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What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? #424023
11/27/07 01:32 PM
11/27/07 01:32 PM

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svenna
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svenna
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I keep seeing people saying that pellets are bad, even in diets that also provide fresh fruits and veggies. I am putting my gliders on the Suncoast diet and am a little bit concerned with all of the controversy about pellets.

I don't have a blender (or room to store one in my itty bitty kitchen), which makes most of the diets off-limits for me. I could also feed Darcy's diet, which doesn't use pellets.

Could someone please clue me in on why pellets are such an issue?

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424027
11/27/07 01:45 PM
11/27/07 01:45 PM

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Tiasmom1
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wave Hi, I am not sure what all the fuss is about pettet diets either. dunno I tried the hpw diet and my little one didn't like it, so I put her on the Suncoast diet. She loves it. jump She eats all of it every night which is about 1 1/2 to 2tsp. I make sure that she gets her 2:1 ratio in fruits and veggies. I also give her a little extra protien once a week. She is doing great. In fact she is a little fatty now. blush

This is what my friend feeds hers also and they are doing great too. No health issues or anything. I think you just have to decide what works for you and your suggie. glider

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424032
11/27/07 01:49 PM
11/27/07 01:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline
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Trigger  Offline
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Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
If you are using a proven diet off the link here at GC, and Suncoast is one, I would stick to what you are feeding if your babies like it. I feed a BML and all diets get a little bashed and beat up ALL. Every owner has an opinion and usually are partial to the diet they feed unless they start having problems on it.
If your babies like Suncoast I say keep at it, there are others that feed it too.
Another thing you may be getting is hard pellets are bashed alot. I know ZK is soft and as long as you feed them the complete diet not just pellets it should be OK.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
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Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: Trigger] #424035
11/27/07 01:54 PM
11/27/07 01:54 PM

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suggiemom
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suggiemom
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Yea, I think a lot of the issues stem with HARD pelleted food. I mean, gliders are sap eaters. In their natural habitat they mash the foods against the roof of their mouths and extract the liquid from it. It's difficult for them to do with a hard pellet. My personal preference is to feed them soft foods and the occasional treat with something crunchy to keep their teeth clean, etc., but to each his own as long as the gliders are healthy I guess.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424040
11/27/07 02:04 PM
11/27/07 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
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GliderLove  Offline
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I agree, all diets will have a basher some where along the lines. I have used Brisky's pellets for 10 years and never had a problem, so from my experience I can not say a hard pellet is bad since I have had zero issues with it.


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: GliderLove] #424060
11/27/07 02:31 PM
11/27/07 02:31 PM

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Laura_Leigh
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One of the major problems with pellets is the potential to produce mold... If stored properly, then you can reduce the problem, but never really stop it. Aflatoxin is a major issue with pellets due to the grain used in them.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424066
11/27/07 02:36 PM
11/27/07 02:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
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That I do agree with, I keep mine in the freezer.


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: GliderLove] #424109
11/27/07 04:11 PM
11/27/07 04:11 PM

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suggiemom
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suggiemom
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Let me ask a question just for my own curiosity and it's NOT intended to argue, etc., but why do people choose a hard pellet for their gliders when other diets (and, I don't feed mine a "popular" diet either) are softer and probably much tastier for them? Is it just because it's easier? Cuz, you know with several cages of gliders, it WOULD be much easier for me to feed something like that, but I would so feel like I was cheating them out of their yummies!

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424128
11/27/07 04:44 PM
11/27/07 04:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
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I don't think your question would start an argument..lol It's a reasonable question.

When I got my first glider as far as I researched Brisky's was the first glider staple pellet. My gliders liked it, and they basically only "snack" on it if they get up thru out the day. I thought it was decent nuitionally and went well with the diet I feed. It's also what my mentor had used and had very old gliders 17 being the oldest. So I personally felt that if it wasn't broke why fix it. And that's why I never changed. If I had any issues from it I would look into other staples out there, and honestly I think ZKS would be the one I would go with if I were to switch. smile


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: GliderLove] #424136
11/27/07 05:00 PM
11/27/07 05:00 PM

S
suggiemom
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suggiemom
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ZKS is the moist pellet, correct? I got some of that with a rescue I took in, but my gliders didn't much care for it and well, it STUNK but my cat sure loved it....LOL

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424138
11/27/07 05:06 PM
11/27/07 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
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SE Minnesota..
Yeah..it's the softer one. I heard to did smell bad lol I'm sure that cat's would think that's tasty! My cats eat the brisky's that get thrown out during the day. What pellet do you use?


