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Diets and liver issues #739776
02/23/09 01:13 PM
02/23/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
I lost my sweet Deja yesterday morning. She went forever nite nite around 10am. I will post her story when I am ready, but it might be a while. She was 7 yrs. old. I have lost my original first 4 gliders all at 7 yrs. old, and every one of them (except no proof with Tira) had major liver issues at necropsy, yet all other organs were in excellent condition. Deja had a large tumor on her liver and her liver was failing. She had begun to SM this morning. Vu also began to SM at the end...he was trying to chew out his liver.

I am not, in no way shape or form blaming ANYTHING, but, we have to learn. These 4 babies were from BML parents, and were BML gliders for all of their years. For approx. 2yrs. I swayed from the actual diet and supplemented with boiled chicken probably 5 nights a week. ( I had not added the chicken as part of their diet for almost 5yrs. now though. ) The rest of the time, it was the BML diet with occasional fun treats. (so shoot me) Since the VA SGGA I had cut the Herptivite amount in half of the regular diet amount.

It is time we all admit liver issues are too high among BML fed glider's. Now, I am not sure we can correlate liver issues associated with other diets yet, as we don't have the years behind us, but it is so imperitive we keep watchful eye as these alternative diets and necropsies come up. I wish I was smart. I have no idea what the correlation might be regarding liver issues but the very basic's. I always promised myself, and my glider's not to vary their diets so we could have answers when the time came for them to leave me, and I kept my promise to myself. I do have answers now, and I cannot make up reasons for these answers. Three of my four (and I cannot say 4 because Tira is unknown) passed from liver i ssues. Why.

Liver issues are too high to keep denying. What is/or is there a common denominator? Is it the vitamins/too much/type? Is it the sugar? Honey?

Let's discuss, and please, this is NOT to diet bash!

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739780
02/23/09 01:21 PM
02/23/09 01:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Karin - I know you don't want to hear it: I'm sorry for your loss. I'm not going to belabor that - as I know you don't need to hear that right now.

Thank you for posting this as a learning discussion. Is there some sort of database? Who has lost gliders to liver issues besides your 3? Were they all on BML also?

I'd like to have more information on the table here.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome] #739781
02/23/09 01:27 PM
02/23/09 01:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
It would also be helpful to hear from folks who have lost gliders to liver disease who were fed other diets.

The common denominator may be a part of the diet not the entire diet - ie amount/type of vitamins or the protein (baby food chicken) source.

All the variables and common parts of the diet need to be considered to get a full picture.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome] #739783
02/23/09 01:30 PM
02/23/09 01:30 PM

M
meme05
Unregistered
meme05
Unregistered
M



Are you still feeding BML? I am new, and am also feeding BML. Now this scares me.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #739790
02/23/09 01:50 PM
02/23/09 01:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Please do not be scared! BML has sustained gliders for many years and there is no perfect diet out there right now. Liver issues in glider's are high...now, we need to attempt to figure out why. We have to start somewhere. : ) I am using the BML example because these four lived (not nearly long enough in my book) and thrived for 7 years on the SAME diet. When we start changing diets and then want answers after passing, we can't get a true result because too many variables are involved.
This was my own personal way to get some answers...by never changing up their diets. Understand, when I first got my gliders there were VERY little diet choices at the time.

I do not have a data base I am referring to, although I believe Lucy was gathering data at one time, and others are in the beginning stages now doing the same. I can say liver issues are high, because I have read and observed threads for many years now and it consistently comes up over and over. Gotta start someplace.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739791
02/23/09 01:52 PM
02/23/09 01:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
At the moment, no, I am not feeding BML. The reason is, my younger gliders came to me from parents being fed a totally different diet, so again my mission is to see how these babies fare on the diet I am now feeding.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739818
02/23/09 03:07 PM
02/23/09 03:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
My understanding, with humans, so I have to assume with most animals too, is that liver failure is most often secondary to other "conditions". Since the liver is the "filter" that catches all the crud in the system, when something else is going on, such as infections etc.. that the liver is most often the first organ to fail and "die". This leads whatever it was to then effect other organs.

Vit A toxicity is a concern. When too much vit A is taken in, instead of passing through the body, it is stored in the liver. toxic levels can build. BML uses the herp vitamins because they have Beta Caradine instead of Vit A.

When Vit A is needed, the body converts the beta caradine to vit A and what ever is not needed, is past out through the waste, not stored by the body.

I believe too much Vit C can effect the liver much like aflatoxins.

There are just so many posibilities with "liver failure". The source of the "liver failure" needs to be identified. Liver tumors need to be biopsied to determine what type of tumor it is as well.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Dancing] #739824
02/23/09 03:16 PM
02/23/09 03:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Excellent post T. For the most part, I agree with you. In my particular case though, I choose not to believe that is what happened here. Three gliders, all the same age, all on the same diet for their lives, all suffered liver damage. In Deja's case, it was not a sudden liver compromise. Her liver had a large tumor growth. In Vu's case, much of his liver issues *could* be contributed to what was going on prior (the wound), but cannot be definitive as that being the sole reason. His liver was "loaded with nodules". And again, liver issues come up FAR TOO OFTEN for it to be explained away with *something else was going on*.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739829
02/23/09 03:28 PM
02/23/09 03:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
And again, liver issues come up FAR TOO OFTEN for it to be explained away with *something else was going on*.


I'm not disputing you Karin, just saying that "liver" issues are not normally THE original issue. Something caused the liver to fail. That's all I'm saying. We both are posting that what is causing the "liver failures" needs to determined.

Could it be ONE of the vitamins in the BML? Or a combo of two or three and how they interact? Are these same vitamins in the Wambaroo? The Ensure? How much in each and how do we determine which one/ones are causing the problem?

I also wonder...how common are liver issues in wild gliders? Wild gliders live on average 7 years. Have any studies (that you know of) have been done on this with our wild counterparts?

Is keeping them in our houses causing the problems? The air in most houses is often more polluted than the air outside. And most of us live with "canned air" (air conditioners/forced air heaters) Could that be causing the liver problems?

Quote:
His liver was "loaded with nodules".
Just what were these nodules?

Karin, I'm sorry for your losses. I know it hurts. I do want to thank you for putting this up for discussion.

Last edited by Dancing; 02/23/09 03:31 PM.

620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Dancing] #739831
02/23/09 03:33 PM
02/23/09 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Love it...this is what we need to do, and keep doing until we get closer to answers.

In the wild, no, nothing, unfortunately. We know so very little. The protein in the wild, for example...is it animal protein? insect protein? vegetation proteins? Do different proteins break down differently in the body? The glider body? Questions upon questions.

(I have always admitted I am not very eloquent at getting my ideas across, so if someone can explain better, go for it!)

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739833
02/23/09 03:35 PM
02/23/09 03:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
I gave the only report I had to Dr. T...it was not cancer though, even though at first the vet felt it was. I will have to go back and find out exact answers though...my memory fails me.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739839
02/23/09 03:59 PM
02/23/09 03:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
S
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave
silverwolf  Offline
Glider Slave
S

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,732
Utah
Karen I also lost my glider to liver issues. She had a very large tumor growth that ultimately killed her. When they did the necropsy the tumor was not cancerous but its growth did eventually mean the end. She was only 4 years old when this happened. My problem is that I had switched diets I started on BML after about a year on this she would not eat it anymore. I then switched to Pracilla's diet she did well on that for about 2 years then she refused to eat that anymore no matter what I tried she had also started losing weight at this time and we could not determine why. I think this is when the tumor started to grow and it was uncomfortable. For the last year she was on HPW because I could get her to eat it and she started at least maintaining her weight. She never really gained the weight she lost back but didn't continue to lose until the very end. This tumor was one that they said was odd because they don't usually see it in gliders. But for the life of me I cannot remember what it was called. I would also like to see if we can determine why so many of our babies seem to have liver problems. The other thing that needs to be considered is could there be a genetic correlation here. Are our babies genetically prone to liver problems. Or is it something here that they lack maybe something to do with the eucalyptus that they get in the wild that they don't get here.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: silverwolf] #739850
02/23/09 04:42 PM
02/23/09 04:42 PM

J
joan248
Unregistered
joan248
Unregistered
J



Have you considered your water source? Both what they drank and what may be mixed with food, gliderade, etc. Well water needs to be checked often depending where you live.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #739874
02/23/09 05:52 PM
02/23/09 05:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
A concern for years has been iron levels in the bml. Many deaths over the years have been linked to high iron levels in the liver.

From what I have been told, even when BML first came out, the vets questioned why the iron levels were so high. It was said to offset other variables in the diet.

Years ago I switched away from BML and went to PML. It is the closest diet out there to the original leadbeaters diet created by Des Hackett who was the first to successfully breed sugar glider & Leadbeaterís possum in captivity.

When I first came around, everyone use to say the only reason bml was created was due to the ban of high protein cereal here in the states, so we needed an alternative at the time and it worked.

High protein wombaroo has been available to us for years now. It even says on the box, can be substituted for high protein cereal.

Now I am not saying everyone stop using bml, but as Karin is saying we need to learn more. Over the years I have seen people push very knowledgeable diet people away because they did not agree with this diet. All they were doing is trying to warn us of this years ago and to open up a discussion such as this.

This will be a great discussion, and I hope many will be open minded and we all learn. This is the only way we can improve the well-being of our gliders


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #739881
02/23/09 06:00 PM
02/23/09 06:00 PM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Ok guys, I was studying for a Med/Surg exam last night and came across something that may be a part of this liver problem in gliders, Flagyl. In humans, and I am sure in gliders too, it can cause hepatitis. Not bacterial or viral but, simply an inflammation in the liver.

I can provide resources if requested.

Last edited by DelilahsMom; 02/23/09 06:11 PM.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #739891
02/23/09 06:16 PM
02/23/09 06:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Hepatitis is another thing to look at, iron overload has been found in

Vitamin C deficiency
Hepatitis


Last edited by gliderdad79; 02/23/09 06:17 PM.

Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #739896
02/23/09 06:30 PM
02/23/09 06:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
I have always used bottled spring water.

Vu's necropsy did show Acute Hepatitis. However, that I don't believe was due to diet (don't want to get off topic)...but the nodules on the liver are another story.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739910
02/23/09 07:03 PM
02/23/09 07:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Eddie, if I remember correctly, all 3 diets studied at the time showed high iron levels. How high is too high? BML was the highest by quite a bit though.

Just stating findings.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #739963
02/23/09 08:24 PM
02/23/09 08:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,713
GA
Sabarika Offline
Glider Slave
Sabarika  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,713
GA
I'm going to watch this thread closely.. when I had gliders I fed them BML and planned on doing so when I adopted more. Depending on findings I may switch to another diet.. I always considered BML easiest because I didn't have to order ingredients online (would hate to run out and have to wait a week for it to ship). Please let us know what anyone finds!


Sabarika
Photography
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Sabarika] #740005
02/23/09 09:33 PM
02/23/09 09:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
I really don't know that answer, but I do just looked it up and the daily iron intake for an infant 0-6 months old is 0.27 mg/day

I have the diet study on a local disk, let me find it.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740013
02/23/09 09:46 PM
02/23/09 09:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
Okay, iron levels and BML and all aside... what we need is a DATABASE of glider necropsies from ALL AREAS of the country to COMPARE them SIDE by SIDE... it could be the diet, it could be pollutants, it could be the water (after all, bottled water comes from the same source as all other water... so water in general could be it), it could be environmental, it could be geographic or it could even be genetic or immunological... so what we need more than ANYTHING is a DATABASE... the AKC has a registry for their pedigreed dogs... why don't we have one for our gliders? If they were registered, they could be tracked and we would know what area of the country they lived in, what their genetic background is like, what they were fed, when and where and why they passed on and THEN we could start to get SOME idea of what causes things like this... we simply don't know enough yet to draw any conclusions. Karin, I am SO sorry for your loss... I agree it is odd for all of them to have made it to the same age before crossing the rainbow bridge... if only we had a database and someone compiling all of this info, your information could be SO important to the cause!


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: LabNGliderMom] #740036
02/23/09 10:15 PM
02/23/09 10:15 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,511
Texas
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict
Jackie_Chans_Mom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,511
Texas
Originally Posted By: LabNGliderMom
what we need is a DATABASE of glider necropsies from ALL AREAS of the country to COMPARE them SIDE by SIDE... why don't we have one for our gliders? If they were registered, they could be tracked and if only we had a database and someone compiling all of this info, your information could be SO important to the cause!


WE DO!

The SUGAR group - though fairly new - has been actively collecting necropsy reports from all across the nation - as well as surveys from glider owners and data from wellness and sick glider visits. We encourage EVERYONE to send ANY AND ALL data to us any time they go to the vet.

We also encourage everyone to complete your initial survey and help us to compile data on what is "normal" and what is "abnormal" in gliders. EVERY survey and EVERY piece of data is very important.

We have been working VERY hard to get our necropsy survey completed and ready for use so that the NECROPSY EFFORT can begin reimbursing a portion of the cost for necropsies. We hope this will encourage ALL glider owners to have a necropsy. They SAVE LIVES.

Karin - and anyone reading this who has ANY written reports on gliders but has not sent them in - please send your reports to the SUGAR group. you can email them to sugargroup@hotmail.com or snail mail to

SUGAR group
c/o Val Betts
604 Deahl Street
Borger, TX 79007



Karin, I am so very sorry for your losses. Our Necropsy surveys will be delving into any diet links as well as other contributing factors. It is our hope that one day we can give ANSWERS to our many questions about gliders.


~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom] #740078
02/23/09 11:30 PM
02/23/09 11:30 PM

P
penniedad
Unregistered
penniedad
Unregistered
P



i have my molly 3 yrs. old,,, she has liver problems , the vet. said there is nothing they can do ? my babydoll died of a huge tumor, molly is sicker,in my heart i know she will go to god soon, i just dont want her in pain, she never ate bml, the vet.asked me what she ate ,hpw, he said why so much honey in it ? to much, so i really wonder if anyone knows ? now i feed her chicken, fruits, veag,if shes leaves me, i will get a necropsie and send it

sorry for your losses, i know how much it hurts

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740097
02/23/09 11:53 PM
02/23/09 11:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,313
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,313
LittleRock, AR USA
Do you know where Molly came from? What diet her parents were on? How long did they live? Any information at all on them?


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Sabarika] #740144
02/24/09 01:00 AM
02/24/09 01:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I have always looked at what people said about certain diets in the past when I moderated and bred gliders and yes I do remember people saying that the iron in the BML was way too high even compared to other diets. I do remember it being explained that it was to compensate for things such as the fruits and veggies being fed (If I am wrong please correct me as it has been a long time), but iron is not a water soluble vitamin from what I recall and too much can definitely cause toxicity. The liver processes everything that comes into the body so yes too much of any vitamin that is not water soluble can be a huge issue.

Vitamin C is a water soluble vitamin that leaves the body very fast. (I am speaking with humans right now, but think it would be the same here as well) I have to take Vitamin C to strengthen the walls of my veins and arteries since I have problems with my body not making enough collagen and my doctors say that Vitamin C helps produce collagen. Anyway they tell me to take my vitamin C as many times a day as possible as it tends to leave the body within a couple hours. So I am suppose to take my Vitamin C at least in 4 different doses throughout the day. I take the same amount as everyone I just break it up due to this reason. So I have no doubt that there is any way that too much vitamin C is not the problem. Lack of Vitamin C may be an issue.

I did find an article about the way a body processes protein can be an issue, but I am still working through that article so i am not going to go any further into this.

The one thing I continued to run into with humans is that too much sugar causes too much insulin in the body and that this can lead to many different cancers, but liver cancer was definitely one of them they were discussing a lot. There is a lot of sugar in all the diets to my knowledge. However we aren't discussing humans so I have to go down further to see how other animals that take in larger amounts of sugar in the wild process that sugar to see if that could be a problem as well.

I think some people are wondering if liver problems have been a big issue and if my memory is right didn't we discuss liver issues and gallbladder issues at the SGGA last year? My memory could be wrong, but I thougth I remembered this being discussed as an issue. I do know that often times things can cause a liver to go bad. Viral, Bacterial infections we dont' know about, too much of certain vitamins and not enough of others. So we do have to strongly consider that diet is a big issue with the liver and gallbladder problems out there. We also all know that gallstones are made out of calcium. This doesn't always mean that there is too much calcium in somones diet, but it could be the way the body is processing it. If gallstones are happening in a lot of gliders then maybe there is too much calcium in the sugar glider diet(s) out there as they may either not need as much as they do in the wild or their bodies are processing it differently for a reason.

We also have to consider that the sugar gliders we have here are no longer wild gliders. They are domesticated which can mean that their bodies don't need as much of certain foods, vitamins,etc.. as they do in the wild. Also they may not process these things the same as they do in the wild

Dogs and Cats have been domesticated for a very long time and there is still a lot of research being done on their diets, but for the most part they tend to live much longer in captivity on average than they do outside. There are cars, other predators, lack of the proper food maybe,etc...
Sugar gliders face things such as these in the wild in Australia I am sure. They have to worry about other predators, injury, lack of food due to forest fires and other reasons, lack of places to live due to those reasons, etc.., etc.., etc.... So I do believe that sugar gliders should live longer in captivity on an average than they do in the wild. Please do not tell me that I am saying they shouldn't be in the wild as I do not believe that at all. I am just referring to the ones in domestic situaions. If we do not have the diet right for them to be able to do that then we really need to continue researching it to find out what to do and what not to do.

I will say that this takes a village and any help people can do will be to the benefit of the sugar glider. Even if you are not 100% correct in your thoughts does not matter as long as you are willing to admit that you could be partly wrong or maybe just wrong all together. It doesn't hurt to make any attempt you can. If you feel you don't kno anything about this sort of stuff do not let that deter you as most of the people in the sugar glider world startd with just books, internet articles, etc.. to learn and go from there. An old dog can do new tricks!! I do not know a great deal about diets, but I am lucky enough to have at least taken some college coarses in anatomy and Physiology and nursing so at least when I am reading an article I can sometimes get the basis of what they are saying. If you don't understand something look up the meaning. I think we all owe it to our babies. smile

I do also want to add that we should all watch how many treats we give and what type of treats they are. A little bit of something fed rarely is not going to do too much harm depending on what it is. We also have to consider that even the safest treats need to be fed just on a treat basis. I think we can all agree with that.

I also know that there are times I feed a tad bit heavier on the fruits if my gliders love them, but if sugar is an issue we need to know that fruits break down similar to sugar and if sugar is an issue we need to look at then maybe backing off of that if we do it would be a good idea.

Ok I think this is the longest post I have made in a very long time, but since it was Deja and Vu I feel very strongly about researching this as much as I can and reading any information I can to learn as much as I can.

Last edited by K & D Exotics; 02/24/09 01:32 AM.

Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #740244
02/24/09 09:06 AM
02/24/09 09:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
C
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict
CharmedSuggies  Offline
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C

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
Is there a certain test I should get done on my babies to find out if they have any liver problems before symptoms occur?

Should I get this test done period?

I don't feed BML but HPW. Three of mine were on BML for alittle while before switching to HPW. The other three have been on HPW from the beginning and have not changed.


Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740250
02/24/09 09:31 AM
02/24/09 09:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Blood work would be the way to at least test liver values, but drawing blood is basically impossible.

I am asking that no one jumps on a wagon and up and switch diets, please everyone read and study a diet before switching. That is not really what this post is about.

Danielle, excellent post!!! We do not know what is the best diet for our gliders. For all we know, certain diets may be right on while others are not. Just because someone who has been around for a long time says feed this, doesn't always mean you should.

