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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841579
09/20/09 10:26 PM
09/20/09 10:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
You could always do blood panels now on your gliders and have your vet advise you if everything is as it should be. Just a thought.


And that is the whole point now isn't it? But all the diets, not just Reep's should be examined and if it is being done, why not provide those results for the TGI to include on their grant proposal?

There has to be a starting point and why not this one? As I understand things, they are getting vets lined up. They are working on more "details" on how the "study" will be done IF/WHEN grants are approved. None of us can afford the type of study everyone wants to see take place, not even "us" as a community. For that, grants are going to be needed.

This might not be ideal and it might not provide any real answers, may only cause more questions but if not started here, then where?

I guess I don't understand the resistance to this "informal" study to get the ball rolling.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: DeeDancer] #841596
09/20/09 10:43 PM
09/20/09 10:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian
Marz  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: DeeDancer

Our diets are based off of what wild gliders eat.


Actually the US diets are based off captive glider diets from Healesville sanctuary and other zoo facility sources here not wild glider diets. Whilst parts of these diets try to emulate some of what wild gliders eat, the sanctuary for instance has researched diet nutritional requirements with their own captive gliders in mind. Each animal is microchipped, weighed and health checked regularly which includes full bloodwork/xrays done under anaesthetic.

Wildlife carers who are rehabbing wild gliders here in Australia, do not feed these diets at all as they are not suitable for gliders going back into the wild. Some will feed a slurry of lorikeet nectar or honey/water(to emulate nectar) along with blossoms/branches and insects but that's it. For instance, yoghurt is not fed here to wild gliders (or captive bred who are fed native flora) as it upsets their natural gut florae developed so they can digest native plants.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Marz] #841609
09/20/09 10:56 PM
09/20/09 10:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Marz, how large are the enclosures for gliders in Australian sanctuaries and zoo facilities?

While those gliders may be technically captive, they still have a LOT more room to move around than our 3x3x6 cages like mine (and some aren't even that large). I still feel that gliders in sanctuary in Australia will have different nutritional needs than our gliders here in the US.


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: DeeDancer] #841612
09/20/09 10:58 PM
09/20/09 10:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Oh, and thank you for answering my question, Peggy. I have another but it's a bit off topic, so I'm sending you a PM smile


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841625
09/20/09 11:10 PM
09/20/09 11:10 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
B



Originally Posted By: Trigger
[quote=Srlb]
Quote:

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

I dont think you have an understanding on what the USDA does.. it analyzes food.. who eats it doesnt matter.. it ONLY DOES THE FOOD! the entire food and prepared 100 different ways. You are saying that the USDA only analyzes boiled collard because that is the way most people eat them? NO that is not true!

Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.


Jen you need a study ONLY for YOUR gliders then, my gliders eat everything.. the husk on greenbeans, the stalk on collards.. everything!Sorry I totally disagree with what you are saying.


Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing] #841629
09/20/09 11:14 PM
09/20/09 11:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
T, I believe it was simply the way it was presented, at least for me it was,
IF you are simply looking for blood results on gliders then simple ask for blood work
IF you want to compare input (CA:P) then figure(CORRECTLY) the numbers going in vs the numbers comingout on bloodwork
IF you are looking for more be SPECIFIC about what you want to look for & stii make sure the data you are going in with is CORRECT

As I told B on the phone numbers do not lie. If you have 1:1 going in & 1:1 coming out that is great BUT you MUST know what is REALLY going in to begin with.

I have stated that yes I believe our calculations have been wrong for ever so long. Is that my fault or your fault? NO
We were using what we knew & not until people started to question Peggy's blood work did I even question our calculations.

I started researching the differences in bio available minerals vs whole mineral content & next thing I knew I literally had my internet bogged down because I had about 75 pages open.

Started to see that WOW Ca & P are actually not just evenly distributed across any given fruit or vegi and BAM, I was interested, what does this mean in terms of my gliders? Well it means I gotta lot of work to do to really figure out the ratios of what I feed. HOLY COW

Am I glad that BLG and I have gone back & forth all day. YES! It is exciting, it is new ground, new info that could help us with gliders. But it is also LOTS of work to try to figure out JUST the simple ratios of any given food for our gliders.
Will it help gliders? yes I think so. Is it really needed to figure out all those REAL ratios? That's going to depend on who you ask, I have been a number freak from the start(I do taxes for people as a HOBBY, because I love numbers. I memorize all types of numbers, credit cards, bank accounts, hubby ssn & TDL, phone numbers... even the stupid ones)
so yes I am always going to think the numbers matter greatly.

