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Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #701617
12/30/08 12:03 AM
12/30/08 12:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Dianne, it seems taht whenever you post about breeding ley x leu, you always are sure to point out that dogs are inbred as well.

However, one thing to keep in mind is that DOGS are inbred/linebred to better the breed(such as GliderGuy's wifes example about hip dysplacia), but how does breeding leu x leu in any way help make better gliders?

You seem to know alot about breed dogs, but I think that your experience with dogs makes you tend to forget that your leus are GLIDERS, not DOGS!

There's absolutely no reason to be breeding leus together.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderGuyVA] #701742
12/30/08 03:44 AM
12/30/08 03:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
G
GliderFun Offline OP
Glider Lover
GliderFun  Offline OP
Glider Lover
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
Originally Posted By: GliderGuyVA
Hello I am GliderGuyVA's wife and I hope I don't "muddy" the waters with my post. He has asked me to write about some basic genetic information.

First of all breeding and genetic information is inferred from the phenotype or "physical" expression of a particular animal - in this case sugar gliders. But we could just as easily be talking about cows, horses or dogs - the basic principles should be the same.

We do make some assumptions about the "leu" phenotype -
1. It is recessesive - meaning that a glider who appears white can only be white if that gliders carries two copies of the "leu" gene - one from each parent. If a white glider is mated to a grey glider and a white baby is born, then the grey glider must have carried the leu gene - there is no other way since we assume the leu gene is recessive.

2. We make the assumption that the leu gene is a mutation. Meaning that something happened to the genetic sequence of a particular population or an individual in the population that changed the fur color from grey (desirable in a wild situation) to white (undesirable in a wild situation) in the wild pretty much all white gliders born would not survive to reproduce and pass their genetic material on to future generations because they would have been eaten by predators.

3. We make the assumption that the Leu gene, being an undesirable genetic mutation in the wild situation, could be linked to other undesirable genetic mutations - also recessive. This has not been proven or disproven to my knowledge. This is inferred from other species where the "white" phenotype has been linked to other problems (deafness, weaken immune systems, etc....)

So what happens when we make assumptions??? you know....

But basic genetics indicates that each and every phenotypically white Leu must have inherited that gene from some original descendant - or a very limited population of descendents that survived long enough to breed. They must have two copies (one from each parent) in order for that glider to be "white" therefore somewhere, perhaps many generations back those gliders must be related.

The real question is this - is the Leu gene linked to other "bad" genes. We just don't know. But we must remember it is a "bad" gene if trying to survive in the wild. With outbreeding the hope is that any "bad" genes potentially linked to the original leu will be selected out leaving only the leu trait alone - and then it would be safe to breed those white descendants. How many generations would that take? I don't know - and I don't think anyone can answer that question - because we don't know the answer to the fundamental question of does this color variant gene have other bad things associated with it?

Now as far as breeding close relatives - brother/sister, etc. regardless of color you are increasing the risk of pairing previously unexpressed bad genes that were recessive. Close relatives by definition have similar genetic material and would possibly carry similar recessive genes. Are all recessive genes bad - not necessarily. But nature has a way of making sure the "fittess" survive so those genes expressed by natural breeding through the test of time have shown to cause the greatest survival of the species.

The best examples of responsible breeding would be to look at the livestock industry where this has been done for hundreds of years. Many dog breeders do breed relatives in order to obtain certain desirable breed characteristics - is this wrong? Not if those recessive traits are not linked to a gene that can cause unthriftiness of the species. Many "bad" health issues have been bred out of certain breeds like the drastic decrease in the incidence of hip dysplasia in large breed dogs. Responsible breeders have spent the past 20 years certifying their dogs hips as phenotypically normal and only breeding those dogs (even if related) to other dogs with phenotypically good hips. Does this mean the dog is 100% clear of carrying the gene - no, we can't know that until we have the ability to sequence the genome of every parent, just not possible yet.

One thing I have to say to you all is - WOW! Kudo's to you for asking these questions now - before you start to see bad genetic phenotypes associated with breeding. Unlike the golden retriever or boxer world where the breeding occured and then they had to deal with trying to rid the breed of the bad genes associated with the good traits they were breeding for. We will always have genetic mutation and that can and often is a good thing that contributes to the survival of a species - but sometimes nature messes up and the passing on of traits is dictated by survivability. We as humans sometimes interfere with the natural process. Good luck to everyone and best wishes for a wonderul, healthy joey 2009.







