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Breeding Rejected Joeys #891820
01/11/10 02:22 PM
01/11/10 02:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
This is a topic I've brought up once before, but it quickly turned into a debate/discussion on breeding sterile line gliders. I have a few main questions:

1. When or is it ever okay to breed a glider that was rejected as a joey?

2. Is the new owner *always* made aware that the joey they are adopting was rejected? Is a new owner *always* made aware that a joey they are adopting has a parent that was rejected?

3. Is it noted anywhere (like the lineage) that the glider was rejected?

4. Have we seen any proof or pattern that would show a trend of rejected joeys producing offspring that is anything but healthy? I want vet references here...not just opinion. Telling me the glider is healthy is not the same as a vet telling you the glider is healthy. wink

I'm bringing this up because of my personal belief that many joeys that are rejected are rejected for a reason and should not be bred. I was looking through some lineages and it got me thinking...how much rejection is in any one glider's history? Is there a way to know without contacting the owners of every glider in a lineage? How many breeders have rejected joeys in their program? What is the average lifespan of a rejected joey? Do they live to full potential or have we noticed a trend of complications or health issues?

I have very, very limited experience with rejected joeys. I'm just trying to stretch my mind. The way I look at it, if a pair of gliders rejects multiple babies, I always see suggestions to retire the parents. There isn't a whole lot of talk about how to handle the joey(s) once it's old enough to find a new home or breed.

I would love to hear some opinions. There is no right or wrong answer so, let's keep things friendly.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: StitchsMom] #891825
01/11/10 02:30 PM
01/11/10 02:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict
SugareeErin  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
I agree with you that rejected joeys should not be bred. I have supplemented several joeys and adopted them out as pet only, I always tell the owners and note if they were handraised on my website when they are available for adoption. I feel since their growth and development is often stunted it could be difficult for them to breed and there could be issues. A rejected joey removed from its parents misses out on learning alot from mom and may not know what to do with a joey as well. I typically put "Pet only" in their lineage, but I think that noting if a glider was handraised/rejected in the lineage is an excellent idea!



:leu: Sugaree Gliders :rtmo:


Simba, Nala, Rain, Snow & Sugaree

Shadowdancer, Sugar Magnolia, Sunshine Daydream, Winter, Twinkle, Twilight, Everlette, Sparkle, Polar Bear, Indigo & Willow








Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: SugareeErin] #891836
01/11/10 03:01 PM
01/11/10 03:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
I don't think rejected joeys should be bred either. You never know for sure why that joey was rejected and if it has any hidden health issues or what developmental issues may be present due to not having mom's milk. (and the antibodies they get from it).

Of the three rejected joeys I've had here, one stayed with me (we were just to attached to each other to let him go) and the other two were sisters that went to a pet only home and their owner knows they were rejected and hand raised.

Even if the cause of the rejection is known, such as mom getting a pouch infection, there is just still no way to know if hand raising them causes any other issues.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: Dancing] #891865
01/11/10 03:39 PM
01/11/10 03:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
People *do* breed rejected joeys.

I think it is an individual choice.

Personally, I think there are REAL problems in "glider land." We can get all stirred up over things that aren't that big a deal in the big picture - and then loose focus on the things that ARE important. People breed rescues. I think that's a HUGE concern. Whether or not someone breeds rejected joeys is not.

But that's my opinion.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: ValkyrieMome] #891873
01/11/10 03:56 PM
01/11/10 03:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
I mostly wanted to have a thread for reference for anyone who may find themselves with a rejected joey or are considering adopting one. While it's an understood rule that we should not breed rescues or gliders with no/poor lineage, I could only find one post regarding breeding rejected joeys and it was mine.

You all have valid points and I tend to agree. Alden, I completely understand what you mean. I don't think it's a huge concern, but I would like to know more about it. Again, I was just trying to gather information on this topic as I could find very little out there.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: StitchsMom] #891884
01/11/10 04:09 PM
01/11/10 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I know someone who bred a rejected joey and caught all kinds of grief for it.

However, it was not an irresponsible decision on her part. She weighed the pros and cons carefully, and she had clear information on why the joey had been rejected.

There is a great deal of armchair quarterbacking sometimes, second guessing people's decisions on such things. When all the facts really are not known, because no one but the owner was there. If it is a breeder I trust and respect, I tend to trust and respect that person's decisions on breeding their own gliders. Somethings are black and white absolutes. Some things just AREN'T!

