the tail) she only weighed 2.2 ozs. and I know she's gained a LITTLE since then, but not exactly sure how much. They don't have a scale to weigh anything that small! LOLOL I tried a small stuffed hamster, but she didn't seem to like it in her pouch. Maybe I'll try it again or try a different one. Thanks again ladies. You're a big help for me!

It's the "red spots" I am concerned with. If they're sure it's not broken, infection is likely. And 2 isn't much worse than one...measure the 2nd med into a syringe, put it in a spoon, and then suck it up into the first syringe with the first med-and give them both at once, followed with a treat she likes. And because it's an extremety, there very well may be an anerobic (meaning 'without air') bacteria at work as well. If the baytril didn't clear it, chances are, repeated courses will be less effective-time to change meds. The combos I suggested cover the broadest range of both gram positive, gram negative, and anaerobic you can hope for without knowing the specific bacteria you're trying to kill, and go for a similar duration...2-3 weeks. Depending on how they mixed your baytril (injectable form, or in a suspension?) there are ways to store where you can keep it on hand for up to 6 months or more so it's on hand if you need it...try and find out how it's mixed. The symptoms are consistent with an infection that isn't clearing. Good diet will help, too, but any 'bugs' still in there need to be gotten rid of-and sometimes it's hit and miss and not easy when it's an area you can't culture.

And yes, I meant a broken or cracked bone in the tail. The only reason for that hair not to grow back is if she's still taking it off herself. New growth should begin within 14 days. Like was discussed, a cagemate will help in the longrun, but the skin, when healthy, should be very white-almost ghostly, and have no red or other discoloration.

The two "red spots" were gone the next day. The skin wasn't broken, just spots like they were rubbing on something. I'm not sure, but I think she might have been rubbing it on her wheel, when I took it out that night they were better the next night. Now she looks really bad again. The bald spots above her eyes are back and her left eye is "sickly" looking again like when she had the eye infections. She has scarring on her eyeball from last time. I don't understand why she can't seem to get over WHATEVER this is. She gets better for about a week or so and then starts looking bad again. Cage is clean, she plays with mom, sometimes they sleep together while they're with me during the day, but mom seems too interested in her tail still for me to put them together at night. She doesn't seem real interested in mom anyway. When I get them both out, she rubs on her a little then goes back to her pouch to sleep. The bald spots on her head are getting worse and worse. Tonight I noticed the spot above her left eye was bald all the way down to her eyelid. It seems to just be spreading. And the two spots above her eyes on the top of her head the skin isn't white, they're reddish colored now. It almost looks like it hurts, like sunburn...vet said it wasn't fungus, have used fungicides before, didn't seem to help any, left it alone thinking she was overgrooming and didn't want her to "eat" the fungicide, but they still didn't get better. I don't know what is wrong with her. My vet was on vacation, and the other vet here was busy Friday with a stock trailer full of COWS (almost all he works with) so I haven't been able to get the other two meds yet, but will try first thing Monday. If I can get my son's camera, I will have him take a good picture of her and see if I can put it on here. I don't know how to do that, my son probably will, he's a computer whiz since grade school! :-) Maybe you could see what it looks like and have a better idea. I'm beginning to think she just doesn't want to get well, like she's giving up...but her appetite is much better than it was before...so I don't know. I'll try to get the picture now. Thanks again for all your help.

OK. Here goes. He said to just paste this link for the pics. Let's see if it works... One shows the bald spots on her head. One of the bare tail and one of her nose that seems to be almost purple now...not sure about that. Read something on another site about someone who had a glider with allergies and she said hers had a purple nose, that got really dark, something about allergies and then something about e-coli???? Anyway, here are the pics (if it works) Thanks again ALL!

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2141/26037540kf6.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/932/12747296vs0.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8000/43959722xn7.jpg

Your little girl is NOT well. I'm sorry I wasn't on much last night. Start with the meds combo ASAP. A dark red nose like that means that blood is rushing to the area most likely to fight infection. If she has an infection in her upper jaw/sinus, it could also be into bone. Go with the Clinda/Flagyl combo. Her tail, while it may be stress, I would suspect is more than that. Greasy looking fur indicates lack of grooming that means she really isn't feeling well. If there is an infection into bone in the head, Xray might show it. But don't go there if she's not strong or well enough to tolerate the anesthesia. Baytril has already failed, the combo is the next step.

