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.....Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich

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[:"blue"]I see an awful lot of talk about birds; but not much about gliders??? [/]




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...Randy - If a person cannot come up with aprox $40 to get excellent information & to learn about their exotic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diet requirements & would rather listen to people claiming that published researchers such as Brian Rich & Ian Hume's work is junk science, than they sure are not going to progress learning about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets...

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[:"blue"] Pockets: I have a B.A. in science and have to work pretty hard to understand the nutritional information that I run across. One very critical point you seem to overlooked is that a lot of the GC members that you are talking to are HS/college kids who would be severely challenged to figure out how many ounces a 100 gram glider weighs. Even assuming that everyone is ready willing and able to spend somewhere between $70 and $140 for the book(according to Amazon.com), most of these folks do not have the educational back ground to get much useful information out of an advanced text like Hume's book. [/]



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...Should we listen more to Charlie & Randy's proper diet info or more to the published researchers such as Ian Hume & Brian Rich (just to name a couple) -hummmm...

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[:"blue"] I think if you go back through this thread, you will find that I did not offer any diet info.....just asked a few questions to better understand about PML and pointed out a couple of pieces of inaccurate information that were posted by various folks!! And if we are going to get technical here, I don't see that either Ian Hume or Brian Rich has offered his stamp of approval to the partial diet that Pockets is using???[/]


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...Both Charlie & yourself claim that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research info is not out there - why don't you two spend a little more time looking & less time being so critical of others research...

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[:"blue"] About three years ago I started a little project that I posted on GC about. Fired up a couple of couple of Internet search engines and located every Internet site I could find having to do with gliders....I'm sure I missed some information; but I found something on the order of 1700 US sites, several hundred European sites, a hundred or so Asian/Pacific sites and a handful from South America. Over a period of 6 or 8 months, I visited every one of those sites and learned a great deal about our little furbuttz.
For Pockets to suggest that I need to spend more time researching gliders is probably a suggestion that she would like to have back. Additionally, the claim is continually made that there is a lot of research out there.......funny that with all of this research, that only one book is ever mentioned....Hume's book??? To me, lots of research suggests that there are 10...15...maybe 20 books out there on gliders?? If there is so much research out there how about sharing some of it with us poor folks who are not fortunate enough to have access to it?? I don't mind getting hammered when I screw up or do something stupid.....but I sure don't like getting accused of things I'm not guilty of and that's what's happening here. [/]

[:"blue"] I guess this is not much of a surprise to folks on GC; but apparently I have an entirely different philosophy about posting on GC than most. When I make a post, I want people to reply, I want people to ask questions and I want people to point out mistakes or concerns if they have any. When people respond to you it means they have given some thought to what you have said and it has had enough of an impact to elicit a response. There is nothing I hate more than making a post and getting no response whatsoever. When somebody disagrees with something I have to say, I don't take it personally.....unless it is personal, which happens on occasion.....I just take it as an honest difference of opinion. I defend my opinion as best I can or or change it if there is a strong argument that a change is necessary. I'm not crazy about people pointing out my mistakes; but would rather have that than let a mistake stand and mislead or confuse other members of GC. In my opinion, too many people wear their hearts on their sleeve and are more worried about getting their feelings hurt than they are about the substantive discussion and exchange of information. If we were discussing these issues in a high school or college classroom, I doubt that too many instructors would be moved by the argument that "someones got their feelings hurt."

OK....I'm done....take your best shot!!! [/]

Randy I'm suprised that you don't refer to or ever seem to include Australian marsupial info. Much of the info from the US veterinarians, if you listen, is taken from the exact books & sources I refer to. A few of the educated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> vets do & have visited Australia - searching out info, isn't that strange! Imagine going to Australian sources for info.

Randy the Wombaroo product I have been speaking of is used as the protein supplement in the PML (as Peggy so kindly stated)- which is a modified Leadbeaters' mix, & Bourbon herself has clearly stated, that high protein cereal has not been available in the USA - this product has been used in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> diets for many years in Australia - hardly a fad diet sham!

To even insinuate I am out here to harm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s is ridiculous!

I only wished to share this Australian product with a few, you certainly are not required to use it.
I don't understand why you guys would feel the the need to slam this product, my info & sources as junk science - makes absolutely no sense to me!

