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Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849295
10/07/09 03:11 PM
10/07/09 03:11 PM

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lovely1inred
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lovely1inred
Unregistered
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Of course the mills are inbreeding indicriminately...my point is simply that they DO have gliders to sell...so even out of these awful, horrible, makes you want to throw up it's so bad conditions, there are survivors. So somehow these gliders have managed to live on and produce offspring. Mills won't keep a bad gene around. Doesn't make business sense to them. The sickly, the biters, they are destroyed, no questions, no conscience.

What glider breeders are doing now is working, producing happy healthy gliders. Why go through all this purifying the lines, when at any point genetic mutations can occur and completely wreck an entire line then? Mutations are normal occurences in any animal species, leu is a phenotype expression of one mutation, but there can be multiple mutations in one animal. I mean I have attached earlobes, my second toe is longer than my "big" toe, and my eyes are hazel, and my blood is o+...each one of those attributes is different genes at work, in some cases several sets of genes, and they are only the attributes that can be seen or tested. How I metabolize sugars and fats and proteins cannot be seen but are genes at work all the same and further depend on my environment, habits, and what I eat.

The only way to know if leu to leu is a sound pairing is to do it, with more than one pair, and see what happens with the offspring. sounds to me like that's been done already with the foundation lines since there weren't other leu's to pair with and I'd hazard that the leu to leu no-no rule came into play shortly after with the shift in glider breeding ideology into breeding out instead of line breeding. Now you can get leu's and leu hets far enough apart to be unrelated whereas before that wasn't possible.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849319
10/07/09 03:57 PM
10/07/09 03:57 PM

P
peace
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Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Of course the mills are inbreeding indicriminately...my point is simply that they DO have gliders to sell...so even out of these awful, horrible, makes you want to throw up it's so bad conditions, there are survivors. So somehow these gliders have managed to live on and produce offspring. Mills won't keep a bad gene around. Doesn't make business sense to them. The sickly, the biters, they are destroyed, no questions, no conscience.

What glider breeders are doing now is working, producing happy healthy gliders. Why go through all this purifying the lines, when at any point genetic mutations can occur and completely wreck an entire line then? Mutations are normal occurences in any animal species, leu is a phenotype expression of one mutation, but there can be multiple mutations in one animal. I mean I have attached earlobes, my second toe is longer than my "big" toe, and my eyes are hazel, and my blood is o+...each one of those attributes is different genes at work, in some cases several sets of genes, and they are only the attributes that can be seen or tested. How I metabolize sugars and fats and proteins cannot be seen but are genes at work all the same and further depend on my environment, habits, and what I eat.

The only way to know if leu to leu is a sound pairing is to do it, with more than one pair, and see what happens with the offspring. Sounds to me like that's been done already with the foundation lines since there weren't other leu's to pair with and I'd hazard that the leu to leu no-no rule came into play shortly after with the shift in glider breeding ideology into breeding out instead of line breeding. Now you can get leu's and leu hets far enough apart to be unrelated whereas before that wasn't possible.


The lines are NOT bred out far enough yet. Most millbreeders are making money on supplie not the sugar gliders. They do not care about health as long as it is breathing when a person buys it the cage and food suplies.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849322
10/07/09 04:02 PM
10/07/09 04:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
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kitsune  Offline OP
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Springfield/Eugene, OR
GliderFun, I have wondered if the rule of no leu to leu was related to the breeders (who used to only sell 66% hets and above only to other USDA licensed breeders) worrying it may drop out the leu market. I don't really think that's as much of a problem anymore, it's already dropped out, leus go for about as much as a 66% leu het used to cost. Even as much as white faces used to cost. Back then, there was also a good reason for this rule, because when there were still only a few generations established from the line founders themselves, and those line founders were still breeding, if a leu was bred to another leu it would have been a terrible pairing. The highest allowed in most cases was a 50% het or a 100% that came from a leu and a grey. It just seems to me like if these are the reasons for why leu to leu pairings are frowned upon, it's time to stop making up stories about horribly sickly joeys that came from two leus breeding.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849337
10/07/09 05:00 PM
10/07/09 05:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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NY
Back then there was a reason for not breeding leu to leu. Lines were not far enough apart. But that was a while ago.

