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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841145
09/20/09 12:13 PM
09/20/09 12:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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Im sorry but when I have a *research* going on it is brought forward with which vet and which group working with that vet is.

You came on here and it sounded to me and a few others that I have spoken to, that you already had your vets, teams, and such together. If someone was on board and believed in what kind of research was being done, there would be no reason to be a *silent partner* but that is just my own personal opinion.

Best of luck with what you all are trying to do. I do hope that you all get the grants you are trying for, as it isnt very easy even for a veterinarian to get, little less a group of animal lovers. grin


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841155
09/20/09 12:28 PM
09/20/09 12:28 PM

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Originally Posted By: Srlb
Im sorry but when I have a *research* going on it is brought forward with which vet and which group working with that vet is.

You came on here and it sounded to me and a few others that I have spoken to, that you already had your vets, teams, and such together. If someone was on board and believed in what kind of research was being done, there would be no reason to be a *silent partner* but that is just my own personal opinion.

Peggy, we do already have 2 vets.. I am sorry *I* do not feel comfortable posting their names publicly before getting their approval.. to me that is just RUDE.. But I will be asking their permission to do so. If the people participating want to announce it to the world they most certainly can.. I however will NOT as some do NOT want their diets released with their names attached to be ridiculed.. So I will leave that up to them.

Best of luck with what you all are trying to do. I do hope that you all get the grants you are trying for, as it isnt very easy even for a veterinarian to get, little less a group of animal lovers. grin

It is very difficult, my vet has been working with the National Zoo trying to get a grant for almost a year.. it takes a long time. TGI is however already pre-approved for grants.. Karen is starting the paperwork now, people and their gliders are in place, vets are on board.. we are getting it going. Thank you so much for your encouragement! grin


Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841156
09/20/09 12:30 PM
09/20/09 12:30 PM

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Oh and Jen I was not ignoring you or Anita.. I just answered you both on SGN!

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Bourbon] #841159
09/20/09 12:34 PM
09/20/09 12:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
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Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I don't really think now is the time to do any changing in the diets , any of them, at least until we know how the calcium is actually being processed. How will this community study show how calcium is being processed?

there is several that is willing to change up in their diets after a panel is run, to see what kind of changes are taking place. Change up how? and depending on what outcomes?

It will give the group that is working on this the opportunity to look at all of the diets and the effects the differences in calcium intake has on the bloodwork figures. What effect from differences are being looked for & will the calcium & phosphorus ratios be calculated simply as a whole or will there be work to figure the ACTUAL available absorbable content of food items that are fed by various members?

to find out if the requirements of the gliders calcium intake and phos levels (here in the states, in captivity) needs to be a 2:1 ratio at all, or if the gliders has a special way they are metabolizing their calcium needs. How will simply knowing if what goes in differs from what comes out in blood give us these answers?
The results of this community study, will make huge impacts in the diet areas, and will probably affect all of the diets. What HUGE impacts do you anticipate from this study?

everyone chose their current diet for a reason, and should stick with those choices, till at least blood work is drawn.
What conclusion from this study should indicate a change needed?



without looking at what is going on as to what their needs are NOW, How will this study tell us what their needs are now?


It appears to me from this post that detailed scientific data is being sought & useful conclusions anticipated??? Yet BLG states that this study is ONLY to see if Ca:P ratios fed match or vary from Ca:P seen in blood panels?????


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kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841163
09/20/09 12:38 PM
09/20/09 12:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
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Kris I haven't made it back over to SGN but would like you to copy answers here as well so that GC may also follow.

I don't think that Peggy is asking for community members or their diets to be released publicly only the licensed personnel working on your project.


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841166
09/20/09 12:46 PM
09/20/09 12:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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Quote:
EVERYONE PLEASE STOP!!!!

This is NOT a diet study..


Quote:
let me explain, I have had several people call me recently about going back to the BML, and asking about adding calcium into their HPW.

Kris has a great idea to get the bloodwork done, not just for the people on HPW but as many people and as varied as possible, to really see what the figures all look like. there is several that is willing to change up in their diets after a panel is run, to see what kind of changes are taking place.


Quote:
It will give the group that is working on this the opportunity to look at all of the diets and the effects the differences in calcium intake has on the bloodwork figures.



Quote:
let me know what questions you still have.