Here's a pic of my Riker's Xrays (before and after) when he had a nose that looked like that, plus overgrooming.

The first is with the infection.

The second was later on meds.

OH ##!**!#! That sounds really bad! Infection in the bone? Her nose just started turning to that color. Hope it hasn't been too long for the medicine to work. Wonder what would cause that kind of infection? She has been acting like she's chewing on something and flopping her head some...that just started too! Like she has something in her mouth (besides the bad taste of meds) that she's trying to shake out. Maybe the short hiss sounds she keeps making is sneezing? Doesn't really sound like when she sneezes, though??? ...The vet should be back Monday, but I think I asked him about the Flagyl before, and he didn't have any, maybe the other one has some. Is it a fairly common medicine? I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean anything. In your pictures, the one that is NOT normal...is it the really bright glowing area with the kind of "jagged" line that is showing the infection? I don't know how to read those things...they all look the same to me. One does look really clear compared to the other. You suppose that is why she has bald spots on her head, and they have redness on the skin? The oily looking hair is from the Animax medicine I put on her skin, it seemed like it helped when it first started then it quit working. She has been grooming, that's why I don't put much of anything on her head anymore, afraid she might "eat" it. Then I would have another problem with her. I hope it's not too late for her...She's still eating and drinking so maybe I still have time to get her well. This has taken so long, I feel so sorry for her. Everyday it seems like she has something new...Any idea what would cause this type of infection? Thank you so much for your help. I'll go tomorrow to check on the medicine, just hope I can find some. Thank you again. I'll let you know how it goes.

Some times, when infections in the head get severe, it is very hard to treat and can take longer for the meds to work. Riker was ill for quite a long time and on meds for a very long time to make sure all the infection was gone.

As long as she is fighting it, don't give up on her. But I agree, the sooner you can get her on the meds Jen suggested, the better. Flagyl is the brand name for the medicine.

The hair loss is only a symptom of the problem. Treat the problem and the hair will take care of itself in time.

Thank you. We can definitely say it's severe...she just looks awful. I know she has to feel the same. At least she's still eating and drinking, more than she was doing in the beginning. It's been about 2 1/2 to 3 months of "doctoring" and she's still not well. She will probably need another month or so of different medicine before she will improve AGAIN. She was getting so much better after the tail and now this. I keep thinking it's something I'm doing that is making her sick, but I can't think of anything...then I thought last week she was just making those noises because she knows I will come back in there and check on her and carry her around. Thought maybe she was "tricky" enough to figure that one out, then her nose started changing so I knew she wasn't that "tricky!" LOL She's just trying to tell me something else!

I haven't had any advise to offer, so I've not posted before. But I just want to say that I'll be praying for you and your little girl. I hope you're able to get the meds you need ASAP in order to help this little one heal. My two didn't have these problems, but when they were sick I had to syringe feed them 5 times a day along with their meds. I think it helped them get their strength back up so that they were better able to fight off what they had. They didn't enjoy it (and neither did I), but I knew they had to eat to get better. I put the BML mix in one syringe, and then used a food processor and mixed and chopped fruits and veggies together to put in another syringe. So they got their meds, then BML, then fruits/veggies then a couple mealies (to end on a good note).

My vet is also willing to do consults during the clinic hours. I know Jen's (Xfilefan) vet has probably seen more illness, but it never hurts to have more contacts! Here's her information and hours.

Dr. Teresa Bradley
Belton Animal Clinic & Exotic Care Center
1308 N Scott Ave
Belton, MO 64012
816-331-3120
816.322.7377 (fax)

Hours:
M-F 8am - 11pm
Sat 8am - 1pm then 6pm - 11pm
Sun 6pm - 11pm

Boogie, I did get your message, along with some others. Flagyl is the brand name of the med. It is also known as Metronidazole, or Metro. It's one of the ingredients in over the counter yeast and fungal medications (DO NOT try anything over the counter-those are for external use ONLY)-just to point out its a very common med.

