..And that post about older gliders wasn't even about older gliders at all, really.. It was about abused, rehomed gliders that are ornery and don't trust anyone.

Lol, I hate having to explain things that don't have much relevance to the big picture..

Many rehomes are ornery and don't trust anyone. Not all, not most, but many.

=/ I'd keep going but I'm still in a bad mood over losing my paycheck. Sorry.

I"ll go first!!!! If some one don't post before me

1. Got my first glider 9 1/2 yrs ago

2. She was an impulse buy

3. I got her because I fell in love with her face!!

When did I feel I was capable to have breeding gliders you ask? Honestly 5 yrs later!!!

I agree, it's not something to jump into right away!

"And it's selfish to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to have their own gliders. If there were only twenty glider owners in the world, GC would be a very tiny place." -shuttershade

no one here said NEWBIES SHOULDNT OWN GLIDERS.. They said newbies shouldnt BREED gliders.. And they SHOULDNT. People come on here, and they're like, "I got my first glider and she is so cute. I am feeding her raisins and monkey chow. Is this good? I am going next month to get a boyfriend for her, i would love to see the cute little babies"

Now, at this point, these people think that they have a glorified hamster and having babies wouldnt be a big deal. The worse part is when you TELL them that if they get a boy, they really should neutered for various reasons, their response is, "well, i will think about it, but i really want some babies"

Honestly, if the only reason you are breeding gliders is because you
1. cant afford a neuter
2. just want to see baby gliders
3. want to make money

then you should re-think it. Those are ALL selfish reason, INCLUDING JUST WANTING TO SEE BABIES. People who dont even know what to feed their gliders are putting their gliders at risk, and their babies just because they want to have cute joeys in their house.

And obviously as most have already said, these gliders who belong to the newbies are from pet stores, or they got them from friend. And when you tell them that the reason they shouldnt breed is because they dont know the lineage, they just discount that idea as people just being difficult because they are new..

I think there should be a sticky in breeding and babies forum about the dangers of inbreeding and breeding rescues, rehomes, and pet store gliders. Maybe SHOW a one legged glider that came from an inbred glider family, or show what a cannibalized joey could be like. Post real stories about a glider who was overbred and became ill or died from it

There will NEVER be a day where you will have to pass a test in order to become USDA certified, we cant even get the USDA to change the minimum requirements for breeding animals.

I'll go next.

1. I got my first glider, oh, I think close to 5 years ago from a lady who posted the glider for FREE on Craigslist! Why? Because I had recently (within a month) learned what they are (actually I think I was watching the E! channel and heard about Paris Hilton having one) and did some research and felt that they were right for me. When I saw that ad for "free", you better believe I snatched that glider up before anyone could blink! I drove to pick my glider up an hour after she posted it!

2. I didn't "decide" to breed, the gliders decided. Actually, I had picked up a pair who unbeknownst to me, had some buns in the oven!

o____o I really wish people would read all of the posts in a convo before flipping out over it..

I'm out.
Adios!
=)

oh yea..

I got my first glider about 6 months ago. He was somewhat of an impulse buy, i saw a girl in a petstore with 2 sugar gliders.. i LOVED them and asked where she got them, i asked her questions and then went home and did some research (although i didnt find this site until after i got my glider) so about 3 months later, i was in the petstore that sold gliders and i had some extra money in my bank account.. I talked to the girl in the small animal department and bought him on the spot along with a cage.

I just LOVED the suggie face and the way that they actually bond to their owners.

I never decided to breed, and never will. If anything i will work with a rescue. I have 5 gliders now, and all are rescues or rehomes - unwanted gliders. I think that unless you are working to better the breed, and can keep the number of babies to the amount that you KNOW you can sell, then dont breed.. I see newbies on here who have thier FIRST pair of joeys and cant even find a home for them.. then it usually ends up in them giving them to any home with $200 so they can get rid of them before they get too big - usually because the momma is pregnant again.

who's flipping out?

What then, would you consider a good reason to breed gliders?
There are large scale breeders here who are praised, and obviously make great money from breeding gliders. What is the reason that they breed gliders that is considered okay?

