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Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: Usha77] #653275
10/08/08 10:49 PM
10/08/08 10:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Thank you, really hug2 ....I sure am having a *down* day. AFter my son and I put the jacket on him, he FINALLY went to sleep and is still sleeping. I think that is best for him. I love him so much, he didn't even fight the jacket....more or less like, "ya done yet???"

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: Karin] #653277
10/08/08 10:51 PM
10/08/08 10:51 PM

M
Monster
Unregistered
Monster
Unregistered
M



Maybe the pressure of the jacket actually makes it feel less irritating??? Just a thought...

Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: ] #653287
10/08/08 10:59 PM
10/08/08 10:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
If it wasn't the *right* thing to do Gina...I would leave the jacket off...he really does not seem to care about the wound but I am not willing to take any chances crazy .

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: Karin] #653294
10/08/08 11:07 PM
10/08/08 11:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Karin I've been watching this thread since you started it. All the others have said it all, I just wanted you to know I'm praying for you and your "little" boy too.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: Adri] #653608
10/09/08 12:55 PM
10/09/08 12:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Karin we talked in IM from the start of this. You did everything I would have and mine are not as well behaved/layed back as Vu so I think he is going to be just fine. You caught it early and watched it. You saw a change and straight to the vet he went. THAT IS A GREAT GLIDER MOMMY! I love my fluffy VU and pray he will be back with Deja before long smile


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: cyndiekb] #653654
10/09/08 02:16 PM
10/09/08 02:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict
BCChins  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
Karin Vu is a handsome little guy.

Just remember he loves you no matter what and that you are not the only one who has gone though something like this. Even though we feel it should not happen and we do our best to prevent it can and will happen to all of us at one time or another.
The most important thing is we do just as you have and get them all fixed up and do our best to prevent it from happening again. If you were not a good Mommy you would not feel as you do. Please know we all love you just as much as the furry babies you have do. Without your caring ways many gliders would not have warm cozy beds and fun toy's. Mr Magoo say's he loves you too!


Have a Good Day
Brenda &
Mr. Magoo

Friendly Reminder please have an e-collar ready before you need it......
Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: Usha77] #654656
10/11/08 12:08 AM
10/11/08 12:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict
SugareeErin  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
Sorry you are going through this Karin, you and Vu will be in my prayers. Speedy recovery Vu!



:leu: Sugaree Gliders :rtmo:


Simba, Nala, Rain, Snow & Sugaree

Shadowdancer, Sugar Magnolia, Sunshine Daydream, Winter, Twinkle, Twilight, Everlette, Sparkle, Polar Bear, Indigo & Willow








Re: I am awful....Vu [Re: SugareeErin] #655476
10/12/08 11:34 PM
10/12/08 11:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Karin I am so sorry you and Vu are going through this!!! You are the best Mommy in the whole world and you were right on top of it. You are doing a lot more than a lot of people I have dealth with in my past. Vu is my grandbaby and I still feel totally assured that he is in the best hands possible!!!
I am horrible about getting on here so I am so sorry that I did not see this sooner. Give Vu a huge kiss for me. The jacket is probably a great idea anyway as that will keep Deja from grooming her big hunk of a man. LOL I think the more it is left alone by the two of them the better off he is. If you need anything do not hesitate to call.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Critter Creations] #655660
10/13/08 12:20 PM
10/13/08 12:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Update:

I will reply to all my PM's as soon as I can but I wanted to make an update post here really quick. Vu did great until yesterday and has managed to take out about 3 of the stitches (where he needed them most) so we are going back to the vet at 2:30 today. I will not leave them until we can come up with some sort of protection over the area (vet wrap jacket) or something. That is a whole story in itself. Wish us luck...he is such a good boy.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Karin] #655662
10/13/08 12:29 PM
10/13/08 12:29 PM

M
MagicMan
Unregistered
MagicMan
Unregistered
M



Karin, thanks for the update!! I will keep BOTH of you in my thoughts and prayers!

hug2 hug2 hug2

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ] #655668
10/13/08 12:53 PM
10/13/08 12:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
BCChins Offline
Glider Addict
BCChins  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
Thank you for the update Karin and we will keep you both in our thoughts till he is healed.

Many hugs


Have a Good Day
Brenda &
Mr. Magoo

Friendly Reminder please have an e-collar ready before you need it......
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: BCChins] #655683
10/13/08 01:20 PM
10/13/08 01:20 PM

M
Monster
Unregistered
Monster
Unregistered
M



Aw man - Of course he takes out the important ones! Will be thinking about you & Vu today, remember to update us when you get back! hug2

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ] #655800
10/13/08 05:46 PM
10/13/08 05:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Just talked to Karin a bit ago. They went to the vet and things are much better than she thought they were going to be.

