Judy, I made up the name dilute creamino. I have albino, creamino and what I call dilute creaminos. The dilute creaminos have more color than an albino, which are pure white, and less color than a full creamino. Here are some examples:

Albino
(Pure white with ruby eyes)

Creamino (Beige body color with dark stripe and tail tip and burgandy eyes)

Dilute Creamino (White body color, faint stripe and tail color, burgandy eyes)

Stacie , wow i can see the difference between the creamio and dilute creamio..thanks foe showing us

Also notice the difference in the eye color between Victor, an albino and one of his dilute creamino offspring:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v257/jolley1s/Albino/?action=view&current=DSC01039.jpg

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v257/jolley1s/Albino/?action=view&current=DSC01044.jpg

If she'd had the joeys the other way around(creminos first) then would you think that the albino gene was stronger?

A glider's genetic make-up doesn't change. Just because she had 2 albinos and then 2 creminos doesn't make her incapable of having more albinos. That's a pretty silly theory, lol.

yes, i do see the difference in the eye color..Victor is an Albino right? he has pink eyes and the dilute creamio has darker eyes..

Creme-ino does seem to be stronger over albino, for example how victor is only really throwing creme-ino. Why not Albino if he is Albino and the females are 100% het for Albino. I think that does show that Albino is stronger.

Silly theory yes, but I believe something triggers the creme-ino gene or something. I believe Sheila would continue to get only creme-inos from that pair if snowflake was being retired.

Tyler, I'm going to have to agree with Nicole. Gene's don't magically morph. If your theory was right, wouldn't Dimples be a cremino het since he was born after Victor? and Victor carries the cremino gene while Dimples doesn't. For your theory to hold true, Dimples would have to be a Cremino het.

In reality, her producing 2 albinos and then 2 creminos is much like a pair of 100% leu hets/100% albino hets producing 2 leus, then 2 albinos. They didn't magically switch from leu hets to albino hets. It's just that the genes lines up right one time to create leus and the next time to create albinos. They would still be able to produce leus though.

I guess what I am trying to say is you have the creme-ino gene, and the albino gene. Something triggers the gene to like turn on basically. I know what i am thinking, but not sure how to word it to make sense.

Dimples may infact be a cr. het. Smilesa I would say definately is not a het since nothing happened when he was with a creme-ino.

Tyler, she had Victor first who was double het, then dimples - only albino T- (I believe) then the two creminos, then she quit breeding. One of the creminos looks like Susan's and the other does not. In one year and four months she had four albinos - two t+ and 2 t-. Everyone needs to go back to the definition of T+. Everyone keeps referring to snake breeding. Here are some pieces of it that I find interesting:
The T stands for Tyrosinase, an enzyme needed for the production of melanin. It catalyzes the first two steps in the production of melanin. In step one the amino acid "tyrosine" is turned into a compound called "dopa". Step two turns "dopa" into "dopaquinone". The dopaquinone then goes through a multi-step process to produce melanin. The T- albino, not having Tyrosinase can't initiate the first two steps toward the production of melanin.
T+ or caramel albino creates Tyrosinase and therefore starts the first two steps in the production of melanin. After that the process breaks down for lack of an enzyme. Each step in the dopaquinone multi-step to melanin process requires a different enzyme but which enzyme is lacking is not known. It's been discovered that dopaquinone is also a precursor in the production of other pigments as well.T+ or caramel albino creates Tyrosinase and therefore starts the first two steps in the production of melanin. After that the process breaks down for lack of an enzyme. Each step in the dopaquinone multi-step to melanin process requires a different enzyme but which enzyme is lacking is not known. It's been discovered that dopaquinone is also a precursor in the production of other pigments as well.