We certainly don't NEED gliders being mass produced when there are so many in rescue homes. So why is it okay for large scale breeders to breed SO MANY and not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies?

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning.

I am not going to comment on the large scale breeders because thats really not what this post is about, but i can tell you that you will not find a post from me praising them

I will say that atleast one of the big GOOD breeders are able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow.

I'm not differentiating between what is considered a good or a bad large scale breeder. They are all breeding on a large scale regardless of whether or not they are considered "good".

What I'm wondering, is why it's okay for anyone to breed on such a large scale, but it's not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies.

If you're saying that it's okay for large scale breeders to breed so many because they are "able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow", then wouldn't that be considered breeding for profit? Which is a reason you listed as being a bad reason for breeding?

And don't you think that a person who only has one pair of gliders that has babies can find a home for them just as easily as the breeders who have multitudes of babies?

I think it would be easier to find a home for one or two babies than a plethora of them.

Hold up there Lindsay, I am a "newbie" and I am planning on breeding and who are you to assume that all newbies like me don't know what they are doing and that their gliders came from a petshop and that we don't know what to feed them or what the cost of neutering is and that we think our gliders are glorified hampsters?
Your really out there on this one. Give some credit to those of us who (like you) have fallen in love with gliders and have done the research to find out just what is needed to care for them and, there is more to breeding than just considering lineage.
Kali

Relax Kali, I'm sure Lindsay didn't mean to offend anyone.

My honest opinion is that MOST people should NOT breed ANYTHING ! WE have numerous animals in our house(check my sig) and all are spayed or neutered or kept in same sex groups. Most of them are also rescues or re-homes. I personally think there are way too many animals that need forever homes so why are so many people making more. My boyfriend and I are so in love with all of our critters that we rarely spend time away from them if possible. I don't think breeding is ok just because you love the animal, In fact in many cases breeding can stress out the animal.

Too bad Bob Barker retired !

My first glider was a male rescued from the humane society about 5 years ago. After that I rescued a few more gliders, which I never allowed to breed.

I owned gliders for almost 3 years before I decided to start breeding. My reasoning is because there are no breeders here in the NorthEast. The only way to get a glider here is to have one shipped from a breeder, or pay $350 for an untamed, possibly inbred, unhealthy glider from a pet store. I wanted to be able to provide people with affordable, healthy, sweet joeys. When I did decide to breed, I did not just start throwing my existing males and females together to experience joeys. I selectively purchased gliders with great lineage and history of good health in their lines. I do have many gliders here that do not breed. Most of them are because I do not know their history. I also have gliders here that I did purchase to breed. Some on them have been retired without ever getting a joey from them because they have decided that they do not want to be parents and cannibalize their joeys. I respect their choice and have placed them in a non-breeding situation. A partially eaten joey is a horrifying thing to discover in the bottom of the cage.



I find that comment almost humorous. I could be considered a large scale breeder, as I do have almost 20 pairs of gliders that produce. I am deeply in the red and will be for many years. Breeding healthy, well-documented lineage gliders is very costly. Besides the initial expense of the animals, cages, toys, wheels, pouches, etc., there is also the weekly food bill, which exceeds the amount of money that most people spend on glider food in 6 months. There is no "great money" in breeding. I have a job outside of the home just to support my glider addiction.

When people start breeding thinking that they are going to make money, they are sadly disillusioned. If breeding is done correctly, there is little to no profit. That is why it is so sad to see them start breeding for that purpose. By the time they realize that it is not possible, they are dumping their gliders.



Again, no one is saying that pet owners should not breed. We are just asking that before they make the decision to breed, that they research and know what they are getting into. Also, that they are prepared to keep joeys that are not sold, hand raise a joey that is rejected, retire any parents that canabalize their joeys and that they do NOT breed animals with unknown lineage.

hey first...Bob Barker retired?...when did this happen?

and second i just wanted to say that i am a newbie. actually i have been researching gliders for the past 4+ months and just recently found my first that i want. i was not about to just take any thing once i became informed! My baby girls have to be shipped because there are not any to purchase. the closest is 7 hours away. i have spent countless hours reading and looking up information.