NICE POST! But question for you. Shouldn't we find out what the undesirable genetic mutations are in Leu gliders so we know what to isolate and get rid of by out breeding.
I mean, right now, like you said, we're assuming many many things about leu gliders. Someone needs to find out what the undesirable genetic mutations are so and breed out from there, otherwise, a few things will happen,
A we will spend many years and a lot of dollars trying to out breed leus for no reason because we assumed something else was wrong when there wasn't anything else wrong

B we will never have the knowledge of the undesirable genetic mutations that Leus carry (if any) and knowledge is very important.

Right now we are relying on one situation, Sheilas gliders that passed away when she wasn't there, which should be discredited right now as the situation was uncontrolled thus rendering it useless.
Sorry to say, we really can't take anything from that because there were way to many variables and I am sure all of you have taken some sort of science class, if you don't set up controls and run through an experiment right, your data is skewed and thus useless.

I think people should do more research before they claim one thing or the other about the Leu trait because right now, there are way too many unknowns!

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #701746
12/30/08 04:02 AM
12/30/08 04:02 AM

L
Lawrence
Unregistered
Lawrence
Unregistered
L



GliderFun, I completely agree with you that we should do more research, experiments, and testing before we claim evidence without having the data! I believe that every statement needs to be backed up with factual evidence. I find it difficult to support statements like "it's just not right." Assumption is not acceptable in the field of science.

What glider research is really going on? Does anyone know? I know that it would be difficult because they're expensive... You can't just call up a company and order a box of 500 gliders as one can with a box of rats.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701750
12/30/08 04:08 AM
12/30/08 04:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Good lord, if anyone wanted a box of 500 gliders I might cry so loud the neighbors would come over to check on me cry


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: DeeDancer] #701752
12/30/08 04:25 AM
12/30/08 04:25 AM

L
Lawrence
Unregistered
Lawrence
Unregistered
L



I would have to agree, even if people do it with rats. I would love to do my fair share of researching genetics and behaviors in sugar gliders, but I only have two... I already get overwhelmed when something minor goes wrong! It's just ideal to have a high sample size whenever researchers run experiments with animals.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701753
12/30/08 04:27 AM
12/30/08 04:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
I completely understand what you meant, it was just a horrid thought when I first read it.


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135] #701764
12/30/08 07:39 AM
12/30/08 07:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
Well, am I missing something here? Are glider genetics different than dog genetics? Genetically speaking if you breed brother to sister etc it should be bad geneictally speaking whatever you are breeding etc.
The point being if some of these related breedings are done in dogs without bad effects, why would they be bad in gliders?
The other point here is that I have one pair that I have used. When I used this pair I felt I had enough knowledge in breeding that I didn't feel there was a problem. There was no evidence from my research that proved otherwise and as far as I'm concerned, that still remains true.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #701799
12/30/08 10:02 AM
12/30/08 10:02 AM

S
ShyRascal
Unregistered
ShyRascal
Unregistered
S



Thanks Diane, I was curious about your methods.

One thing I still don't understand is how Leu's can be bred and we only have a small lineage of 4 or 5 parents? How is this possible? I have looked at a number of lineages and only a couple of times do they have shared parents somewhere down the line. If it's so important that we not breed leu to leu because of "inbreeding" than why aren't better records being kept?

Another thing, and this is for everyone, if you breed brother and sister in the human world there is a good chance that something will be wrong with any child that is born thru that union. Why would it not be any different with gliders or dogs? While you may not see it physically, could it not affect them mentally?

I too am pretty much a stay at home wife, so please excuse my terminology. Science has never been a strong subject for me, lol.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701821
12/30/08 10:38 AM
12/30/08 10:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
I'm curious as to what is NOT considered too close relatives to breed? Brother/sister - yes, is bad - but what about 2nd cousin to 2nd cousin or such?


