Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
B1u3sky, StellaLuna
Member Spotlight
Hutch
Hutch
Belleville, IL
Posts: 1,482
Joined: November 2015
Show All Member Profiles 
Last 10 Posts
Gliders of the Round Table 10
by Feather. 03/27/24 07:04 PM
Logging in Problem
by Feather. 03/26/24 06:07 PM
Cloaca swollen?
by Hutch. 03/16/24 11:51 PM
Wheels, Toys, Toy supplies, pouches and more.
by Ladymagyver. 03/07/24 11:16 PM
Gliders of the Round Table 9
by Hutch. 03/07/24 10:52 PM
Stewie:" It's MY Mouse!"
by Hutch. 03/04/24 12:12 AM
2024 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw. 02/29/24 08:55 PM
Custom Cage Liners Machine Wash & Dry
by gr8pots. 02/27/24 04:23 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: JillMarie] #755713
03/27/09 08:26 AM
03/27/09 08:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
How old is the creamino line? Who owns the oldest creaminos and what ages are they? I have never seen a creamino over four years old. That in itself is reason enough for me to shy away from putting thousands of dollars into one.

I'm simply curious.

As far as pricing goes, to each their own. If a glider is too pricey for me, I won't buy it. Simple. I expect some colors to run high as far as price goes and the fee for any glider is ultimately the choice of the breeder.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #755737
03/27/09 09:17 AM
03/27/09 09:17 AM

A
AmyLynn
Unregistered
AmyLynn
Unregistered
A



I think all the colored gliders are beautiful don't get me wrong. I do have wfb's. But my thing is that people will not want the standard gray anymore. Everyone will want one of the colored gliders and that will just mean more breeders will pop up. And sorry some people do not need to breed these amazing animals. Because there are alot out there who do it for the money. And the poor gliders suffer. It bothers me when I see older gliders for sale that are to old to produce or won't mate anymore or whatever that breeders put up for sale. They are still part of your family but now since they can't make you any more money they are no good to you so you get rid of them. And I am not talking about every breeder on here so no one should get upset. I am just speaking my mind. I do not want to upset anyone.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #755739
03/27/09 09:21 AM
03/27/09 09:21 AM

S
SugarGliderCandy
Unregistered
SugarGliderCandy
Unregistered
S



Eddie, I agree with you.

I don't really see a difference with the inbreeding either, except quantity. If colored gliders were plentiful, they too would bring in money with quantity, rather than being individually high priced.

I don't know how to say this. You wouldn't know a grey glider was inbred by outward appearances alone. However, with the community of colored gliders, it is immediately known when a colored glider is produced. Those breeders are more easily identified for their breeding(quantity) because it's obviously known where they came from. In order to save reputation and market value, the colored breeders wouldn't want to 'mass produce'. I know breeders of color love their gliders and do care for them. That's not what I am saying.


When a breeder of any color says they 'know the risks, and are very careful'- I don't quite get what that means. So you know it's risky. However, you choose to do it and monitor the results? Then what? Why do color breeders say "it has to be done"? Says who? Why do you "have" to pair this with that? The only "have to" it to get the results you're looking for, to be more unique. There's no glider extinction predicted any time soon. But, with tainted lines, we might all face that sooner than later.

Do you see all the different color variations in the wild? Who says white gliders are a better hybrid than the standard gray and should be bred over and over?

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ] #755748
03/27/09 09:47 AM
03/27/09 09:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Originally Posted By: AmyLynn
But my thing is that people will not want the standard gray anymore. Everyone will want one of the colored gliders and that will just mean more breeders will pop up.


I don't think that's true at all. Let's be frank. Most new owners I stumble across are looking for cheap gliders. They are not going to find that in most colored gliders. There will always be a market for grays because they are the most affordable. Plus, there will always be careless breeders. This is why it's so important that any person wanting to buy a sugar glider (of any color) research their breeder before adopting from them. Just my opinion.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Lynsie] #755754
03/27/09 09:59 AM
03/27/09 09:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Lynsie

Eddie, I just wanted to point out that these topics have been discussed before and breeders who do not practice safe breeding have been outed, but just not on this board because of the no drama rule, since most of these topics get heated.