The reason i got hooked on gliders is because i was in a pet store 4+ months ago and saw these cutest little things and had no idea what they were. They seemed very far from content and happy and i asked if i could buy them...mainly because they did not seem to be in a comfortable place. The pet store owner told me that they were mean and she could not sell them. I talked to her for about 2 hours and she could not answer any of my questions. it was not until i got home and looked them up that i found out why they were so sad and mean. She was feeding them hamster food! nothing but dry corn,nuts,and pellets. They had no pouch!! they were forced to sleep in a wooden box...NOT ONE TOY! not even one in the cage. When i found out what these little ones needed to be happy i was horrified that these two were made to suffer!! NO wonder they were grumpy!!! I went back and tried to buy them again and again she would not let me. I guess it is for the best because although i could give them a wonderful home i want one that will bond to my family. I dont know if the two she had could bond after being treated so poorly for so long.

As for breeding i agree that there are far to many be mass produced. I dont know if i will ever get a male. that would require more research and thought. I do think that a newbie can be informed and have the knowledge necessary...if they are like me and invest the time and energy required to do what is right for the sugars. I wanted to be sure i was ready that is why it has taken me so long to finally pick my girls

I find it suprising that you find it humorous. There most definitely ARE people who are making lots of money off of gliders. I'm not going to name names, but I know of a couple of people who are making their entire living off of gliders. Meaning, they make enough money to support themselves without having to work an actual job. That's profit, and it's very real.



I don't know you or your situation, but your situation does not pertain to everyone. There are people who profit from gliders, even though you don't.



Someone with one or two pairs is not going to make a lot of money, obviously. But again, without naming names, there ARE people who turn a profit.



I did not say that anyone said that.

The point I'm trying to illustrate here, is that so many people on this board preach about how gliders should not be bred by the average person, but then turn around and give praise to people who are breeding LOTS of gliders.

And in the same respect, some large scale breeders get labeled "mills" while other large scale breeders are put on a pedestal. Funny how the so called "mills" are people who aren't on this board to defend themselves and their practices.

I love this board, but it just seems like people get a little "holier than thou". And it discourages many people from even posting on this forum. I didn't even start posting for a year after I was coming here.

I am not saying that it is not possible to turn a profit breeding gliders. There are many mill breeders that are making a living breeding gliders. I guess it would be a matter of opinion how many breeding pairs you can have before you are considered a mill. I do not know of a single "large scale breeder" who is making their entire living off of breeding. The few that I can think of that fit that catagory, that do not work outside the home, have husbands who finacially support them. They may turn a small profit breeding their gliders, but certainly not enough to be considered "great money" and could not make a living doing so.



I have never seen anyone telling the "average" person that they shouldn't breed. Only to research before they start and not to breed gliders they do not know the lineage of. Do you feel that it is ok to put a male and female together that you have no history of and allow them to breed?

When you said that you found my comment humorous, and that "There is no great money breeding gliders", that sounded very much like what you were saying.



Just because you don't know of one doesn't mean there aren't any. I have met a couple.



One of them is a man, and he doesn't have a husband supporting him. His wife works together with him in his glider business. They make their living stricly off gliders, no outside source of income.



By great money, I don't mean getting rich, but definitely a good profit. And yes, there ARE people who make a living from gliders.




Oh I have seen it numerous times!

Lol!

That's all I can say!

XD

I am sorry, I only meant for the "average" breeder and most large scale breeders. The only people that I am aware of that make a living on breeding have 100-200 pairs. I consider them to be more than just "large scale" breeders.

You avoided my question, though...Do you believe it is acceptable for people to breed gliders with unknown lineage?

Ok, enough arguing, you all have gotten a little off topic and it seems there are a few that just want to argue, if that is true please take it to Pms. I have personally learned from being a part if this forum that you can NOT change anyones minds so stop trying.

"If you're saying that it's okay for large scale breeders to breed so many because they are "able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow", then wouldn't that be considered breeding for profit? Which is a reason you listed as being a bad reason for breeding?"