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: GliderLove] #424140
11/27/07 05:10 PM
11/27/07 05:10 PM

S
suggiemom
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suggiemom
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I don't use any pellets now. I feed a modified version of BML.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424163
11/27/07 05:49 PM
11/27/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 563
Lynchburg, VA
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blockamon Offline
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Lynchburg, VA
IMO, the only convincing reason to NOT feed mainly pellet food is variety/enjoyment of the gliders. Quality pellet diets (note, not all of the ones out there are good) are far more nutritionally balanced than most people give them credit for. I personally stick to Mazuri and Reliable Protein Products, since they manufacture and market mostly to zoos. Other manufacturers (i.e., Briskey's and Pretty Pets Happy Glider) may also be OK, but I have no experience with them.

True, storage has to be considered. However, to me this isn't much different than making sure the fresh foods aren't spoiled or that the HPW/BML ingredients aren't bad.

I started using the Dr. Johnson-Delany diet (basically 1/2 Leadbeater's Mix and 1/2 Zookeeper's Secret with some treats) but changed because my gliders didn't like the Zookeeper's much.

I still use Mazuri New World Primate as part of their diet. They like the taste, and it helps with oral hygiene.

I'm thinking of trying the Happy Glider (either chicken or breeder) because of the higer protein content, but I'm looking for feedback from current users first.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: blockamon] #424358
11/27/07 11:42 PM
11/27/07 11:42 PM

S
svenna
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svenna
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A few questions:

Tiasmom mentioned a 2:1 ratio. What is that? Like, 2 fruits to 1 vegetable?

I saw the Brisky's diet pellets but was sort of confused by it. Is that -all- that the gliders get, or are they also given fresh food?

What is aflatoxin?

With the ZKS, wouldn't freezing it make it hard and thus defeat the purpose of it being soft? I currently keep it in a big plastic ziploc bag (that's how it was given to me by their previous ownder). Should I be storing it differently?

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424363
11/27/07 11:47 PM
11/27/07 11:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
2:1 refers to the calcium to phosphorus ratio that we try to aim for. We roughly want to give our gliders 2 parts calcium to every one part phosphorus.

Aflatoxin - this toxin can come from mold and can kill a glider. As you've seen in this thread, it can be in pelleted food, and many people are wary of feeding crickets because they are often kept on corncob bedding (which is a very likely place for aflatoxins to occur). It can happen with other bugs as well (it binds to their DNA and affects the glider that eats it).

I'm not sure about the specifics of freezing ZKS, but I would at least keep it in the fridge.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: glidergrl1513] #424402
11/28/07 12:58 AM
11/28/07 12:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
cinnamonstix Offline
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Twin Cities, MN
Ok...referring to the "hard pellets" noted above...I do use Briskys as my staple...but don't gliders chew bark...to get to the sap to suck from the trees in wthe wild? If that is the case...then I really do not see why a "hard pellet" would necessarily be bad...as they do chew on the trees in the wild whick are...hard. Given they are not getting any sap from the pellet, but I do not see how it would harm them to chew a hard pellet so long as that is not ALL they are fed and they are on a balanced diet. Feel free to explain why this is bad. I am very curious.


~GWEN~
Crazy Hubby Dru
Tortoise: Vork
Cats: Scooby, Swiper, Zero, Dinah & Sykes
Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Rei, Rafiki & Rajah; Opal, Lily & Link; Tael, Tatl & Navi; Kristoff Krabbs & Crabby Patty
:rbridge: Fern, Cjarsa, Syfka, Icarus, Ivy, Howie & Gracie

www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com
Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: cinnamonstix] #424564
11/28/07 12:21 PM
11/28/07 12:21 PM

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suggiemom
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suggiemom
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S



Cinnamonstix, no one said it was BAD, simply asking why one would choose to feed a hard food over other softer foods. Yes, they rip the bark away to GET TO the sap, but as far as I know, they don't chew on the bark or eat the bark. I could be wrong though. I know to get to the sap they have to strip the bark from the trees.....

