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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #741034
02/25/09 03:29 PM
02/25/09 03:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Originally Posted By: JillMarie
In answer to Danielle asking for a substitute for grapes ... how does anyone feel about using watermelon?


If your glider is getting enough moisture in it's diet, it shouldn't be constipated. Fruit and Veggies have a high moisture content - that with their regular water bottles should be enough. All animals have a tendency to adjust to their diets.

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
personally I feed my gliders a rotating diet, again I am told No No many times here. but when I read everything here on THIS thread I am more determined to stick to my diet plan as it makes for great variety and removes alot of the concerns of too much honey, toxins adding up, etc, etc.


That is your poragative. But with switching so muct, there is no guarentee your gliders are getting the right nutrition or ratios. At least with the proven diets, ratios have been worked out. Do you know if your gliders are getting the right amount of calcium on, say the days you don't feed BML? You probably don't. How about enough protein?

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I always use BOTTLED water. tap water especially in the winter can peak in chlorine levels and perhaps can hurt the delicate balance in their tiny little intestines?


Now, I have no problem with bottled water, but I don't agree that tap is bad for them (or us). It's certainly not the common denomiator as the tap in California doesn't have the same concentration of chemicals as tap in New York. There are studies now saying bottle water isn't all it's cracked up to be and some concern over the plastic bottles it is stored in.

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
I know I am new to this so am no expert but I have never been good at following the crowd. I am always searching for a better way.


It's good that you care enought about your gliders to listen and learn. Some people just slap some pellets in a dish and call that dinner.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741036
02/25/09 03:36 PM
02/25/09 03:36 PM

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DelilahsMom
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I have to disagree with LabNGlidermom about infant mortality. Those rates were VERY high due to the lack of knowledge with medical asepsis. Doctors did not believe in washing hands or being "clean". A doctor would do an autopsy in the morgue and then rush upstairs to deliver a baby. Thus, spreading deadly pathogens. Once universal precautions came around, infant mortality went WAY down. This holds very true in thrid world countries today where they lack proper clean water, gloves, etc.

But, back on topic, we do need to keep meticulous records about our gliders and get a database started.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741039
02/25/09 03:37 PM
02/25/09 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
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Originally Posted By: TWilson
I will Marie, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact about not feeding honey or other sugars in the UK.

I was just going to reference that and the fact that liver issues over there are not common.

Also, I wanted to point out that as far as the aflatoxin issue, I do NOT feed anything that aflatoxins would be present. I only feed organic fruits and veggies and wash them thoroughly.

Glad to see you back Marie!!!!!! smile


We feed a diet which includes an artificial nectar mix (ie. originally called leadbeaters) here in Australia and there have been no issues to note of liver disease from it. The Healesville Sanctuary microchips every glider and strictly monitors for health issues,weight on a weekly basis through the Australian Wildlife Health Centre based at the sanctuary. Their gliders have been on a diet with artificial nectar mix for decades now. After speaking to both vets and the keepers of the sugar gliders there, the only thing they have done is reduce the amount of honey as there have been a few incidences of tooth decay with their senior gliders! Along with that they offer more natural flora as well to enable better gum health and said that was essential if feeding any articifial nectar mix.

So what is the difference between an Australian diet and BML (and possibly other nectar based US diets)...more honey is the first. BML is based on the OLD diet with more honey. Secondly, there is water in the Aus diet instead of a fruit juice. We don't feed yoghurt or baby foods in our mix and the number of eggs have been reduced. We don't feed reptile vitamins.

Originally Healesville fed sustagen (similar to Boost not ensure) as the vitamin component of their nectar mix. They did change to bird vitamins only to streamline their diets. They said there was no health issues but with a large amount of animals being fed, streamlining diets can reduce the workload. I still use the sustagen by choice and recommendation of my vet who specialises in animal especially exotic and wildlife nutrition.


Now the big thing, we feed a TEASPOON of nectar mix per glider not a tablespoon recommended with BML.It is not the major part of the diet.