The thing is this, T+ is not a morph, it's not a look, it's not a color. You can't visually look at an animal and say, "Yep, that's a T+ albino!" T+ /T- is presense or absence of an enzyme that is one step in the long process of producing melanin. If tyrosinase is not present, the animal is amelanistic, no question. All T-'s are amel, but not all amels are T-. You can have an animal that makes normal tyrosinase (is T+ ) but has a problem somewhere else in the cascade (lack of some other enzyme or an alteration in a building block or whatever)and yet ends up looking visually identical to a T- albino.

Since you have to have tyrosinase to make melanin, period, all hypomelanistic animals are "T+ ". So the half of the people saying your snake was T+ are most likely right (although they don't know either, for sure, since no one has done a DOPA test on these snakes to prove if they have tyrosinase). The half saying your gliders are hypomelanistic are also right. It IS. There is melanin there, very little, but it's there. The pupil is black, the faint black markings are visible, not totally absent, melanin is there. It's just markedly reduced by some process.


You saying it's a different line than the hypos tells me that you guys are dealing with 2 different versions of hypomelanism... If they don't breed true, then they are different genes that produce similar effects. If one is lighter than the other, then you have one gene that has a bit more of an effect than the other. I'd also be willing to bet that if you produced an animal homozygous for both forms of hypo that the result would be additive and you'd make an animal lighter than each individual hypo gene alone, but that's a guess. (It could just as easily be that the double morph version looks just like one or the other.)

If you want to call it a T+ albino, great. The other one is, too, most likely. Neither is "THE" T+ albino. That is why I think the term is useless, unless you are defining 2 types of amel, one that has tyrosinase and one that doesn't.

Call them hypo A or hypo B, call them "so and so's" hypo and "another's" hypo, call them "Lemon" and "Banana", call them "Hypo" and "T+", it's all the same. They are two genes that cause reduction of melanin, but not complete absence.

I do believe when you have a T+ albino, the amount of melanin can vary which you will see more color in some, less than others.

Stacie I do agree with you. I think albinos are more rare. I think that you have to have two cremino hets to produce a cremino. I think that when Victor (Ceaser) is bred to FFR line, you will get one or the other Cremino colors. The one that has more color and darker eyes and the one that has a lighter color and brighter eyes (almost red). When the glider has more color, it has darker eyes. This would tell me that that glider has more melanin (or pigment) might look different than one that has less. I think it is the same gene, just one produces more pigment, just as a light skinned person does not have as much pigment as a dark skinned person.

Thank you for all the info Sheila!

The albino gene and the patternless/white gene are two completely different gene sites (i.e. different numbers on the DNA strand). Normal or albino. That's it; that's your choices on whether you get normal or albino...that's your gene pool. The other colors all come from the same place, which is not the same as where the albino one comes from. If you pair an albino with any glider that is NOT albino, it only has a 2 in 4 chance of being albino ONLY if the mate carries the recessive albino gene. If the mate does not carry the recessive albino gene, 0% chance of albinism. Now, once you get past that, then you look at the color pairings, and figure out the colorings. You are looking at 2 sets of 2 hereditary factors from each parent; not just 1 set of 2; THAT IS WHY AN ALBINO CAN PRODUCE THE NORMAL COLOR BABIES OR ANY VARIATION!!!! (No, I wasn't yelling; just trying to say that if you get to the bottom of the long paragraph you will see there is an answer).

Albinism is NOT a "color." It is a hereditary condition that is unhealthy and can affect many other parts of the body: liver, kidneys, eyesight and much more. Some can't even reproduce.

It shouldn't be bred. It's a disservice to the breed, and any breed, really. It will carry a lifetime of problems to pass down. Please research albinism and all the other things NOT PRODUCED besides color before breeding them.

I will spare everyone the inbreeding talk of pairing other recessive traits (including leus), but please spend more time understanding the science of DNA before trying to produce for "color." It's easy to produce for color; not easy to take care of the inbreeding problems that go along with it.

Yes, your baby is beautiful. I hope she stays healthy; take special precautions!

You guys are so silly...

Albino is not a color of a glider it is a genetic condition.