Who knows, a diet that has been around for a while which we all thought was the best thing back than could be bad. Kinda like the FDA saying hey here is a new super drug to fix all, it has some side effects but its worth it. 5-10 years down the line line long term usage shows devastating results and further damage to the body and organs.

Is it possible, that a diet (and I am not speaking of any certain diet) can cause genetic issues? Yes!! Iron deficiency as well as Iron overload do have genetic components.

If that is true, it would suggest that we may be starting to see the long term affects from diets. Each generation can gradually be worse. Could this be why we are seeing gliders dying younger and younger, yes it could.



Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740253
02/24/09 09:35 AM
02/24/09 09:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,837
Florida
BindiAndScrubbie Offline
Glider Slave
BindiAndScrubbie  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,837
Florida
Mine were on BML and stopped eating it...I since changed to HPW. But I had wondered before, if some gliders refuse BML, after eating it for a period of time, because they KNOW it is not giving their bodies what they need...or perhaps that it is giving their bodies too much of something. Just a thought that ran through me a time or two..

As far as HPW...could we not just subtract a tbls or two from the recipe? Or does this throw stuff off balance?


Davie

:rtmo:SpoiledRottenSuggies.com

Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy - Anne Frank
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: BindiAndScrubbie] #740255
02/24/09 09:40 AM
02/24/09 09:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
C
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict
CharmedSuggies  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
That is a good question Davie on the HPW but most people are concerned about the 1 1/2 cups of honey. That is alot of honey. Does the HPW need that much honey?

How does all that honey help the gliders system? or does it?

Does the bee pollen have a play in it?


Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740256
02/24/09 09:41 AM
02/24/09 09:41 AM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Here is the diet study you were referring to Eddie, I saved it awhile back after you posted it.....
http://www.glidercentral.net/images/4245-SugarGliderDietStudy.pdf

I have alot to say on this issue but will be back, got to get some work done. smile

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740259
02/24/09 09:55 AM
02/24/09 09:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
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Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
As far as HPW, many people cut out some of the honey and sub unsweetened applesauce - it's just not posted here because everyone gets spanked for "not sticking to the diet as written."

My question, which I've thought a lot about is are we maybe giving TOO MUCH vitamins? I've had many, many animals in my lifetime and have never used a vitamin supplement with any. Why do we do this with gliders? Just curious, don't know if there is even an answer.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: BindiAndScrubbie] #740260
02/24/09 09:58 AM
02/24/09 09:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
On the HPW box, it does say if using to replace high protein cereal, you only need to use half of the HPW due to higher protein and higher concentration.

Personally I feed the 1/8th cup the PML calls for where as HPW diet has you use 1/4. The increase may be good during breeding season, but it may not be good all year long.

PML calls for 1 ounce, that means 1 Ounces = 0.125 Cups which is 1/8th

HPW calls for 1/4 cup= 2 ounces. HPW is using twice the amount of HPW in it's diet which very well may be too much as well.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740261
02/24/09 09:59 AM
02/24/09 09:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Thank you Tammy, I meant to post that last night but got side tracked :X


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740262
02/24/09 10:04 AM
02/24/09 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
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CharmedSuggies Offline
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CharmedSuggies  Offline
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Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79
HPW calls for 1/4 cup= 2 ounces. HPW is using twice the amount of HPW in it's diet which very well may be too much as well.


If that might be a possible case Eddie, if using the HPW already, is it ok to try the PML to try and reduce the amt of HPW being used?

Or just as you were saying earlier, don't change the diet?

Have there been any further studies on the HPW to help with this issue?


Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740334
02/24/09 12:35 PM
02/24/09 12:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,943
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,943
Wisconsin
I switched from BML to HPW a couple months back, I just couldn't stomach the chicken and gravy baby food. I couldn't believe that people fed that to their children and I couldn't see feeding it to gliders. I wanted something that was better than highly processed baby food diet.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740335
02/24/09 12:36 PM
02/24/09 12:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
For those following this thread:
This is a discussion, not a diet bash and there is NO reason to switch diets, etc. or be fearful. We just do not know enough regarding diets yet to say that.

This post is to raise awareness.
Years back, there were those that wanted to diet bash and went about it all wrong. New era now! GC WELCOMES good discussion so let's move forward!


The newer diets...gliders haven't been on them long enough to know any long term effects. It could be something in ALL the diets, or the sugars, or the veggies, or the fruit.......

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #740349
02/24/09 12:59 PM
02/24/09 12:59 PM

P
peem
Unregistered
peem
Unregistered
P



I have only been a glider mom for 2 months now. After reading these posts I am very concerned as I too feed my lil one bml. I do not plan to change his diet at this time simply because it was extremely difficult to get him to eat anything since he had a few health issues when I got him and was far too young as far as I am concerned to be taken from his mother. It just saddens me that we think we are doing the absolute best for our babies and the truth is we just dont know for sure. When I first brought my glider home he was on a pelleted diet and I read in many places it had no nutritional value, not that he was eating it any way. So after trying numerous different things including glider crack...I mixed up some bml and my baby started to thrive, gain weight and GROW! I am nervous now as I am sure all of us bml people are but all I can do for myself is read and learn. I hope someday this is something we no longer need to worry about. I thank god for this website every day because this is where I come to gather and store all my information about these little fuzzies and again I learned something new although not exactly what anyone would like to learn as someone out there has lost their babies. Please keep the information coming.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740631
02/24/09 10:53 PM
02/24/09 10:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,400
Tulsa, OK, USA
S
SweetGliders Offline
Glider Slave
SweetGliders  Offline
Glider Slave
S

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,400
Tulsa, OK, USA
First off I would like to say to Karin, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your Deja Vu and I am sending healing prayers and hugs your way. hug2 hug2 hug2


My question:
I know we have alot of glider owners out there. Is there a chance we can find out who has maybe been around the longest, what diet they have used with their babies and if they have had any gliders die and have with neocropsy results to get a starting point?

Also maybe owners who babies are on the other diets, like HPW, Pricilla's, Suncoast, etc.... can post what is the longest they have had gliders & which diet they use and if anyone has lost gliders with neocropsy results?

I know I just lost one of my babies to renal kidney failure. So I am trying to figure out What I could have done wrong. Her neocropsy report will be placed on the board for others to view.

I know I have had gliders for over 9 + years and when I first started out my gliders were on the Mazuri pellets, vegetables and fruit. After reading about diets and finding GC I switched my babies to the BML diet and they all did great. Then about 2 years ago my babies stopped eating the BML so I tried them on several different diets and they seemed to prefer the HPW diet so I slowly switch them over. All, but 2 pairs are on the HPW diet. The two pairs are still on the BML diet.

Anita heart


Anita heart
www.mysweetgliders.com

Owned by many Gliders & Cats + Wife to a Wonderful & Understanding Husband

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: SweetGliders] #740674
02/24/09 11:58 PM
02/24/09 11:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Peem I wanted to say that I think you are doing the best thing for your baby right now. If he is thriving on BML then by all means leave him on BML. Right now there are no definite answers to any of these diets so the best anyone can do right now is do the research they can and pick the best diet for their baby. One thing I want to point out about what you did is you found a diet your baby would actually eat and enjoy. Let's face it if our babies are not eating the diet we choose for them they are not getting any of the nutrients anyway so why bother. You are better off switching to a diet that they will actually eat and this means even if it is not the diet we feel is best I think. If we know a diet is bad and it causes such things as cancer then I would say do not feed it no matter what, but right now we don't have these facts on any diet. So what you did was listen to your gliders needs and that is the best anyone can do right now.
I mean if you look at BML and say ok it is high in iron (so are plenty of others out there if not all. I don't have stats) or it is to high in sugar (I also believe we could say that about a few others as well). You see what I mean. It isn't just one diet. BML did get brought into question because that is what Vu and Deja were on and so were their parents. So yes we do need to look at BML more closely, but that does not mean we do not need to look at the other diets out there as well. I am sure we all can agree to this.
I really hope that these discussions can continue as we find information that may be pertinent. I don't think anyone should be afraid to bring information to the board that they think may be something we should all take a closer look at. We should never bash anyone for trying to find reasons for all the things that are happening with the gliders. So I am really looking forward to being able to participate or start discussions like this one. This post brings up many questions and if you can think of a question that we need to look at by all means bring it to te board. I think the more questions we have the better. That is how we find out what is wrong. If we don't have questions we definitely do not get to the answers.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #740711
02/25/09 12:43 AM
02/25/09 12:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
I'm so sorry for your losses *hugs*

This forum as gotten me curious more than anything. I've been reading everyone posts. Maybe with the gallbladder issues (that Danielle said) if you use the bml (since it calls for 2 teaspoons of that calcium ) maybe we should watch out how many yogurt drops you give them (if you do) since that has calcium in it as well. Even the lickly yogurt treats. Plus I have a rabbit and I've been reading on them (a bit) and your really suppose to give them sparingly once week since they are high in sugar or fat. but they have a totally different digestive system, but then again so do we and our sugar gliders.

I have a question, what makes the bml so high in iron? Maybe we can reduce it. I'm not really sure, just throwing some ideas out there. I feed my gliders the BML and they are eating at least half of what I give them.

Maybe reduce how much honey we give them. I still think a half cup is a lot of honey. I hope Iím kind of helping even though their isnít really an answer just yet.

I also agree with the fact that you are doing the best you can when you find the diet that your babies would eat. Like what Danielle stated. We even eat the stuff that we really is bad for us like fast food. Well most people. We don't eat everything at the buffet as well. We pick out our favorite things that we enjoy.

Man I hope I didn't upset anyone.


:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, with Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #740721
02/25/09 12:49 AM
02/25/09 12:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Not reading everything just yet - only a quick comment here...

The yogurt drops we give gliders are not really yogurt. High in sugar, but not much else!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome] #740727
02/25/09 12:53 AM
02/25/09 12:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Ah maybe that plays a factor since it's high in sugar.

Last edited by Kage; 02/25/09 12:55 AM.

:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, with Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #740732
02/25/09 12:59 AM
02/25/09 12:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
The frequent extra treats such as the drops is something that has bothered me for years.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740738
02/25/09 01:04 AM
02/25/09 01:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
I haven't really given mine any treats. They are happy with the mealworms I give them or when I hand them some corn. They think it's the best thing ever.


:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, with Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740740
02/25/09 01:05 AM
02/25/09 01:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
I personally have owned gliders since 1992, I have seen diets change a lot. I have never fed my gliders sweets, treats here are worms. The gliders love them and insects are part of their natural diets.

I love this thread guys, keep it going. If we all come together I think we will find what is killing our glider prematurely.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Adri] #740754
02/25/09 01:25 AM
02/25/09 01:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Treats definately need to be considered. You have to know what is in the diet you are feeding as far as ratios. I know this is hard information to get, but even if you can just find out that hey this is high in iron. Well then you would know not to feed any treats that could make that higher. Along with any vegetables that would make that higher in their dinner. You might even want to compensate by giving oranges as a treat or strawberries. They are both high in Vitamin C. I think we need to just look at what we are feeding ourselves right now. I was never a bit treat feeder when I bred gliders. I always gave mealies or crickets as treat. Back then I did feed BML. Now I do have to say I feed treats. I do not feed a lot of treats as I know they won't eat their dinner too well if they get too much. So I also have to look at what I am feeding to see if there are any treats that could actually help rectify something in their diet. Like adding fruits high in vitamin c as treats or in their dinner so that they do not become vitamin c deficient.
I don't see why anyone would get upset with that post. I know there are those of us that love to feed treats galore, but to each his own. You brought up a great point though. treats are always a factor in anyone's diet. I would lose all sorts of weight if I got off of my treats. LOL My doctors would love that.
Really good topic. This could lead us to giving different types of treats to compensate for defects in the diet we are feeding or just feed those things in their dinners more often.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #740790
02/25/09 02:53 AM
02/25/09 02:53 AM

C
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
C



First I want to say how truly sorry for the loss of your glider.

The discussion is very useful in regards to diets and impact on health of gliders.

I used to feed BML and was very effective for our malnourished and sick rescues that we took in several years ago. They got better on this diet quickly. Problem was many of my gliders were gaining weight and the only thing we could associate with was the BML. We made the decision to switch over to the Sugar Glider Exotic diet (Priscillas diet). We have found this diet to be very effective diet.

There could be a multitude of reasons causing problems with the liver. One of the jobs the liver performs is filters/detoxifies blood coming from the the digestive tract, before passing it to the rest of the body. It also produces substances that break down fats, convert glucose to glycogen, make certain amino acids, storage of vitamins and minerals (vitamins A, D, K and B12) and maintain a proper level or glucose in the blood. Gliders are not used to preservatives and other substances that we use in our foods. Consider what they eat in the wild then compare to what we feed (obviously we cannot duplicate their dietary requirements 100%). We can only assume that what we are doing is in the best interest of the glider. Based on the fact that many gliders have lived long and happy lives on existing, proven diets, shows that some of these diets are doing something right.

My theory is that the high sugar content, preservatives, sugary treats, improper ratios, improper qty's, plays a significant role in affecting the liver and other organs in Sugar Gliders. I felt the PP diet was a better diet for my gliders; contained less sugar, did not appear to have the same amount of preservatives and supported my gliders health. We use supplements, but we are cautious with the usage (this is subjective due to the lack of information out there on supplements impact on glider health). I agree with a comment in regards to the use of supplements. I feel the vegetables, fruits, and the staple diet should contain much of the nutrients that the glider needs (along with the mealworms and other feeder insects we feed).

I always felt we should duplicate natural diets to the best of our ability based on information currently available. We can't do this 100%, but, to better understand and support their nutritional requirement is important.

We are still learning much about diets. There are still stories out there that grapes can cause kidney failure in gliders. At one point they were considered safe, maybe they still are, I don't know. But the interesting question is why is this an issue?

I think as time goes on that diets will become more and more refined. I hope that over time that combined knowledge and assistance of veterinary community; diets will improve more and more over time.

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740809
02/25/09 04:19 AM
02/25/09 04:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

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Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
I am sooo excited to read this thread. I have tried to start something like this a couple times and always seem to be stopped somehow. I feed a rotating diet composed of a couple different things and everytime I mention it I get told its a no-no. But when you feed the same thing over and over that is how toxins build up and deficiencies start. I am told that cats need to be fed the same food over and over (Wrong IMO). and dogs never to get table scraps (wrong Again). but All of my pets have been long lived (thank you God!) and no health problems and vets are pleased with their health. My gliders eat all the dinner I put out everyday. I have only had them since Nov. but they are doing VERY well. I was told not to rotate as they will get picky. but they seem to really like what I am doing. And I have cut back on supplements alot! I try to find natural forms of calcium rather that powder to add to food (like NATURAL maple syrup-just a tad watch the sugars)well...gotta go to work perhaps I will add more later


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740824
02/25/09 07:08 AM
02/25/09 07:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

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Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Crafts_Critters
We are still learning much about diets. There are still stories out there that grapes can cause kidney failure in gliders. At one point they were considered safe, maybe they still are, I don't know.


Chad - grapes are proven toxic in other animals (dogs, skunks). They haven't been proven toxic in sugar gliders for the simple fact we haven't had any gliders get into a large batch of them and die. I will not feed grapes. I dont trust them. If you give your gliders small amounts, the toxicity could be building up in their systems. Just my opinion of course.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #740832
02/25/09 07:37 AM
02/25/09 07:37 AM

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Crafts_Critters
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Crafts_Critters
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Chad - grapes are proven toxic in other animals (dogs, skunks). They haven't been proven toxic in sugar gliders for the simple fact we haven't had any gliders get into a large batch of them and die. I will not feed grapes. I dont trust them. If you give your gliders small amounts, the toxicity could be building up in their systems. Just my opinion of course.

Jeannine;

There is a story regarding a vet that had several gliders die over a period of time.

It was determined -based on discussions with the owner(s)- that the deaths were possibly linked to grapes that were fed to them.

I have to find the story but I did remember reading about it then discussed the topic with another breeder in Florida.

But, it was not concrete proof that grapes are toxic to gliders. Sorry so vague. I can't remember all the points of the discussion.

I haven't fed grapes to my gliders since the issue came up.

Chad

Last edited by Crafts_Critters; 02/25/09 07:39 AM.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #740844
02/25/09 08:16 AM
02/25/09 08:16 AM

T
TWilson
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Two days before Christmas, I lost my little Dolly. She was fine and then she wasn't, she stopped eating HPW but ate the other parts of the diet, and she just wasn't acting her usual perky self...she started sleeping more. I had her at the vet 3 times within a week and nothing could be found. First for a check, then a couple of days later for a recheck and that time the vet decided (at my insistance) to put her on antibotics, and then a couple of days later. At that time the vet said to give the antibotics a couple of more days to get into her system, and if I saw no improvement, we'd do blood work......my Dolly died the very next day sleeping in my bra. frown

Her necropsy showed a massive liver tumor on the underside of her liver (she never had any signs of jaundice) along with nodules all over her liver, the vet was floored and I was a mess.
Dolly was not a rescue, I'd had her since she was 8 weeks old, she came to me on BML and I switched her over to HPW. Dolly was only 15 months old when she died.

Because of this, I started looking at EVERYTHING, her death and the cause of it consumed me. It was suggested to me by another member that they wondered if this could have been caused by aflatoxins, my vet said no. He said if that was the case, I would not only have lost her but several others as well.

The more I looked and researched as to possible causes, I kept coming back to fructose and the effects of feeding a diet high in it. A diet too high in fructose can cause a condition called, "non alcoholics liver disease." It will affect the liver in the same way alcohol does, it will shoot the liver and cause tumors and nodules.

I wondered why if this was the case, why it only affected my Dolly. Was it because she was a petite little girl and it was too much and do my other gliders have ticking time bombs within them too. To say I am a little worried is an understatement, but this is due to the fact I am eat up with guilt over Dolly's death, why couldn't I see it sooner or why couldn't I have done something different?!?!? The whys and not knowing are terrible!

I know our gliders are "Sugar gliders" because they like sweet things, however just because they like it doesn't mean they should eat sweet things. I can be a called a Sugar Mama for the same reason, I love sweets but know they are not good for me and I watch my consumption with them.

Gliders do NOT get the amount of fructose that we feed in the wild. Yes, they feed off nectars and sap, however nectars are seasonal, and the sap from a tree is NOT sweet. Take maple syrup for instance, when it comes from the tree, there is nothing sweet about it. It has to be cooked down and condensed to get its sweet taste.

Alot of the diets call for honey, honey is a condensed form of sugar and it is high in fructose. In the back of my mind, I felt I was feeding them too much in the HPW. I could see it in their appearance, all of mine gained weight and a couple are now chunky because of it.

Also, I read more and more about gliders no longer eating fruit when they are on HPW. Is this because gliders are trying to regulate themselves with the fructose, they instinctivly know they are consuming too much? Animals will self regulate in the wild, in captivity they can only do that so much.

This is my theory and my opinion from MY research. I am not saying to stop what you are feeding, only talk to your vet and research for yourselves. All to often we get too comfortable in what we feed, or feed it because we are told to, after all we like easy. Unfortunately diets are that that easy, whatever we feed we need to take into consideration what we feed along with it, fruits and veggies need to be looked at for calcium to phosphorus ratios, if they are balanced our diet isn't.

diet is not as easy as we'd like to think it is, however it is not rocket science either. We just need to learn as much as we can and educate ourselves to the needs of our little ones. I know I learned the hard way, and again that will be the guilt I'll carry everyday but at the same time, I am hoping and trying to do the best for my other babies.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740857
02/25/09 09:33 AM
02/25/09 09:33 AM

M
moorie999
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moorie999
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Wow ... first time I've been on here for ages, and what an interesting discussion! And it's good to see it's not turned in to a blazing row ... smile

I'm sorry for those of you that have lost your gliders, I really am! Tammy, would you post the necropsy results on SGF please?