I'm done stirring up the board now & will have a web-site down-line soon, for those who are open-minded & wish to look at other diet options.

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">I see an awful lot of talk about birds; but not much about gliders???

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Randy, why don't you look a little deeper than the first page? There are many pages of info relating to the numerous products they have developed.

I believe Pockets intention was to display the lengths gone to create the Wombaroo supplements as well as the history behind them.

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I guess this is not much of a surprise to folks on GC; but apparently I have an entirely different philosophy about posting on GC than most. When I make a post, I want people to reply, I want people to ask questions and I want people to point out mistakes or concerns if they have any. When people respond to you it means they have given some thought to what you have said and it has had enough of an impact to elicit a response. There is nothing I hate more than making a post and getting no response whatsoever. When somebody disagrees with something I have to say, I don't take it personally.....unless it is personal, which happens on occasion.....I just take it as an honest difference of opinion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This philosophy sounds nice and positive when spoken of here, but why are people getting offended and perturbed? A line of questioning need not be condescending nor rude to achieve results. I think being tactless and unfriendly certainly has it's disadvantages. I don't think it's any huge mystery why a number of people are bothered?

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In my opinion, too many people wear their hearts on their sleeve and are more worried about getting their feelings hurt than they are about the substantive discussion and exchange of information.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Wearing your heart on your sleeve or being consistently and outrightly rude to "achieve results", which is worse? I suppose neither is more or less conducive to a productive debate....

Although one claims that he's just looking for the truth, the route of trying to make one someone look like an idiot is often taken. This perception is not unfounded. I may be wearing my heart on my sleeve.... but I think that my feelings are justified on the issue, and many others will agree with me.

It is possible treat someone like you're working on the same goal, keep things friendly, and still rigorously question their information. Problem is, people don't seem to take that approach all too often, they'd rather stand from the other side of the fence and throw rocks and wonder why people get bothered......

This topic is not being debated for no reason, obviously people want to see a different attitude, some people need to accept responsibility for their methods rather than continue to defend them and act like everyone else is the problem!

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the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.


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Does this mean we need to focus on Indonesia and New Guinea? Those are the places most of the imported gliders have come from in the past few years.

Big Ern you shouldn't be jumping on Randy for asking a civil question that needs to be answered. It seems to me that the ones coming up with the idea of introducing certain items to the gliders diet are the ones that become upset most. If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.
Charlie H

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.


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Does this mean we need to focus on Indonesia and New Guinea? Those are the places most of the imported gliders have come from in the past few years.

If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.

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To answer your question: Yes, by all means Charlie, please take the initiative Pockets has taken & contact specialists in other countries where gliders live in the wild, including Indonesia & New Guinea. I would love to hear your findings! In fact, I happen to know that glider diets differ between most of Australia & these 2 regions including the Northern Territory of Australia, as I have been researching other regions. I happen to know that insects are more prevalent in the latter regions, increasing glider's protien intake & eliminating breeding season (the gliders can breed year long as in captivity). Just a bit of trivia for ya!

And what is wrong with trying to mimic a wild glider's diet? Isn't it logical to try to match, as closely as possible, the foods they might eat in their natural habitat? Nature has a reason for everything! There's a reason that peas and carrots don't grow in the Eucalypt forests of Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania. Of course gliders aren't native to Tasmania, they were introduced - but you knew that. If you want an example and not just my word that I've read it - go to your local library reference section & take a look at Grzimek's Encyclopedia Mammals Vol. 1 (MacGraw-Hill). It lists the diet of a Sugar Glider as: Nectar, Pollen, Tree Sap, and Insects. Walker's Mammals of the World lists: Sap, Blossoms, Nectar, Insects and their Larvae, Arachnids, and Small Invertabrates. I could keep going if you like, but I can tell you it would take days. However, you don't seem to want references from the folks that want you to feed apples, yogurt, papaya, mango, green beans, or countless other item not found on any list in any book I've read.

Obviously there are a lot of people that believe Pockets has plenty of adequate answers.