Any vet that sees dogs or cats should have it, although for cats its made with a fish flavor and smells like rotting fish-YUK! I've put it down mine that way-they don't like that one at all (thankfully my vet now makes it cherry/bubble gum flavor!-doesn't seem to make them take it without the syringe but at least I don't get the horrified EWWW look) - follow with a treat like a few shreds of cheese or yogurt drop to get them to swallow the med with it-once they've swallowed a treat you know the med is down.

It's commonly prescribed in oral liquid form for internal parasites...giardia, trichomonads, some worms, and anerobic bacterial treatment.

First vet was still gone on vacation, other one didn't have it at all and couldn't get it soon enough. The one that saw her last month has tablets, said she could crush them and mix them somehow and flavor it, but didn't know if that would work. One 35 miles away gave a number where to get some liquid, but didn't know what kind of animal I was even talking about. Was a grouchy guy that was cussing when I said how much she weighed...Don't know what that was about. That was just perfect for the way my day has gone. Really needed that, too, on top of everything else! The vet that saw her last month was in surgery off and on most all day, so she asked me to call. She was hoping for an amount, so asked me to call and I got the "legal" stuff about being in another state, etc., so I've had absolutely nothing but phone calls and frustration all day and still haven't gotten anywhere...vet's going to see her again tomorrow, said she might try to call the Utah vet again, but thinks she'll probably just consult with her vet friend at OSU again...he's seen two so far, but just wellness checks, no, sickness. Probably won't get much info there either, but that will probably be more cooperation than any others I have seen here. Either way, I guess they're getting their education at my expense and my baby's. I appreciate TracieB for giving another number, but I guess it won't help us much here and thanks for her prayers, that's all I've been doing for about 2 1/2 to 3 months now, hope it keeps working. My apologies to Xfilefan (Jen) if we caused any problems...definitely won't happen again. We'll just stick to what little resources we have here in Oklahoma that I'm able to get to and hope for the best. Again, I appreciate all of you, gotta go check on my baby and bawl some more. That's all I've been doing all day. Thanks again, everyone.

The vet can't give that information on the phone except to another vet. If it can't be started for a few days, it's okay. You got the other one. Go ahead and give that one for now-you can add the other one in as soon as it's available. But to avoid legal issues, the vet has to be the one to call.

Most meds can be made with crushed tablets, if they come in that form, then put into suspension for use orally. The amount of mg/ml, and how much to give the glider, will depend on how much the suspension dilutes the tablet. I've had a few meds done for me that way by the vet-including my Riker's thyroid meds, when the liquid form isn't available. So yes, that is an option.

We want your little one to get better, and my vet was sad she couldn't help-she wanted to but her hands really are tied. Tell the vet who told you to call (they should have known better!) to call them, and mine will be more than happy to give the info to the other vet so your little one can get the meds she needs.

Add: my vet didn't say who called, just that it was a very upset owner, and wanted to make sure I wasn't telling owners it was okay to call. The referrals here are the only ones I've given, and this is the second time for this type thing-I don't want the resource to be lost. I am not unsympathetic-I know how frustrating it can be sometimes, especially when I was new before I found the vets I have now. If a vet ever tells anyone to call for a dosage (which if you don't know what it's mixed at won't help anyway) remind the vet that an owner CAN'T get that information.

My vet said she would call her tomorrow but she was tied up with a wild stray cat hit by a car someone brought in and said it wouldn't hurt to ask, if she couldn't...then she couldn't. I didn't tell her who I was, I said a woman I spoke to online told us about her and she said your name and laughed...I'm sure my vet knew about the "legal" stuff, but under the circumstance today she was just trying to help as quickly as she could before I could get her there. It doesn't matter. I don't think she's going to make it through the night anyway. Think I need to try to find her mom a home where they have vets that know how to treat them before she gets sick too. The only vets we have here are COW vets...You know us Okies...we don't know much of anything else...