The Aus diet has a lot more veg than fruit now which in our case here includes more natural flora or if not available, more green leafy veg. Now fruit is interesting..a lot of vets here including ones that have worked for the sanctuary are now recommending less or even no fruit, and lots more vegetable to replicate the natural diet in the wild. For my 25 gliders, I still offer them some fruit, but they eat less than a tablespoon between them!! However, they happily munch through the variety of up to 20 veg every night. I only feed raw veg and never cooked. Many wildlife carers refuse to feed any fruit to their possums and gliders for a number of reasons which I wont go into here, but just enough to say, vegetables are highly recommended.

Now we have covered nectar mix, fruit and veg and that is basically where BML ends but with our diet here, we also feed a meatloaf (I make my own), a piece of high quality dog kibble each day and then we also feed almonds, hulled sunflower seeds, sprouted seeds, insects and a TINY bit of bee pollen etc as well as native branches and blossoms to nibble and chew on. I also personally feed other items as well but you can see where I am coming from generally. Moderation, less sugars and more variety is summing it up nicely.

Bottom note. I have only had one glider die (touch wood)and she came to me with severe health issues. Her diet was one her previous owner found on the internet and followed to a tee. The diet was BML.

I agree honey is a good addition to a sugar glider diet BUT it should be offered sensibly and not with a lot of other sugars especially other fructoses. I can honestly say, the US diets I have shown to vets here have comments ranging from "OMG will they ever learn" to "those diets are bad....way too sweet.". I have yet to find a vet here that will approve BML as a good diet for gliders here. I stress I am not bashing BML as at the time it was devised, it was done so with the best of intentions at heart. Time has moved on, diets have changed here too since BML began.

Maybe it's time, rather than run away from these diets such as BML, is to modify them again, back to less sugars and more variety. This might be the hidden key.

Anyway this is my opinion only but if Healesville Sanctuary is making the original diet work, then maybe it's time to really go back to basics!

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Marz] #741053
02/25/09 04:34 PM
02/25/09 04:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,640
Mims, Florida, USA
hushpuppy Offline
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Mims, Florida, USA
Excellent post Marz. Thank you for sharing what our Aussie freinds are feeding.

Most of the US diets use the frozen mixed veggies. To me that has a lot of corn in it. I like the idea of leafy greens.


Anita Rae
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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hushpuppy] #741060
02/25/09 04:45 PM
02/25/09 04:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Adri  Offline
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Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Wow! If BML calls for 1/2 cup of honey and that is possibly too much where does that leave HPW with 1 & 1/2 cups? It's scary to think all the what ifs!


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Adri] #741062
02/25/09 04:57 PM
02/25/09 04:57 PM

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LB_Glider
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I like the idea of the leafy greens too - I especially like some of the Ca:Ph ratios of the greens, but I can't get any of mine to eat them. How do you get them to eat the leafy greens?

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741087
02/25/09 05:40 PM
02/25/09 05:40 PM

C
Crafts_Critters
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Crafts_Critters
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"Gossamer posted: Now, I have no problem with bottled water, but I don't agree that tap is bad for them (or us). It's certainly not the common denomiator as the tap in California doesn't have the same concentration of chemicals as tap in New York. There are studies now saying bottle water isn't all it's cracked up to be and some concern over the plastic bottles it is stored in."


It was a theory to consider. What we eat and drink is healthy for us but may not be for gliders.

I know where we are we've received for the past 5 years that our water company has been in violation of EPA water quality.

It contained 2 elements/contaminants (one TTH's I believe) that is allowable in drinking water but at low levels. The TTH Its a byproduct of the chlorination process.

Our water company has exceeded these level of contaminates. Again these contaminates are allowable at certain levels by EPA.

The letter we get states that we are at no immediate risk. But as we read down the letter it states that prolonged exposure to these contaminates can affect the liver, kidney, central nervous system, and has been linked to cancer. If concerned, see a doctor (this letter came from our water company with the EPA test results).

Now with this said, their is an allowable amount of this contaminate in our drinking water. If the high levels of these contaminates can adversely impact us; it is probable to say that lower levels might impact gliders and other animals.

Now our situation is different and there is no real way to get around drinking water. But, it is a theory.