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Big Ern you shouldn't be jumping on Randy for asking a civil question that needs to be answered. It seems to me that the ones coming up with the idea of introducing certain items to the gliders diet are the ones that become upset most. If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use. And the standard answers like because it is a part of the wild gliders diet, or that is what our favorite author recommends, or that is the way they do it in the Australian zoo are not adequate answers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">Should I say, "because Charlie and Randy can't find anything wrong with it?" Would that suffice?
I'm not really sure that anyone can tell me if my gliders came from New Guinea or Indonesia or Australia. What if they did descend from a line of Australian gliders? There is no way of establishing either way. Evidence has not been provided that the difference in habitat and origin has led to the development of specific digestive adaptations unique to a given region and the food provided by it.

I'm totally fine with the questions, I've made that abundantly clear. I like to answer good questions placed with positive and productive intentions of fostering a civil and friendly debate.
It's how they are asked and the tact and wording that the questions are placed with. That's what I have a problem with....
These diet discussions usually start out peaceful and productive until certain people have to enter with their attitudes, and then things just go downhill..... We've seen it instigated time and time again.

Like I said, when people bring up new ideas, they are made to feel like someone is standing on the other side of the fence hurling rocks at them. Wouldn't it make sense to treat them as if you are on the same team working for the same goal? I don't see that approach taken by certain people very often and then you wonder why I get frustrated and end up sounding like I do now?

I've seen information posted by Doctors, veterinarians, Zookeepers, people that have done extensive research on marsupials, and gliders. But all I hear is,
"That's not adequate"
"Most vets don't know anything about gliders anyways"
"So they wrote a book, so what?"
"that's not specific enough to gliders"
"that's not proven"
"our gliders aren't even from there anyways"

There is a healthy level of skepticism, and there is a ridiculous level of skepticism.....

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If we question the motives for including things like bee pollen, acacia gum, and Wombaroo milk into a gliders diet all we are looking for is the logic behind the suggested use

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Can you tell me why I shouldn't consider using such items? Just because one doesn't know what the ultimate outcome is and because one hasn't dug deeper than the surface to find the answer to the things that so much time has been spent "rigorously questioning" doesn't mean that everyone else is consequently incorrect because of one's personal lack of information and research. I don't recall any information being presented as proof that any of these items are detrimental to a gliders health other than one's lack of knowledge. If you could point me to any information pertaining to the safety or dangers of feeding acacia gum, wombaroo high protein(not the milk replacer!), and bee pollen, please do produce it and let us see!

I want to see someone provide me the story of a rescue that was fed bee pollen and acacia gum as part of a balanced diet and consequently had to be rehabilitated on BML.

There is no validity in using the stories of rescues that are taken in as proof that ALL dietary experimentation is harmful. Most if not all of the rescues taken in are not from people who have access to the internet to research and think for themselves. These rescues are likely from the people who have bought their gliders at a flea market too early from a mass breeder who told them to feed their glider bird seed and fruits so that they would buy the glider thinking that it is an easy and cute pet to take care of...

I personally have presented much info on both pollen and acacia gum, and I haven't been given much reason to believe that the most staunchly skeptical have even taken the time out of their day to read it! Barely anyone elaborates on the information presented, except to tell me what it is missing, not what it means. All I hear is we don't know, we don't know, we don't know. We don't even know what the outcome of feeding BML for more than a few years is! While the lifespan of a glider in captivity is rumored to be about 12 years or so, as far as I know, BML has not been around that long. In my opinion, there is no path more truly proven than that of mother nature, so I chose to implement her ideas as well as I can. I find it odd that one will staunchly support feeding items that a glider would never ever see in it's lifetime in the wild on any continent in any habitat anyhow, but then criticize the use of something that a number of gliders in a number of different habitats eat and have eaten for millenia that is supprted by information and texts written by DOCTORS who have observed actual gliders in the wild and their feeding habits, and then proceed to call the idea NEW! HA! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

This thread is heading the wrong way, starting to get to far on the abusive side. We have been trying hard to keep these threads going and several posts have been edited, but the flamming is starting to get more persistent and out of hand. We all know the rules here at GC. If this thread continues on the path its going, it will be locked and removed!!!

Ok, just to throw in a little something here. I have no idea where my line of gliders originated but I do know the gliders in my house right now were all born in the US. What difference is that going to make?