I am not saying that its OK for large scale breeders just because they can sell the amount of gliders that they raise.. I'm saying that ATLEAST they can do that, the mill breeders breed sooo many that the ones who are less desirable or deformed ones get neglected until they die, ATLEAST the bigger "well known and loved breeders" do not do that. DO i condone such large scale breeding? Thats for another post. That is too far off topic, but if you want to talk about it more, PM me and i will happily tell you my stance on large scale "accepted" breeders.

"Hold up there Lindsay, I am a "newbie" and I am planning on breeding and who are you to assume that all newbies like me don't know what they are doing and that their gliders came from a petshop and that we don't know what to feed them or what the cost of neutering is and that we think our gliders are glorified hampsters?
Your really out there on this one. Give some credit to those of us who (like you) have fallen in love with gliders and have done the research to find out just what is needed to care for them and, there is more to breeding than just considering lineage.
Kali"

I am definitely NOT out there on this one. Those who are LIKE ME fell in love with gliders and decided to give their pets a loving home and NOT breed. You are not like me because you, for one reason or another decided you want to breed. I am not going to judge you as a person as to the reasons why you want to breed, but i am allowed to give my opinions. Also, i dont know how soon you PLAN on breeding, but that plays a big factor as to whether or not you fall into the category which i explained above..

If i was to explain everything there is to be concerned about when breeding outside of lineage, my post would hav been pages long. I was just saying a few examples WHY newbies shouldnt breed.

Even if you have read and DONE everything, you are still in no way experienced enough with just the general care of sugar gliders.. really, take everything you have read, and multiply that by 1000 and that is how many questions you will have in the first 6 months of having sugar gliders.. then when you throw breeding into the mix, you are asking for issues..

Actual sugar glider ownership experience is the only way to become a knowledgable breeder, and theres no ways around that. You need to learn things about situations, problems, illness, behaviors that you can not read about.

I by NO means just want to "argue". My intention in commenting on this topic is to address the bias regarding breeders. Nor am I making an attempt to change anyone's mind.

I usually do speak up when I think something is unjust. However, if it's just going to spark flames rather than intelligent conversation, I will refrain from addressing such sore subjects, regardless of how valid they are.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with Lindsay. Breeding is difficult to find a good reason for when you consider all the homeless gliders. I also don't see that whether you are a newbie or a glider veteran is of much significance. There is still such a shortage of good homes. If you have one pair, and you want to have ONE baby (or set of babies) that will all remain together as a colony and after the one or two, everyone gets neutered, fine. Then babies will have a good home and you can experience the joy of a raising a joey. But there is no such thing as having an occasionally breeding pair. Animals will breed as they wish. If you were to separate them when you don't want to breed, they would suffer from the separation from their mate. It's just cruel. Anyone who is registered on this forum has an infinite amount of information available to them. It is inconceivable that they would be oblivious to the overpopulation and lack of decent homes. There really isn't such a thing as responsible breeding. If you live in a state that has no overpopulation problem, find a state that does, and adopt from a rescue. There are enough homeless gliders here in Texas to put a few in every good home out there. Help a glider who is already living, and doing so in misery, find a home where it can know love.

Back to the question of when did we get sugars and why
...
I got my first, Kiwi, in November, from an individual breeder. he was living proof that buying from a very small scale breeder is not always best. he was wild. ( and yes he did pass away... the reason why does not belong here.)

I got him after almost 6 months of research, for the simple fact that I liked sugar gliders and felt prepared. I spent over $1000 on cage and setup alone, I am not saying this is necessary but I do want all to know that I was definitely prepared.
I bought a female in february and they became a pair. they did have joeys.

and for the discussion...
I do have a single breeding pair, but am I considered a breeder? They have only 1 joey at a time, no more than 3 times per year. I also am trying to provide these great creatures to an area of the country where they are far and few between. I spend countless hours of my days feeding, socializing and just ENJOYING them!
also, in any case if the joey were to not sell,I would keep it forever. no exceptions.
Is this bad reasoning?
Am I wrong to allow a pair to breed ( and yes I do know everything necessary) to allow others to enjoy this amazing species that everyone here loves so dearly?
Am I wrong for charging $150? I do spend around $100 per month on food etc. per cage, and my gliders have REGULAR vet checks. The joeys are socialized extensively, I guarantee that there are very few joeys who receive more attention. Do I make a profit? hardly. The money will just go to buying the gliders new things.
Yes I do enjoy the experience of having joeys. Is that wrong? Am I to be considered a "bad" breeder based on the fact that I enjoy watching the joeys develop? It honestly will be a sad decision if the male does eventually need to be neutered for any reason, but I will not hesitate to do so.