I hope that's not the case. Is she eating/drinking? vet can jumpstart meds in the morning, if it's available, by an injection of antibiotics to start things through her system, then continue with oral meds. For now, keep her hydrated. Dehydration is a sick glider's worst enemy. Check her and make sure she's warm also...when ill a glider can lose the ability to regulate their own body temp. If she feels cold, keep her on you to provide body heat so she doesn't have to. Sometimes just sitting with them on you can pull them through to a vet visit-don't underestimate the power of physical contact.

Even inexperienced vets learn. I've had to drive home the point that with gliders...'wait' is not a term that applies to them.

She's eating, haven't seen her drink yet tonight. Think she likes the tiny stuffed "Simba" animal I put in with her last night. She's curled up around it. She's warm, but breathing really, really short and fast, then takes a long breath kinda like a sigh..Gotta tell her goodnight and take a bath and go to bed. Have a bad headache from crying. Guess I better learn to suck it up, in case it doesn't turn out good.
I'm getting discouraged, grouchy and disappointed. I need to go to bed.
My SINCERE appreciation to EVERYONE for trying to help.

Check on her often, like set an alarm clock to get up every so often. Put drinks in there other than water if you can (shallow dishes are fine)...apple juice, fruit nectar, gliderade, whatever, to encourage her to drink and stay hydrated. And please keep us updated.

Finally found a vet in OKC at PetSmart. Says he's seen lots of gliders, some worse than mine. She went last Tuesday to Weahterford vet and got Clavimox but no flagyl, only had tablets. Her breathing got worse Saturday night, she bit the very end of her tail again, not as bad as before, but made it sore again. This vet at PetSmart listened to her heart and lungs, looked at her tail and nose and the top of her head. He gave her a different antibiotic (said it was a little easier on the digestive system, stool was very soft again from Clavimox. He also gave her a bronchodialator (?not sure how that's spelled?) for her "bronchitis," and/or respiratory infection and Acepromazine for her "neurotic" behavior with her tail and head. She's pretty sedated now and I'm supposed to give the sedative and bronchitis meds twice a day. Says they may cause loss of appetite, I'm guessing it's because they don't WAKE UP TO EAT! ;-) Anyway, she seems to be breathing a little better now at 10:30 p.m. than she was at the vet. She still ticks a little when breathing, but not as loud or as often. He said the vaporizer I have been using was a good idea, could keep using it, don't know if it's helping or not. Took 2 hours at the vet today...I think I wore a path in the floor pacing back and forth waiting for him to go out and come back in, go out and come back in, etc. Was a busy guy. Hope that means he knows what he's doing....

Boogie, the first vet DID call mine the next day, and has the dosages information. Check back with her. They already have her history, etc, so it should just be a matter of filling the meds prescription for you.

In the meantime, keep your little girl warm and free from any drafts. If there's open windows, A/C, or fan, cover the cage with a sheet so no moving air is going over her. Keep her hydrated with liquids.

Ace is not recommended for use in gliders. Usually horses and cows. I'll have to find the thread, but there are better, safer ones. You also don't want her sleeping too deeply if there's fluid in her lungs-she could, in essence, drown. Valium is one of the anti anxiety meds, but not my vet's preference-I need to go find Mareki's thread-brb.

Here it is, History of a Self Mutilator:

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/303105#Post303105

And your little one is overgrooming because something hurts-in gliders it normally isn't neurological alone, though that is a component in the overgrooming, it's not the sole cause.

One of the meds recommended for this one for the neurological part was Haloperidol (it's used in other small exotics like birds, also) and the others I can't remember.

It might help to read Mareki's story if you haven't though-you aren't the only one.

DO keep those antibiotics going down at regular intervals. If she's developing pneumonia-that, warmth, and fluids are very, very important right now.

First vet said take her somewhere else. She's done all she knows to do. Says she's not set up for something that small, bloodwork, etc. This place is an animal hosp., says he's seen several. I'll have to stick to someone who's seen one before. He's got all the history, meds she's been taking, tail problems, etc. He's supposed to call tomorrow to check on her. We'll see.