Not all of them have been, only the ones who were not careful or are looked up to for one reason or another.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: gliderdad79] #755757
03/27/09 10:04 AM
03/27/09 10:04 AM

A
AmyLynn
Unregistered
AmyLynn
Unregistered
A



If it is not about money. Why charge $5000-$6000 for a glider?

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ] #755760
03/27/09 10:10 AM
03/27/09 10:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
When was the last time you saw a creamino being rehomed or a mosaic?

What about grays?

Now, think about their fees. I think the higher prices keep rare colored gliders from being carelessly bred by mass amounts of people. If they were all $200 then everyone with the money would want to have them and then we would see tons of uneducated/irresponsible breeding of these colored gliders as well. The breeding of grays is bad enough. Way too many people see these guys as a quick buck. It's sad. I waited SIX YEARS before getting a leucistic.

I'm not saying high prices eliminate careless breeding. It's always going to be there. I'm saying it keeps it from getting way too out of control. Ever since leu prices dropped, I've seen more and more breeders for them appear. You know what else? I've seen more and more sick leus too.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: JillMarie] #755761
03/27/09 10:17 AM
03/27/09 10:17 AM

S
Sylvia1
Unregistered
Sylvia1
Unregistered
S



Hi,
I hesitate to post here because of my limited glider experience but I do have 20+ years of breeding Briards. Before you can attach a price tag to the results of your breeding,in dogs at least,there are numerous steps that must be taken. First and foremost all breeding stock must have their health clearances and these results are recorded in an open registry for everyone to see.To see that they were done and more importantlt the results. We do not breed a dog that does not pass,you're just asking for trouble. Once those clearances have been done,hips,eyes,heart and kidney in the case of my chosen breed ,then you choose animals that have been cleared as well to breed to.Then you choose the championship lines,proven winners in the dog show arena.Now you get to attach a price tag.If you haven't done any of this,no matter what you think of your babies,you are not going to get big bucks.Purchasers nowadays are very smart and know what questions to ask. Like show me the documents! No documents-no sale!!
I am very interested in the creamino line for myself,because I do like the color. I've been compiling info on all the pedigrees out there,very confusing for me right now because I'm not familiar with the various breeders and some of the gliders are listed by first name only,no other info. There may be 3-4 Simbas listed,for example. Are they the same glider or different? I see the first step to take is a health data bank and a better pedigree system. I don't see breeding color variations as a bad thing,if you know what you're doing.As to the price difference,again,if you have done your checks and can offer health guarantees free from genetic issues,go for it! If not,ideally you should be finding it hard to get 4-5 thousand for a glider.
Another point in successful breeding, line breeding is a good thing but you must breed out ever 3rd or 4th generation. We call it out-crossing and it's very important to do this to keep the line healthy. inbreeding is a definite huge NONO!! The gene pool is too small right now to mess with this and as previously stated to be used to try to preserve species that are dying out.

just my humble opinion and 2 cents worth,,,

Sylvis smile

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ] #755772
03/27/09 10:46 AM
03/27/09 10:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
Okay, I am going to post my OPINION...

Modern dogs are decended from wolves... so you wouldn't have the chihuahua or that maltese or that doberman pinscher if SOMEONE SOMEWHERE hadn't noticed that the wolf they raised from a puppy was cast out by it's parents because it "didn't look like all the other wolves" and that when that castout mated witht heir standard wolves, some of the puppies were "different" too. That person saw that and said to themselves, "these wolves, when domesticated, can guard our camps and help us hunt... but so many get injured or killed by other humans because they look just like all the other wolves so no one can tell them apart... maybe if I keep this black one I found that looks so much different and has babies that look different, too, and mate it with it's babies that carry the same coat color I can eventuallyhave ALL black wolves that the hunters will EASILY be able to tell apart from wild wolves!"