Now with the bad economy the price for leus dropped to as low as $700.00 each but when I first learned about gliders about 2-3 years ago, Leu prices were really high. I bought one of my first leus back in december 2008 for around $1500.00 and the price range for leus were $1300.00-$1800.00 not too long before that.

If leu to leu breeding would have happened on a regular basis (with gliders who were 5+ generations apart), the price of leus would have dropped long before the economy killed the prices this year.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849338
10/07/09 05:02 PM
10/07/09 05:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,713
GA
Sabarika Offline
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Sabarika  Offline
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GA
I don't have any experience with genetics but I do want to add a thought.. I understand it is a lot of cost to raise and own many gliders but there must be someone out there who has the time/space/dedication to perhaps try isolating a pair and line breed and keep the offspring--I mean people manage to find room for "just a few more" when they fall in love with a newly OOP joey someone is offering so why should they claim they don't have the time/space for breeding gliders they already own and keeping the family when they can find space/time for a new joey they bought from someone else? I understand there is no profit from this experiment but it appears to be in the gliders best interest to try and isolate these possible defects and weed them out NOW, even if it DOES take a few breeders setting aside one or two extra cages to keep a family and its' offspring. I only mention this because I believe it was a comment made earlier in the thread where "who will have the time/space/money? not many" was made, or something along those lines. I think if this is an important enough issue there WILL be enough time/money/space/etc to do it, seeing as it could possibly help out our current generations of gliders. I myself have always wondered about genetic disorders in gliders---gliders can live as long as 15 or 20 years, but we purchase them at 8 weeks old and often breed them soon after their first birthday--we don't let them "live" long enough to SEE many of these diseases until they have had MANY many offspring and by that time those offspring have likely produced and their offspring have and so forth..so we might not see a problem until it is several generations in and we have 20 or so gliders from that one parent who are possibly affected with a life threatening disorder that we didn't know about simply because it never showed up as young as 1-5 years.


Sabarika
Photography
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Sabarika] #849342
10/07/09 05:10 PM
10/07/09 05:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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NY
Thanks for that add on!! I totally agree with you!

It almost seems like:

Breeding for $$

Not Breeding to purify lines (properly) and not for the good of the glider.

*shrug*

For many, money has to be a big reason for breeding. Why have 100 cages of gliders and produce different colors that are het for everything if money isn't a factor?

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Sabarika] #849345
10/07/09 05:19 PM
10/07/09 05:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
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Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Sabarika
I understand it is a lot of cost to raise and own many gliders but there must be someone out there who has the time/space/dedication to perhaps try isolating a pair and line breed and keep the offspring.


I've actually spent 3 years now doing exactly this. I have a trio of 50% hets that are the culmination of years of work, just praying to see white in 6-8 weeks when the 3 joeys show themselves. I chose the best leu lines I could find. I started with a leu female out of a 25% het and a 50% het, both parents out of a non-leu line and a het; bred her to a normal, and a het from them to a normal. Then I found a 100% het male from equally amazing lines, and bred him to a normal. There is NO leu to het, or 100% het to 100% het in these lines for 7 generations.

From both lines, I have here 16 gliders, plus 3 more IP.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #849346
10/07/09 05:23 PM
10/07/09 05:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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NY
are you line breeding/inbreeding to see if they are carrying any hidden undesirable genes?

Good job on the hard work!!

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849350
10/07/09 05:53 PM
10/07/09 05:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
Thanks for that add on!! I totally agree with you!

It almost seems like:

Breeding for $$

Not Breeding to purify lines (properly) and not for the good of the glider.

*shrug*

For many, money has to be a big reason for breeding. Why have 100 cages of gliders and produce different colors that are het for everything if money isn't a factor?



I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. There are MANY breeders who are working hard to help clean up the lines and breed gliders that will help other breeders to do the same.

I know of one member here(Leyna) who has the most meticulous breeding program EVER! She breeds out almost all her gliders and the few het pairs she has are low percentages.