The issue about leafy greens has been a problem for us. They won't touch it. We're considering pureaing (spelling?) the collard or mustard greens and mix it in with the staple diet, fruits and vegetables to get them to at least get the calcium from the without the glider jusy tossing it out or licking whole leafs clean of the staple diet.

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741091
02/25/09 05:43 PM
02/25/09 05:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
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Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
good thought about possability of poisoning from china cages!
thats's why I bought from King's cages!

Last edited by JillMarie; 02/25/09 05:47 PM.

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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741116
02/25/09 06:10 PM
02/25/09 06:10 PM

T
TWilson
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TWilson
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T



Thank you so much for your post Marz!!!!! smile It was an excellent read!

Since learning of the possible issues of too much sugar, and honey is a highly concentrated form of sugar, I've modified what I feed as well.

I make a mix of Odwalla Superfood (it is a green thick juice, it has some fruit juices in it, like apple, mango, strawberry and banana puree, but it also contains wheat grass, barley grass, wheat sprouts) and I don't use much of it. To that, I add a tiny bit of bee pollen (pinch) water, egg, HPW powder (not much either) and honey (only a teaspoon and it is raw) I also add a product called Granular Greens for pets. It has wheat sprouts, barley and alfalfa and kelp. All good greens, high in calcium and good for liver function.

Here in the US, a good dog kibble is hard to find. A better choice over here is a good cat kibble. I am not talking Frisky's either, there are a couple of excellent ones that have no ash and the calicum to phosphorus ratio is almost perfect at 2:1, something that no pellet or kibble has here. I give mine a couple of pieces each, that is all.

I have been feeding more veggies and less fruit, but when I feed fruit it a good fruit like figs or papaya mainly. I also don't buy frozen mixed veggies, I buy fresh and organic and definetly feed more veggies.

My crew LOVES fresh collard greens, they are only in season through the winter months here in Florida, but I'll buy them up and freeze them like I do my Euc leaves. I tear them into pieces and serve them right up with their other veggies.

My vet is happy with my diet, I have to say my gliders are too. Only treats at my house are either pine nuts or raw almond pieces.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741219
02/25/09 08:46 PM
02/25/09 08:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 625
Oregon
Kage Offline
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Kage  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 625
Oregon
I've been thinking of this all day at school. I've gotten way to curious for my own good. I'm getting really worried about the high sugar issue like that honey the more and more I look over this topic. I'm beining to think that is one of the main factors. I really to come up with away to reduce the honey gradually in the bml diet (make it can be like half a teaspoon or not even in it at all). Or make my own diet with the right Ca:Ph ratios to make sure that they are getting what they need. Like how much protein, vitmins, and all of that stuff.

Maybe we are also giving them to much protein? Like the egg, the mealworms, and the chicken in the BML? I'm not really sure. This just popped up in my head.

I know my girls eat just a little bit of the BML anyways. Not even half of it. They mainly eat the veggies I put out for them. They really enjoy romane lettuce(I havent fed it to them in awhile though) One or both of them eats like one grape and they leave most of the fruit but all of the veggies are eaten.

Ok I do have to admit I actaully tried the BML. It's really sweet.

Marz, thanks for that post! It really got me interested and I enjoyed it a lot.

Tammy, your diet sounds really good for me to eat. laugh


:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, my soon to be gliderbutts Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hwh4ev] #741234
02/25/09 09:16 PM
02/25/09 09:16 PM

A
Aryn
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Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
hi everybody,
this is a very good subject. i feed my 2 gliders the suncoast diet, no treats except organic low fat blueberry yogurt maybe 1 tsp. every 2 weeks. i have never fed honey or maple syrup to my gliders.
my concern is with the vitamins. suncoast calls for calcium without the vit d3 because it is in the vionate. but the vionate has iron in it and i always feel uneasy when i sprinkle it on their fruits and veggies because i do not take any vitamins with iron in it because it stays in your system and can build up. i was thinking of dropping the vionate vits. before this subject even came up.
now on another note i just bought some organic raw honey (without comb) because i was going to mix a little with their boiled egg and a few mothers oats for a different protien food. this will be part of their dinner on sundays and sundays only. i read abt. the organic raw honey and it is loaded with vits./min.
so when i feed this on sundays they will not get any other vits/min. or calcium.
like i said i feel in my gut that giving my sugar gliders this vionate is wrong, i am going to stop giving it to them altogether because they eat all organic (except for soft suncoast pellets).
my sugar will be 2 yrs in july and rocky will be 1 yr. in july. so far they are in good health (knock on wood).
i also feed them smart water or fiji which both have minerals in it, no tap water at all.