Now that Cro-Magnon man had just discovered the effects (and I guess some of the benefits) of "line breeding"... and SOMEONE SOMEWHERE thousands of years later said to themselves, "hey, all doags are WORKING animals, but my dogs had puppies that never grew to be the same size as their parents and had a white coat and were USELESS for their intended job... and my cousin two towns over said his dogs did, too... and several people have told me they love these cute little dogs and have been begging for one as a pet instead of a working animal for their wives or children... maybe if I breed mine with my cousin's we can make some money selling the puppies as pets."

Now that man int he middle ages had discovered the financial benefits to be had that can result from "breeding for traits"

Every glider in the world today can trace it's lineage to a pair that mated resulting in the current standard color scheme and characteristics. Many of the ones kept int he US are from the same small gene pool that was established when sugar gliders were first brought to America and gained popularity as a pet. Therefore, to a degree, EVERY glider EVERYWHERE is somehow related, JUST AS WE ALL ARE AS HUMANS. How far apart we or these gliders or any other species are in "lineage" might surprise a few people. I have a best friend who met her husband online. She and her family as far back as anyone could remember lived in the same area of Alabama. He husband had the same experience in Washington state. Imagine their surprise 4 years and 2 kids into their marriage when she caught the "geaneology bug" and discovered that she and her husband are FIRST COUSINS.

I have NO problem with ANY animal being bred for it's traits, appearance, and/or characteristics... that has been happening for millenia whether we admit it or recognize it or not to EVERY species on our planet. I have to say, though, that I DO take issue with ANY animal with a KNOWN GENETIC DEFECT being bred repeatedly and purposefully PARTICULARLY if it is being line bred. The goal of "accidental" or of purposeful breeding for traits is to BETTER any species... be it a PLANT a PERSON or a GLIDER or ANYTHING... if you KNOW that you have a glider who passes on the genes responsible for a DISEASE or a DISABLING DEFECT, you should NOT breed that glider... it is THAT simple.


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #755777
03/27/09 10:50 AM
03/27/09 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: StitchsMom
When was the last time you saw a creamino being rehomed or a mosaic?


I can't recall ever seeing one of those gliders being "rehomed." I have, however, seen them being sold once they are past their prime. Or to make room for newer and rarer colors. They're all over the classifieds on many glider sites (forum or personal).

If these gliders were being line bred to improve the species, I would not have that much of a problem with it. I don't see anyone trying to truly improve sugar gliders, though. Whatever motives they say they have, a major underlying factor is almost always color. Sure, the better breeders seriously consider the health and disposition of an animal before breeding it, but there is no need to inbreed/linebreed to get a healthy and friendly sugar glider. They are being bred this way for their color. If color was really the last thing that was considered, inbreeding would not happen. They could easily select a healthy and happy individual from a completely unrelated line of gliders, regardless of color. That's not how it is the majority of the time. People look for a specific color (or gene) and THEN figure out if they are "far enough away" genetically, and if that glider has a good disposition. I'm not saying that every color breeder will inbreed just to get a color, but I really don't see it as Judie said (although that would be ideal!). breeders don't place ads for a "healthy, friendly" glider, then check to see what color it is.

This may be nit-picking, but I have a problem with saying that inbreeding and line breeding is "necessary." It absolutely is NOT necessary. There are plenty of gliders at this point, more than we can find homes for. In order to get a specific color, yes, it may be necessary to breed closely (I still disagree, but I digress), but these colors are not necessary. I would have no problem at all if there were no more colored gliders being bred out there if it meant that all the homeless grays and those needing a good home could be adopted. That will never happen, though. There is no NEED for colored gliders. They will not guarantee the survival of an already overpopulated species. They are not improving the species in any way (sterile lines are still being bred!). The only "need" we have for these compromising breeding situations is to feed our desire for pretty things.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #755778
03/27/09 10:51 AM
03/27/09 10:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: StitchsMom
When was the last time you saw a creamino being rehomed or a mosaic?

What about grays?

Now, think about their fees. I think the higher prices keep rare colored gliders from being carelessly bred by mass amounts of people. If they were all $200 then everyone with the money would want to have them and then we would see tons of uneducated/irresponsible breeding of these colored gliders as well. The breeding of grays is bad enough. Way too many people see these guys as a quick buck. It's sad. I waited SIX YEARS before getting a leucistic.