Of all my pairs I only have ONE pair of leu hets together and that pair is my husband's. All my other leus and hets are being bred out. The other pair of hets I have together(not yet, but hopefully soon) to produce color are an albino het male and 2 66% cremino het girls. So, even though they MIGHT throw color, they are completely unrelated.

Unfortunately, due to various circumstances, I had to separate 2 of my pairs this year. Both pairs threw leus. When I separated them I COULD have put the gliders with other leu hets to get more leus. However, I chose to breed them out instead. The 2 boys have perfect leu lineage(literally, there is NO crossing of the leu lines in their lineages) so I'm hoping that their joeys will be able to help other breeders to improve their leu breeding programs.

There are MANY other breeders out there doing the same thing. We could choose to pair our leus/hets with other hets and get $1500 joeys. However, instead, we're breeding out our gliders and getting a tops of maybe $400 for a 100% het. For the 50% hets their price is pretty much the same as a classic gray.

So, please, don't judge ALL breeders based on what SOME breeders do.

BTW, on a different note, even if you were able to breed a "pure" glider using the inbreeding method(which, imo, sounds horrible! Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that to poor gliders?!). What then?... you'd have to eventually breed those joeys with "fresh blood" and that would "dirty" the line all over again. The whole concept just seems really ridiculous and, if I might add, cruel. It makes me nauseous to think about the ACCIDENTALLY inbred gliders, I can't ever imagine someone wanting to do that on PURPOSE! cry


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849360
10/07/09 06:30 PM
10/07/09 06:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Judie  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
off_topic I do hope a Mod comes along. It seems we have this Topic... in two forums now. Breeding and Babies and Fact or Fiction.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849364
10/07/09 06:47 PM
10/07/09 06:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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NY
I didn't say all breeders were like this. A generality like that would be ignorant.

And line breeding/inbreeding is a common method to purify lines, or so i hear.

Maybe you'll have a few gliders who will have problems but in the long run, it will save us from having EVERY BABY with multiple diseases in 20 years... Right?

Tell me if I have this all butt backwards because when i was reading it and thinking about it, it makes perfect sense. :-)

Try to leave your feelings at the door for this and think logically, piratically, and think about the future of gliders in captivity.

If you purify the lines (leu lines, mosaic lines, gray lines, white face lines etc) you will be SURE there is no genetic issue lingering in the recessives. You will have many pure lines of gliders to work with.

Once each line is purified you will be able to out cross with the other lines. IE Leu with white face, Leu with gray
WITHOUT worrying about muddying up the lines with unknown HIDDEN genetics because every line has been purified.


Think of it this way.

Since we have NO IDEA what hidden recessive genes our gliders possess for health problems right now we can end up with damaging all the future babies in 20 years at the rate we're going.


From what I've been reading, by out crossing UNPURE lines what we're doing is taking one animal (SAY THIS IS MOTHER A) who may have a recessive gene for one disease (say kidney problems)

breeding it with another animal (SAY THIS IS FATHER A) who may have a recessive for 2 or 3 other bad genes (say liver problems, heart problems, and lung problems).

What does that make the babies. A MESS!

The babies now might have the recessive for 4 bad genes (Kidney problems, lung problems, heart problems, and liver problems).

Lets call that baby BABY A (make baby A a 50% leu het)

Now we take BABY A and breed it with another glider of UNKNOWN genetic background (and i'm not talking about color genetic background which is the only genetic background we have currently on our gliders).

Say the glider we breed with BABY A we call BABY B (standard gray glider)

BABY B has been out crossed the same way and actually had the same recessive genetic problems as BABY A BUT we didn't know this!

the babies from BABY A AND BABY B come out of pouch severely deformed, they have under developed lungs, under developed hearts, etc and they die.

NOW we know that BABY A and BABY B might be carrying something bad in their recessive genetics.

BUT THERE IS ONE MAJOR PROBLEM!!! IT'S TOO LATE

BABY A'S parents have had 25 joeys by the time this is found out. And those joeys have had 4 joeys each. breeders are wondering why the babies have been coming out small and early. They're wondering why the mother or father is eating the babies.