Quote:
Kris if this is NOT a diet study what preliminary results ARE you trying to get?



Also, yes, please do share what is being said over on SGN as not all of us are members over there. From what I understand though, many think this IS a diet study as well, yet you stated Kris that it is not. I am not sure what this will be for then.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841171
09/20/09 12:51 PM
09/20/09 12:51 PM

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This endeavor is being attempted with the best of intentions, and I'm sure all glider supporters would like more and better information to better help their pets. However, this will not tell you what you hope to learn.

Calcium levels might be useful during a catastrophic illness in which normal homeostasis and physiology are way off kilter. Calcium metabolism can be very abnormal during shock and sepsis, and knowing the calcium status of an individual animal might be useful in such an event to be able to treat it effectively.

Testing blood calcium levels to verify diet effectiveness will not work. It simply will not.

The hormones that regulate calcium physiology will not allow blood levels to move outside the normal range. The mediators will enhance and increase absorption to gain more calcium out of the bioavailable diet load when need be (during low dietary intake). They will also pull calcium out of the bone to maintain blood levels. During periods of dietary excess they will also absorb less, and if overpowered by huge excess, will excrete more calcium in waste if bone stores are good. Measuring blood levels of calcium will not tell about dietary sufficiency directly. I fear this will subject gliders to significant stress without any hope of a useful outcome or information.

If we collectively choose to collect a database of all bloodwork to learn more about "normal" levels, there are a few issues to address. First, don't add data from blood draws from sick animals. Then you would not be looking at "normal" levels, but levels of sick individuals. Adding those would taint your result. Second, drawing blood from a sick indivual may have merit to help the sick. To draw blood on non-sick animals subjects them to risk and suffering without much benefit to offset that risk. If this project added useful information, one might argue benefit - but it won't add helpful data. And third, each lab has different ranges of normals. Although these don't vary widely, the fact that they have different processes and different reagents and equipment leads to some differences in the normal range quoted for each lab. As you pool this data from different sources, you will increase your mathematical range, not narrow it. Since calcium levels are held very tightly in a normal individual, the wide range you will be getting will not give you data that can help you make conclusions.

Before this project is far along and many have undergone expense and gliders pain and stress, consider the matter carefully. This will not give you conclusive data to help you decide about dietary sufficiency.

I would be happy to speak to someone with questions. I only wish to make sure gliders don't suffer needlessly.

My email is one the site.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841176
09/20/09 01:04 PM
09/20/09 01:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
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Yes sir Schlep thats what my vet says as well. I just did not phrase my question correctly. Yes, my vet has access to the above mentioned MERK manual.


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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Cora] #841185
09/20/09 01:13 PM
09/20/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
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yes...after thinking about this some more, perhaps way too many variables for this to really work. Should be in controlled environment with different groups being fed diets and comparing results (like the previous posted article) Perhaps a wider range of diet types could be done this time.
large amount of gliders would need to be used as genetic differences MAY affect the way each glider processes its food (ie: why can some people eat like pigs and remain skinny yet I LOOK at cheescake and gain a pound!) I am sure this same kind of thing happens in animals as well. so a large amount of gliders to each diet to get a more acurate average would be needed.
if a glider eats a high calcium food one day but not the next how does that affect blood levels EACH day? think how that throws off the study.
think 2 blood draws is enough?
not sure about this. I think its a great idea, but I think it needs some "fine tuning"


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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841187
09/20/09 01:14 PM
09/20/09 01:14 PM

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Well.. everyone can come to SGN..LOL


When I say this is NOT a diet study I mean just that.. it is NOT a diet study...LOL but call it whatever you want..LOL We are pulling together 2 vets and approx 10 community members and their gliders to have serum levels checked for ca:ph ratios ONLY..we do not care what diet they are fed, as it does not matter! We want to see if feeding a diet of .8:1 to 3.6:1 ratios how that calcium is being used. We are looking for input and output only!

Again.. this little study is being done preliminary to getting a full grant. I am sure we will need to do several of these community studies for the grant paperwork and not just on c:p ratios.. it will likely be bone density mass, liver levels, etc etc etc and more etcs... we are starting here. We are hoping to have the first set of tests complete by the middle of Oct... we are moving on this while Karen is typing up paperwork for submission as this must accompany it.