I'm not saying high prices eliminate careless breeding. It's always going to be there. I'm saying it keeps it from getting way too out of control. Ever since leu prices dropped, I've seen more and more breeders for them appear. You know what else? I've seen more and more sick leus too.


These are my sentiments exactly! I have owned gliders since 1992 I stoped breeding grays over four years ago. Why? Because there were too many of them being rehomed and way too many needing resucue. I did not want to be part of adding to that. Until last year I had not owned gliders of color. I love my gliders ALL of them regardless of their color. I provide the best for my gliders. In my home there is no difference between my rescues or my purchased pricey gliders, other than I allow my color gliders to breed.

Since I have not had gliders of color that long, I have had to purchase all my gliders of color recently (within a years time) and I will tell you I have gliders from several breeders. I am a repeat customer to those same breeders because of the lineages my gliders have. For example, I just purchased a glider from Sheila a mosiac that has origins in the leu lines the coefficient percentage in that gliders lineage is 0.00% in a six generation pedigree and is from nonsterile lines. So breeders are taking GREAT care in doing what is right or that would not be possible. I can post a link for all to see. You really need to understand what inbreeding and linebreeding are, and trust me I think the problem is far worse in the gray population when even today it is nearly impossible to find a gray with lineage.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ] #755783
03/27/09 10:56 AM
03/27/09 10:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: Sylvia1
As to the price difference,again,if you have done your checks and can offer health guarantees free from genetic issues,go for it! If not,ideally you should be finding it hard to get 4-5 thousand for a glider.


I agree with you. I could understand paying a lot of money for a glider that has been deemed fully healthy (not just now, but cleared for genetic defects) and the same goes for its parents... I wouldn't pay that much, but I think it would be somewhat justifiable. Unfortunately, the farthest sugar glider breeders go is to get your standard vet visit done. This is probably not through any fault of their own - sugar gliders are not that common and vets don't know that much, and they are too small to do much testing on - but I think you've got a good point there. We're not paying for a healthy, pretty glider; we're paying for a pretty, healthy (now) glider. To me, that's a HUGE difference.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: glidergrl1513] #755800
03/27/09 11:24 AM
03/27/09 11:24 AM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



There are a few statements made here that I feel need to be corrected...

1: There are THREE leucistic lines, THREE white faced lines, SEVEN cremino/albino lines, and TWO non-sterile mosaic lines.

2: Close inbreeding isn't necessary for ANY color, it is done to produce color quickly.

3: There are pure line hets out there from almost every color line if you look. In fact, I have pure hets from 6 of the 7 cremino lines and all 3 of the leucistic lines.

4: Hets from all of the colors with the exceptions of White Faced and Mosaic lines can and will produce color.

5: Only 1 glider is needed to produce Mosaics and White Faces, so there is now, nor has there ever been a NEED to breed WF to WF or Mosaic to Mosaic.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: glidergrl1513] #755815
03/27/09 11:46 AM
03/27/09 11:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
My thoughts on this topic, and let me first say, I am NOT pointing any fingers.

How many vets that any of you have talked to agree with the color breeding and as quickly as it has been done? There must be a reason they are not on board with this.

Years ago, when the WF were being introduced, they were very protected by the breeders and who they would sell to. (In my case, I was lucky enough to purchase a WF and immediately one of the breeders was up in arms because I was going to "become a WF breeder". HUH? No I wasn't. But why were they so concerned? No doubt, it was $.)

The older WF gliders have a tendency to be very overweight. Why?

The leu line was being carefully monitored for a while there too. Next thing we see is an explosion of color gliders and very many people have them. What happened?

When speaking of high priced gliders, not everyone is purchasing them, there is alot of trading/swapping going on in the breeder world. It doesn't take anyone long to figure out if those gliders end up in the wrong hands from one person to the next....and actually, at this point, there are far too many owning them to keep any good track.

I agree WE DON'T KNOW yet the issues that may/or may not arise with these new colors, and more caution should have been taken. It's too late now, so how do we move forward?