In the UK the high sugar diets (leadbeater mixes) have not been fed for many years because of the high sugar content.




Last edited by moorie999; 02/25/09 09:33 AM.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740860
02/25/09 10:07 AM
02/25/09 10:07 AM

T
TWilson
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TWilson
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T



I will Marie, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact about not feeding honey or other sugars in the UK.

I was just going to reference that and the fact that liver issues over there are not common.

Also, I wanted to point out that as far as the aflatoxin issue, I do NOT feed anything that aflatoxins would be present. I only feed organic fruits and veggies and wash them thoroughly.

Glad to see you back Marie!!!!!! smile

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740871
02/25/09 11:04 AM
02/25/09 11:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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hwh4ev  Offline
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roseville, mi
hi everybody,
this is a very good subject. i feed my 2 gliders the suncoast diet, no treats except organic low fat blueberry yogurt maybe 1 tsp. every 2 weeks. i have never fed honey or maple syrup to my gliders.
my concern is with the vitamins. suncoast calls for calcium without the vit d3 because it is in the vionate. but the vionate has iron in it and i always feel uneasy when i sprinkle it on their fruits and veggies because i do not take any vitamins with iron in it because it stays in your system and can build up. i was thinking of dropping the vionate vits. before this subject even came up.
now on another note i just bought some organic raw honey (without comb) because i was going to mix a little with their boiled egg and a few mothers oats for a different protien food. this will be part of their dinner on sundays and sundays only. i read abt. the organic raw honey and it is loaded with vits./min.
so when i feed this on sundays they will not get any other vits/min. or calcium.
like i said i feel in my gut that giving my sugar gliders this vionate is wrong, i am going to stop giving it to them altogether because they eat all organic (except for soft suncoast pellets).
my sugar will be 2 yrs in july and rocky will be 1 yr. in july. so far they are in good health (knock on wood).
i also feed them smart water or fiji which both have minerals in it, no tap water at all.

i am sorry abt. the loss of these little ones and hope something can be found out abt. these liver problems.

regards,
nancy

Last edited by hwh4ev; 02/25/09 11:11 AM. Reason: clarify something

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740875
02/25/09 11:14 AM
02/25/09 11:14 AM

C
Crafts_Critters
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Crafts_Critters
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C



Quote:
The more I looked and researched as to possible causes, I kept coming back to fructose and the effects of feeding a diet high in it. A diet too high in fructose can cause a condition called, "non alcoholics liver disease." It will affect the liver in the same way alcohol does, it will shoot the liver and cause tumors and nodules.

I wondered why if this was the case, why it only affected my Dolly. Was it because she was a petite little girl and it was too much and do my other gliders have ticking time bombs within them too. To say I am a little worried is an understatement, but this is due to the fact I am eat up with guilt over Dolly's death, why couldn't I see it sooner or why couldn't I have done something different?!?!? The whys and not knowing are terrible!


Tammy;

Are you referring to fatty liver disease or nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) in the above statement? Can a glider develop this disease?

You have no reason to feel guilty about what you fed them. In many cases unfortunately, an animal will not show any signs of illness; especially when your dealing with tumors and cancers (same with humans). It is noted that their several widely used and effective glider diets out there; BML being one of them. You, like a lot of other glider owners used BML. It has worked for many. I use a different diet from BML.

The fact that not every sugar glider you have has been impacted does not necessarily mean that they are ticking time bombs. Their bodies and organs probably react the same way we do to diseases, especially when it comes down to tumors and other forms of cancer. Their bodies may be more adapt to handling filtering of toxins vs another glider. It may be the amount of toxin built up over a certain period of time.

My grandfather smoked like a chimney all of his life. He died from colon cancer. Never developed lung cancer. The question you pose is similar to questions patients pose to their doctor; it's the million dollar question(s). What caused this disease? Why did it happen? The answer is always the same from doctors and a former vet: "If I could answer those questions, then I can find a cure and retire."

Problem is when we get into those aspects of why a chemical, mineral, or whatever, causes a disease in one animal and not the other; no one can really give a definitive answer without further research.

There is another thing that some people may want to consider: the impact of regular tap water. Tap water contains "acceptable" levels of contaminates and other chemicals that are set to levels that make it safe for us to drink. It's possible that this could be a factor? It wouldn't be consistent because everyones tap water may contain different levels of chemical or contaminates in the drinking water.

The other factor is the food we feed is obviously high in sugar for some diets. Then there is the preservatives used in those foods. What impact does it have on gliders? The supplements, again, what impact would this have on gliders?

I find these questions and this type discussion very interesting. The hope that this research project being discuss launches with massive participation would be a great step forward.

Because when you start looking and seeing through necropsy's that gliders are being found with liver problems on a widespread basis as being the cause of death then this can lead veterinarians and others to possibly narrowing down a possible culprit or contributing factor to this problem. End result; eliminating that risk factor from the diet (should it be a dietary issue).

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740883
02/25/09 11:38 AM
02/25/09 11:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I also wanted to bring up that I do feel it is important to know the approximate amounts of certain vitamins, fructose, protein, etc.. in the wild. Then we need to look at each thing and see how it would benefit them in the wild.
Our gliders do not live in the wild so there may be things they no longer need, things they need more of, and things they need less of.

For example: The sap and nectar that they take in in the wild could have a lot to do with the amount of energy they need to sustain their life. I realize there are also nutrients in there we need to look at, but we also have to admit sugary things give us extra energy. In the wild they have to evade predators, make sure they have places to live, sleep, etc.., breed and multiply, and hunt down their food. This would take a lot of energy to sustain. They are probably getting more fructose type things in our houses and they do not have to do hardly any of these things. Yes we try to get te largest cages we can and do out of cage play time, but even with this they are not running off the same amount of energy.

So I really think we need to see how much information we can get about what they eat in the wild and why they need it there and decide if they need it in domestic situations and how much more or less of it is required.
I totally agree they are getting too much sugar and this is most likely a cause of many cancer related deaths. I am sure this is not the only thing some of the diets out there have too much of, but people (vets, breeders, and your average glider owner) will modify what diets they have created if they have the information that certain things need adjusted. All the people out there creating these diets have put a great deal of thought behind them.
That is why people discussing these issues is so important as sometimes it takes a different point of view on something or facts we don't know about to get things perfected.

Like the grapes. When we bred years ago we were always told to feed at least 2 grapes a week per glider so that they wouldn't get constipated due to the fact there was a lot of iron in the diet. I did not realize there was new information out there on grapes specifically.
Is there something people are giving in place of the grapes to make sue they do not get constipated? I would think watery fruits and living skins on (washed well) so they get more fiber would work pretty well. Definately pay attention to this if you are feeding a diet known to have iron supplements in it.

I am loving this discussion and can't wait to hear more!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740889
02/25/09 11:47 AM
02/25/09 11:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
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LabNGliderMom  Offline
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Posts: 3,753
Florida
I have to say one thing... my two were on a pellet diet until I found GC and began to research diets... I chose HPW because of the ease of preparation and storing and also because of the availability of the ingredients and supplements.

My gliders also get mealworms... a few for each of them every morning and sometimes I hide a couple of yogies, some dried fruit, or some apple berry treats from Exotic Nutrition in their foragers.

Their fruit and veggies are often served in the form or glider relish and glider smoothies... which are frozen in ice cube trays and then put in their dish to thaw as they munch on it over night.

My gliders always looked and seemed healthy to me before... but AFTER I switched to HPW... their coats became silkier and softer, my female lost the fur stains she had come to me with and now looks great, they were both more energetic and my female suddenly became more friendly, and after less than 2 months on the new diet, my female has a joey IP and NEVER managed that feat prior to the diet change. Therefore, I was THRILLED with all of the changes after I put them on the new diet.

I never gave much thought to the honey used in the HPW, the relish, or the smoothie mix until I read this thread. Now I have to wonder... is all the sugar really necessary? Scout has put on weight... and I was GLAD to see that at first because I always looked at everyoneís pics on GC and wondered why my Scout was so lithe compared to the more stout gliders of my friends on GC... and my personal friends, as well... their Gliders were all larger than Scout, too... Now he is still NO WHERE near as large as some of the gliders I have seen... but he HAS developed a few FOLDS on HANGING FAT on his underside since the diet change.
HOWEVER I am not yet ready to blame this on the HPW... I have a feeling it is the mealies and yogies he steals from Gracie that may be more to blame in this case...

At any rate, isn't there ANY way to find a diet that can provide them with adequate and appropriate NUTRITION for LONG and HEALTHY lives WITHOUT excessive SUGAR or TOXINS or the POSSIBILITY of health issues? The answer is YES... with a database comprised of birth records, death records, necropsy records, vet records, mating records, weight tracking, joey tracking, diet records, etc... we CAN begin to put together models that provide us with PATTERNS so we can (down the road) determine the BEST of not only diets to feed but ALL THINGS related to glider care so that we can provide our furry babies with MUCH better care.

HUMAN CHILDREN started out the SAME WAY; you know... no database meant no records and high infant mortality rates. Once the data started being collected and analyzed, the mortality rate dropped DRAMATICALLY because there was a LINK to certain causes of deaths that could EASLIY be remedied but were not known before the data was collected and studied and reports released. IT WILL TAKE TIME but WE CAN DO IT... FOR THE GOOD OF THE GLIDERS!


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: LabNGliderMom] #740900
02/25/09 12:12 PM
02/25/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Critter Creations  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I totally agree with you LabnGliderMom. It will take a while and that's not saying we cant make changes as we find things out and do that up until we have it down. All animal diets have went through this process. Problem is that the sugar glider community has to be willing to do more things to help out. They do need to weigh their gliders at least on a monthly basis and record what diet they are on, what their weight is, are they breeding well (if that is what you are doing), do they look good and healthy, if they do pass away get the necropsy, etc.. If people are willing to do all this it would really help with this process. We shouldn't just do these things for research, but also so we know what is going on with our own gliders. Years ago we didn't have a whole lot of vets in our community at all and there wasn't much research being done out there in a professional manner really. At least now we do have vets that are really digging in and doing the research and passing it on to us. That helps a great deal.