I am in no way deluding my self that they are all that matters because I know for a fact that there are TONS more variables to consider that are so far above my head I can't even see them when I look up. There is the subject of glider absorbsion, which in itself holds a ton af variables. There is the effect of one mineral of vitamin on another, there is the digestive system of a glider, and yes even something so simple as whether or not my glider runs on a wheel as much as yours.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841634
09/20/09 11:19 PM
09/20/09 11:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
I guess I need to do a study on my own as well then because there are MANY things my gliders only pick at and do not eat all of, the green beans for one, they always leave the outside and eat the inside.

So if you are going to get ALL the numbers for this study that would be a good reason why it will be just as important on what a glider does NOT eat as well as what it DOES eat.

How many times have we all said, gliders are like humans and each is different.

So Kris are you stating then if someones glider does not eat everything like yours does, they need to have their own private study done?

How many others here have gliders that will pick apart their food and not eat everything??


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841636
09/20/09 11:20 PM
09/20/09 11:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
Originally Posted By: Trigger
[quote=Srlb]
Quote:

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

I dont think you have an understanding on what the USDA does.. it analyzes food.. who eats it doesnt matter.. it ONLY DOES THE FOOD! the entire food and prepared 100 different ways. You are saying that the USDA only analyzes boiled collard because that is the way most people eat them? NO that is not true!
No there are options on the site as to how YOUR collards are prepared.
Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.


Jen you need a study ONLY for YOUR gliders then, my gliders eat everything.. the husk on greenbeans, the stalk on collards.. everything!Sorry I totally disagree with what you are saying.Then if your gliders eat EVERY bit of what you give them , !
1 Lucky you & 2 yes every person with a glider that eats differently would need to figure ratios differently because your numbers & mine couldn't be the same & I thank you for that response because that in fact is a VERY big part of my point.
You see you would get my "1 tbls collards and figure it according to your WHOLE number supplied by the USDA & then turn around and apply that to my gliders as well when in fact it would not even nearly fit the way my gliders eat.



-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841645
09/20/09 11:29 PM
09/20/09 11:29 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
BabyLoveGliders
Unregistered
B



Good lord you guys I was being facetious!! If you honestly think that searching that haystack for a needle is EVER going to happen.. you are wrong! You will never believe in any diet study ever. You will always find fault with everything! There is NOT that much of a difference in the numbers of a glider not eating the vain of a collard..

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841661
09/20/09 11:38 PM
09/20/09 11:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Well I am sorry but in this discussion I deal with the fact, & only the facts. I am not looking to decifer facetious typing. Sorry for me this is a serious & not witty discussion.

Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%. To you maybe that is of none or little consequense but to me that can have a major impact the difference in what I AM feeding vs what I THINK I am feeding.

If this is a joke to you by all means remove yourself & I will understand completely but I do feel there are people on this board that can & will learn from my theory.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841675
09/20/09 11:46 PM
09/20/09 11:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
To me, this is overwhelming! LOL

Scientist haven't figured out EXACTLY what humans need to lead a healthy long life!

My grandmother on my fathers' side lived to be 100 years old, she ate a lot of potatoes, cornbread, meats, butter, lard, gravy, you name it and she ate it from the garden and farm. She was a TINY woman all of her life too!

Her son, my dad died at 73, never sick a day of his life until he got cancer, went down and passed away in 53 days from diagnosis to death. My dad didn't drink, he didn't smoke and ate a HEALTHY diet, took minerals and vitamins, etc,.

Me, I was born with problems and can't have ONE day without pain somewhere. I have diabetes and other medical problems that my parents and grandparents did NOT have.

I understand we all want to "make" our gliders live a very long healthy life by knowing everything we can about them but I think (IMO) that all of this blood work, ex-rays, vet visits and OUR own stress will do not do much more than stress out our gliders which in turn can make them ill.

Over the years, I have put myself through serious stress over diet for my gliders. I have purchased so many things for them to eat, snack on, etc, that I have driven myself nuts over it at times. In reality, they love what they are used to and aren't into trying out all of the things I've tried to give them from their "native" country. Their native country is here where they were born and raised, the U.S, not Indonesia, New Guinnea nor Australia. HERE!