i am sorry abt. the loss of these little ones and hope something can be found out abt. these liver problems.

regards,
nancy


i feed my gliders the suncoast diet as well, and feel the same way about the vitamin and calcuim additives. i usually only sprinkle it on their food every other day, or i give them fruits or veggies with high calcium ratios i'll even hold off for longer (i know, probably not the best but i know too much vitamins and calcium isn't good in humans so i don't think it would be good for these little guys). the only treats i give is fresh fruits, or meal worms, and occasional yogurt, since it's an option for a source of protein.

hopefully over time we can figure out a common cause for liver issues, i don't want my babies to die of something i could have prevented!!

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741254
02/25/09 09:42 PM
02/25/09 09:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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roseville, mi
hi again,
i also read a news letter from suncoast that made me stop giving grapes/raisons to my gliders, rocky has never had a grape or raison.
my gliders do not like eggs or chicken so that is why i am going to try the organic raw honey on the eggs/chicken to see if they will eat it. they like some greens but i am going to buy more of a variety of greens.

i threw the gliderade and acacia gum out along time ago. i would like a receipe for some natural nectar they would get in the wild, does any body have a good receipe that isn't sugar loaded?

regards,
nancy

Last edited by hwh4ev; 02/25/09 09:44 PM. Reason: addition

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: hwh4ev] #741257
02/25/09 09:49 PM
02/25/09 09:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
very interesting and all, especially on the fructose. I was browsing over the gliders @usnw site and came across a diet they use for captive sugar gliders.

check it out- the break down and what they use in their nectar mixes is very interesting.

http://www.gliders.science.unsw.edu.au/diets.htm


—ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741263
02/25/09 10:00 PM
02/25/09 10:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,938
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,938
Wisconsin
Quote:
There is a story regarding a vet that had several gliders die over a period of time.

It was determined -based on discussions with the owner(s)- that the deaths were possibly linked to grapes that were fed to them.

I have to find the story but I did remember reading about it then discussed the topic with another breeder in Florida.

But, it was not concrete proof that grapes are toxic to gliders. Sorry so vague. I can't remember all the points of the discussion.

I haven't fed grapes to my gliders since the issue came up.


This may be considered a bit off topic, but a couple years ago a parrot rescue lost several parrots after feeding grapes as a treat, their daughter even got ill from eating the grapes. It was determined that it was an aflotoxin and the grapes were from Chile.

I still feed grapes in moderation, but I am very carefull about cleaning and sorting them. I do this watching tv, I will remove and inspect each grape, discarding any wrinkled, mushy or other grape that looks off. I wash them under warm to moderately hot water (my hands are comfortable in the hot water) I feed a couple to the parrots and I freeze the rest for the gliders. I rotate the fruit that my gliders get so they are recieving grapes every 5 days.

With any fresh fruit or vegetables that you feed to your pets you should take extra care in inspecting and cleaning the food. Their little bodies are more apt to react to a poison or aflatoxin before we would. they metabolize food differently from us. I believe it is the sugar in grapes and more so in raisins that are so toxic for dogs and it has to do with the way their liver works.

JMHO


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741265
02/25/09 10:01 PM
02/25/09 10:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 625
Oregon
Kage Offline
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Kage  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 625
Oregon
Nancy (jacknsally), that diet is intersting but the brown sugar really worries me.


:grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT CVT, my soon to be gliderbutts Amos & Amelia

:rbridge: Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #741270
02/25/09 10:05 PM
02/25/09 10:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Kage
Nancy (jacknsally), that diet is intersting but the brown sugar really worries me.


looks like they've been offering that type of diet since 1999. a few of the high mentioned concerns mentioned here (fructose, grapes, raisins) are highly used portions of that diet.


—ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: jacknsally] #741427
02/26/09 06:22 AM
02/26/09 06:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Marz,

Would you post a typical daily diet that you use? I'm just curious about what an australian diet is like (for your gliders of course, LOL)


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #741571
02/26/09 11:54 AM
02/26/09 11:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
Someone correct me if I am wrong...but isnt brown sugar cane sugar that isnt processed all the way? so rather than being FRUCTOSE (like honey) it's SUCROSE? whats the nutritional difference between sugars...how does the body use them differently?


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
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Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #741656
02/26/09 02:34 PM
02/26/09 02:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian
Marz  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Sorry I haven't replied to the thread or all of the PM's but awkwardly I am in the middle of working 21 1/2 hrs in a 25 hr timeframe and I'm exhausted and just about to head off for the final 7 1/2 hrs of work! I will try and get back to this on the weekend.

Cheers.

PS. That diet mentioned on Adrian's thesis page with brown sugar is one that I do not know of anyone using amongst sugar glider owners here. You might want to ask him his basis for this recommendation.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #741709
02/26/09 04:08 PM
02/26/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
BCChins Offline
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Posts: 3,089
Central Connecticut
Originally Posted By: penniedad
i have my molly 3 yrs. old,,, she has liver problems , the vet. said there is nothing they can do ? my babydoll died of a huge tumor, molly is sicker,in my heart i know she will go to god soon, i just dont want her in pain, she never ate bml, the vet.asked me what she ate ,hpw, he said why so much honey in it ? to much, so i really wonder if anyone knows ? now i feed her chicken, fruits, veag,if shes leaves me, i will get a necropsie and send it

sorry for your losses, i know how much it hurts


KarenE had asked where Molly came from and what diet she was on. I will answer this as Pennie is under the weather.
Molly was a rescue who came from the RSPCA. We have no idea what diet or where she came from unfortunately. I THINK she may be a pet store glider who was on a pelleted diet but can not prove it. It was just the impression I got from the RSPCA. If anyone has any suggestions for Molly please PM them to me. The vet that Pennie went to did not have any treatments for her other then offering her what she will eat and keeping her happy. I am going to talk to my vet as well when I go in.


Have a Good Day
Brenda &
Mr. Magoo

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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #742330
02/27/09 06:37 PM
02/27/09 06:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
I have moved the Australian diet discussion here so we can keep this thread on topic. Thank you. smile


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: JillMarie] #742353
02/27/09 08:40 PM
02/27/09 08:40 PM

M
meme05
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meme05
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M



I have only had my baby for a few weeks. He came to me on BML, and I have followed it exactly from day one. After reading the information at this website I can tell you I am throwing BML in the trash. They offer some very good alternatives, and there is a lot of really good info at this site. I found it when I was searching for Healesville. I hope some more experienced owners will read the info at this site, and let me know what you think.
www.glideruniversity.org/?p=87

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #742753
02/28/09 04:07 PM
02/28/09 04:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 659
Hernando, MS - USA
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 659
Hernando, MS - USA
Karen, I am so sorry you lost another of your gliders. Itís not easy losing a loved one whether itís before their time or when itís their time to go.

I have followed this thread closely because I have always worried about some of the diets and the amount of supplements that are in them. I donít know that any of what I am going to write will make any sense to anyone or not, but here goes. Some of it will be questions, so if you know the answers please chime in.

1. What is the lifespan of captive gliders in Australia? Since there is a difference in the gliders there and the ones in the U.S. (supposedly our gliders descend from ones that came mostly from India or somewhere like that), does that make any difference in the lifespan? From reading all the post by people in Australia, we know they do not use all the sweet stuff and supplements that are used here. Plus they have access to things that are in a gliderís natural diet. Do they use the Wambaroo High Protein Supplement in their diet? If they donít, why not?

2. How old was Babe (Bourbonís glider) at the time of death and what was the cause of death? We can assume she used the BML diet.