BABY B'S parents have also had 25 joeys by the time this is found out. And those joeys had 4 joeys each.

Now we have 200 gliders who carry the genetics for severe genetic problems and will be spreading these problems to they babies they have. It will be introduced into other peoples lines, other color's lines.

It's surfacing left and right and babies are dying left and right.

NOW WHAT DO WE DO?

BABY A AND BABY B'S grandparents were also carriers of the poor genetics, so were their great grand parents.

Who knows how many gliders now carry the genetics for severe health problems.....


By inbreeding, eliminating these hidden recessive genes, and line breeding We create pure lines. Once these pure lines are created, we can start outcrossing with other PURE LINES.




Does THAT make sense to anyone??? LOL :-)

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849436
10/07/09 10:05 PM
10/07/09 10:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
after reading thru all of this, i still dont see the
need to inbreed/line breed to weed out any genetic defects.
it seems to me that this has been done already by the
older breeders and i have yet to hear of any deformed
gliders from this forum.
there are alot of old gliders around that used to breed
and it seems to me that if there were major problems
they would of shown by now.
does anybody that breeds have any babies that are deformed,
sickly, etc.

regards,
nancy glazar


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: hwh4ev] #849445
10/07/09 10:30 PM
10/07/09 10:30 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
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gliderma Offline
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Michigan
Not so far, but I am new to breeding compared to most everyone here. I do have a leu male with a WFB female who just had twin male WFB's 100%leu hets and a leu female with a WF male that also had twins, male & female that are WF 100% leu hets. They are newly oop, but look to be good & healthy with no known or obvious defects. I did not put the leu's together because I was under the impression that it would be a bad thing to do.


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: gliderma] #849469
10/07/09 11:32 PM
10/07/09 11:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
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SugaWhit  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
I can honestly see where GliderFun is coming from, my answer to this problem is not to breed out, but to test.

I really think that the best way, without harming or breeding any more gliders, to figure out what we have both color and health wise is to establish a genetic "norm" (say standard healthy grey glider) and go from there.

Leu, Mosaic, (a pattern I mentally think of as tobiano/overo as I am a horse person) and creamino (again, in my head, buckskin. Hilarious no?)

We already do necropsies, the extra step of sending off dna material to be examined isn't far fetched. We do it in horses all the time.
Liver, eye, and kidney issues, I don't know if we could ever isolate to a strong degree without some very obvious gene abnormality, and a bunch more money.

But color and linkage of genes via expression of them I think is very viable, and would give you a much better chance of knowing Far more then what inbreeding would do.

I have a Leu paired with a 100% het. As they are well bred out, I personally have no problem with it. I can however, concede that further out crossing are needed far more then bringing the lines in, and am currently working to that end on my Creamino/het pairs future crossings.

I want to see a place where we can genetically test for who's parent is who's, and what glider carries which gene, expressed or not, as coming from a medical background, things like the 50% het I have in my siggy kinda make my head hurt.
The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.

I would much rather it be like in horses, and we can track the animals parentage not by what the breeder thinks, or remembers, but by fact. Same with color-

My problem is no one is interested in Really doing all the homework, as the time/money/gliders needed is magnicifient.

And as we don't Have a real central registery like the horse folks do, there isn't a group of people floating around with money and time and the animals best interest in mind to go to a college or a development lab and get the ball rolling. That would be a huge boon to all glider folks!

/end rant.


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849479
10/07/09 11:48 PM
10/07/09 11:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
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kitsune  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
hwh4ev--There *have* been genetic problems that have surfaced. You just wouldn't know it because most of the people involved try to keep a lid on it. I have one of those gliders, and he is VERY inbred, from popular lines. There *are* bad genes floating around in the genetics of our pedigreed gliders, which is why you must be so careful when you choose two to breed. The glider I have has no leu lineage, he is from only white faced lines.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849482
10/07/09 11:59 PM
10/07/09 11:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.