I do want to say that if you feed a particular diet you should feed that diet as it is instructed. Definitely do not pick out what you like about one diet and another diet and mix them together. These diets have been well thought out and do have the ratios where they should be. Now there are a few different options out there now so definitely study the ones out there and ask other owners that feed it what type of results they are getting with it. A few years ago there were not many diets to choose from. You do need to feed what you think is best for your gliders, but as I said before if they will not eat it then it isn't doing them any good.

I would just hate to see any gliders getting sick from them getting all the wrong ratios of everything and getting sick. I know right now I don't know why some things are in the diets that are out there and if you don't know why it is there definitely find out. Choosing a diet is definitely worth the research. We have to feel as comfortable as possible with what we feed. I do have to admit it seems the average weight of a glider has increased since I was away. My gliders seem so much smaller compared to everyone else's at least thus far. I know years ago my smallest female was 69 grams, but that was a healthy weight. I had a male that was around 170 and he was considered rather large back then. I think my joeys were on average 48 grams (I am relying on my memory here, which isn't great LOL) when they left here at 8 weeks oop so it does seem weird to have them weigh close to that at 4 weeks oop now. Things have really changed a great deal in the weight area over the years. I don't think in all cases it is a good thing. I have to admit they are cute, but we have to ask ourselves how healthy are they.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #741000
02/25/09 03:28 PM
02/25/09 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
In answer to Danielle asking for a substitute for grapes ... how does anyone feel about using watermelon? when Frodo was dehydrated (badly)and wouldnt go potty and wouldnt drink pedialyte and was lethargic ...too much to even drink, I mixed for him water(for obvious reasons) honey (quick energy boost and tastes good) and juice from a watermelon (fresh not bottled) within an hour or so he was a normal pooping boy! vet said "great job and good idea!" why watermelon? dont know, i guess instinct God gave me said to do it and it worked.
In response to the person who said they wouldnt use NATURAL maple syrup...(sorry forgot where I saw it)maple syrup is low in fructose and higher in sucrose. so if fructose was a concern...also in 100 grams of honey there is 82.4 grams of sugar whereas maple syrup has 59.5... so less sugar!! and the maple syrup has the added benefit as alot of calcium. so how about cut back on the honey...get rid of the calcium supplements alltogether and add a LITTLE bit of maple syrup. I really dont understand why so many think this is abad idea and no one can still come up with a good reason why its bad. remember I am talking NATURAL here and NOT log cabin.
personally I feed my gliders a rotating diet, again I am told No No many times here. but when I read everything here on THIS thread I am more determined to stick to my diet plan as it makes for great variety and removes alot of the concerns of too much honey, toxins adding up, etc, etc.
I feed BML every other day (3 times a week). In between I rotate between 4 DIFFERENT pelleted diets which are ALWAYS softened with water before feeding. In addition: twice a week a tiny bit of yogurt and twice a week boiled chicken. every morning 2 mealworms and 3 crickets each (handfed as treats or training aids-they all come to their names!)NO Other treats! (I feel yogurt drops are candy so I dont use them). so when we want to feed a treat its a piece of friut or a bug. twice a week I also give them a "nectar" I mix up consisting of water, bee pollen and acacia gum with a TINY bit of maple syrup to make it taste better (they dont like the acacia gum...go figure)My vet read my diet and she likes it ALOT. there is plenty of variety, the gliders ALWAYS eat all of it and they are big (not fat) and so far healthy. Oh yeah! EVERYNIGHT they get a variety of mixed veg and/or fruit as the MAIN course. and never add supplements to the fruit or pellets. the only supplements is what is in the BML.
also when I mix the BML i do not use quite as much calcium as suggested. and I NEVER use the reptile vitamins. each animal needs nutrients in a different form and reptiles metabolize differently than mammals...I cant help but think this was taken into consideration when they were manufactured but I could be wrong. when I was young we used to give the chickens crushed oyster shells as a calcium supplement but I sure wouldnt feed that to my gliders! maybe they dont do that on chicken farms any more with the advance of knowledge (anyone get the irony in that?) just because its been done that way so long doesnt make it the best.
and I always use BOTTLED water. tap water especially in the winter can peak in chlorine levels and perhaps can hurt the delicate balance in their tiny little intestines?
I know I am new to this so am no expert but I have never been good at following the crowd. I am always searching for a better way. and so far I like the "cindy love" diet also, and do want to try HPW but would rotate it in and NOT rely on it all the time.


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #741018
02/25/09 04:08 PM
02/25/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics

I do want to say that if you feed a particular diet you should feed that diet as it is instructed. Definitely do not pick out what you like about one diet and another diet and mix them together. These diets have been well thought out and do have the ratios where they should be.


The problem with this is that we don't really know what the ratios are. None of these diets have been around for 30 years or anything. As time goes on, we may find that these diets are not appropriate for our gliders. As mentioned, the dietary requirements of wild sugar gliders are not the same as our now domesticated gliders. Through threads like this, we will start to learn what our gliders need. Liver disease is predominant in gliders all of a sudden - we need to figure out why, so we can adjust it. I'm not saying anyone should experiment with diets, as that could also be detrimental to your gliders, but we should definately discuss things like this.

I also have another thought - I know many of us have cages purchased from ebay - those powder coated ones - from what I've read they are made in China. The Chinese seem to be using toxic chemicals to make some of the stuff imported to the USA (pet food, children's toys) - I wonder if there is an issue there? Just food for thought.

Last edited by Gossamer; 02/25/09 04:10 PM.

Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #741034
02/25/09 04:29 PM
02/25/09 04:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Originally Posted By: JillMarie
In answer to Danielle asking for a substitute for grapes ... how does anyone feel about using watermelon?


If your glider is getting enough moisture in it's diet, it shouldn't be constipated. Fruit and Veggies have a high moisture content - that with their regular water bottles should be enough. All animals have a tendency to adjust to their diets.

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
personally I feed my gliders a rotating diet, again I am told No No many times here. but when I read everything here on THIS thread I am more determined to stick to my diet plan as it makes for great variety and removes alot of the concerns of too much honey, toxins adding up, etc, etc.


That is your poragative. But with switching so muct, there is no guarentee your gliders are getting the right nutrition or ratios. At least with the proven diets, ratios have been worked out. Do you know if your gliders are getting the right amount of calcium on, say the days you don't feed BML? You probably don't. How about enough protein?

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I always use BOTTLED water. tap water especially in the winter can peak in chlorine levels and perhaps can hurt the delicate balance in their tiny little intestines?


Now, I have no problem with bottled water, but I don't agree that tap is bad for them (or us). It's certainly not the common denomiator as the tap in California doesn't have the same concentration of chemicals as tap in New York. There are studies now saying bottle water isn't all it's cracked up to be and some concern over the plastic bottles it is stored in.

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I know I am new to this so am no expert but I have never been good at following the crowd. I am always searching for a better way.


It's good that you care enought about your gliders to listen and learn. Some people just slap some pellets in a dish and call that dinner.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741036
02/25/09 04:36 PM
02/25/09 04:36 PM

D
DelilahsMom
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I have to disagree with LabNGlidermom about infant mortality. Those rates were VERY high due to the lack of knowledge with medical asepsis. Doctors did not believe in washing hands or being "clean". A doctor would do an autopsy in the morgue and then rush upstairs to deliver a baby. Thus, spreading deadly pathogens. Once universal precautions came around, infant mortality went WAY down. This holds very true in thrid world countries today where they lack proper clean water, gloves, etc.

But, back on topic, we do need to keep meticulous records about our gliders and get a database started.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741039
02/25/09 04:37 PM
02/25/09 04:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
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Marz  Offline
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Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: TWilson
I will Marie, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact about not feeding honey or other sugars in the UK.

I was just going to reference that and the fact that liver issues over there are not common.

Also, I wanted to point out that as far as the aflatoxin issue, I do NOT feed anything that aflatoxins would be present. I only feed organic fruits and veggies and wash them thoroughly.

Glad to see you back Marie!!!!!! smile


We feed a diet which includes an artificial nectar mix (ie. originally called leadbeaters) here in Australia and there have been no issues to note of liver disease from it. The Healesville Sanctuary microchips every glider and strictly monitors for health issues,weight on a weekly basis through the Australian Wildlife Health Centre based at the sanctuary. Their gliders have been on a diet with artificial nectar mix for decades now. After speaking to both vets and the keepers of the sugar gliders there, the only thing they have done is reduce the amount of honey as there have been a few incidences of tooth decay with their senior gliders! Along with that they offer more natural flora as well to enable better gum health and said that was essential if feeding any articifial nectar mix.

So what is the difference between an Australian diet and BML (and possibly other nectar based US diets)...more honey is the first. BML is based on the OLD diet with more honey. Secondly, there is water in the Aus diet instead of a fruit juice. We don't feed yoghurt or baby foods in our mix and the number of eggs have been reduced. We don't feed reptile vitamins.

Originally Healesville fed sustagen (similar to Boost not ensure) as the vitamin component of their nectar mix. They did change to bird vitamins only to streamline their diets. They said there was no health issues but with a large amount of animals being fed, streamlining diets can reduce the workload. I still use the sustagen by choice and recommendation of my vet who specialises in animal especially exotic and wildlife nutrition.


Now the big thing, we feed a TEASPOON of nectar mix per glider not a tablespoon recommended with BML.It is not the major part of the diet.