I hope she hangs in there, and you, too. I went looking, and found part 2 of Mareki's story-this CAN be beaten.

Mareki Pt. 2

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/323621#Post323621

vet didn't call Wed., like he said. Today she seemed to be panting harder again, nose is still purple, but don't think it's AS bad...wonder how long the bronchiodiator takes to work? He said the airway should be opening better by Monday evening or Tuesday morning. She DID seem like she was breathing a little easier until today, but maybe the vaporizer isn't such a good idea. Seems like when I turn it on is when she comes out of the bag and hangs on the side of the cage panting really really hard. So he said to discontinue the vaporizer & if she hasn't improved by tomorrow to bring her back. I can't figure out why no meds will kick this? Her head looks better, but she was eating better before I took her back to the vet. Now she doesn't eat AT ALL. She's still drinking, but I think I'm going to have to force a little mix in her so she don't lose any more weight. She only weighed 61 grams Monday. Think I'll just give her the Ace at night after she eats some (If I can get her to eat). That's when she was doing all the overgrooming and obsessed with the tail. She doesn't do it in the day. It doesn't knock her out. She's just really really calm, but I don't think she needs it twice a day anyway. I was reading about rabbits and guinea pigs in nebulizer chambers for respiratory infections. They say it works really well, better than oral antibiotics alone...wonder if she needs that. Guess I'll ask tomorrow or Sat., since he's going to be there Saturday too. Depends on how bad she is tomorrow. Might have to take her back then. No vet has even taken an X-ray or any blood work yet, wondering if she's in need of that. I'm afraid to do X-ray, since she can't breathe, she probably can't. She's sooooo mellow now from all the doctors and me messing with her so much and from the Ace...maybe they can just hold her and tell her to "SAY CHEESE!" :-) JUST KIDDIN'!

Sweetie, I'm sorry but I REALLY don't thik this is something that you can "wait and see" on. You said your in Oklahoma, right? Have you checked the vet database to see if there's anybody near you?

http://www.glidercentral.net/links/pages/Vets_Database/United_States/Oklahoma/index.html

Infections can be really hard to beat in a glider, especially if they didn't completely clear up the first time 'round or they happen to be prone to a certain type of infection; I've known gliders who have taken months and months to heal from problematic infections like this!

I'm really worried that if you don't get this little one on the right meds PRONTO, you're going to loose her; I don't want to sound mean, but the truth is that gliders aren't like cats or dogs or kids - waiting a few days can LITERALLY the difference between life and death for these little ones, even if they've had the same problem to some degree for a while now! I, like Jen, and like most of the people around here are telling you this from personal experience - we've made our mistakes, and we don't want you to make the same tragic errors that we did because we didn't realize how important it was to get the issue delt with IMMEDIATELY.

If you're going to take ONE PERSON's advice about gliders and vets, TAKE Jen's! She has had more experience dealing with this sort of thing than most of us could ever imagine, and her advice is ALWAYS both SPOT ON and completely WORTH TAKING.

Please don't give up on making sure this little one is being treated properly, her life is in your hands.

You've been given great advice.

Don't wait on the vet to call you. Call the vet! DEMAND that the vet take the necessary tests. Print out everything Jen has written here and take it to him.

This is your glider's LIFE here!!

Either tell this vet to get moving or find another one ASAP. There is NO time to mess around here. This has gone on too long as it is. You are the one paying the vet to do a service, make them take care of your baby or refer you to someone who can without playing guessing games.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you are going to lose this glider kid if something isn't done FAST!

Their lungs are very tiny, and very sensitive, and I don't think the Ace is going to help as much as hurt, honestly. If it were one of mine, I wouldn't give it at all. If you can get them to, Clavamox would be worth trying...it is an enhanced amoxicillin, very common and any vet should be able to manage it. The human grade is called Augmentin. It will also soften the stools, so feed a few (3-4 individual) oatmeal flakes with it. I might go with a few days of Metacam for inflammation (NO MORE THAN 3 DAYS on that one), then a mild pain med like Torb, but you don't want her too out of it, like this is doing.