Yes Schelp I just read your posts.. we are fully aware of all those concerns however.. this is the starting point we need for more information. We can't afford to have members take their gliders to have scans done on their bones to check for loss.. we need to show blood work/diet first.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841189
09/20/09 01:18 PM
09/20/09 01:18 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Everyone please try to keep in mind this is ONLY needed to start the process of a controlled study. We can NOT afford 50k for a full blown diet study.. however we do have the ability to ask the gov for help for one cant we... again this is NOT controlled.. we need to start somewhere right? this is where we are being told we need to start.. .so lets start!

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841191
09/20/09 01:22 PM
09/20/09 01:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
this is where we are being told we need to start.. .so lets start!


By whom?


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kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841192
09/20/09 01:25 PM
09/20/09 01:25 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Quote:
Testing blood calcium levels to verify diet effectiveness will not work. It simply will not.

The hormones that regulate calcium physiology will not allow blood levels to move outside the normal range. The mediators will enhance and increase absorption to gain more calcium out of the bioavailable diet load when need be (during low dietary intake). They will also pull calcium out of the bone to maintain blood levels. During periods of dietary excess they will also absorb less, and if overpowered by huge excess, will excrete more calcium in waste if bone stores are good. Measuring blood levels of calcium will not tell about dietary sufficiency directly. I fear this will subject gliders to significant stress without any hope of a useful outcome or information.


That is EXACTLY what we are looking at!! EXACTLY... We want to show that even though you get your gliders blood checked and you get back a ratio of 2:1 when you are ONLY feeding 1:1 where is the add'l calcium coming from... standard Xrays do not show a bone loss until you have lost approx 30%... scans are VERY expensive and this is IF you can find a vet that will have the proper equipments.. etc.. We want to know if gliders "store" their calcium.. can too much be toxic, can you really not give too much? These are all the things we are hoping to find the answers to.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841194
09/20/09 01:29 PM
09/20/09 01:29 PM

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crystal is urine? calcium deposits on bones..etc etc etc ..

People are thinking that because you have blood drawls and xrays done yearly.. their gliders diet is wonderful and they have healthy gliders.. this simply may not be the case.. we have gliders dying very young.. why?

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841195
09/20/09 01:32 PM
09/20/09 01:32 PM

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Also not just what happens with the calcium but the ph as well!

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841199
09/20/09 01:39 PM
09/20/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Quote:
we have gliders dying very young.. why?


Could be SOOO many reasons...

So lets start, yes of course it could be diet related along with...

Out of these young gliders, how many were supplemented? And I dont mean the ones that where the mother actually died, but those that the moms didnt want to feed.

Environment, illnesses that the owner may not have even known about, parasites that once again the owner did not know about winds up killing the glider, infections, there are SO many reasons why a glider can die young.

Look at some of the rescues that folks take in, some fed hamster or bird food, and they live to be 15 like pacman did. I am sure Pacman was not on a *approved diet* all his life, but do think because of the environment and care and love he got from Mary and Charlie is the reason he lived so long.

Why do some people die young? Personally, I think that if a diet is working for you and your gliders and you are indeed having your annual workups done, you will be able to see if numbers are changing. If they do, that is when you need to look into it further and ask yourself why.

Kris, you say it HAS to be 30% loss in order to see it, but I personally think that when I take my gliders in and they have their xrays done and when Tim takes out their old xrays and compares it, if there is ANY change, I bet he would be able to see it.

It would be interesting to see HOW the calcium is used, but like Trigger said up there somewhere earlier, you need to find out from EACH food you feed HOW much ca and how much Phosphorus is actually being used by each animal. Much like people, I am sure each animal will be different as well.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841211
09/20/09 02:01 PM
09/20/09 02:01 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
we have gliders dying very young.. why?


Could be SOOO many reasons...

Of course that's true.. however.. why not start looking at diets?

So lets start, yes of course it could be diet related along with...

Out of these young gliders, how many were supplemented? And I dont mean the ones that where the mother actually died, but those that the moms didnt want to feed.

Environment, illnesses that the owner may not have even known about, parasites that once again the owner did not know about winds up killing the glider, infections, there are SO many reasons why a glider can die young.

Look at some of the rescues that folks take in, some fed hamster or bird food, and they live to be 15 like pacman did. I am sure Pacman was not on a *approved diet* all his life, but do think because of the environment and care and love he got from Mary and Charlie is the reason he lived so long.