The % were put in there to show what CHANCE there was of the glider carrying the gene. Once proven, it becomes a 100% het. No, they were NOT put there to make money or track lines. (I do not breed for leu or albino but found that a bit offensive) Having the % does nothing to show the lineage of the glider, only the family tree does. And with out the %, a breeder could charge the same for ALL hets regardless of the chance they actually carry the gene.

Say they sell Hets for $1000. If the glider is a 100% Het, that might be a good deal but if it is only a 25%, not so much. The breeders would make a great deal more money if they just sold any Hets for $1000 instead of adjusting the price DOWN for the lesser hets.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849485
10/08/09 12:10 AM
10/08/09 12:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: SugaWhit

The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.

That's just not true. Percentages are often used in genetics, and have nothing to do with money or, in fact, with tracking the lines.

It is to indicate the percent likelihood of the glider carrying the trait. It is very simple genetics to figure out, although, like you, it confuses me. However, it has nothing to do with making money!

Edit: Sorry, Dancing. We must have been writing at the same time. What I meant was "Yeah! What she said!"

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 10/08/09 12:18 AM. Reason: dancing

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: hwh4ev] #849489
10/08/09 12:17 AM
10/08/09 12:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
i have yet to hear of any deformed
gliders from this forum. there are alot of old gliders around that used to breed and it seems to me that if there were major problems they would of shown by now.
does anybody that breeds have any babies that are deformed, sickly, etc.

regards,
nancy glazar


Nancy - I've had inbred classic grays with problems from being inbred. It shows up regularly frequently - I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

There is an entire line of mosaics that are sterile because of inbreeding.

There are examples that come up all the time. In the more exotic colors, the genetic problems are either hushed up, or they are written off as being some other kind of sickness, not genetic.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ValkyrieMome] #849490
10/08/09 12:19 AM
10/08/09 12:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
The percentages tell you specifically what chance a joey has of carrying a certain gene. If you have two 100% leu hets together, one in four of their joeys will be leu, the other 3 will be grey. Two of these joeys will carry the leu gene and one, statistically, will not. The only way to express that possibility is with percentages--and without percentages to help us keep track of who is more likely to carry a gene, the leucistic and other recessive color variant lineages may not have even survived due to all of the inbreeding that would be required if % hets were disregarded.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849499
10/08/09 12:49 AM
10/08/09 12:49 AM
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80 acres of paradise in KS
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Quote:
If you have two 100% leu hets together, one in four of their joeys will be leu, the other 3 will be grey. Two of these joeys will carry the leu gene and one, statistically, will not.


even that isn't always accurate. Shelle's two 100% hets had
twins, one leu, one het (or potential het).
twins, one leu, one het(or potential het).
twins, both hets(or potential hets).

But over all, the averages are right.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849504
10/08/09 12:57 AM
10/08/09 12:57 AM
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NY
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Originally Posted By: kitsune
hwh4ev--There *have* been genetic problems that have surfaced. You just wouldn't know it because most of the people involved try to keep a lid on it. I have one of those gliders, and he is VERY inbred, from popular lines. There *are* bad genes floating around in the genetics of our pedigreed gliders, which is why you must be so careful when you choose two to breed. The glider I have has no leu lineage, he is from only white faced lines.



This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!






Say your white face is the 7th generation of glider from that line. That means every other glider in that line could have the genetic problems he does whether it's in recessive form or being shown. And that means every glider baby produced from that line may carry that genetic problem and every baby they produce can carry that problem and so on until it's spread everywhere, like a virus!

If we were to have exposed these genetic problems at the BEGINNING of the line through inbreeding and bred it out before out crossing, you would NOT have a little white face glider who has genetic problems right now. You would have a healthy, happy, glider with pure lines.

If there are tests we can do then GREAT, we should be doing it to find out what is really in our gliders lines. If not, we should find a way (like the inbreeding/line breeding method) before we spread the poor genes to every glider out there




I want to make an example and I mean no harm and don't mean to insult anyone but maybe it will help everyone understand my point since this is a known problem.



AIDS... It's a disease that spreads from one person to the next through sex or blood/etc... we all know that... Say condoms and birth control doesn't exist.. Pretend that tests for AIDS doesn't exist either


Say this is the country of Italy in 1940's


Say a guy has AIDS (doesn't know it) and has sex with a girl.. Their child may have the aids virus now. The next person the man sleeps with has a baby and that baby has it too.


Then those kids have kids, and those kids have kids. And they all have the aids virus. None of them knows it until 70 years later, when science develops a test for aids. then they find out, their family members have been dying and have been sick because of this virus they've been passing to everyone.


BUT it didnt just spread through Italy... The family members have traveled to different countries and have had sex with people in those countries and had babies there too.

Now, 70 years later (aids was said to have actually started in the 1940's), what started in "Italy" is now in EVERY country affecting 33 Million people (real number).


Lets say, back in 1940's the first few people who had the aids virus (and didnt know it) was told to kill their first born child because that was the only way to find out if the aids virus was being passed on. If they did that it would be beneficial to the human race as a whole.

If that was truly the case and they would have done it, how many lives would they have saved today? MILLIONS

They probably would have told whoever suggested to kill their kids that they are insane and "get out of my house, I love my kid"


Luckily there are routine tests for aids!


That's kind of the same thing as far as inbreeding. Yes, it will hurt gliders in the present but how many gliders would we save from genetic disorders, pain, suffering, etc in the future by doing this now?


If there are genetic tests then we should be doing them with each line to find out bad traits our gliders are carrying. We should eliminate them or we could pay the price later on



My stories are getting stranger and stranger as the night is wearing on. I should probably sleep huh? lol

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849506
10/08/09 01:11 AM
10/08/09 01:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
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Jupiter, Florida
Okay, I'm guessing I was not clear enough-
I understand Why we do percentages. Perfectly really, I promise!
when I say 'track the lines' I mean the chances of the resessive gene.
It Is about money- you can't tell me that a low het isn't (or wasn't things are different now) More expensive then a standard grey glider. I can see the point that they Could charge more for any and all- but almost All of you merrily skipped right over my main point.

Why fuss around with percentages when you could test for things like other breeds do?!? It's almost barbaric to me to say 50% het, it boggles me honestly.

I don't know of any other animal species that goes into such crazy detail based on genetic percentages taught to middleschoolers like we do.

Why not work on genetic testing for issues instead of not Really talking about genetic illnesses an animal may or may not have?

The idea that


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849509
10/08/09 01:19 AM
10/08/09 01:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
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SugaWhit  Offline
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Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
(continuing from above, yay iPhone!)
The idea that more money is paid for the Chance, even if high, that a glider has the gene is what is so silly to me, even though i play the game as well.

I just feel it would be a Much better idea for us to try and isolate the faulty genes that are causing issues (that no one wants to share, grrrr) as well as the color genes.

That way, that leu that might also be a wfb/mosaic will be known for what it really is- same with that 66% leu het, or in my case a 50% creamino het- wink

Even better would be to be able to look back and Trace any problems. We know where the mosaic sterility lines start, what if we could do the same for other diseases? Know that 'blah blah' came from this one glider-?! That would be Wonderful, and help clean up the lines-

Or imagin you were told you had a certian animal from a popular line- now you can be Sure- etc. Like I said, not sure how we Dont have this yet, but I'm pushing for it, and am happy to help-

That way, we could answer the question about Leu to Leu, and not just speculate.


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849510
10/08/09 01:19 AM
10/08/09 01:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Ok, providing I could find a lab/vet willing to check the dna on a glider to tell if it carries the leu gene, how many are willing to PAY the cost for that testing in addition to the cost of the glider? I'm betting not many. Most would rather have the percents and make their decisions based on chance.

I know that before, a low percent leu het was only margianally more than a grey.

I remember...
Leus were $2000-2200
100% hets were $1500
66% hets were $1000
50% hets were about $500-700
25% hets were about $300
and lower than that were MAYBE $50 more than the cost of a grey IF charged any extra at all.

And out of those, MANY of the "12% hets" proved out.

(Oh and about this time, the first Creamino was put up for sale at the grand cost of $10,000!)