I just have to say this, I firmly believe diet does play a role in some of the issues we are seeing, and that it is not all genetic. There must be a common denominator in glider diets causing these issues. All four of my elder gliders (3 gray, 1 WF) passed away with liver issues, so we cannot blame the color breeding. We also cannot blame diet as the sole cause either, but we can agree SOMETHING we are doing is causing these health issues.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Judie] #755842
03/27/09 12:57 PM
03/27/09 12:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Judie,

You make a good point. My newest (and only) colored pair of gliders is Mowgli and Mausi. I spent roughly $5000 on them and they are still way to young to start breeding.

My main reason to get colored gliders was not for the potential to earn money. I know that by the time they have joeys, the prices of Leus and Mosaics will have gone down due to the recent explosion of colored gliders in the population.

Eddie, I am not sure if you are refering to EVERY type of glider color variation or just the "rare" colors such as Creme-inos and Albinos... but I do believe that there is a large difference between the inbred percentage of WFBs and of Albinos.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: oakley] #755852
03/27/09 01:19 PM
03/27/09 01:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
I'd like to bring up another point...

Undesirable traits can also be BRED OUT from any line as soon as they are recognized.

How do you think we can have so many "pure bred" dogs out there with relatively few undesirable genetic illnesses and traits? (yes I do realize that there are a few specific examples of dog breeds that are linked to genetic issues such as the dachshund.... but stick with me here)

Point is, colored gliders are here, I don't think anyone is going to stop breeding them, and I do think that they are a wonderful addition to the standard greys that we all first came to know and love. I personally feel that if precaution is taken, we wont have to worry about breeding sickly gliders just to appreciate their exotic color patterns... I believe we can have the best of both worlds. Here is what I mean:

The duty of "color" breeders is now to DISCOVER and ISOLATE undesirable traits and PREVENT these gliders from breeding. The only way we will be able to STOP more and more health issues from flooding into the glider population is to CONTROL the gliders are used for breeding. This should be done by EVERY breeder regardless of color!

And I believe that many breeders are already doing this by paying close attention to lineages. Hopefully, this will start with the sterile lines, as well as with any other problems that may arise.

THIS GOES FOR STANDARD GREYS AS WELL! Too often have I seen all the attention to pedigrees go to colored gliders. A grey can have just as many inbred health issues and it is important to know the history of ALL of your gliders and keep good track of what you are doing. In fact, an inbred grey that is allowed to breed and pass on an illness or undesirable genetic mutation could do a lot more damage to the entire population because of the relaxed attitude that owners and many "hobby" breeders take towards breeding greys. (NOT to say hobby breeders are bad! I am one!)

Breeding may be a great experience and a lot of fun, but it is a science as well. Take a look at DOG breeders, CAT breeders, heck.. even PLANT and FLOWER breeders keep excellent records of what they are doing and take precautions to firstly, not develop any undesirable traits and secondly, BREED OUT any undesirable traits that may occur.

So I think that if we step it up a bit and continue to think about lineage as well as BREED OUT any undesirable traits --in colored gliders OR greys-- by removing those gliders from breeding programs and finding them pet homes or keeping them as pets ourselves (talking from a breeders standpoint here), that we CAN have colored gliders, even the "rare" types, without having the genetic problems.


sorry for the long post!


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: ] #755895
03/27/09 03:00 PM
03/27/09 03:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: AmyLynn
If it is not about money. Why charge $5000-$6000 for a glider?


I just thought I'd throw in and say that it's not fair to blame all breeders for chargine x-amount of money for their gliders. Those prices were established WAY before many of us ever became breeders by whoever first started breeding for those colors.

Whenever breeders try and post their gliders at lower prices(such as leus for $1000, mosaics for $500, or if a cremino were just $3000) then the glider community goes into an uproar and gets MAD. So, for people to complain about prices, yet throw a fit when someone lowers their prices, is a bit unfair, imo.

A little while back I tried to put together a pricelist and gathered prices from various breeders. Unfortunately, my computer crashed and all that info is now on CDs, which my older computer will not read. :\

Anyways, my point of putting together such a list was to give breeders a price range for their gliders so that they could know what the "safe zone" is. They'd know how high/low they could put their prices without being called our for either over-charging(and being called money-hungry) or under-charging(and people saying that they just want a quick sale).