How true that is... first no diet is "approved".. and that leaves the question.. what should we fed? Lets find out.. if feeding a diet with .8:1 ration no harm is really being done. Lets find out how long it takes of eating a diet not balanced before we see bone loss.. ever, never? let find out.

Why do some people die young? Personally, I think that if a diet is working for you and your gliders and you are indeed having your annual workups done, you will be able to see if numbers are changing. If they do, that is when you need to look into it further and ask yourself why.

Kris, you say it HAS to be 30% loss in order to see it, but I personally think that when I take my gliders in and they have their xrays done and when Tim takes out their old xrays and compares it, if there is ANY change, I bet he would be able to see it.

Its not me that says so.. its Dr's and vets that say so... let me ask you this... it you take in a glider for xrays and all looks good. next year same thing all looks great, following year again all looks good.. until the forth year when Tim sees something.. the standard xrays will NOT detect. show ANYTHING until a minium amount of loss is there... so now you are 4 years and bones loss... It's not personal against Tim or any vet.. my vet who has been in exotics for 25 years.. it the machine.. it's not there until its there... how long until its there?.. I want to find out!

It would be interesting to see HOW the calcium is used, but like Trigger said up there somewhere earlier, you need to find out from EACH food you feed HOW much ca and how much Phosphorus is actually being used by each animal. Much like people, I am sure each animal will be different as well.

Correct.. however that will NOT be my job, that will be a team of nutritionist, vets, scientist, labs etc... no me!


Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841215
09/20/09 02:05 PM
09/20/09 02:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders


People are thinking that because you have blood drawls and xrays done yearly.. their gliders diet is wonderful and they have healthy gliders..


I would venture to guess that MOST people rely on their vet telling them if their gliders are healthy or not, when all outward appearances look fine. I do. If I thought I could just willy nilly guesstimate whether my glider was healthy I wouldn't need to go to a vet.

BLG you use a vet correct? Does your vet tell you during your visit whether your gliders are healthy or not, relying on their education, experience and knowledge of gliders along with tests to determine that opinion? When they give you the "healthy" or "unhealthy" do you question that or accept that?


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kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841219
09/20/09 02:20 PM
09/20/09 02:20 PM

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You really think our vets know everything there is to know about our gliders? If that is the case.. then we should never do anything!

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841221
09/20/09 02:30 PM
09/20/09 02:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
No I do not think our vets know everything, I was simply stating that most of us don't just feed, see if the glider is still breathing & just assume that all is amazing.

We go find good knowledgable vets and have them checked routinely to catch problems & if I didn't trust my vet when she tells me my joeys are healthy then how could I realistically send one to a new home?

Again, do you trust your vets opinion for the most part when they tell you your glider is well or ill?


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841227
09/20/09 02:39 PM
09/20/09 02:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
You responded to my questions on SGN stating that people are feeding diets that are 1:1 and trying to feed 2:1 and your study is in part to determine if the diets are reaaly OK etc

Here is my response because I still DO NOT believe we as a community have the ratios per food item figured correctly & that being so, your tests will NOT give a true answer because it IMO is not based on REAL ratios from the get go.

"Subject: Re: Thinking out loud Today at 13:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to know but as I have stated before at this point WE don't really have a clue WHAT the ratios truly are at all.
We don't even understand yet that different foods have different amounts of available & absorbable minerals, nor how each is mineral is concentrated in which area of each food & all that has to be figured out before you can even tell me WHAT ratio is going in.

Example rasberries have a x:x ratio but how much calcium is available & in what area of that rasberry, same for phosphorus.
The given ratio you have as a whole is totally incorrect in relation to what is eaten by a glider & what part of that is absorbed.

From reading I have seen that the P is more concentrated in a rasberry's seeds & is unavailable. That amount is approximately 50% of the overall P of the berry. The available calcium is higher(can't remember all the numbers off the top of my head).

So my point is when you are adding up the ratios as you see them they will NOT be correct unless you are going to research EVERY food item & figure out as closely as possible what the REAL ratio is. IMO making the study innefective, because is is partially based on incorrect data from the start."


This takes NO other unknown or incorrect data into account & I am sure there are others involved that would also negatively impact results.

I think there is MUCH more that needs to be researched and taken in to account BEFORE have gliders put under & owners out money.


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841231
09/20/09 02:44 PM
09/20/09 02:44 PM

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Originally Posted By: Trigger
No I do not think our vets know everything, I was simply stating that most of us don't just feed, see if the glider is still breathing & just assume that all is amazing.

I never said or even suggested that.. I said thru blood work and xrays right?

We go find good knowledgable vets and have them checked routinely to catch problems & if I didn't trust my vet when she tells me my joeys are healthy then how could I realistically send one to a new home?

Again, do you trust your vets opinion for the most part when they tell you your glider is well or ill?

Yes I trust my vet but he like ANY good vet should say.."AS FAR AS WE KNOW"

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841233
09/20/09 02:48 PM
09/20/09 02:48 PM

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geez o flip Jen.. you dont think this has been done with food already!!??!! There are thousands of food studies, nutritional studies THOUSANDS... etc... We already know the absorable rate, parts that have xx and located where.. etc oranges.. we already know that the bulk of C and vit is in the peel.. This is common knowledge.

What is the incorrect data you are referring to???

We already have guidelines laid out for what we feed from 1million scientist and nutritionist. Are you saying we need to again dissect the banana??

sorry but this is the last time I'm going to cross posts.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841238
09/20/09 03:00 PM
09/20/09 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
I don't have access to that GLIDER ratio list. BLG if you have one could you please share it with me.


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841240
09/20/09 03:08 PM
09/20/09 03:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Does this really have to be so difficult? Kris, please send me exactly what you are wanting tested, I think I have found a way to get the bloodwork done. Maybe. I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.

Last edited by queenduck; 09/20/09 03:10 PM.

Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: queenduck] #841243
09/20/09 03:15 PM
09/20/09 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.



Yes maam I would like it as well, you know how I am ALWAYS on you about those nails...I want to make sure you have gotten on the right track!! roflmao


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841248
09/20/09 03:34 PM
09/20/09 03:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: queenduck
Does this really have to be so difficult?


If you want to progress? yes. I think it does. Maybe these questions will make people think. My point from the start is you can not add 2+2 get 5 and then build on that. IF the numbers are WRONG from the start they will ALWAYS be wrong until someone corrects them.
I think that for years we as a community have based our calculation on WHOLE numbers supplied by the USDA. So yes I am saying that depending on what part of any given food and the amount of available mineral in ONLY that part of the food our gliders eat we need to FIRST look at our numbers. That is the easiest and least invasive point at which we can start. After we get those correct and at least figure out our true ratios then let us start looking at knocking out gliders TWICE in a 30 day period for blood work.

Will your analysis of bloodwork be accurate if you are basing your calculations on wrong numbers to start?


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841256
09/20/09 03:48 PM
09/20/09 03:48 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
B



Originally Posted By: Trigger
Originally Posted By: queenduck
Does this really have to be so difficult?


If you want to progress? yes. I think it does. Maybe these questions will make people think. My point from the start is you can not add 2+2 get 5 and then build on that. IF the numbers are WRONG from the start they will ALWAYS be wrong until someone corrects them.
I think that for years we as a community have based our calculation on WHOLE numbers supplied by the USDA. So yes I am saying that depending on what part of any given food and the amount of available mineral in ONLY that part of the food our gliders eat we need to FIRST look at our numbers. That is the easiest and least invasive point at which we can start. After we get those correct and at least figure out our true ratios then let us start looking at knocking out gliders TWICE in a 30 day period for blood work.

Will your analysis of bloodwork be accurate if you are basing your calculations on wrong numbers to start?


OK, I dont think I am understanding what you are saying Jen.. so let me ask..

Are you saying the USDA chemical analysis of food is wrong?

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841258
09/20/09 03:50 PM
09/20/09 03:50 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
B



Quote:
I don't have access to that GLIDER ratio list. BLG if you have one could you please share it with me.


of course we dont have this Jen.. NO ONE does.. Why do you think we want a grant for a true diet study?

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841260
09/20/09 03:51 PM
09/20/09 03:51 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
B



Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
I"ll be glad to send it to anyone that is interested in it, along with my diet and nail trimming schedule.



Yes maam I would like it as well, you know how I am ALWAYS on you about those nails...I want to make sure you have gotten on the right track!! roflmao


roflmao OMG that is the funniest thing I've read all day!! roflmao

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