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701824
12/30/08 10:45 AM
12/30/08 10:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
Geeeeeeeeezzzzzzz, you may be a stay at home wife, but what a good question. I can't believe I didn't come up with this!!
The 3 lines mentioned I'm assuming are since people started selectively breeding leu gliders. If you noticed, some of the colored gliders pedigrees say wild caught. Anything wild caught the pedigree would be unknown, as would the colors behind it.
Hate to use my dogs again, but that is where I have the most knowledge. I bred a chocolate champion Pom, which in Poms is very hard to get an exotic colored dog that can compete with the orange Poms in the show ring.
The thing I always found interesting about him was that there is not ONE chocolate dog in his 5 generation pedigree! This breeding was done on a guess/hunch.I knew the sire of his mother on very rare occasions produced a chocolate, though he was orange. I also knew his dad, who was black, came from a white mother who had produced blue, but never chocolate. I thought just maybe I could come up with chocolate. Don't know the percentages of this breeding, but there were 3 puppies in Nick's litter. a chocolate, a white and an orange sable. My gamble really paid off. I just had to catch the right combination of color genes without actually having the chocolate gene itself there. I would assume genetically that this type of color producing could exist in any animal etc. That is why they can breed two normal colored gliders and come up with cremino etc. The exotic color gene is just hidden.
Interesting too was that in Poms the original dog colors were chocolate, white, black etc. the oranges man came up with and liked so they concentrated on breeding orange Poms.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Gossamer] #701828
12/30/08 10:57 AM
12/30/08 10:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
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heartlandglider  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
Jeanine, there are some people that would consider any related breeding a no no, while others, myself being included, would and have done some very tight pedigrees.
The problem that happens is one I have right now. I have 2 puppies here with very tight pedigrees that are wonderful. They are very concentrated on my chocolate champion dog. However, they shouldn't be bred to anything I currently own because they are now what I consider too closely bred. I have gotten all the good things from one line I can. In order to use them in a breeding program i need to cross out into another line that is an outcross with the desired characteristics I am breeding for. A few generations down the line I MIGHT would try crossing back into the original line. That decision is made when you see how the lines are crossing together and what they're producing.
I think based on your knowledge of selective breeding it is up to each individual where the line is drawn. I do know people that have done brother/sister breedings with no bad effects. Personally, I do not consider that a good breeding. However, the choice is up to the people involved and not everyone around them. I don't bad mouth people that make that choice, but personally, it would not be my choice.
I believe as a breeder that you try to educate people that are just starting. Educating them does NOT mean pushing your opinions off on them. It means giving them the info of the choices you consider that they have available and then letting them make the choice that they feel is right for them. Experience can really help new comers. Thing that you run into is that everyones experiences can be a little different. so you listen to the info you collect and decide which is right for you.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #701872
12/30/08 12:25 PM
12/30/08 12:25 PM

G
GliderGalVa
Unregistered
GliderGalVa
Unregistered
G



Hello - me again. I just signed up to the group, so now GliderGalVa is GliderGuyVa's spouse.... I promise I won't be posting a lot because he is on the computer much more than I am. I just thought I would add a few things to my previous (and very long - sorry) post.

I simplified the genetics of the discussion but here is another thought - and probably more true, there is likely more than one gene responsible for coat color. Oh goodness that really complicates things, and maybe a gene is not 100% recessive meaning that each gene (or allele) of a pair expresses itself to some degree - and you have to have just the right combinations of recessive genes (possibly 4 or more) to come up with the totally white phenotype....

Also - you already have a large group of gliders to watch and study, just from the members of this group. If everyone here keeps meticulous records of pairings and outcomes, and shares the information - you could really do something powerful. The knowledge you guys could gather just in the next year or two could be huge.

Great discussion and have a wonderful new year.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703003
12/31/08 08:38 PM
12/31/08 08:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
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Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Welcome GliderGalVa! It's great to have someone with your knowledge joining this group of knowledgeable breeders. I hope you are able to correspond with those that are breeding out the gene.

I would really hate to see people breeding leu x leu just so we can gain knowledge on what bad traits they may carry to try to breed them out. It isn't necessary to "experiment" with them when we can successfully pair non-related gliders together and reproduce the luecistic glider. We know "how" to reproduce them, why go backwards? It just doesn't make sense to me. We are not in the infancy stages of developing the leu glider; they (I will call them founding breeders) have already done that for us. We just need to continue to selectively pair our gliders up to continue out-breeding and strengthening the color.