Ok, that's my $0.02.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Guerita135] #755975
03/27/09 05:05 PM
03/27/09 05:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
I can see lots of good points here. Yes inbreeding is bad, but I do understand why it was done in the beginning to produce the colors.
Linebreeding no I don't see it as one & the same, if far enough down the line and with healthy animals I don't have a problem with it. I think there are a few who don't care if they are far enough removed but I really think most of the breeders in this community do care and do check out lineages.
I can't speak for all breeders but I buy what I myself want for pets and those are allowed to breed. I don't agree with just buying gliders for breeding stock and that is usually pretty easy to see.
I don't agree with "cleaning house" to make room for better producers, nor splitting pairs with no need for it. If the glider is breeding I feel it should be your PET and if it doesn't produce or produce what you want it should not matter.
If you have to rehome or get rid of gliders to "get your numbers down"........................HELLO........wait for it...................OMG.............................here's a real nifty idea...........NEUTER!!! tada Then at least you won't have to worry about getting overloaded again.


Cost.........if it's not about the money then what???
Well let's see, I bet if all the breeders would sell them babies dirt cheap they would NEVER have a problem selling a joey. NOPE, NOPE, NOPE, they'd be flying off the shelves and then HELLO.............wait for it.......Yep rescue homes here they come!
Yes if someone really loves their pets they will keep them even if they are free rescued grays, but most people see gliders, run screaming into the streets "OMG it's sooooo cute I want one", and then two or three and then they are not new anymore and no one is offering to buy it off CL so I'm just going to offer them up to anyone that can get them out of my hair. "take it or I'll let it loose" or "feed it to the snake"

So yep I want the prices high enough for them that they are not DISPOSABLE. Heck I would love it if all the mills and crud were shut down and the prices went up even higher and you couldn't even touch a gray with out $500 in you hand.

There's my take on most of this.

BTW Eddie I am trying to hunt down posts or threads about the young glider with cataracts that you mentioned ....... any help would be appreciated.


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Guerita135] #756011
03/27/09 05:52 PM
03/27/09 05:52 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
a couple of points here..

1. the question regarding how many gliders were first brought to the us..

back then there was importers, that would sell to the breeders, these are gliders that were caught in Indonesia when they were doing logging, the gliders were left homeless, the importers continued in business for several years, all the while there were breeders here that were swapping joeys etc..

2. as to the number of rescues in rescue homes that are growing.

with education, and places like glider central, the many members that go to the shows to help educate, rescues in rescue homes have actually reduced, you still have a few rescue homes that request the gliders be sent to them and who still acquire large numbers, (you have this in all species of animals) but for the most part, many of the rescue homes are placing their gliders.

The rescues are not coming from the colors for the most part, but from the mill breeders, and brokers like CCW, (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, mike maxwell, sugargliders"r" us, rebel ranch, they are the ones flooding the rescue market. Education helps keeps them out of the rescue homes.

3.As in the other species breeders, the ones that are keeping track of linages and problems, that are trying to work out the lines, can charge higher dollar amounts because they are working on the cleanliness and purity of the lines. those are not the problem, the problem is in the others that can't afford the top dollars for the clean lines, and they don't consider the price="quality of purity" and they are buying the cheaper, not so clean lines or not thinking of the damage they are doing to the lines as was stated before. people are getting the gliders cheaper because the quality is not superior, and promising not to breed them, then turning around and breeding them anyway, and then getting other gliders, saying they were bred with the finer lines.

If you paid 5000.00 for a glider whose line was great, most people would'n be quick to risk muddying up that line. but if you only paid 500 for it, most would be more lax on who to breed it to. why, because now the high dollar gliders are too expensive and to someone that can't afford 10,000 for a clean pair, they too would look at 500 is better than nothing.. and the price drops across the board,. making it easy for anyone to breed, and thus less care is taken on the lines and purity. basic business. look at the Rolls Royce,or Lamborghini's, they won't lower their prices so that the everyday people can afford their cars, they want people who is going to appreciate them, not modify them and would treasure them. Fact is people don't want to buy clean lines, they want to breed their own.