Tyrosinase neg albinos produce absolutely no pigment, they are known as true/complete albinos = OculaCutaneousAlbinism type 1A (OCA1A).

Can't have a tyrosinase neg Creamino or Lue, not possible, they have some pigment. And this isn't something that can be turned on or off, its all about how many copies you get from your parents that affects what is expressed or isn't expressed.

Tyrosinase pos albinos produce varying amounts of pigment (pale creme to creme to biscuit color to pale brown) depending on where the mutation occurs on the tyrosinase gene, they are known as classic/partial albino = OCA1. They are a result of errors on the C gene (Tyrosinase gene).

Further, there are other types of albinism such as OCA2, OCA3, etc. There are several more steps in the pigment production process. Depending on where the error is determines whether it is OCA1, 2, 3, etc. OCA2 is known to be a result of errors on the P gene (normal Tyrosinase, but abnormal production/distribution of the pigment).

Most albinos are Tyrosinase pos. As a result...I am wondering if the creaminos pictured here are just albinos with a defect higher up on the chain of pigment formation? Just making an off the wall guess on that one. I have no idea...I just suspect it because of their burgandy eyes.

Additionally, albinos are often plagued by a host of health problems such as decreased immune system function, increased risk of cancer, problems with the liver that can result in bleeding and clotting abnormalities, problems with the lungs and bowels, increased sensitivity of the eyes, decreased visual acuity of the eyes. I can't see why in the world anyone would want to increase production of albino suggies.

It is sad that some choose to breed for the albino trait simply because it is rare or "pretty" or just because they want to see what color they get when they pair colors together. I can't see how this kind of breeding is for the good of the glider.

As far as Lues...the cause of their hypopigmentation is different from the albino, but it is still a reduction in skin pigment. I am unsure if lues have a related defect...the literature is a little foggy on that one. The genetic cause of the reduction in skin pigment in the Lue does not affect the pigment in the eyes, obviously, resulting in dark eyes rather than red eyes. Additionally, many animals that have white patches on their body and tails are actually just "pied," otherwise know as partial leucism, all just depends on where the error is on how much white you get and where it is.

Also, the expression of the leucistic or albino trait differs depending on what kind of species you are talking about as a result of differing genetic makeup. That is why in some animals you will see the blue eyes but in others you don't, for example; or why you see pigment on some parts of the body but bright white in other parts that are supposed to colored in other animals. You cannot apply albino and luecistic genetics found in humans and other animals to gliders strictly due to differing genetic makeups.

You're wrong about mosaics(the ones with white splotches) being a form of leucism. The mosaic gene did not originate from leus and you will never get a leu by breeding a leu and a mosaic because the genes are completely different. Although that form of leucism is true in some other animals, that is not the case in mosaic gliders.

Also, just a little fyi, the correct terms would be leucism and albinism, not leucicism and albinoism, lol.

I'm not extremely familiar with the albino gene, so I can't comment on that, but I'm sure someone will come along soon with more info.

Gwen does have quite a grasp on her research, I've been avidly researching this as I too feel the Creamino is simply an albino with the ability to produce some color. T+ vs T- period, there can be varying degrees of color shown in albinos and their eye color will vary as well in a pink to garnet range. I don't think this is a horse of a different color but an albino of a different degree.
There are lots of papers and articles on the web that explain albinism, leucism, melanism, zanthrism, you name it if there is a color mutation or defect it's out there. Just google it and be ready to read for a while.

Hey wait....I never said that you would or wouldn't get a Lue from breeding a Leu to a mosaic...these color variations are not a result of the same defect. I didn't discuss that. Anyways, everyone knows that you have to have 2 copies of the Lue defect in order to get a Lue whether it come from a Lue or a Lue het, etc., ...I think that is obvious from all the snow we keep seeing on these boards.