I have decided to stop the insanity around here by simply accepting that my gliders are not "exotic" anymore. They are little redneck country hicks that glide from the states of Kentucky, Texas, Tennessee and Oklahoma, they will continue to eat the food they have always eaten (unless I decide to change their approved diet) I will continue to offer them different varieties since "I" would not want to eat the exact same things everyday myself.

We have a saying around here, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I think I will stick with this.

Every single human and animal is different, we can put the same foods into the same people and get off the chart results on blood work, same with our animals. More people and animals die from injury and accidents than anything else. Stress is a MAJOR killer. Putting gliders through so much stress isn't something I am willing to do with mine.

Sorry for the rant.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841676
09/20/09 11:47 PM
09/20/09 11:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
OBTW BLG my numbers are in my profile & if you would like to discuss this further call me.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #841685
09/20/09 11:53 PM
09/20/09 11:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
To me, this is overwhelming! LOL

Scientist haven't figured out EXACTLY what humans need to lead a healthy long life!

My grandmother on my fathers' side lived to be 100 years old, she ate a lot of potatoes, cornbread, meats, butter, lard, gravy, you name it and she ate it from the garden and farm. She was a TINY woman all of her life too!

Her son, my dad died at 73, never sick a day of his life until he got cancer, went down and passed away in 53 days from diagnosis to death. My dad didn't drink, he didn't smoke and ate a HEALTHY diet, took minerals and vitamins, etc,.

Me, I was born with problems and can't have ONE day without pain somewhere. I have diabetes and other medical problems that my parents and grandparents did NOT have.

I understand we all want to "make" our gliders live a very long healthy life by knowing everything we can about them but I think (IMO) that all of this blood work, ex-rays, vet visits and OUR own stress will do not do much more than stress out our gliders which in turn can make them ill.

Over the years, I have put myself through serious stress over diet for my gliders. I have purchased so many things for them to eat, snack on, etc, that I have driven myself nuts over it at times. In reality, they love what they are used to and aren't into trying out all of the things I've tried to give them from their "native" country. Their native country is here where they were born and raised, the U.S, not Indonesia, New Guinnea nor Australia. HERE!

I have decided to stop the insanity around here by simply accepting that my gliders are not "exotic" anymore. They are little redneck country hicks that glide from the states of Kentucky, Texas, Tennessee and Oklahoma, they will continue to eat the food they have always eaten (unless I decide to change their approved diet) I will continue to offer them different varieties since "I" would not want to eat the exact same things everyday myself.

We have a saying around here, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I think I will stick with this.

Every single human and animal is different, we can put the same foods into the same people and get off the chart results on blood work, same with our animals. More people and animals die from injury and accidents than anything else. Stress is a MAJOR killer. Putting gliders through so much stress isn't something I am willing to do with mine.

Sorry for the rant.


Your rant is duely noted & APPRECIATED. I agree my gliders will NOT indergo undue stress for experiments unless I am 100% assured that it will lead to a better & more fruitful life for them.
I feel we are behind on SIMPLE book knowledge that can be obtained before subjecting gliders to any stress.
I do not expect ALL to jump on board with this but all I ask is a little research on your computer to get a few numbers straight BEFORE you start sticking needles in your gliders looking for anwers that will not amount to anything UNTIL you get your numbers right to start.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #841688
09/20/09 11:54 PM
09/20/09 11:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Wanted to throw this in. I am allergic to animals (NOT gliders thank God!) One of my kids are also, two are not. One has an egg allergy, I do not nor the other 2. NONE of my kids are diabetic, I am. My oldest daughter has hip issues, my son has diverticulosis, my youngest daughter has a serious condition involving PRE cancer. They have none of MY problems, I have NONE of theirs. Yet, they all three came from the same body, same place raised, ate the same foods, lived in the same environment and STILL live in the same state.

Gliders like any living creature are all different.

My grandma lived on butter and lard, I LOVE butter but it hates me and if I eat potatoes (small example), I get sleepy and fat. (lol) She ate them her whole life and was a tiny 103 pounds.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #841701
09/21/09 12:15 AM
09/21/09 12:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Thanks Jen. smile

Notice that on vitamins, minerals AND many foods, that the USDA and FDA have a RECOMMENDED daily allowance (along with other warnings for certain conditions and to ask your doctor, yada yada) Why is everything we put into our bodies recommended? Simple. Because noone has it figured out EXACTLY yet. We've been around for thousands of years and still don't know what to eat or not to eat. How many times do we get the "okay" from the USDA or FDA to eat or take something, they come out later and tell us NOT to eat it or take it because they found it is actually harmful or could kill us! How many diets for humans have been found to make us ill or worse? Nutra sweet is a great example. It was developed (or whatever) for diabetics and obese people...years later we find out it was the cause of many brain disorders. This was supposed to be an all natural sweetener. Turned out, it is downright dangerous to many people! Before that was Sacharin (sp?) we all know now that was and is BAD. Now it's Splenda but it causes headaches among many other health problems and this stuff was to help make us healthy???? Yeah, I don't have much faith in the USDA or FDA to tell me what to eat or not and what meds to take to keep me healthy! and...that was only ONE example.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #841709
09/21/09 12:31 AM
09/21/09 12:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
I have to agree the USDA has steered us wrong a number of times(glad I wasn't running around on ALLI before they stated you may poop your self and stink all day) LOL

My questions on the ratios are actually much more simple that that. I simply want people to google the available and/or absorbable calcium or phosphorus of each thing before they take the USDA numbers for GOSPEL.

Really look at it ............ I am asking you to change nothing, to spend money to have nothing tested.
JUST look at the numbers for each food item & realize there IS a difference in what the USDA states & what YOUR glider consumes.
I don't want your studies, nor the credit for your work to figure out what your glider eats.
I ask for NO recognition, I only ask that you spend a few hours researching what your gliders really take in compared to the numbers that I presume are wrong.

I am litterally asking for only a few hours research on the AVAILABLE calcium or phosphorus your gliders REALLY take in.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841712
09/21/09 12:46 AM
09/21/09 12:46 AM

B
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Originally Posted By: Trigger
Well I am sorry but in this discussion I deal with the fact, & only the facts. I am not looking to decifer facetious typing. Sorry for me this is a serious & not witty discussion.

Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%. To you maybe that is of none or little consequense but to me that can have a major impact the difference in what I AM feeding vs what I THINK I am feeding.

If this is a joke to you by all means remove yourself & I will understand completely but I do feel there are people on this board that can & will learn from my theory.


Jen, I forget sometimes that not everyone knows me.. and you are correct you should not have to try to decipher when I'm being facetious. Of course I do not think this is a joke.. would I being doing this if I did? of course not.. no one would!

If you are seeing 50% difference in what you are feeding and what is being eaten.. please do us all a favor and start putting together a chart for us to use... It will of course need to have ranges.. as my gliders do eat all their collards, green beans etc.. Do you think you can do that?

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841715
09/21/09 12:51 AM
09/21/09 12:51 AM

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Originally Posted By: Trigger
I have to agree the USDA has steered us wrong a number of times(glad I wasn't running around on ALLI before they stated you may poop your self and stink all day) LOL

My questions on the ratios are actually much more simple that that. I simply want people to google the available and/or absorbable calcium or phosphorus of each thing before they take the USDA numbers for GOSPEL.

Really look at it ............ I am asking you to change nothing, to spend money to have nothing tested.
JUST look at the numbers for each food item & realize there IS a difference in what the USDA states & what YOUR glider consumes.
I don't want your studies, nor the credit for your work to figure out what your glider eats.
I ask for NO recognition, I only ask that you spend a few hours researching what your gliders really take in compared to the numbers that I presume are wrong.

I am litterally asking for only a few hours research on the AVAILABLE calcium or phosphorus your gliders REALLY take in.


Many of us that have been involved with diets have done that vary thing.. we know that when it's written that spinach is 14:1 (dont quote) that they are not receiving the 14cal... There are however ranges, guild lines etc... we simply can not go back to the beginning of time and have the USDA give us numbers of what is adsorbed.. because Jen it will be different with everyones bodies. They all do nit function the same nor process they same way. We need to have baselines and ranges.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841716
09/21/09 12:54 AM
09/21/09 12:54 AM

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Originally Posted By: Trigger
OBTW BLG my numbers are in my profile & if you would like to discuss this further call me.


I think that is a GREAT idea... and I'll call ya tomorrow if thats ok!