The Aus diet has a lot more veg than fruit now which in our case here includes more natural flora or if not available, more green leafy veg. Now fruit is interesting..a lot of vets here including ones that have worked for the sanctuary are now recommending less or even no fruit, and lots more vegetable to replicate the natural diet in the wild. For my 25 gliders, I still offer them some fruit, but they eat less than a tablespoon between them!! However, they happily munch through the variety of up to 20 veg every night. I only feed raw veg and never cooked. Many wildlife carers refuse to feed any fruit to their possums and gliders for a number of reasons which I wont go into here, but just enough to say, vegetables are highly recommended.

Now we have covered nectar mix, fruit and veg and that is basically where BML ends but with our diet here, we also feed a meatloaf (I make my own), a piece of high quality dog kibble each day and then we also feed almonds, hulled sunflower seeds, sprouted seeds, insects and a TINY bit of bee pollen etc as well as native branches and blossoms to nibble and chew on. I also personally feed other items as well but you can see where I am coming from generally. Moderation, less sugars and more variety is summing it up nicely.

Bottom note. I have only had one glider die (touch wood)and she came to me with severe health issues. Her diet was one her previous owner found on the internet and followed to a tee. The diet was BML.

I agree honey is a good addition to a sugar glider diet BUT it should be offered sensibly and not with a lot of other sugars especially other fructoses. I can honestly say, the US diets I have shown to vets here have comments ranging from "OMG will they ever learn" to "those diets are bad....way too sweet.". I have yet to find a vet here that will approve BML as a good diet for gliders here. I stress I am not bashing BML as at the time it was devised, it was done so with the best of intentions at heart. Time has moved on, diets have changed here too since BML began.

Maybe it's time, rather than run away from these diets such as BML, is to modify them again, back to less sugars and more variety. This might be the hidden key.

Anyway this is my opinion only but if Healesville Sanctuary is making the original diet work, then maybe it's time to really go back to basics!

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Marz] #741053
02/25/09 05:34 PM
02/25/09 05:34 PM
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Mims, Florida, USA
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Excellent post Marz. Thank you for sharing what our Aussie freinds are feeding.

Most of the US diets use the frozen mixed veggies. To me that has a lot of corn in it. I like the idea of leafy greens.


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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hushpuppy] #741060
02/25/09 05:45 PM
02/25/09 05:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Wow! If BML calls for 1/2 cup of honey and that is possibly too much where does that leave HPW with 1 & 1/2 cups? It's scary to think all the what ifs!


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Adri] #741062
02/25/09 05:57 PM
02/25/09 05:57 PM

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LB_Glider
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I like the idea of the leafy greens too - I especially like some of the Ca:Ph ratios of the greens, but I can't get any of mine to eat them. How do you get them to eat the leafy greens?

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741087
02/25/09 06:40 PM
02/25/09 06:40 PM

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Crafts_Critters
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"Gossamer posted: Now, I have no problem with bottled water, but I don't agree that tap is bad for them (or us). It's certainly not the common denomiator as the tap in California doesn't have the same concentration of chemicals as tap in New York. There are studies now saying bottle water isn't all it's cracked up to be and some concern over the plastic bottles it is stored in."


It was a theory to consider. What we eat and drink is healthy for us but may not be for gliders.

I know where we are we've received for the past 5 years that our water company has been in violation of EPA water quality.

It contained 2 elements/contaminants (one TTH's I believe) that is allowable in drinking water but at low levels. The TTH Its a byproduct of the chlorination process.

Our water company has exceeded these level of contaminates. Again these contaminates are allowable at certain levels by EPA.

The letter we get states that we are at no immediate risk. But as we read down the letter it states that prolonged exposure to these contaminates can affect the liver, kidney, central nervous system, and has been linked to cancer. If concerned, see a doctor (this letter came from our water company with the EPA test results).

Now with this said, their is an allowable amount of this contaminate in our drinking water. If the high levels of these contaminates can adversely impact us; it is probable to say that lower levels might impact gliders and other animals.

Now our situation is different and there is no real way to get around drinking water. But, it is a theory.

The issue about leafy greens has been a problem for us. They won't touch it. We're considering pureaing (spelling?) the collard or mustard greens and mix it in with the staple diet, fruits and vegetables to get them to at least get the calcium from the without the glider jusy tossing it out or licking whole leafs clean of the staple diet.

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741091
02/25/09 06:43 PM
02/25/09 06:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
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New Jersey
good thought about possability of poisoning from china cages!
thats's why I bought from King's cages!

Last edited by JillMarie; 02/25/09 06:47 PM.

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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741116
02/25/09 07:10 PM
02/25/09 07:10 PM

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TWilson
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Thank you so much for your post Marz!!!!! smile It was an excellent read!

Since learning of the possible issues of too much sugar, and honey is a highly concentrated form of sugar, I've modified what I feed as well.

I make a mix of Odwalla Superfood (it is a green thick juice, it has some fruit juices in it, like apple, mango, strawberry and banana puree, but it also contains wheat grass, barley grass, wheat sprouts) and I don't use much of it. To that, I add a tiny bit of bee pollen (pinch) water, egg, HPW powder (not much either) and honey (only a teaspoon and it is raw) I also add a product called Granular Greens for pets. It has wheat sprouts, barley and alfalfa and kelp. All good greens, high in calcium and good for liver function.

Here in the US, a good dog kibble is hard to find. A better choice over here is a good cat kibble. I am not talking Frisky's either, there are a couple of excellent ones that have no ash and the calicum to phosphorus ratio is almost perfect at 2:1, something that no pellet or kibble has here. I give mine a couple of pieces each, that is all.

I have been feeding more veggies and less fruit, but when I feed fruit it a good fruit like figs or papaya mainly. I also don't buy frozen mixed veggies, I buy fresh and organic and definetly feed more veggies.

My crew LOVES fresh collard greens, they are only in season through the winter months here in Florida, but I'll buy them up and freeze them like I do my Euc leaves. I tear them into pieces and serve them right up with their other veggies.

My vet is happy with my diet, I have to say my gliders are too. Only treats at my house are either pine nuts or raw almond pieces.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741219
02/25/09 09:46 PM
02/25/09 09:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Kage Offline
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Oregon
I've been thinking of this all day at school. I've gotten way to curious for my own good. I'm getting really worried about the high sugar issue like that honey the more and more I look over this topic. I'm beining to think that is one of the main factors. I really to come up with away to reduce the honey gradually in the bml diet (make it can be like half a teaspoon or not even in it at all). Or make my own diet with the right Ca:Ph ratios to make sure that they are getting what they need. Like how much protein, vitmins, and all of that stuff.

Maybe we are also giving them to much protein? Like the egg, the mealworms, and the chicken in the BML? I'm not really sure. This just popped up in my head.

I know my girls eat just a little bit of the BML anyways. Not even half of it. They mainly eat the veggies I put out for them. They really enjoy romane lettuce(I havent fed it to them in awhile though) One or both of them eats like one grape and they leave most of the fruit but all of the veggies are eaten.

Ok I do have to admit I actaully tried the BML. It's really sweet.

Marz, thanks for that post! It really got me interested and I enjoyed it a lot.

Tammy, your diet sounds really good for me to eat. laugh


:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, with Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hwh4ev] #741234
02/25/09 10:16 PM
02/25/09 10:16 PM

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Aryn
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Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
hi everybody,
this is a very good subject. i feed my 2 gliders the suncoast diet, no treats except organic low fat blueberry yogurt maybe 1 tsp. every 2 weeks. i have never fed honey or maple syrup to my gliders.
my concern is with the vitamins. suncoast calls for calcium without the vit d3 because it is in the vionate. but the vionate has iron in it and i always feel uneasy when i sprinkle it on their fruits and veggies because i do not take any vitamins with iron in it because it stays in your system and can build up. i was thinking of dropping the vionate vits. before this subject even came up.
now on another note i just bought some organic raw honey (without comb) because i was going to mix a little with their boiled egg and a few mothers oats for a different protien food. this will be part of their dinner on sundays and sundays only. i read abt. the organic raw honey and it is loaded with vits./min.
so when i feed this on sundays they will not get any other vits/min. or calcium.
like i said i feel in my gut that giving my sugar gliders this vionate is wrong, i am going to stop giving it to them altogether because they eat all organic (except for soft suncoast pellets).
my sugar will be 2 yrs in july and rocky will be 1 yr. in july. so far they are in good health (knock on wood).
i also feed them smart water or fiji which both have minerals in it, no tap water at all.

i am sorry abt. the loss of these little ones and hope something can be found out abt. these liver problems.

regards,
nancy


i feed my gliders the suncoast diet as well, and feel the same way about the vitamin and calcuim additives. i usually only sprinkle it on their food every other day, or i give them fruits or veggies with high calcium ratios i'll even hold off for longer (i know, probably not the best but i know too much vitamins and calcium isn't good in humans so i don't think it would be good for these little guys). the only treats i give is fresh fruits, or meal worms, and occasional yogurt, since it's an option for a source of protein.

hopefully over time we can figure out a common cause for liver issues, i don't want my babies to die of something i could have prevented!!

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741254
02/25/09 10:42 PM
02/25/09 10:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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roseville, mi
hi again,
i also read a news letter from suncoast that made me stop giving grapes/raisons to my gliders, rocky has never had a grape or raison.
my gliders do not like eggs or chicken so that is why i am going to try the organic raw honey on the eggs/chicken to see if they will eat it. they like some greens but i am going to buy more of a variety of greens.

i threw the gliderade and acacia gum out along time ago. i would like a receipe for some natural nectar they would get in the wild, does any body have a good receipe that isn't sugar loaded?

regards,
nancy

Last edited by hwh4ev; 02/25/09 10:44 PM. Reason: addition

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hwh4ev] #741257
02/25/09 10:49 PM
02/25/09 10:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
very interesting and all, especially on the fructose. I was browsing over the gliders @usnw site and came across a diet they use for captive sugar gliders.

check it out- the break down and what they use in their nectar mixes is very interesting.

http://www.gliders.science.unsw.edu.au/diets.htm


—ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741263
02/25/09 11:00 PM
02/25/09 11:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,943
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
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Wisconsin
Quote:
There is a story regarding a vet that had several gliders die over a period of time.

