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Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835733
09/09/09 08:25 PM
09/09/09 08:25 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Sorry.. yes Arby was had leg cramping a month ago but Gollum has not been. Nicole is not saying the reason her gliders are having is diet related.. Her vet said the reason the CA:PH ratios are like is diet related.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835736
09/09/09 08:29 PM
09/09/09 08:29 PM
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Guerita135 Offline
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Originally Posted By: 7glider7
I also feel like if HPW was the sole issue, a lot of people would be seeing sick gliders.


Gollum shows NO signs of being sick, always cleans his plate, is a healthy size/weight, and looks as healthy as a horse! If I had not gotten the blood drawn, then I would have never known that anything was wrong.

Does he LOOK unhealthy to you?



~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835738
09/09/09 08:31 PM
09/09/09 08:31 PM
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BTW, to those that seem to think I'm making up illnesses and problems with my gliders(and think it's funny to say I have Munchhausen's)...does this look made-up to you?



That's Precious' mating wound.

Just thought I'd clear that up...


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835745
09/09/09 08:43 PM
09/09/09 08:43 PM
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Guerita135 Offline
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Oh yeah, I thought I'd toss in a little bit of happy news! I checked Silvara last night(and again just now, to make sure) and she's got a joey IP! dance She's about a week or 2 along. grin

So, it looks like I was wrong about Woodrow being too young and inexperienced. roflmao

Now I'd better hurry up and figure out how to get everyone's calcium levels up so they can get better and my girls won't be forced to pull their babies! cry


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835746
09/09/09 08:46 PM
09/09/09 08:46 PM

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Twinkles
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Just a thought, if the ph ratio is off that far, could the gliders be okay, unless they get sick & then aren't able to fight off the sickness? I am going to have 3 of my gliders checked, where should the results be posted at? It might be a good idea to see if one/two of the more experienced glider vets would be willing to take a copy of any results, see what is being feed, so they can see if there are any big differences in diets. It could also be used for when vets need to do consults. dunno

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835754
09/09/09 09:05 PM
09/09/09 09:05 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Apparently they can Beth because mine have. :\ We've got over 30 gliders and only 3 have shown any symptoms of having something wrong and in all 3 cases I think it was brought on by something else exaggerating the problem. Rosa and Leda both had joeys once right after the other and Arby had giardia. Both of those problems would cause the calcium levels to be lowered even more.

Perhaps we should start a new thread for blood results?

BTW, here is something my vet printed up for me about gliders. She highlighted the stuff regaurding nutrition. The first page is just her note to me(I'd ask the secretary to ask her what some of the symptoms might be of high phos/low cal so that people here will know what to look out for):

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/SCAN0047.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/SCAN0049.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/SCAN0050.jpg


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835756
09/09/09 09:10 PM
09/09/09 09:10 PM
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Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Nicole if your gliders are pulling joeys and your ratios are all off should they be breeding? I mean seriously are you producing unhealthy babies?


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835759
09/09/09 09:19 PM
09/09/09 09:19 PM

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lovely1inred
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Hey Nicole, can you give me the reference article or book that those pages are from? I wanna read the whole thing smile

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835760
09/09/09 09:22 PM
09/09/09 09:22 PM

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lovely1inred
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Oh...something I thought of about Precious's mating wound...

Not too long ago LuckyGlider posted on his blog about one of their rescues having a mating wound that had actually scabbed over, already been to the vet, they thought it was healing fine. Turns out the top scabby part was hiding necrotic tissue underneath, that they never suspected. So maybe something like that was happening with her, even if not necrotic, the top healing faster than the bottom or something and that may be why it was torn open again???

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835762
09/09/09 09:23 PM
09/09/09 09:23 PM
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Guerita135 Offline
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They aren't pulling their joeys Sheila. Where did you get that from?

I've only ever lost joeys ONCE and that was with Precious. She had THREE joeys IP and pulled 2 of them. Also, during that time I'd been treating her for Giardia(she didn't have it, but we still treated her and her mate), had her cage moved twice, cleaned constantly, had all her toys/bedding taken away, and had her sons taken away(they were already over 3 months old).

I was honestly surprised she kept Kitty AND that she didn't pull any joeys sooner considering all the stress I put on the poor girl.

Are you saying I should stop breeding because of THAT?!

Also, I am NOT producing ANY unhealthy babies! Every single one of my joeys has a vet-check AND a fecal within 1 week of going to their new home. None of the joeys I've sent home have EVER been sick!

Last I checked, you do NOT do fecals or vet-checks on your joeys, so how would YOU know if you sent home a sick joey? I, on the other hand, am doing everything in my power to ensure that ALL my gliders are healthy and that all my joeys are healthy as well. I don't just check the parents and ASSUME the joeys are healthy. As has been seen in this thread alone...anything can happen!

Example: did you know that Precious and Freedom are both negative for Giardia? They had multiple fecals AND snap tests done, all of which were negative. However, can you imagine what would have happened if I'd sent their babies, Arby and Chief, to their new homes without vet checks?!

That is why, imo, breeders should ALWAYS get fecals and vet checks done on their joeys before sending them to their new homes. Just because the parents aren't sick doesn't mean squat!