As for Mizuri (sp?) primate food....why would I feed primate food to a marsupial? That doesn't make sense to me. When I got my first glider he was being fed ferret food, that didn't make sense to me either since he's not a ferret....

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424586
11/28/07 01:05 PM
11/28/07 01:05 PM

N
Nari
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Nari
Unregistered
N



For Gwen... when sugar gliders remove tree bark they are using their incisors (front teeth) to do this. These teeth are used to gouge holes and strip bark, but not for chewing. The teeth for chewing are found in the back part of their mouth and aren't meant for grinding up plant material (I should clarify this point...they do pulp fruits. They chew the material until it becomes a pulp and then suck the juices from it.) or anything like a hard pellet. Also you should consider the digestive system itself. I have not researched this myself, but I speculate that a digestive system built for processing saps and gums is not going to be able to easily process something like a hard pellet. They may not be able to extract the nutrients in time. Or if the food has not been ground up enough initially, they may not be able to access the nutrients from it.

Again, I agree with what's been said about a hard vs. softer pellet. Softer is going to be better.

Last edited by Nari; 11/28/07 01:11 PM. Reason: added clarification
Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424616
11/28/07 01:34 PM
11/28/07 01:34 PM

S
suggiemom
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suggiemom
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S



Nari, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't thik about them not being able to process the nutrients properly, etc. I think nature is pretty miraculous in designing animals to adapt to their surroundings and to eat the foods they know are right for them, etc., and I think it's way too easy for us humans to decide that we'd like something easier or not as messy or whatever.

I don't like ANY of the diets out there personally, but we do the best we can right? We can't replicate their natural diet efficiently here in the U.S. so they get stuck with whatever we decide to feed them.

I wish they'd all just been left alone in their natural habitat and we never had to have these conversations, but it's too late for that now.....

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424628
11/28/07 01:58 PM
11/28/07 01:58 PM

S
SandSmammas
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SandSmammas
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S



I am awaiting the arrival of my ZKS. It says on the website that it doesn't have to be put in the fridge. Does everyone recommend that it does? Now I am worried about mold. I am currently keeping their food in the cabniet in a dark, cool place. Any advice?

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424651
11/28/07 02:17 PM
11/28/07 02:17 PM

S
suggiemom
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suggiemom
Unregistered
S



You should try to pm lauraleigh....she's dealt with the mold issues a lot and done a ton of research on it after losing several of her gliders to it. She's been able to get the "jorn act" passed, and gotten manufacturers of packaged food items to change their labels regarding storage, etc. Even yoggies can get mold and cause issues. ANY kind of mold in the mealies, crickets, packaged foods, etc. can cause problems.


Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424669
11/28/07 02:45 PM
11/28/07 02:45 PM

N
Nari
Unregistered
Nari
Unregistered
N



I think we as humans take it for granted that we can eat just about anything. We have really generalized digestive systems which is convenient for us. But there are a lot of other animals out there that are not like us at all in this respect. Ferrets for example have extremely short digestive tracts. When they were first domesticated, a lot of them died because they were being fed things like bread and milk. Even though the ferrets could eat it and seemed to like it, they weren't able to get any nutrients from it before it passed out of their system. It wasn't until later on that people learned this. That's why if you own a ferret, it's imperitive that you feed it a food intended for ferrets. Unfortunately, we don't have a perfect diet for gliders. But I think we're all doing our best to try and provide what we can for them. But we should keep in mind their physiology and what they would eat naturally.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #424971
11/28/07 10:08 PM
11/28/07 10:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 563
Lynchburg, VA
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blockamon Offline
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blockamon  Offline
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Posts: 563
Lynchburg, VA
Keep in mind please that the idea about gliders not being able to digest hard pellets is just speculation...not fact.

The fact that some owners have fed primarily pellets for years (i.e., Briskey's) tends to refute that idea.

As for using primate food for sugar gliders, I don't use it exclusively by any means, only a little bit. The ingredients really aren't that different than other glider foods. I'd prefer to use the Mazuri Insectivore diet if they only made the pellets a little bigger.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: blockamon] #425095
11/29/07 12:49 AM
11/29/07 12:49 AM

N
Nari
Unregistered
Nari
Unregistered
N



I did say that I speculate that a pellet may not be easily digested. I haven't seen any research on it either way. It seems gliders have been surviving on a variety of diets in captivity.