The closest document that I am aware of within this community that dictates what is safe breeding is the Kinship Chart.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #703070
12/31/08 09:42 PM
12/31/08 09:42 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Sorry if this has been said, I will admit that I did not read every reply yet, but someone already is breeding leu x leu to see what happens. Her name is Diane Kieffer (spelling may be wrong?) of Heartland Gliders. Many people in the glider community strongly disagree with this pairing, as you've already noted, and I imagine she will have a very hard time finding homes for these leus as many people probably will not buy them.

So, if you want to see what will happen scientifically by crossing leu x leu, PM Diane. I am not sure how scientific her data collection is, so perhaps if science is your true interest, you could collaborate with her.

The problems with the leu x leu crossings, as you've already been told, is

1) There are not enough leus yet and the lines are not bred out enough yet to do this with an acceptably low coefficient of inbreeding, and

2) Let's say that you were to take two leus that were sufficiently (by your standards) unrelated enough to do this. Let's say you sell the babies. What happens if the new owners breed these babies that may or may not have health problems and questionable genetics? Even if you are embarking on this as a "scientific" quest, if you sell these babies, you have little control over what their next owner decides to do with them or who they breed them with. This is a big fear of many breeders out there, is that by encouraging leu x leu crossings rather than breeding out the line, MAJOR health problems MAY arise in the line and then be hard to breed out.

IMHO, the only responsible thing to do if this was a scientific venture would be to keep the babies and observe them for any health issues. But still, I have a real ethical problem with this as it's a well known scientific fact that the higher the inbreeding coefficient, the more health problems they are, so why possibly make some poor little gliders suffer the effects of your science experiment?

You may be aware that mosaics have some major sterility problems in their lines, likely due to inbreeding. If breeding leu x leu is encouraged and people are not VERY responsible, you are likely to see health problems pop up in the leus as well.

In the future, when the line has been expanded enough and there ARE leus that are only very distantly related, I doubt then that anyone would have a problem breeding leu x leu. But this is NOT the case currently in the gene pool, which is why most people with a good knowledge of breeding or genetics disagree with this kind of pairing at this time.

Hope this helps, and I hope you will decide to do what is best for the gliders.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703075
12/31/08 09:48 PM
12/31/08 09:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer
Chris_R  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Well said Jen!!

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #703095
12/31/08 10:10 PM
12/31/08 10:10 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



OK my last post was rather stupid for not reading the rest of the thread, (I see that Diane has introduced herself already), but since I do have a degree in zoology and have studied genetics quite a bit, let me add to my last statement since you are seeking scientist input. I don't mean to be rude, but there are a lot of people posting who clearly, by the content of their replies, do not truly understand genetics, so let's get some facts straight.

Leucism is a mutation. So are blue eyes in humans, blonde hair in humans, lactose intolerance in humans, etc. A mutation is just a change to DNA. It can be good, bad, or neutral in terms of the overall health of the organism. So whether or not we should be breeding leus is a question only an individual can decide. What most *responsible* breeders and glider owners are concerned about is is leucism linked to mutations that are harmful to the glider.

"Linked" means that two genes are on the same chromosome and are likely to be inherited together. It is well established with dogs (so Diane I'm sure is aware of this) and other animals that often health problems are associated with leucism. For instance, dogs with leucism are more likely to be deaf and have behavioral problems. This tells us that there is linkage between these genes.

To date, there has been no conclusive evidence that any health problems in gliders are linked to leucism. However, it is also well established in dogs, horses, humans, and many animals that the higher the inbreeding coefficent (meaning the more inbred the animals are) the more likely that the animals will inherit recessive, linked alleles that will be harmful to the animal's health. This has been well documented in many breeds of animals.

Is it guaranteed to cause health problems? No. But there is a MUCH higher risk of health problems the more you inbreed. This is a proven genetic fact for many animals, and like it has been stated, genetics is genetics, and if we see this in other animals, it is likely to also arise in gliders with inbreeding.

Diane has made many mentions of her experience with dog breeding. Frankly, if you are truly experienced with dog breeding and genetics, I would expect you to exercise more caution in breeding gliders. I can't even begin to name all of the health and behavioral defects caused by line breeding and inbreeding in purebred dogs. Hip displaysia, bone cancers, deafness, springer rage, narcolepsy, just to get started, I could name 80 more if I wanted to look up some more online. If you ask any geneticist they will tell you that inbreeding dogs to get the breeds to look a certain way is the worst thing we have done for man's best friend because we have made them unhealthy and unstable in our quest for a perfect looking dog.