If it isn't a breeder I trust and respect, I don't really care WHAT they claim about the gliders they breed! I guess that is a rule of thumb for me - or rather a guideline, not a rule. If someone has shown themselves to be educated and educable, willing to put the gliders' needs above monetary concerns, shown that they know *their* gliders ... I usually have respect for the decisions they make. When someone has repeatedly demonstrated an unwillingness to continue their education, seems to put themselves above the need to learn, makes decisions based on "all gliders" not *their* gliders - I tend to be cautious.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: ValkyrieMome] #891895
01/11/10 04:34 PM
01/11/10 04:34 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
G
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis
gliderma  Offline
Serious Glideritis
G

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
Personally, I would not breed a rejected joey. We never really know why they are rejected and why introduce unknown developmental or genetic problems? I have Mshki who was rejected at 2 weeks oop and then his brother died the next day. They both were seen by the vet along with Mom and appeared to be fine except for Mshki being severely dehydrated. I thought I caught Mom & Dad when they were getting "in the mood" but not soon enough. They had twins oop on Christmas Day, only to pass away on New Years! Not because I didn't try to save them, but obviuosly something is not right and this Mom is not Mommy material. She will not be having anymore joeys and Mshki will be neutered and with me forever! It's not worth the risk when too much is unkown, in my opinion.


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: gliderma] #892137
01/12/10 07:56 AM
01/12/10 07:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I will probably be lambasted, not in public, but in private and on other boards for the following. Keep in mind that the scenarios I am about to delineate are what started my entire campaign on getting the information to the world about accurate sexual maturity and breeding information.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Before I knew any better, I allowed Mareki to breed. Now, there were multiple errors in that decision. 1) She was a rejected, hand raised joey whose rejected twin had died. 2) She was the result of accidental inbreeding. [Everything I had read said that gliders did not reach sexual maturity until 1-2 years old. I had a brother (Pepe) and sister (DaisyMae) housed together. When Pepe was just 8 months oop and Daisy was just 5 months oop I caught them mating. Mareki was the result. Keep in mind this all happened when the only resource I had was outdated books].
So, I bred Mareki (an inbred, rejected joey) and although she became impregnated 4 times, only one joey survived out of 7 (all of whom were rejected) - Allira. Allira was handfed by me but was actually raised by Pepe and Bittah (his mate after I separated him from Daisy).
To further compound my errors, when Allira was about a year old, I placed her with Gizmo. Gizmo came to me as a rehomed glider at 2 years old - lineage unknown, purchased from a pet store by the original owner. They mated and Allira became impregnated several times - six times, to be exact. Every time, the joeys never even made it out of pouch. They were all aborted at the 3-4 week in pouch stage except the last litter, which was aborted about a week before due to come out of pouch. It was at that point that I had Gizmo neutered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So... after relating all of that history... was it the fact that Mareki had been handraised that caused her to reject her own joeys and subsequently caused her daughter to abort her own joeys? OR was it the fact that Mareki had been the result of inbreeding which may have caused unknown internal defects which were then passed along to her daughter? I will never know for sure, but my experience taught me several things, of which one of them is: I will NEVER condone breeding rejected/handraised joeys shakehead In MY opinion, the risks should not be taken.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of the five joeys that I successfully handfed (1) or handraised (4), three had been rejected by their mothers and two were handraised because their mother had a pouch infection. Two of them I kept - Mareki and Allira - and I still have them. Three of them were adopted out within my local area to pet-only homes. The adopters were well aware of their handraised status because they met their joeys while they were being handraised. I think that is the only responsible thing for a breeder to do - let the new owners know that the joey was handraised and the reason why, whether due to rejection or due to mother illness/injury.


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: sugarglidersuz] #892201
01/12/10 01:33 PM
01/12/10 01:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
we all learn by our mistakes and the mistakes of others.
most people would correct the situation those that dont
should not breed anything at all.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: hwh4ev] #892209
01/12/10 02:02 PM
01/12/10 02:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Thank you so much for your input, everyone. Suz, that is exactly the type of info I was looking for. I've always been curious about the occurrence of rejected joeys and whether or not genetic abnormalities can be tracked down a lineage because of them...hence my questions about making sure people know the history of rejection.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: StitchsMom] #892471
01/13/10 03:53 AM
01/13/10 03:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
I need to add to my earlier post here:
As time went on, we discovered that Mareki DOES have genetic abnormalities. She has hypothyroidism and is a self-mutilator (which we believe is linked to the hypothyroidism, although we know that stress is a contributing factor) frown She will be on medication for the rest of her life. She was diagnosed in Sept. 2007 (although the thyroid deficiency was suspected about a year previous to that). Mareki came oop on Feb. 14, 2003, so she is now almost 7 years old.


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: sugarglidersuz] #892486
01/13/10 07:45 AM
01/13/10 07:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave
ScootersPet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
Though I do not breed any longer, I would not breed a rejected joey. I would worry that it would carry down from the rejected parent and the joeys would suffer from it. I know it has been done before (breeding rejected) but it is all about personal choice.

But..your talking to a girl who informs people who are interested in adopting my rejected boys older sisters that the mother cannibalized 3 before them, raised them and another female successfully (though she and her mate had to be separated due to aggression) and rejected her last.

If I were buying a glider for the purpose of breeding, I would want to know all the details before I commit to the purchase.

All personal choice though..




Re: Breeding Rejected Joeys [Re: ScootersPet] #892488
01/13/10 07:51 AM
01/13/10 07:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
Kudos to you for giving the breeding history of the parents to those interested in adopting your joeys clap


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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