I am not trying to sound sarcastic here, I am just a little confused by the standards by which people judge breeders. Not many newbies want rescues. there is nothing wrong with them having joeys from a breeder, often the next step after getting accustomed to their joey is getting rescues. I did this, my first gliders came from breeders and now I have a rescue pair. Can we reasonably expect a person who knows the extra responsibility associated with rescues to forego the instant gratification associated with obtaining a 8 week oop joey? dealing with a pitbull biter or an SM glider is not something most people want much less NEED to do. most people will not tolerate that type of behavior. It is a sad statistic, how many "unwanted" rescues there are. But the same can be said of any species, and until a working NATIONWIDE system of railroads, rescue homes, and adoptive homes is established, the breeding cycle will continue and the rescues will continue to be shunned.

lol this is the longest post I've ever made ya'll! sorry if it steps on any toes, I promise that isnt the intent... my mother does say I can argue with a mile post so take that into your consideration.ha!

You ARE judging me and your full of yourself. Your just here to argue with anyone and everyone like usual. I'm out...

Lets be nice, now. I don't think anyone wakes up and looks for a way to argue with people. This is a very heated topic. Let's conduct this discussion for the purpose of educating others and ourselves. You can't learn from this if you don't consider the opinions of others.

People are very passionate about this because they've seen the result of the overpopulation of gliders and lack of education. Therefore, for the purposes of understanding where they are coming from, I would suggest that everyone who wants to breed visit a rescue. Volunteer there for a month or so. Just clean cages and help socialize gliders so they can go to good homes. Get to know how these people spend their daily lives. Taming a rescue is a lot of work. A good rescuer will do a lot of that for you so that they have a chance of finding a home. If you spend time working with a rescue, and you still want to breed, knowing that you will be the competition that keeps these gliders from finding home, then at least you are doing so in an educated manner.

You have a point about how newbies don't want to start with a rescue. They can be trying. But also consider that not all rescues are wild or ill. I adopted my girls from a rescue. They landed there when their owner became terminally ill and could no longer give them adequate attention. They came to me sweet as pie already. Every rescue has a different story, and often times, it's not one of abuse and neglect.

In that line of reasoning, isn't it kind of selfish to have them at all? You could argue that they are wild animals and we are selfish to try and make pets of them?

This topic keeps popping up every few weeks or months. Why? For the sake of argument and a chance to be rude? I know we all have gliders' happiness at heart and mean well and you have good points that apply to gliders, dogs, cats and have we forgotten children? But this is a free country. If people who own pets would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems. If people who have children would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems in this world either. Can we keep this forum "nice?"

Thank you Melissa, you are correct. A great portion of this topic is a healthy discussion which has been great. There are a few that are walking the line and some that just crossed it. It seems to be the same people every time a debate/discussion comes up, enough is enough. Stop forcing your beliefs on someone else, stop the name calling. If you feel you can't, do not post in these posts. If you continue to post like that, you will find yourself on the other side of the fence where you will not have the option to post anymore. How many times do Admins, mods, and members have to ask for people to stop, it gets old an annoying. Enough is enough already, it will not be tolerated anymore. Thank you for all those who have kept this discussion friendly, it is much appreciated.

Hmm.. I don't think anyone has said anything not nice. I think an intelligent debate on an obviously important subject is worthwhile. There may be people who aren't posting, but may learn some things they didn't know just by following these threads. I spend a lot of time lurking and I have learned a lot that way. We may not always agree, but that doesn't mean an exchange of ideas has to be hurtful.

My earlier post wasn't meant to mean (if taken that way, I apologise). Just musing where we draw the line. There are people arguing it is selfish to breed because you want the joy of raising a joey. There are other people who would argue it is selfish to have exotic pets at all. Of course we all want what's best for our gliders, just wondering where people personally draw that line.