4. Color breeding is about money
I used to think so too and was very public about it. Then I found out that color breeders are not in it for the money, after speaking with several of them that should be rolling in the dough, they are not.. why? because everyone owes them, there has been gliders passed hands in trust that haven't been paid for, some are on payment plans, some are waiting for offspring to be born. but the truth of the matter is, those dollar amounts, are seldom collected. Friends helping friends get started or being nice by helping with the initial costs. only to have those friendships taken advantage of.

5.as for health issues, well, there are far too many gliders out here, mainly contributed by the inbreeding of mill breeders, and the breeding of those gliders to the few colors that also are sold or given away because of their weak traits/health issues etc.. that will make it impossible to breed out now. the color breeders are trying, it isn't them that is now the real problems, it is the next levels down etc..

this thread although discussing line breeding issues, was pointing to the color breeders, they will continue to line breed if needed to keep their lines clean, but they are at the least doing it by keeping records, culling out the undesirable traits, keeping linages, sharing info amoung other top breeders etc.. while at the same time, you have a much larger number of everyday owners that are breeding and paying no attention to the necessary things.

The sterile line should have been stopped at the beginning, but it was continued, now, talk about the sterile line (a serious issue I have)is as everyday as talk about the grays, talking with breeders of another species is appalled that that has been allowed to be bred through. and there is still people breeding the sterile lines.

there is far more that should be concerned with, the flooding of the everyday population to just anyone who wants to breed, the internal issues that can not be readily seen or found. The saving of so many rejected joeys (could have genetic issues as well) One of the things with the cloacal sm's, is we always suggest total neutering to prevent that line from reproducing. doing that there is far less cloacal self mutilating going on







Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Bourbon] #756019
03/27/09 06:01 PM
03/27/09 06:01 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
By the way.. when I first got my gliders the standard grays were going for 600+ each glider, the market got flooded they dropped to 200 for a few years, then as low as 100.. and has anyone seen what making them affordable for everyone has done? just like trigger said, everyone wants them, and few keep them, so off to rescues, cl, and gliders passed into several different homes.. for those that want the prices to go down, start breeding, sell your gliders for 50.00 and watch them, watch where they go, and how many times you find them in totally unsavory conditions.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Bourbon] #756021
03/27/09 06:03 PM
03/27/09 06:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
The saving of so many rejected joeys (could have genetic issues as well) One of the things with the cloacal sm's, is we always suggest total neutering to prevent that line from reproducing. doing that there is far less cloacal self mutilating going on.


Great point. I have thought this myself. Any rejected joey, in my opinion, should not be bred. What if there are underlying issues that we, the humans, could not detect but the mother or father sugar glider knew about right away? I don't think it's common practice to breed rejected joeys, but I haven't heard of a huge push toward making sure these gliders aren't bred either.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #756023
03/27/09 06:05 PM
03/27/09 06:05 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
rejected joeys are bred, some people neuter their males, but for the most part, especially if it is a color, it is bred.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Bourbon] #756024
03/27/09 06:06 PM
03/27/09 06:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Really? Without a concern for future problems or problems being passed on to offspring? Maybe it's just me, but that seems very irresponsible.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #756026
03/27/09 06:09 PM
03/27/09 06:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I agree, Jenny. It IS very irresponsible to breed rejected joeys. Sadly, it does happen though frown


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: sugarglidersuz] #756027
03/27/09 06:11 PM
03/27/09 06:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Do these breeders make it public knowledge that the parent was rejected? I think it should be pointed out on the lineage somewhere or something. I truly believe that is need-to-know information!