How long should a diet be fed to gliders to earn a stamp of approval? 1st generation? 2nd? 3rd? I am currently on my third generation on my diet but he is still under a year old. At which point would my diet become proven? Would it only be proven IF some "experts" researched it and broke it down to its components and analyzed the nutrient in it? Or would it become proven IF my third generation lives past 12 years old?

I am not trying to be a smart aleck but well, honestly, how "proven" are the other diets? What earned them the "proven" title?

Also, I would like to point out that Moderators are all members first, moderators second. We were asked to be moderators because of our involvement in GC. I will gladly turn in my title of Moderator if my comments and questions bother other members. I only ask that all members keep in mind that I am a member first and am entitled to make posts like everyone else, within the rules of membership of GC.

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I'm not really sure that anyone can tell me if my gliders came from New Guinea or Indonesia or Australia. What if they did descend from a line of Australian gliders? There is no way of establishing either way. Evidence has not been provided that the difference in habitat and origin has led to the development of specific digestive adaptations unique to a given region and the food provided by it.

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Good going, Ern! As I mentioned in a previous thread, Pockets also mentioned to me that our gliders likely came from populations of gliders imported from all over as opposed to only Indonesia and New Guinea, both legally and illegally. Thus, even if gliders did adapt to the specific flora and fauna of specific regions, the genes would have certainly mixed and made for some sort of broadening of acceptable nutrient amount thresholds.

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I am not trying to be a smart aleck but well, honestly, how "proven" are the other diets? What earned them the "proven" title?

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I'm suddenly reminded of back when I was still a newbie on the board and I had just registered, and I got slammed for bringing this up. It's great to see that there is an understanding of terms. Great post, Dancing! I agree.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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Yes research shows that captive 's diets should be changed seasonally!

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OMG I had a feeling that was the case with seasonally changing captive diets! Last time I brought that up when I first joined I started a huge diet war that was quite traumatic for me! LOL.

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Additionally, the claim is continually made that there is a lot of research out there.......funny that with all of this research, that only one book is ever mentioned....Hume's book??? To me, lots of research suggests that there are 10...15...maybe 20 books out there on gliders??

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I just wanted to add quickly that in Marsupial Nutrition alone there exactly 50 pages of external scientific references, reports, and studies in the reference index.

Although Ian Humes' publication may still be rather complex, I'm almost certain it's one of the more simpler and user-friendly scientific papers, and it peices together information found from other studies in a manner that makes for relatively easy reading. I'd bet most of the scientific references that are used in Ian Humes' publication are rather intensive, complicated (I bet most would still be in SCIENETIFIC METHOD format), and/or are not readily available/accessible to the public (like Marsupial Nutrition is), for instance only presently being found in select university library archives in Australia (or with Pockets! LOL.).

This would explain why the publications of Ian Humes and those of others like him, would naturally be brought up more than other references, simply for the purposes of us normal folk.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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I just wanted to add quickly that in Marsupial Nutrition alone there exactly 50 pages of external scientific references, reports, and studies in the reference index.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Isn't that insane!? 50 pages of just references, lol, I hate citing references, I couldn't imagine that many....

I too wonder what garnered the stamp of "proven" for a diet? What diet(s) are "proven"?
What will it take?

I've got 4th generation joeys coming raised on my diet. The parents have been raised on it, their grandparents on the mothers side were raised on it, and great grandparents on the grandpa's side were fed it for the last year and a half+ Does that at least take it out of the "fad diet" category, lol...

Ern if you are serious about having your sugar glider diet considered as an approved diet you should write it up in a professional manner and present it to some of the leading professionals in exotic nutrition. For instance Dr. Kathy Johnson Delaney, Dr. Diernfield or even Dr. Hume. Or maybe try the nutritionists at some of the major zoos. If you can get even one of them to approve it you have made a giant step. I am afraid getting the approval of only local exotic vets would not impress most glider owners.

Once you have the approval of one of the above you will need to get other glider owners outside your colony to use the diet. After a couple of years you can secure endorsements from other experienced glider owners about the success of your diet and you are well on your way to having an approved diet.

I realize it is a hassle and time consuming but I think if you follow my suggestions your diet will gain creditability.
Good luck in your venture.
Charlie H

Thanks for the suggestions Charlie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />