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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009738
09/26/10 06:36 PM
09/26/10 06:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Tianna - working on that right now - I'll be back with it.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009741
09/26/10 06:38 PM
09/26/10 06:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Awesome!

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009743
09/26/10 06:40 PM
09/26/10 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Alden, I agree with you. Money is the root of all evil. Back when I really started getting into breeding, I was told to pair certain gliders, and come to find out later (when I really knew what COI's were and had done my homework) the COI's were too high. Money......sheesh.

I hope that this has taught everyone a lesson. If there's a problem, it needs to be brought out as soon as possible. I understand that this was supposed to have been talked about before, but it must have been just between a few people and a LONG time ago.


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009747
09/26/10 06:46 PM
09/26/10 06:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Quote:
there are A LOT of glider affected


There are NOT "a lot" of gliders FROM THE FRODO LINE that are effected with this gene. There are 8 total and all of those are from 3 pairs. All 3 of which were SEVERELY inbred.

There ARE, however, MULTIPLE other cases of joeys having this issue that are NOT from the Frodo line. Adri's, for one, and from what Beth has told me there are quite a few gliders over in Oregon who have this problem as well. The reason it's a problem in Oregon is because the breeders there are careless with their breedings, don't keep lineages, and also won't pay to bring in "new blood" from out of state. Thus resulting in severe inbreeding which, in turn, results in lots of "wiggle babies".

The fact that we've had 3 (INBRED) pairs of gliders produce wiggle babies and that they all have Frodo in their ancestry honestly doesn't say much against the Frodo line, imo. Not so much these days, but when I first joined up in on GC high-generation WFs were all the rage. It was all about who could get the highest-gen baby so they could have "super WFs" or really light WFs. I even saw SEVEN GENERATION WFs that were shown off with pride, even though to get that high of a generation some seriously messed up breedings had to take place.

Well, with that being said, think about ALLLLLL those gliders from the WF lines that were linebred and inbred to get all the thousands of WFs that exist today. Yet, somehow, we've only had THREE pairings resulting in "wiggle babies". Wouldn't you so that those odds are actually pretty darn low?! And WHY?....it's because it's not about WHICH gliders is being bred, it's about HOW the glider is being bred and TO WHOM.

If you breed a supposed "wiggle het" to a glider that's unrelated then you will NOT get a wiggle baby. We already know that for a fact.

Heck, even if you breed a wiggle het to a POSSIBLE wiggle het(50%) your odds of getting a wiggle baby are STILL slim to none, so long as the pairing isn't being INBRED.

Poppins, Gil's dad, should, SUPPOSEDLY, be a 100% wiggle het(according to your theory, Alden). He's paired with China Doll, a SUPPOSEDLY 50% wiggle het. However, ya know what?...they haven't had ANY wiggle babies! The reason is because it's NOT about being "hets", it's about INBREEDING.

There has NEVER, EVER, EVER been a recorded instance of a wiggle baby being produced by a pair that was not grossly inbred.

Quote:
FRODO is the original carrier.


We have no proof of that. We can only assume it. Also, if your theory were correct, then that'd mean that ANY glider with Frodo ANYWHERE in the lines shouldn't be bred. Because, after all, it's already been passed on 8 generations, so who are you to say that "12.5% or less" is safe or not. Cause 8 generations would be a 0.78% het...

This whole post is causing mass panic over something that the only way to really, truelly do anything about it, based on the theory you're posting, would be to take ALLLLLLLL of Frodo's ancestors out of breeding. Well, actually, you'd have to take all of CEREAL'S ancestors out of breeding because Frodo is from Cereal and so he could have passed the gene on to Frodo, right?...

See where I'm going?

Quote:
It is said that this is a result ONLY of inbreeding. However - why then would it skip 7 generations and then show up again?


ALL gliders(and other types of animals, and humans...) are "hets" for genetic defects. ANY glider, if inbred, will produce babies with genetic defects at some point in time. Maybe not the first generation, but if you keep inbreeding you WILL get bad results. Be it a "wiggle baby", or a polydactyl, or a short-tailed glider, or a stub-nosed glider, or a joey that dies for some unknown reason, or one that is killed before even coming OOP.... The fact of the matter is that no matter WHAT glider you inbreed, you will still always get problems that pop up.

That being said, if you inbred some gliders and get messed up babies, then it's your own fault. It's not the grandparents' fault or even the parents fault. It's simply the result of 2 gliders who have the same genetic issue in their DNA and when they're bred together their genes line up just right to where a baby with that otherwise-dormant gene will occur.

Since when do we judge entire LINES of gliders based on someone's "oopsy" inbreeding? This is certainly not the first time that gliders have been inbred and it's resulted in joeys with problems and it won't be the last.

We should take this as a lesson to be more careful in our pairings, but not as a reason to have mass panic and demand that any gliders in a line should have to be neutered because they MIGHT have something wrong because of an ancestor that's many generations back.

Summary: unless you are INBREEDING your gliders, there is NO reason to fear having a wiggle baby. The ONLY times this gene has occurred is when gliders were SEVERELY inbred. The Frodo line has been bred, line-bred, and inbred so much that for it only to have occurred 3 times BECAUSE OF INBREEDING is NOT something to panic about. Since when has it ever been considered "abnormal" for an inbred baby to have genetic issues? It's expected, because it's INBRED. It's not something to completely spaz about and start panic throughout the glider community.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009749
09/26/10 06:46 PM
09/26/10 06:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Okay, now that I've posted that, let me approach the situation of why MY gliders are on that list of you supposed "100% wiggle hets"...

To start, Gilthanas has NEVER produced a wiggle baby, nor have any of his joeys aside from Smidgin(who, mind you, was rejected by his mother as soon as he came OOP). Precious, his daughter, has also never produced a wiggle baby and the only joey of hers that did was Kitty(who was also handraised).

Smidgin and Kitty were hand-raised together and have always been together and will never be separated. I NEVER intended to breed this pair and had I been able, he would have gotten neutered as soon as he was big enough. HOWEVER...anyone who managed to scrape by through this last year knows just how hard times are and how little money there is to be made. :\ Well, add that on top of THOUSANDS of dollars I had in vet bills over the last year, plus my husband having to move out-of-state just to get a job because there was NOTHING avialable here, and me not being able to get a job until just a couple months ago. Oh, and don't forget the lovely heating bills that stack up when it's winter in Ohio and you have no money...

Anyways, that being said, it's been hard and I knew I wouldn't be able to get Smidgin neutered before Kitty was old enough to breed, which left me with one of the hardest decisions I've had to make with my gliders: should I keep them together and risk them having a joey or should I split up a pair of joeys that were hand-raised together and have NEVER been alone or with other gliders(aside from the very, very beginning of their OOP lives)?

It was a really hard choice to make, but I looked around at all the other gliders that had been inbred much worse then these 2 would be(they are uncle and niece) and I didn't see those pairs throwing messed up babies, so I figured it wasn't too high of a risk. Boy was I wrong...

Well, come June 27, the beautiful, sweet, amazing, and, yes, "wiggly" Shimmer came OOP. At first I thought she was just a squirmy little baby, but by a couple weeks old I knew something was wrong. frown I showed a video of her to Beth and Beth recognized it right away: she had the wiggle gene. cry

Around the time all of this was happening I got an unexpected payment from a friend for a joey she'd bought on a payment plan, but had been able to go ahead and pay him off at once. I was SO happy because I knew I'd finally be able to get Smidgin(and some of my other boys) neutered and he and Kitty wouldn't have any more joeys. Well...we all know how life goes: NEVER according to plan! My vet is the only local vet that I trusted to do the neuter and she was out of town at the time, of course. :\ I called the day she was scheduled to be back and I excitedly asked to schedule Smidgin for a neuter. I waited for them to check the scheduled and was told that they couldn't get him in for a MONTH! Between my vet having gone on vacation and it being kitten/puppy season, they were fully booked. cry

Unfortunately, before I could work out a back-up plan it was too late, they'd already mated again. frown Thus resulting in the "mysterious" joeys that Alden is referring to as having just come OOP 2 weeks ago.

Smidgin is neutered now and there will be NO MORE JOEYS from them. Shimmer is staying with them and the boy from the 2 new joeys will also be neutered when he's big enough because I've worked things out now with the vet I USED to go to(2 1/2 hours away) so that I can trust him again. He didn't use pain meds on my other glider I got neutered with him and the poor boy chewed himself open on the drive him, so I didn't dare use the vet again. However, I've spoken with the director of meds there and she's spoken to the vet and worked things out. In fact, I just got 6 of my boys neutered there last week! laugh

The point of this ridiculously long post is that I didn't want people jumping to conclusions(which they already have done) and assuming that the pairs that have produced "wiggle babies" are continuing to be bred.

My "wiggle babies" were a result of inbreeding and I do not feel that the GRANDFATHER should have to be neutered just because his grandbabies are inbred and, thus, have issues.

I'd feel the same about any of my gliders, not just him. I pride myself on my good breeding pairs and will not retire a perfectly healthy breeding pair just because I was an idiot and 2 of their offspring inbreed and that inbreeding resulted in a baby with issues. It's to be expected with inbreeding! That's why it's illegal for people to marry their cousins! tounge

Now, if this had occurred in a pair that was NOT inbred(example: Lil Dude and Athena, whose joeys have a COI of 4% and Athena's from the Frodo line as well), then I wouldn't hesitate for even a split second to neuter any and all gliders I have that are related to them. However, I will NOT make a decision like that based on an inbred joey. All of my past and current(soon-to-be) customers are fully aware of the situation surrounding Smidgin and Kitty's joeys. I've never once lied about it because I honestly don't feel like it's even a problem unless someone plans on inbreeding them(in which case, they wouldn't be getting a baby from me! lol).

Take all this as you like, but as someone who's dealt with this first-hand and spent many, many, many countless hours on the phone and emailing other breeders and talking with people about it, I feel like I've made the right decision in regards to my gliders. I encourage you all to do the same and do what YOU feel is right for YOUR gliders. Alden, if you want to neuter every glider you have from the Frodo line, including Emi(who is only 4 generations out from him), then go for it and kudos to you! Although, I've got to admit, I'll certainly miss seeing her beautiful babies. frown


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009755
09/26/10 06:57 PM
09/26/10 06:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Wow I have to say that that is one of the most negligent things ive heard in a long time Nicole, wow just wow. Glad they are neutered now. Thanks for sharing this information though it was very important for us to know.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1009760
09/26/10 07:09 PM
09/26/10 07:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Ya know, Tianna, I agree with you 1000%! I've beat myself up over this so many times that it's not worth continuing to do so. I know what I did was stupid and hind-site is always 20-20, right?

What's done is done and I(and others) are able to learn from the experience.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009763
09/26/10 07:12 PM
09/26/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Agreed Nicole, its a shame, but whats done is done - and your owning up for it. Cant ask for more.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009765
09/26/10 07:15 PM
09/26/10 07:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Nicole I want to thank you for posting and coming out of anonymity. I'm sure it took a lot from you, knowing how hard you have judged others and how you pride yourself in perfect breedings.

Now that this is out I hope it makes it more clear for people to understand that while this is real it is not reason to panic. Which is exactly what I have been trying to say but it has been deflected by unfounded "truths".


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009772
09/26/10 07:27 PM
09/26/10 07:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
DavidW Offline
Glider Lover
DavidW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.


Alden - Then why try and relay something you don't have complete access too and knowledge of?
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Last edited by DavidW; 09/26/10 07:28 PM. Reason: spelling

:rbridge: Eva 10-5-2009 & Nicodemus 11-15-2009

Glide free guys I miss you and will be with you again someday

I make glider safe wheels www.mygliderwheelsandmore.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009773
09/26/10 07:29 PM
09/26/10 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Excuse me for repeating myself. I'm certain that many people actually take the time to READ what someone else writes, and don't in turn manipulate their words.

But, for those who have something to loose here, for those who conspired together to block this from becoming general knowledge, I'm afraid I have to repeat myself one more time.

DO NOT PANIC!

No one needs to break up pairs!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009775
09/26/10 07:32 PM
09/26/10 07:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Alden I didnt see anything specifically related to you in her post and didnt know any comments were directed towards you tell you said something. Lets just tone this down because I really would prefer to not have this giant thread locked and removed by GC because we are getting testy - seriously, there is a LOT of important information just shared that many people need to read so everyone just chillax.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: DavidW] #1009776
09/26/10 07:32 PM
09/26/10 07:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: DavidW
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.


Alden - Then why try and relay something you don't have complete access too and knowledge of?
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


Because the people who DO have access to this information were determined to keep it from becoming general knowledge. Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down. ONE breeder even tried to black mail a community member in order to keep this information from becoming public. Why? Money.

I do not believe that our glider community is "too stupid" to understand responsible breeding. I do not believe that people are better off being "saved" from bad information. I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical. And, I could not stay quiet and watch that happen.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009778
09/26/10 07:36 PM
09/26/10 07:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Adri, just to clarify, I never asked to remain "anonymous". What I asked was for my videos to be removed because they were stolen from my Photobucket account without my permission.

Also, if you ask around to people who know me you'll know that I wanted to post about this issue myself, but never did because I worried that it would cause mass panic in the glider community about Frodo. I knew it would cause people to freak out and neuter/separate gliders over an issue that has never popped up except with inbreeding. I thought that it was something that should be approached carefully and sensitively so as not to cause panic.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009780
09/26/10 07:46 PM
09/26/10 07:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
DavidW Offline
Glider Lover
DavidW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
Posting half of one side can be just as bad though. Especially if the information is not completely accurate. This should be looked into much further before people start making drastic decisions. The information is out there find it!