She's got to get some food in her, also. Get some Ensure or use watery BML and put it down by syringe if you have to every couple hours, .5-1.0 CC/ML. Plus fluids-watery gliderade would be best for the vitamins/minerals, but Kerns nectar mixed with pedialyte will work if necessary. Go slow so she doesn't breathe it in-she doesn't need more issues there. I had to do this for weeks to help pull Riker through severe HLP that almost killed him. Again, keep her ON YOU and WARM as much as possible. I slept in a chair with Riker on me in his pouch under my robe, getting up every hour or so to check on him.

Hydration, Warmth, Nutrition, Fluids, Antibiotics-and constant care is what she needs right now to live.

To show that vets are not infallible, my first rescue, Dana, who had a joey and started at 150+ grams, I took into the vet after 2 weeks because she suddenly started vomiting and dropped to 64 grams! The vet I took her to had helped when Riker had HLP AND done his neuter, so, relatively new to gliders (9 months owner) I thought he was relatively competent. Boy was I wrong, and it drove home just how much some vets DO NOT KNOW.

I took Dana in...nursing a 4 week OOP joey the prior owner hadn't even known was in there, for him to REFUSE to look at her, tell me she was fine, nothing was wrong, and refuse to even give an antibiotic. Gliders do not throw up and lose half their body weight in days over nothing. By the time I found another vet, and learned to assert MY wishes, since it's MY money and MY animal-it was too late for her. It was Giardia. Sometimes you have to go in, let them know that YOU are paying and THIS is what you want for your money...X antibiotic, X med, X tests (whatever they happen to be), and remind them it's YOUR animal. Don't take no for an answer. They DON'T all know, regardless of what they say, and especially with these animals. A vet willing to consult, who will admit they don't know it all, is worth a lot.

Here is your reality right now: she cannot drop any more weight, and needs your body heat to supplement hers. Her body can't generate heat and fight infection this bad at the same time at this point. You can remove the one burden from an overloaded body-keep her on you. That will also help the antibiotics work. Since infections like this cannot be cultured, it's hit and miss to find the right one...if you dont' see significant improvement in 2-3 days max, you need to try a different med. Her hydration is also top priority. If she dehydrates it will put even more strain on her body. Dehydration can kill a healthy glider in 24-48 hours-let alone a sick one.

I've had 27 gliders come through my home. Most rescues with varying illnesses, a few healthy ones. I can only draw on my experiences with them, and with others I've helped with, to help you. In a lot of cases I know what has worked for myself and others, and what hasn't...and what this vet is doing is NOT working. MAKE them listen, or find one either that will, or that will consult. Insist on what you want, and what your little one needs-her life depends on it.

Most don't know that a vet takes a very similar oath to a doctor when they are licenced-I dont' remember all of it, but it starts the same way:

"FIRST, DO NO HARM..." Remind them of it if you have to.

We can draw on knowledge and experience to help, but are not vets. It's up to you to take the steps necessary to get your baby what she needs. We are very, very worried about her at this point. I know not a lot of people have posted...that happens when they don't know what they can add. A lot of us are watching though-so although you may have to enter a vet's office alone, GC is here for support...for decisions, for a shoulder, for the good of the glider (and their owners). I wish I could tell you what they gave you will help, but I can't and be honest.


I have to get back to work now, but as always, I'm watching your thread...and so are others.

Let me add this. She doesn't need handled by strangers now, and I doubt she could survive anesthesia-that is hard on both the lungs and body. If she could be still for an Xray without it (it has happened a few times), it could be useful for seeing what's in the lungs. A vet can listen to heart and lungs while you hold her, to reduce stress. She does need meds that will help without making it harder on her body to function, let alone heal, and all the help from you possible.

Jen is giving you all the best advice and support possible! Thanks Jen! I just wanted to say that I am so sorry that your little one is going thru such a horrible time. You both are in my thoughts and prayers.

Boogie, how is your baby doing?