3. PacMan (Charlie and Mary Hís glider) lived to be 15 years plus some and he was not on an approved diet. PacMan was a rescue and if you ever get the chance (if itís available) you should read Maryís post about him after he died. Charlie never would share his diet because he was afraid a newbie might not understand enough about nutrition, etc. to use his diet. I know he used chicken, eggs, fruit and veggies, but have no idea what combination or how much of any. Until he lost some gliders to aflatoxin poisoning, he would feed them human grade peanuts as a treat. He was very passionate about the calcium supplement that was being used for gliders, because it is made from oyster shells. He felt that that contributed to all the urinary problems in gliders - especially the males. I donít know enough about calcium supplements to know whether that would cause a problem with the liver as well as the urinary tract. I miss Charlie and his common sense advice - he told you like it was.

4. Stryder has been on several diets - sorry. When he came for a visit he was being fed dry food, fruits and veggies - thatĎs what the breeder told them to feed him. When he became our honored, permanent guest, I changed his diet. I started with a diet I found on Sugar Glider Express (similar I think to Priscillaís), but I didnít have the vitamins - Hurricane Katrina hit before I could order them. I then went to the Darcy diet and fed that for quite a while. Contrary to peoples belief that it causes them to gain weight and get fat, he did not. I had wanted to use the Wambaroo for some time, so when Peggyís diet was made available I switched to the HPW diet. I have always had some concern about the amount of honey in this diet, but everyone always said it was okay. Now this is when Stryder gained weight. He went from 100 grams to between 150 to 160 grams in no time flat. I couldnít help but wonder if it was the honey that caused the weight gain. Another thing about the honey is that I read on here that processing honey removes a lot of the nutrition from it, so he would have just been getting empty calories. I am now using Reepís diet. I donít know that itís the best diet in the world, but he is eating it good where with the HPW he would always leave some of the HPW, veggies and most of the fruit. Stryder will be 6 years old this summer - I think.

Sorry this was so long.


Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Anmaw] #743499
03/02/09 12:35 AM
03/02/09 12:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Ok I want to respond about a lot of things, but really do not have the time right now and really am not completely ready either.
However, I do need to know something and I am hoping someone will remember if this was the case or not. I vaguely remember that extra Vitamin E may have been added to BML. I don't know if it was done or if there was just talk of it being done. I remember the possibility that anemia was an issue so Vitamin K was of course talked about. I could have sworn this was done due to liver issues. Since the liver can regenerate itself Vitamin E was thought to help in that process. For some reason I remember this pretty well, but I am not 100% positive this happened. Does anyone remember if this was ever added to the BML?

I also want to mention that the only reason I am starting out by researching the BML is because it is the main diet I know (even though I stopped feeding it when I got gliders that were fed HPW) and I figured if I started here then I could start looking at other diets as well. I am positive that BML is not going to be the only diet that needs to be looked at. There is no reason to panic about BML as it has helped a lot of gliders and a lot of gliders do do well on it. If we want to talk about sugar being an issue and are referring to BML then there are surely other diets that have the same problem.

I also wanted to explain why I said not to go mixing things you liked about different diets or changing things about diets until everyhing is figured out for sure. The thing we have to remember is that there are a lot of people that do not know everything we need to look at when looking at diets other than protein, fruits, and veggies. So to have someone that isn't as familiar with diets and why they have what in them to go changing them and mixing differet aspects of diets together without knowing what they are used for could cause more harm than good. I wasn't saying that people who knew a great deal about diets shouldn't figure out what works for them and go for it. We all have to do what we feel is in the best interest of our gliders. That is what this community is all about as it gives us tons of information so we can do so. I just want anyone that doesn't know a great deal about the diets and why certain things are in there and why certain amounts of things are in there to go changing that as it could have horrible outcomes. I hope that helped clear that up a bit. If I worded it wrong again I am so sorry. I have been battling inomnia and a few other things so it has been taking me much longer to get to all this than I thought it would. Not that I know a great deal more than anyone else, but I do have a few things going through my head that may be factors for sure.
I also agree that high sugar levels causing high insulin levels is a definite aspect that needs to be looked at. I believe there are other factors, but I am doing more research before going into them.
If anyone could answer this question I would be forever grateful as I simply can not remember how this went.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

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