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835764
09/09/09 09:28 PM
09/09/09 09:28 PM
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Ohio
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I don't know where they're from Lovely. It looks like an encyclopedia or something. I'll have to ask the vet tomorrow. wink She left RIGHT when I pulled in the driveway to get those papers today(and my vet records on the gliders that had bloodwork done) so I didn't get to speak with her.

Thanks for the heads up about the mating wound too! I had the vet run a culture on it and she's being treated with Clavamox. If it turns out there's something nasty lurking underneath the we'll find out and can either continue with the Clavamox or give her something different to treat it better. wink


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835770
09/09/09 09:51 PM
09/09/09 09:51 PM

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I have two babies from Nicole and they are not showing any signs of illness. She had vet checks and fecals done before I brought them home and they have been great. So I do not believe for one second that Nicole is selling unhealthy babies. I have been to her house and her gliders are very well taken care of, and have seen her babies. She is a great breeder. I just hope we can figure out what is wrong with her babies soon so things can get better.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835771
09/09/09 09:55 PM
09/09/09 09:55 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Hey Nicole, can you give me the reference article or book that those pages are from? I wanna read the whole thing smile


It looks like either The Exotic Guidebook or Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835776
09/09/09 09:58 PM
09/09/09 09:58 PM

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lovely1inred
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Awesome...off to Amazon! Thanks Kris!

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835779
09/09/09 10:05 PM
09/09/09 10:05 PM
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Posts: 5,336
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Bourbon Offline
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For starts no I did not give that to Nicole,...

those figures are in a chart that has been circulated for years coming from the Australian vets and researchers, I first seen it, back in the mid 90's and is very commonly referenced in most current papers

I know that Rosemary J booth referenced it in much of her work as well as Dr Geoff Pye, John Carpenter, as well as Ian Hume and AP Smith. It has been referenced by many

Last edited by Bourbon; 09/09/09 10:05 PM.
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Bourbon] #835782
09/09/09 10:12 PM
09/09/09 10:12 PM

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What?? You mean you didnt write those books Bourbon.. OMG..Please dont totally ruin my day and tell me you dont walk on water either!! roflmao

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835790
09/09/09 10:29 PM
09/09/09 10:29 PM
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Guerita135 Offline
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roflmao

That's the ONLY article that I've gotten that wasn't from you(directly or indirectly, lol).

Thanks for your support Tara(now if only Onyx would be a good girl and ACT like she came from me! ROFL! Little stinker! roflmao). hug2

Aside from Tara, I've also had Leyna and Katarina(zenexotics) come to my house and they can both vouch to my gliders being taken good care of and are VERY spoiled. I wish you could have seen how my cages NORMALLY look Tara, you totally missed out! lol.

BTW, Sheila, IF the HPW is the problem, then you'd better tell your vet to get ready for a bunch of neuters since you feed it too and so that would mean all your gliders are also "unhealthy". roflmao


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835793
09/09/09 10:32 PM
09/09/09 10:32 PM
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Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135


Now I'd better hurry up and figure out how to get everyone's calcium levels up so they can get better and my girls won't be forced to pull their babies! cry


Sorry Nicole, it looks like you were implying that they do that or could do that. (pull their joeys)

You are stating that your gliders have unhealthy blood levels, so wouldn'that mean their babies have the same blood levels? If they have these blood levels as Dr. Tristen said, there is something else going on besides diet so it seems you would want to figure that out before selling any other joeys?


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835801
09/09/09 10:42 PM
09/09/09 10:42 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Well, up until today, I didn't know that it was a problem with ALL my gliders. I thought it was just HLP with Leda. diet was only one of many POSSIBLE issues.

All of my "clients" had been informed about everything going on(I'm posting every detail here on GC as well, so I'm obviously not trying to hide anything) and they all know they've got the option to back out of the adoptions or they can go ahead and adopt the babies, but must get fecals done again, just to make sure there's nothing up. And, if anything DOES pop up, I'll help with the vet bills. They'll also, once again, have the option to return the joey(s) for a full refund OR they can also have the option to neuter/retire the glider and keep them as pet-only, in which case I'll lower their prices to pet-only.

By the time someone buys a joey from me, odds are, we've got many, many pages of PMs/IMs/Emails or already know each other really well and those people know me well enough to know that I love my gliders, do everything for them, and would never in a million years adopt a baby I thought was sick and screw them over.

If my vet is correct(which I think she is) then the problems(aside from the giardia, of course) my gliders are having is from their diet(whether it be the HPW, fruits, veggies, mealies, etc...). If that's the case, then it doesn't take much more beyond a switch of diet and then we ought to start seeing some improvement within a matter of weeks. wink

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't MOST breeders who've been breeding a while(yourself included) switched diets before? If so, then didn't they do it because they didn't feel their current diet was adequate enough?

Well, that's where I am, so, I'm doing what any other breeder would do, and I'm going to switch their diets. I don't see that as a reason to completely spazz and neuter all my boys. tounge diet can easily be fixed. wink


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835818
09/09/09 11:05 PM
09/09/09 11:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Nicole I don't think anyone implied that you were trying to hide anything.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835826
09/09/09 11:24 PM
09/09/09 11:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
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