These thoughts are just what make sense to me in regards to "what's wrong with diets that involve pellets".

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #425112
11/29/07 12:57 AM
11/29/07 12:57 AM

7
7glider7
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7glider7
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Originally Posted By: suggiemom
Let me ask a question just for my own curiosity and it's NOT intended to argue, etc., but why do people choose a hard pellet for their gliders when other diets (and, I don't feed mine a "popular" diet either) are softer and probably much tastier for them? Is it just because it's easier? Cuz, you know with several cages of gliders, it WOULD be much easier for me to feed something like that, but I would so feel like I was cheating them out of their yummies!


I am switching to pellets because my vet feels my gliders need more protein, and some of the pellets out there are an excellent source.

While everyone has a great point about gliders being sap-suckers, remember that they also eat a lot of insects for certain parts of the year, many of which certainly have chitinous exoskeletons. While some gliders spit those out, mine eat the WHOLE THING...and I have never seen any digestion problems. If they can pass chitin, I don't think that pellets would necessarily cause a problem. Of course, passing and digesting are two separate things. But I trust my vet...as long as my gliders will eat it!!!

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #425167
11/29/07 02:10 AM
11/29/07 02:10 AM

S
svenna
Unregistered
svenna
Unregistered
S



Wait... so crickets, mealworms, and pretty much everything can contain the toxins, what do you feed for the fresh insects? I buy the crickets and mealworms in the can that has a green lid. Would freeze-dried bugs be safer?

Also, I have heard that oats are also recommended as the staple for the Suncoast diet. Do oats usually contain aflatoxin? If I were to give them oats, it would be the kind made for human consumption.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #425173
11/29/07 02:18 AM
11/29/07 02:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
cinnamonstix Offline
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Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
Crickets are at a high risk of containing aflotoxin. Mealworms are not as high. Anything can contain it really...even staple pellets. It is important that use use only fresh products and if suspect any mold...throw it ASAP. If you are farming mealies and get mold...the whold farm is to be thrown. As long as you use fresh products and store it correctly...you should be ok.


~GWEN~
Crazy Hubby Dru
Tortoise: Vork
Cats: Scooby, Swiper, Zero, Dinah & Sykes
Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Rei, Rafiki & Rajah; Opal, Lily & Link; Tael, Tatl & Navi; Kristoff Krabbs & Crabby Patty
:rbridge: Fern, Cjarsa, Syfka, Icarus, Ivy, Howie & Gracie

www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com
Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: cinnamonstix] #425184
11/29/07 02:32 AM
11/29/07 02:32 AM

7
7glider7
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7glider7
Unregistered
7



Frozen or canned bugs are not any safer.

Really just about anything that can become moldy could be contaminated with aflatoxins...veggies, bugs, you name it.

Personally, I have never understood why crickets would be higher aflatoxin risk than mealies. If their bedding is moldy, it's moldy...it seems like either bug could be contaminated.

As long as you get the bugs from a reliable source and keep the bedding clean you should be fine.

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: ] #425200
11/29/07 03:31 AM
11/29/07 03:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,493
Missouri
tammyangel Offline
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tammyangel  Offline
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Posts: 2,493
Missouri
I use pellets with my gliders and have never had a single problem When I got the pellets I was told to put them in the freezer to keep them fresh and I have never had a single sick glider in the time Ive had mine my gliders are also on bml diet .But the pellets are there for them like some my gliders get up through out the day for a snack and a drink of water but do not eat pellets alone.


Having Faith and Hope that some day soon.That all the world will come to see that all of gods babies deserve love and affection.

gangel My little three precious angels :rbridge:


http://suggieshack.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=login

Mom to some really spoiled little ones.

:rtmo:
:leu:
:grey:


Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? [Re: tammyangel] #425207
11/29/07 07:23 AM
11/29/07 07:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
Jen, it's usually because of the type of bedding they are kept on. A lot of pet supply stores keep their crickets on corn cob bedding (whereas mealies are kept on plain newspaper, wood shavings, or oatmeal) and the corn is more likely to mold quickly.

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