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841718
09/21/09 01:02 AM
09/21/09 01:02 AM

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People keep referring to the USDA. United States Department of Agriculture? Are you meaning the RDA tables for human Recommended Daily Allowances? This is pretty crude stuff for humans and not very exact - no built in consideration for various special needs - age, sex, co-morbid conditions, diet differences, health status, etc. They are moving to DRI (Dietary Reference Intake) with significant debate. I would say they don't have THE answer for humans yet despite literally billions of blood measurements. And this isn't so much noting the right diet or perfect diet or ratios of ingredients, but noting levels of nutrients that are thought to be enough if provided.

We used to have Calcium:phosphorus issues with Preemies years ago. We found 4:1 worked. There have been many studies to analyze human breast milk and copy the amounts of minerals, proteins, fats, vitamins and carbohydrates, but formula is still different. But the end points being measured weren't blood levels of calcium or phosphorus. Suppressing PTH (Parathyroid hormone), bone growth and adequate mineralization, rickets, tetany (babies version of HLP) and many other parameters were the endpoint measures.
There is also a major difference between the need to be exact when pouring IV fluids in as the only source of nourishment, and using the gut with oral feedings. This is more extreme than captive versus wild animals. Errors with IV only feedings leads to problems, but the gut fed individulas have a wide range of acceptable dietary levels because the body can selectively absorb and excrete to balance what is needed.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841724
09/21/09 01:22 AM
09/21/09 01:22 AM
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SugarBlossoms Offline
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Along with the daily recommended dosages, nothing is said about the food that was eaten while taking the supplements. If a person is eating "healthy", why the need for supplements in the first place? I was told they are not needed when a person is eating right and is basically healthy...yet we are trying to supplement our gliders...without knowing what they REALLY need in the first place.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #841726
09/21/09 01:28 AM
09/21/09 01:28 AM

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Quote:
Are you sure of what the differences are because in some of the very FEW foods I have researched that I feed regularly there can be a difference of OVER 50%.


and 50% of what? calcium mg? can you explain further? You mentioned earlier the vain of a collard... there is likely very little like and just guessing here...00000000004mg in a 1/8th of an inch of a collard green vain.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841728
09/21/09 01:54 AM
09/21/09 01:54 AM

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Following this thread I haven't been able to ascertain what are the goals expected through glider blood drawing. I've seen comments about comparing diets, but others wrote that it is not a diet study. Some indicated normal values are being sought, although others noted they exist in literature. The link to the article Kris posted titled "GliderPaper" was interesting, but the ranges listed were very wide for many metabolites. This thread seemed to begin with interest in calcium levels.

The question was asked "why the resistance?" IMHO twofold. 1) Glider risk and stress from invasive sticking with or without anasthesia, and
2) No hope of finding anything useful
(Not to mention expense)

Calcium metabolism is very complicated. A good mental model is the house thermastat. If you set the dial on 73 degrees and the house cools to 72, the furnace comes on. At 74 it goes off. You might like 73, and your neighbor 76. Open a window or build a fire and the system will stop heating or work overtime to keep at 73. Calcium levels are that way regardless of day-to-day diet.

Someone above asked an interesting question. The general idea was: "What would happen if you feed a diet one day with no calcium, and another day a diet with 10 times the calcium?" Absolutely nothing. The body will maintain calcium levels at its set point. On a diet-deficient day, the bone stores will be used to keep blood levels up. On a diet high in calcium, less will be absorbed and more excreted to maintain levels. Much like your house thermostat. A horrible diet over a long time will eventually show symptoms. My best guess is that most of the diets being used are not truely that rotten. Most likey many of them provide enough of what is needed to stay out of trouble. In relative terms, our pizza-eating and McDonald's gobbling society is far worse off.

Also interesting that the Sugar Glider normals listed in Merck were remarkable similar to human levels. Also of note, the local veterinarians bring their blood samples to our Hospital and run them on the same analyzers we use for humans.

Although blood sugar can zoom up and down with diet changes, that doesn't happen with very many other metabolites. Certainly not calcium. The PTH and Calcitonin won't let it vary that much.

I'm still looking for a good reason to do this bloodwork study. Even one. Then there is the issue that will arise as to what one hopes to do with this "information" to change anything and know that you are making the situation better.

Somebody earlier noted that the first glider to wake got the corn, and the last got the carrots. That was our experience. It is a pointless game for me to count out ratios and have the furbutts do that. I quit worrying long ago and trust mother nature.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841740
09/21/09 02:32 AM
09/21/09 02:32 AM
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