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: StitchsMom] #756030
03/27/09 06:15 PM
03/27/09 06:15 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
mind. you this isn't mainly the color breeders, but you can see posts after post about saving rejected joeys, this is something I myself have had issues with for years, I personally think that there is far too little info on the causes for rejection. "in my OPINION" i think mom and dad is so close to that joey, they can hear the heart beat, they know when it is not eating right, or if there is something else wrong. I personally think they should decide. if you have joeys that are rejected time after time, then that is an issue that should be stopped, (non-breeding), it is not uncommon for them to reject their first litter, but when a glider is constantly rejecting.. then there is a reason. I think the reason of lack of milk production, is not a valid cause, we have to look at why the milk production is low, and either fix it or go non-breeding.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Bourbon] #756033
03/27/09 06:25 PM
03/27/09 06:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,318
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,318
LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: StitchsMom
Do these breeders make it public knowledge that the parent was rejected? I think it should be pointed out on the lineage somewhere or something. I truly believe that is need-to-know information!


That's all good information, Lori, but still doesn't answer Jenny's question, and I realize you are not responsible for the breeders who should be answering it. It just doesn't get answered.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: Bourbon] #756038
03/27/09 06:30 PM
03/27/09 06:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
wclanton423 Offline
Glider Guardian
wclanton423  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Bourbon

The sterile line should have been stopped at the beginning, but it was continued, now, talk about the sterile line (a serious issue I have)is as everyday as talk about the grays, talking with breeders of another species is appalled that that has been allowed to be bred through. and there is still people breeding the sterile lines.


I in no way have any experience about this subject but doesn't the breeding of sterile lines give responsible owner's the chance to actually own a color that normally they would not be able to afford if they are just wanting as a pet, not to breed? Obviously these gliders are sold at a much lower price than normal. Can someone explain why breeders continue to breed sterile lines?


Whitney

~Southland Sugar Gliders~


Mommy to:
:grey: :rtmo: :leu: :wfb:
my dogs, Duke and Nikki
my cat Puma
my awesome bunny Swayzee

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: wclanton423] #756043
03/27/09 06:33 PM
03/27/09 06:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
I own a sterile lion male. He isn't fixed yet, but will be. He has never produced. However, IF the pair surprised me with a baby or two before I get him neutered, male joeys would be fixed and they would all stay here regardless of gender. I won't be responsible for adding to sterility issues.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding. [Re: KarenE] #756047
03/27/09 06:35 PM
03/27/09 06:35 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I can't answer her question as I don't watch the linages that close, as I am a non breeding home, therefore linages are not important to me.

however, Jenny, you ask about the breeders, i can not answer for them, but there is the board, lately there has been few posts regarding things not going right, as before the public was pretty much kept abreast on the various issues the breeders were having .. but as time goes on, and there is more ridicule, rather than constructive discussion, there is far less postings.

It would be more interesting to me, to see exactly how many people have colors, that have bred. Not just the bigger more well known breeders but everyone. Something simple just for stat purposes.. there are pictures everywhere. look just for personal curiosity how much info is posted about them, their history their linages, problems etc.

I was not pinpointing anyone in particular, just making general observations.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver 

Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 388 guests, and 86 spiders.
Key: , , Owner, Admin
Newest Members
Mellefrl, klowvrrr, gracefulguardian, KiyokoTheDoll, Hazelneko
7324 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums132
Topics10,374
Posts159,160
posts in the last 24hrs0
Members7,324
Most Online2,693
Jan 2nd, 2020
Last 10 New Topics
Logging in Problem
by Anonymous. 03/24/24 11:43 AM
Gliders of the Round Table 10
by Hutch. 03/07/24 10:50 PM
Cloaca swollen?
by Mellefrl. 03/04/24 02:39 PM
2024 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw. 08/15/23 02:37 PM
Stewie:" It's MY Mouse!"
by Ladymagyver. 05/25/21 09:57 AM
Gliders of the Round Table 9
by Hutch. 02/12/19 11:35 PM
Custom Cage Liners Machine Wash & Dry
by gr8pots. 06/03/14 10:25 AM
Popular Topics(Views)
849,555 TEXAS
679,070 OHIO
487,141 OKLAHOMA
432,147 UTAH
321,667 NORTH CAROLINA
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!
Home Forums Links Sitemap Vets Breeders Sounds Contact Us Names Rules & Policies

GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2024
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.088s Queries: 15 (0.022s) Memory: 1.5531 MB (Peak: 1.9655 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2024-03-28 13:42:18 UTC