It was determined -based on discussions with the owner(s)- that the deaths were possibly linked to grapes that were fed to them.

I have to find the story but I did remember reading about it then discussed the topic with another breeder in Florida.

But, it was not concrete proof that grapes are toxic to gliders. Sorry so vague. I can't remember all the points of the discussion.

I haven't fed grapes to my gliders since the issue came up.


This may be considered a bit off topic, but a couple years ago a parrot rescue lost several parrots after feeding grapes as a treat, their daughter even got ill from eating the grapes. It was determined that it was an aflotoxin and the grapes were from Chile.

I still feed grapes in moderation, but I am very carefull about cleaning and sorting them. I do this watching tv, I will remove and inspect each grape, discarding any wrinkled, mushy or other grape that looks off. I wash them under warm to moderately hot water (my hands are comfortable in the hot water) I feed a couple to the parrots and I freeze the rest for the gliders. I rotate the fruit that my gliders get so they are recieving grapes every 5 days.

With any fresh fruit or vegetables that you feed to your pets you should take extra care in inspecting and cleaning the food. Their little bodies are more apt to react to a poison or aflatoxin before we would. they metabolize food differently from us. I believe it is the sugar in grapes and more so in raisins that are so toxic for dogs and it has to do with the way their liver works.

JMHO


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741265
02/25/09 11:01 PM
02/25/09 11:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 626
Oregon
Kage Offline
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Kage  Offline
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Oregon
Nancy (jacknsally), that diet is intersting but the brown sugar really worries me.


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Jennie RVT CVT, with Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #741270
02/25/09 11:05 PM
02/25/09 11:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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jacknsally  Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Kage
Nancy (jacknsally), that diet is intersting but the brown sugar really worries me.


looks like they've been offering that type of diet since 1999. a few of the high mentioned concerns mentioned here (fructose, grapes, raisins) are highly used portions of that diet.


—ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741427
02/26/09 07:22 AM
02/26/09 07:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Long Island, NY
Marz,

Would you post a typical daily diet that you use? I'm just curious about what an australian diet is like (for your gliders of course, LOL)


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741571
02/26/09 12:54 PM
02/26/09 12:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
Someone correct me if I am wrong...but isnt brown sugar cane sugar that isnt processed all the way? so rather than being FRUCTOSE (like honey) it's SUCROSE? whats the nutritional difference between sugars...how does the body use them differently?


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Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #741656
02/26/09 03:34 PM
02/26/09 03:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
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Sorry I haven't replied to the thread or all of the PM's but awkwardly I am in the middle of working 21 1/2 hrs in a 25 hr timeframe and I'm exhausted and just about to head off for the final 7 1/2 hrs of work! I will try and get back to this on the weekend.

Cheers.

PS. That diet mentioned on Adrian's thesis page with brown sugar is one that I do not know of anyone using amongst sugar glider owners here. You might want to ask him his basis for this recommendation.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741709
02/26/09 05:08 PM
02/26/09 05:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
BCChins Offline
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Central Connecticut
Originally Posted By: penniedad
i have my molly 3 yrs. old,,, she has liver problems , the vet. said there is nothing they can do ? my babydoll died of a huge tumor, molly is sicker,in my heart i know she will go to god soon, i just dont want her in pain, she never ate bml, the vet.asked me what she ate ,hpw, he said why so much honey in it ? to much, so i really wonder if anyone knows ? now i feed her chicken, fruits, veag,if shes leaves me, i will get a necropsie and send it

sorry for your losses, i know how much it hurts


KarenE had asked where Molly came from and what diet she was on. I will answer this as Pennie is under the weather.
Molly was a rescue who came from the RSPCA. We have no idea what diet or where she came from unfortunately. I THINK she may be a pet store glider who was on a pelleted diet but can not prove it. It was just the impression I got from the RSPCA. If anyone has any suggestions for Molly please PM them to me. The vet that Pennie went to did not have any treatments for her other then offering her what she will eat and keeping her happy. I am going to talk to my vet as well when I go in.


Have a Good Day
Brenda &
Mr. Magoo

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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #742330
02/27/09 07:37 PM
02/27/09 07:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
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sugarlope Offline
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in my happy place
I have moved the Australian diet discussion here so we can keep this thread on topic. Thank you. smile


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #742353
02/27/09 09:40 PM
02/27/09 09:40 PM

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meme05
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meme05
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M



I have only had my baby for a few weeks. He came to me on BML, and I have followed it exactly from day one. After reading the information at this website I can tell you I am throwing BML in the trash. They offer some very good alternatives, and there is a lot of really good info at this site. I found it when I was searching for Healesville. I hope some more experienced owners will read the info at this site, and let me know what you think.
www.glideruniversity.org/?p=87

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #742753
02/28/09 05:07 PM
02/28/09 05:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 659
Hernando, MS - USA
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Posts: 659
Hernando, MS - USA
Karen, I am so sorry you lost another of your gliders. Itís not easy losing a loved one whether itís before their time or when itís their time to go.

I have followed this thread closely because I have always worried about some of the diets and the amount of supplements that are in them. I donít know that any of what I am going to write will make any sense to anyone or not, but here goes. Some of it will be questions, so if you know the answers please chime in.

1. What is the lifespan of captive gliders in Australia? Since there is a difference in the gliders there and the ones in the U.S. (supposedly our gliders descend from ones that came mostly from India or somewhere like that), does that make any difference in the lifespan? From reading all the post by people in Australia, we know they do not use all the sweet stuff and supplements that are used here. Plus they have access to things that are in a gliderís natural diet. Do they use the Wambaroo High Protein Supplement in their diet? If they donít, why not?

2. How old was Babe (Bourbonís glider) at the time of death and what was the cause of death? We can assume she used the BML diet.

3. PacMan (Charlie and Mary Hís glider) lived to be 15 years plus some and he was not on an approved diet. PacMan was a rescue and if you ever get the chance (if itís available) you should read Maryís post about him after he died. Charlie never would share his diet because he was afraid a newbie might not understand enough about nutrition, etc. to use his diet. I know he used chicken, eggs, fruit and veggies, but have no idea what combination or how much of any. Until he lost some gliders to aflatoxin poisoning, he would feed them human grade peanuts as a treat. He was very passionate about the calcium supplement that was being used for gliders, because it is made from oyster shells. He felt that that contributed to all the urinary problems in gliders - especially the males. I donít know enough about calcium supplements to know whether that would cause a problem with the liver as well as the urinary tract. I miss Charlie and his common sense advice - he told you like it was.

4. Stryder has been on several diets - sorry. When he came for a visit he was being fed dry food, fruits and veggies - thatĎs what the breeder told them to feed him. When he became our honored, permanent guest, I changed his diet. I started with a diet I found on Sugar Glider Express (similar I think to Priscillaís), but I didnít have the vitamins - Hurricane Katrina hit before I could order them. I then went to the Darcy diet and fed that for quite a while. Contrary to peoples belief that it causes them to gain weight and get fat, he did not. I had wanted to use the Wambaroo for some time, so when Peggyís diet was made available I switched to the HPW diet. I have always had some concern about the amount of honey in this diet, but everyone always said it was okay. Now this is when Stryder gained weight. He went from 100 grams to between 150 to 160 grams in no time flat. I couldnít help but wonder if it was the honey that caused the weight gain. Another thing about the honey is that I read on here that processing honey removes a lot of the nutrition from it, so he would have just been getting empty calories. I am now using Reepís diet. I donít know that itís the best diet in the world, but he is eating it good where with the HPW he would always leave some of the HPW, veggies and most of the fruit. Stryder will be 6 years old this summer - I think.

Sorry this was so long.


Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Anmaw] #743499
03/02/09 01:35 AM
03/02/09 01:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Ok I want to respond about a lot of things, but really do not have the time right now and really am not completely ready either.
However, I do need to know something and I am hoping someone will remember if this was the case or not. I vaguely remember that extra Vitamin E may have been added to BML. I don't know if it was done or if there was just talk of it being done. I remember the possibility that anemia was an issue so Vitamin K was of course talked about. I could have sworn this was done due to liver issues. Since the liver can regenerate itself Vitamin E was thought to help in that process. For some reason I remember this pretty well, but I am not 100% positive this happened. Does anyone remember if this was ever added to the BML?

I also want to mention that the only reason I am starting out by researching the BML is because it is the main diet I know (even though I stopped feeding it when I got gliders that were fed HPW) and I figured if I started here then I could start looking at other diets as well. I am positive that BML is not going to be the only diet that needs to be looked at. There is no reason to panic about BML as it has helped a lot of gliders and a lot of gliders do do well on it. If we want to talk about sugar being an issue and are referring to BML then there are surely other diets that have the same problem.

I also wanted to explain why I said not to go mixing things you liked about different diets or changing things about diets until everyhing is figured out for sure. The thing we have to remember is that there are a lot of people that do not know everything we need to look at when looking at diets other than protein, fruits, and veggies. So to have someone that isn't as familiar with diets and why they have what in them to go changing them and mixing differet aspects of diets together without knowing what they are used for could cause more harm than good. I wasn't saying that people who knew a great deal about diets shouldn't figure out what works for them and go for it. We all have to do what we feel is in the best interest of our gliders. That is what this community is all about as it gives us tons of information so we can do so. I just want anyone that doesn't know a great deal about the diets and why certain things are in there and why certain amounts of things are in there to go changing that as it could have horrible outcomes. I hope that helped clear that up a bit. If I worded it wrong again I am so sorry. I have been battling inomnia and a few other things so it has been taking me much longer to get to all this than I thought it would. Not that I know a great deal more than anyone else, but I do have a few things going through my head that may be factors for sure.
I also agree that high sugar levels causing high insulin levels is a definite aspect that needs to be looked at. I believe there are other factors, but I am doing more research before going into them.
If anyone could answer this question I would be forever grateful as I simply can not remember how this went.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

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