So if you want to turn your gliders into another science experiment, fine. You may breed dozens of leu x leu crossings and think nothing is happening. Keep in mind that many times genetic defects and health problems don't surface until later, after these leus have already been dispersed and bred to other leus, and then good luck breeding the problems out. As I stated in my last post, breeding mosaics is extremely tricky now due to the sterility in that line, and now mosaics are probably more expensive than they would have been if originally bred responsibly because individuals without sterility are rarer, thus making them more expensive. You could essentially destroy the entire line if the problem becomes pervasive enough.

If you really want healthy, robust, inexpensive leus, take a lesson from what genetics has been telling us for years and years and breed them out. They will become more common and less expensive with time as more and more people breed out the line. Creating a healthy line of a certain mutation, like leucism, takes time, patience, and responsibility. Breeding them together just for the sake of a science experiment is unfair to the animal and all the breeders who have been spending years trying to breed them responsibly.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Chris_R] #703102
12/31/08 10:22 PM
12/31/08 10:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
I just don't get it though...to me the only reason a leu is being bred to another leu would be for profit. Offering them to homes for cheaper for the sake of a customer sounds like a bunch of bologna to me!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703120
12/31/08 10:37 PM
12/31/08 10:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Great post Jen!


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: SugarBlossoms] #703180
01/01/09 12:20 AM
01/01/09 12:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
Jen, I have always found you to be a very informative person! Great post!!!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderLove] #703186
01/01/09 12:32 AM
01/01/09 12:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Jen - we miss you when you don't post! You always have such great things to say, and a good way of saying them!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703201
01/01/09 01:14 AM
01/01/09 01:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
Breeding them together just for the sake of a science experiment is unfair to the animal and all the breeders who have been spending years trying to breed them responsibly.


thanks

How you worded that was just PERFECT! thumb


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135] #703339
01/01/09 10:40 AM
01/01/09 10:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Great posting Jen! I hope this provides the information this post was requesting. You have given scientific factual information which proves what the reputable breeders have been saying; it's simply not a good idea to breed leu x leu ~ and has nothing to do with money! It is all about the health and well being of our gliders!

Thank you for your knowledgeable input!


Shelly

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Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #703419
01/01/09 01:16 PM
01/01/09 01:16 PM

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TWilson
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Originally Posted By: heartlandglider
Well, am I missing something here? Are glider genetics different than dog genetics? Genetically speaking if you breed brother to sister etc it should be bad geneictally speaking whatever you are breeding etc.
The point being if some of these related breedings are done in dogs without bad effects, why would they be bad in gliders?
The other point here is that I have one pair that I have used. When I used this pair I felt I had enough knowledge in breeding that I didn't feel there was a problem. There was no evidence from my research that proved otherwise and as far as I'm concerned, that still remains true.


I have no knowledge of breeding gliders or any animal for that matter, so I'm not going to get into the wrongs and rights of it, I will though question this reseach.

It is said that this has been done in dogs and had no bad effects and you are trying to prove that this can be done with gliders too, you are basically perfoming an experiment here, to prove that the science backing why gliders cannot bred the same way is wrong. In order to do a successful experiment to prove your theory, will take years and alot of testing.

Just because a pair has produced a seemingly healthy glider, does NOT mean it is. You will have to keep this offspring and any others they may produce and do extensive testing throughout their natural lives. This should include regular xrays to document normal bone growth, ultra sounds to show normal organ development, blood testings, etc. Necropsies will have to be performed on all deceased glider too. All this will have to be careful documented and studied by specialist in the genetic field because it could take a couple of years to show negative effects or postive for that matter.

Any offspring that leaves cannot be studied and tested, it could be put in a breeding program that will further the defects that it could potentially have. From there it could be disasterous for all gliders and then it would be too late. Too late for the gliders to say, "Oops, my bad."

I don't understand the need for this, there are proven ways to breed safely for leus already but if you feel strongly in your heart that the science is wrong and you want to prove that theory, then conduct your experiment. However, conduct your experiment properly, selling the offspring is nothing more than shooting in the dark and hoping you hit your target.

Diane this was not just directed at you, this is for anyone who does or wants to do this.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703454
01/01/09 01:55 PM
01/01/09 01:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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Sherri  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
I absolutely love this thread. Very informative. Thank you all for your input so far.