They did have to put another stitch in Vu along with wrapping him up and applying collastate spray and every other thing Karin told them the *Could* do!! roflmao

Karin will be on later this evening and will give the full details, but for now, get some rest Karin. You and Vu are going through a lot right now, and we all know things are going to be JUST FINE.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Srlb] #655811
10/13/08 06:02 PM
10/13/08 06:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
pappy1264  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
Peggy, do you have Karin's email addy? She called me and asked for a pic of Timmy's shirt/wrap, but I didn't know her email addy to send it.

Thanks for updating us.


Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: pappy1264] #655823
10/13/08 06:20 PM
10/13/08 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
pappy1264  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
I got it, thanks!


Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: pappy1264] #655832
10/13/08 06:40 PM
10/13/08 06:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
We are back! I have to say, what an uplift of a day compared to the last....well, however many it's been nopity .

Ok...if you read above, you know big guy had to have 8 stitches due to a SMALL wound that got infected FAST, and I mean quickly. My point, even the smallest wound needs attention PRONTO.

Fluffy (obese) glider's have more issues than just their weight. We were unable to put ANY type of ecollar (tried 3 styles)on him, and for anyone thinking I didn't try hard enough, humpf...I most certainly did. We had one so tight his tongue was hanging out and he still managed to squeeze it off. In other words, too much fat, no neck.

Next, we tried jackets. Four styles...one worked. I designed jackets, took others ideas for jackets...bottom line, no go. One worked really well, however it had to be secured so tightly (fat was out the top and bottom squished) it ended up inhibiting circulation to the point I had to remove it or risk other problems.

So...Vu basically healed to this point without anything. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER suggest ANYONE trying this...it is not the way to go.

Today.
The vet was very pleased with his healing progress. The wound (with necrotic tissue, etc.) was approx. 2 quarter size worth of area. Without being able to cover his wounds once the itching/healing began he did open up a relatively small area (pencil eraser size) which led to the visit today. He required once stitch today and we had him put a vet wrap jacket on his while under anesthesia (THANK YOU KEN AND DANIELLE). Both the vet and I hope we can keep this on long enough for him to heal a little bit.

The vet I used is an *exotic* vet, however he has only seen one other glider in his practice. I send kudos to him for listening to me and others and trying to do what we can for the big guy. (too bad he didn't give any discounts though, LOL....ouch and a half!) Had this been a more serious issue (which I didn't realize it was in the beginning) I would have seen Dr. Ness.

I lost my very first baby, Tira, to a wound injury. She passed away, so my anxiety and faith in myself really played its toll on my this time. I am doing my best....Vu MUST get better!!

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ] #655834
10/13/08 06:42 PM
10/13/08 06:42 PM

L
lindayaks
Unregistered
lindayaks
Unregistered
L



Karin, I agree you should have the vet check Vu, but don't panic about the stitches. Glider skin is very elastic and every glider I've had sutured has gotten them out. If the wound is kept clean and Vu is only grooming, you and Vu should do fine with just antibiotics and good hygiene.

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: pappy1264] #655835
10/13/08 06:44 PM
10/13/08 06:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
pappy1264  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
I could not get yahoo to attach pics, so here they are Karin.

First is the very first bandage. It is extreme, but he did alot of damage and needed a severe pressure bandage to try to get the skin to close (plus keep him from going after himself more, which he was very determined to do!)

Next, a more 'normal' bandage, as he began to heal.

Last, the tshirt I made when he got his bandage off on the weekend and I had to come up with something quickly.....he stayed in this until he healed and he was much more comfortable. It was made with double thick fleece and velcro.

Attached Files
Timmy 1st bandage.jpg (49 downloads)
Timmy choo choo.jpg (45 downloads)
Timmy tshirt 1.jpg (42 downloads)
Timmy tshirt 2.jpg (34 downloads)
Timmy tshirt 3.jpg (38 downloads)

Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ] #655836
10/13/08 06:44 PM
10/13/08 06:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Other good news....the boy is down to 240g!!! He has lost 15g. which is a good good thing.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Karin] #655837
10/13/08 06:47 PM
10/13/08 06:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Excellent Mary....I love the t-shirt! I made something similar only much more dramatic with the velcro/fleece, but this might be the way to go if he gets out of his jacket as it is on him now. I will get pics later.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Karin] #655842
10/13/08 06:51 PM
10/13/08 06:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
pappy1264  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,015
MA
What I did was when he got his bandage off, I sliced it down the back, then used it as a sort of template on the fleece (I was holding him with one hand to keep him from eating himself, while I did this, including the sewing...I held the fleece with my knees!) The things we do for our babies! Let me know if I can help in anyway! (think of the little life vests you use when you waterski....lol)

Last edited by pappy1264; 10/13/08 06:52 PM.

Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Karin] #657172
10/15/08 08:52 PM
10/15/08 08:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,204
Sedona, AZ
ozzi Offline
Glider Addict
ozzi  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,204
Sedona, AZ
dance dance COME ON VU dance dance


Pat
You have not lived until you have done something for someone who can never repay you.....Unknown

Rest in Peace our little sweet friends that have crossed over the "Rainbow Bridge".
I miss you gangel Boo-Boo, Lucy, BJ, and Fivel
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ozzi] #659196
10/19/08 10:32 PM
10/19/08 10:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Thank you to everyone who has kept in touch either by phone or PM or just in your heart...we are still hanging in there but we have a way to go yet. I am feeling a bit more confident Vu will pull through this though, and for that, I am ecstatic!!!

Here is a picture from tonight....quite a big difference from the first pic huh crazy .

Attached Files
DSCN1725.JPG (67 downloads)
Vu injury
DSCN1726.JPG (58 downloads)
Take 2

Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: Karin] #659204
10/19/08 10:41 PM
10/19/08 10:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,204
Sedona, AZ
ozzi Offline
Glider Addict
ozzi  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,204
Sedona, AZ
That poor baby! I hope Vu continues to heal up fine agree
Thanks for the update....Pat


Pat
You have not lived until you have done something for someone who can never repay you.....Unknown

Rest in Peace our little sweet friends that have crossed over the "Rainbow Bridge".
I miss you gangel Boo-Boo, Lucy, BJ, and Fivel
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ozzi] #659222
10/19/08 11:24 PM
10/19/08 11:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
hug2 Hugs and prayers to you both, Karin. You know my thoughts are with you that he heals up soon. hug2


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: sugarlope] #659241
10/19/08 11:52 PM
10/19/08 11:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Karin - Thank you for the updates!

You and Vu are being so tough! I'm glad he's being such a good boy for you. I didn't understand about Tira and thus your anxiety about this. I'm so sorry - it must be like reliving a nightmare!

Only *this* one has a happy ending!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ValkyrieMome] #659304
10/20/08 03:24 AM
10/20/08 03:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,910
Phoenix, AZ
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis
KattyM  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,910
Phoenix, AZ
KarIn, I've been praying constantly since you first shared pictures. Vu is such a trooper, and you are such an amazing guardian angel to him. heart The latest picture looks night-and-day different than the first! clap

Your unfortunate ordeal is such a great reminder to all of us to be constantly vigilant for even the slightest change in our babies. There are tiny sharp points on my hex cage that could easily scratch my babies. frown Thank you for sharing this with us; I'm going to inspect my cage and try to make it safer. hug2

More continued hug2 and healing prayers being sent your way. heart


Forever owned in my heart by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

:rbridge:
• 2002: Keiko (F) + 2003: Hiroshi (M) = 2004: joey Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M), Herbie (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: KattyM] #659308
10/20/08 04:15 AM
10/20/08 04:15 AM

R
Raquel
Unregistered
Raquel
Unregistered
R



Karin,
I'm SO glad to hear how much better Vu is doing.
What a big difference between the first picture and this one!
I'm sure he's getting a lot of TLC from his mommy.
Will keep praying for his full recovery.
thumb hug2

Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: ] #659318
10/20/08 05:56 AM
10/20/08 05:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
Karin,
Vu's injury now looks very similar to the way Mareki's worst SM injury did after a week or so. At that point, the vet started having me flush the wound with sterile saline solution twice a day. I used a large syringe with a needle because the vet said I would be able to get a more forceful, concentrated stream that way. It took two people to do it - one to hold Mareki and one to do the flushing - but it made a huge difference in that it cleaned out the soft scab tissue and the pus from the center of the wound. Ask your vet about the possibility of flushing the wound at this point... Mareki's Flushed Wound...


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: I am awful....Vu *Update* [Re: sugarglidersuz] #659337
10/20/08 08:32 AM
10/20/08 08:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis
Xfilefan  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Karin-been watching and thinking about you and VU-tell him to get better! His stitches look a lot like Myst's did after the vet had to cut away her necrosis, except hers was on the back and not underneath-she's still trying to heal from having it opened again. All my thoughts and prayers with you guys! You're doing great.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
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