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Dancing] #849512
10/08/09 01:30 AM
10/08/09 01:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
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Youngstown, Ohio
You're basically talking about putting a 8-10 week old joey under anesthetic, dangerous in itself, and drawing blood, just so you can know if you're buying a het or not. IMO? THAT is barbaric. Not to mention the many, many gliders that would have to be subjected to extensive testing to have a basis to compare to begin with.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #849514
10/08/09 01:39 AM
10/08/09 01:39 AM
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NY
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I haven't had a glider neutered yet, but what is the general age... 3 months?

They're then put under to do the procedure. Why not take blood then.. It would force breeders to hold babies longer if that's what they wanted (to ensure they're actually a carrier) OR it will cost the new owner.

but forget about color... that's unimportant. What about genes that are lined to diseases, heart failure, obesity, liver failure, kidney failure, and the list goes on.

Is there a way to test for these genes with blood tests?

Color should be a secondary thing... the health of the gliders, now shouldn't that be more important then what color gene they're carrying?????

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849524
10/08/09 02:21 AM
10/08/09 02:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
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Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!


Yes...I know this all too well. The breeder didn't find it a sound enough reason to retire anyone or warn those with gliders that had similar lineage. 4 offspring from this pairing, 3 had the same condition. One male two females; one grey two white faces; the one healthy offspring was a grey female. Unfortunately, his lineage is more like a family stick than a family tree.

So...inbreeding is not such a good idea, and this is one reason I'm sensitive about that topic...but where the lines are today, there are many leu het pairings being made that are quite satisfactorily distant in relation; the same can be done with a leu to leu pairing, UNLESS hypothetically there is some defective gene attached to the leu gene that only is expressed when two leus are bred...but there has been no indication thus far that this is the case. There wasn't any hesitation when people paired mosaics together. Why leucistics? Because it's recessive?

Last edited by kitsune; 10/08/09 02:27 AM.

Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849525
10/08/09 02:26 AM
10/08/09 02:26 AM

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Gucciburger
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"Family Stick"

Haha that got me laughing!
Now back to the serious conversation...

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849528
10/08/09 02:41 AM
10/08/09 02:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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It only takes one mosaic to reproduce the coloring. Who has two mosaics together? Or are you talking about the early lines that were inbred that led to the sterile line? Back then, it wasn't known that you only needed one mosaic parent. (not that I'm excusing the inbreeding that was done)

And males aren't neutered until 4-6 months oop (and/or a certain weight) and those that want joeys, usually want them younger than that.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849529
10/08/09 02:49 AM
10/08/09 02:49 AM
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NY
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GliderFun Offline
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NY
Originally Posted By: kitsune
Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!


Yes...I know this all too well. The breeder didn't find it a sound enough reason to retire anyone or warn those with gliders that had similar lineage. 4 offspring from this pairing, 3 had the same condition. One male two females; one grey two white faces; the one healthy offspring was a grey female. Unfortunately, his lineage is more like a family stick than a family tree.

So...inbreeding is not such a good idea, and this is one reason I'm sensitive about that topic...but where the lines are today, there are many leu het pairings being made that are quite satisfactorily distant in relation; the same can be done with a leu to leu pairing, UNLESS hypothetically there is some defective gene attached to the leu gene that only is expressed when two leus are bred...but there has been no indication thus far that this is the case. There wasn't any hesitation when people paired mosaics together. Why leucistics? Because it's recessive?



I understand that the experience you had did make you wary of inbreeding and line breeding but you can't let that BAD BAD breeder put a bad taste in your mouth.

Inbreeding/line breeding is a very powerful tool that will help a breeder find the best and worst in their lines. UNFORTUNATELY the breeder you got your glider from didn't know how to properly use this method and sold gliders that should have NEVER EVER been sold and bred gliders that should have NEVER EVER been bred.

If it's done properly, it will BENEFIT gliders in the long run. If people do it like the breeder you got your baby from did, the glider population will be in big trouble.


Again, they did the inbreeding, displayed the bad traits, but did not eliminate them!

They skipped the final step!

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