I knew certain colored gliders carried the sterility gene, but wasnt sure how it got started. Very interesting reading.

I dont understand why someone would really want to try and breed leu x leu once they knew the affects of what happend with the mosaic line.

I'm grateful I dont breed. Too much pressure!


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #703497
01/01/09 02:59 PM
01/01/09 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i agree with you.i checked your site and you have beautiful babies. i am saving my pennies this year to get a white faced blonde/leu het. do you get any wfb/leu het babies out of your beautiful gliders.
since you keep good records and your babies and adopted babies are doing well i hope to be contacting you this year for a joey.

regards,
nancy

happy holidays everyone


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: hwh4ev] #703514
01/01/09 03:32 PM
01/01/09 03:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
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Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
I tend to stay away from this topic. I haven't fully formed an opinion on it yet. I do know this, IF you are going to breed a leu to a leu, the lineages should be as good as they can be. Is that happening? That's my question.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

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Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #703524
01/01/09 03:44 PM
01/01/09 03:44 PM

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DelilahsMom
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How long have these 3 lines been around? I ask because I know (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets has had some accidental leu's. But, they think they are albinos.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703551
01/01/09 04:05 PM
01/01/09 04:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
How long have these 3 lines been around? I ask because I know PPP has had some accidental lue's. But, they think they are albinos.


Leus have black eyes, Albinos have pink eyes and no color pigment. Two totally different gliders.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: SugarBlossoms] #703558
01/01/09 04:13 PM
01/01/09 04:13 PM

D
DelilahsMom
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DelilahsMom
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(PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is stupid. I know the difference but they don't. They had an ORANGE leu with black eyes. They claim there are only 8 in existance and worth $10,000. And, I do know one was stolen from them at an expo.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #703733
01/01/09 08:09 PM
01/01/09 08:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
Originally Posted By: 7glider7

Leucism is a mutation. So are blue eyes in humans, blonde hair in humans, lactose intolerance in humans, etc.




Humans were never designed, and back in the cavemen era, after a certain age weren't able, to digest lactose. That was the norm.

A mutation is defined as a change or alteration.

If humans originally were not designed to digest lactose and now can, it means that those who CAN digest lactose are in fact the mutation instead of those who can't.
Just an FYI


If it's not OK to breed 'mutated genes' like blond hair and blue eyes then how are we able to successfully produce offspring with other blue eyed blond haired people?

I mean, back when blond hair and blue eyes occurred I don't think people said, "Oh look, a mutation lets selectively breed each other so nothing bad happens." Whose to say that when blond hair and blue eyes first occurred, there weren't other blond hair blue eyed people having kids with each other. You can't say that the lineage of people with blond hair blue eyes are so far separated that it's OK now. What about then? They didn't have the knowledge of genetics then and I can bet that humans didn't selectively breed themselves.


Also, as far as breeding leu to leu to test to see if it is really 'bad', I never said to sell them. I just stated that it should be done, controlled, and the gliders should be studied before STATING that it is BAD. It is very very poor science to say something is a FACT without even experimenting.

And for those who say, "omg you're experimenting with animals, bad, bad, bad." you obviously do not understand what it is that I am talking about.
Not all animal experiments are BAD and hurt the animals, etc.

If you selectively breed leu to leu making sure you follow the kinship chart that seems to be everyone's guide, you should not see any if any ill effects of breeding. I am obviously not saying, keep your gliders in 1X1 cages, feed them seeds, and just breed them. That is very poor treatment of your animals.
It's not the types of experiments that you may be thinking of.

We need responsible people to selectively breed leu to leu, keep them in a controlled environment (as controlled as we can), feed them 'the best' diet we can ( I quote 'the best' because there hasn't even been enough science to come up with the perfect diet for gliders) and record anything and everything as well as keep great records. They have to be kept in larger cages, with cage mates or large colonies like they are in the wild, and in temperatures that they are likely to live in, in the wild.

When they pass they need to have tests done to see what was the cause and that also needs to be recorded.

This will take years but why not start now.
They will still be treated great and kept as pets but these gliders will be very important to the scientific world as well as future glider owners for years to come.
As long as we have responsible people doing this, there should be no problems.

And if people want to sell joeys from leu to leu breeding it should be neutered males. Then everyone's fear of messing up years of selectively breeding will be extinguished.




Last edited by GliderFun; 01/01/09 08:10 PM.
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