Did a poor job on my wording...I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that mosaics come from the "true" Lue lines. Still not sure how to word it...I mean it is possible it is another type of luecistic defect like in other species resulting in the varied expressions of white patches in that line. However, since the defect is different...one would conclude that mosaics would lead only to mosaics if the offspring inherited the right number and type of defects.

Also, please, please note that I very clearly stated at the end that the genetic information I discussed cannot be applied to gliders strictly because of the different genetic makeup, or any other species for that matter. However, research has shown that patchy white areas in other species are a result of a defect similar to that of the Lue but the defect is in different areas or on different genes which is why the patterns are so different. Even the research details how the actual pattern of the patchy white often differs strikingly in parents, siblings, offspring, etc. It's kind of neat that we see this in gliders, too...mosaics usually don't produce joeys with the exact same mosaic patterns!! I wonder why!!

Anyways, this is always a hairy discussion...there is so much we just don't know. All I know is I am driving my genetics instructor insane!! He keeps telling me ask him something about a human or a dog and he's on board!!

Gwen, tell your instructor I'm LMAO at him because he doesn't want to discuss our babies.

This is a very interesting thread, I do appreciate gliders of color but I don't appreciate breeding unhealthy animals. I don't think that we should sort of label these colored animals as defective and put down breeders who have a passion for these beautiful gliders. I am sure most if not all the breeders on GC have put careful consideration in their pairings and would not put two together if they thought it would result in unhealthy babies.

In fact, most breeders on GC are trying to outbreed their rare colors with healthier lines so that their lines are healthier also. Chocolate labs were once considered a defect, as well as white German Shepherds and today they are great companions regardless of their 'defect.' In fact, I am going to say that all dog breeds are defects, none of them are wolves and have all been inbred to a degree. Some have breathing problems, others birthing problems, many large breeds have a high rate of hip displaysia, all a result of inbreeding and yet I feel dog breeders are not as criticized. I don't see any reason for not *carefully* breeding healthy animals of color =). In fact, I feel that some breeders on this forum care so much about gliders that they are putting in vast amounts of effort to make these rare beauties healthier.

Keep this discussion going, it is so interesting!

Victor has had albinos Look at my herman he is def an albino.... =] and I have my reasons for beleiving this

Kris , do you have a picture of him?

Nicole, just reading this post. I have a Leucistic girl paired with a platinum mosaic male. They have 2 babies just OOP. Both these babies are white, soooooooooo, what are they?? Not sure I'm getting this.

unless the plat. mosaic male has leucistic behind him, the babies would be white mosaics..

He does have some leu, but if I understand Nicole's post, the pairing I have can't produce a leu??

They can if the MO is a leu het.

Becki is right..they all would be mosaic..:) unless he has some leu in his family..

Thanks you guys. I understand it now

thats good

MY HEAD IS SPINNING!!!!!!!

Very informative topic!

gnhughes:

This goes back to an independent discussion I had a while back dealing not so much with sugar gliders, but, other mammals that have the albino trait (we see a lot of albino ferrets) as well as humans. I am by no means versed in genetics (been out of the medical environment since 95) but you do bring up a valid issue regarding albino trait.

It jogged my tattered memory that at least with human albinos, that with some recessive traits come other medical problems that are not visible to us. Weakened immune system, one stated sensitivity to light, cancer, etc. It appears that the same issues faced by human albino could potentially be found in other animals. It makes me wonder then that as I breed alternate color variations (or any breeder); is there a risk of breeding potential health problems into their offspring and future generations by breeding the recessive trait? Or is this found more along the lines of Albinos?

Let's not forget we also have albino rats, mice, hamsters, etc that aren't anymore prone to health problems than their colored counterparts. Albinos are usually the first color mutation to appear in animal species and inbreeding is very common to establish the color.

Hang on a second gang.. I thought we were NEVER supposed to cross white gliders?!

They're all tracable to the same ancestry.. Is it really such a good idea to jeopardize their young on the off chance that they'll be a new perdy color?