I do agree to the point of that someone producing these babies should take action against it hipping again.

But until sufficient information is available to pinpoint 100 percent what/who (gene or glider) is causing this why scare a bunch of people by saying for example this glider is a problem when it has produced no joeys the exhibit the problem?

just my two cents!!


:rbridge: Eva 10-5-2009 & Nicodemus 11-15-2009

Glide free guys I miss you and will be with you again someday

I make glider safe wheels www.mygliderwheelsandmore.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Guerita135] #1009782
09/26/10 07:51 PM
09/26/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
I for one want to say:

Nicole, I am very proud of you for coming out here and explaining what happened and HOW it happened. It took a lot and it really does show that over time you have matured and are willing to own up to things, and for that, I respect you as I know it wasnt easy to do.

Quote:
Because the people who DO have access to this information were determined to keep it from becoming general knowledge. Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down. ONE breeder even tried to black mail a community member in order to keep this information from becoming public. Why? Money.


Sorry Alden, but with all the stories you have told in the past, unless you can provide names of these so called people INSIDE our community now that are *black mailing* others or people come out and speak for themselves, maybe you should not be speaking for others.

As for this *wiggle gene* I first heard about it a week or two ago but to me it was called the *bobble head syndrome*

With all the gliders I have bred here, and yes, some do have Frodo back in the lineage, I have NEVER (Thank God) had a *wiggle baby* nor have any of the offspring that I have sold...

So until someone can answer ALL the questions that Val asked above, this to me is just something to be aware of, but I wont be going out and neutering any of my males, because I havent seen the proof that this is indeed a genetic issue.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009783
09/26/10 07:51 PM
09/26/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Nicole, thank you for coming and explaining all this. I have been worried sick half the day over it! I am so sorry for what you have gone through with your glider kids. We ALL make mistakes, we are not perfect. ((((HUGS))))


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009784
09/26/10 07:51 PM
09/26/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,417
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,417
Wisconsin
I have read this post a couple time now. If this is a true genetic problem and not just a result of inbreeding, it sounds more like both parents have to carry the gene to have an affected joey.

It would be along the lines of lethal white in Paints.

Out of 4 breedings, according to genetics, one would result in an affected animal, two would result in carriers and one would have clean genetics and not be able to pass it on.

The only way to tell if you have carriers is to have genetic testing done. There is no breeding it out, but you can quit getting affected individuals by not breeding two carriers together or breeding an affected individual to anything.

Unfortunately in Paints the affected animal is either born dead or dies shortly after death as it also affects the organs in the horses body.

I agree with Val on this and maybe someday glider breeders will have an association with the ability to have genetic studies done on afflictions like this.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009785
09/26/10 07:51 PM
09/26/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009787
09/26/10 07:55 PM
09/26/10 07:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
I have to say David, im still glad Alden posted. I had no idea, nor did many others. And as a future breeder yourself you should be happy she posted too.

The thing is a lot genetic disorders etc can be contributed to other things blah-blah-blah but its IMPORTANT to know. Knowledge will advance us all, ignorance isnt bliss in these situations.

So lets keep compiling facts, proof, evidence, and really try to make sure we stay UTD on all this because IT IS IMPORTANT! And I dont care how much was given in the initial post I guarantee like Nicole said anything of this sort comming out would have caused people to freak out. Dont pretend otherwise.

We need more breeders like Nicole to come out with the truth of how their joeys have this - at least she was honest and brave enough to come forward to say - yep this is real, but this is why it happened in my gliders. Then at least we dont have to assume or guess.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009788
09/26/10 07:57 PM
09/26/10 07:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I'm sorry, Peggy - per GC rules, and per my agreement with KarenE, I'm not allowed to provide names.

Now that at least some of the people are coming out and speaking about this openly for themselves, perhaps the other details will be allowed to emerge as well.

I can only hope!

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Sorry Alden, but with all the stories you have told in the past,

I'd personally appreciate it if you'd discontinue trying to convince people that I'm a liar. You are making personal comments about me, when I've made none here about anyone. I have answered you in every instance where you have ever accused me of lying. However, you continue to pretend otherwise. It has no place on this thread.

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 09/26/10 08:02 PM.

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009789
09/26/10 07:58 PM
09/26/10 07:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict
krysKritters  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
I have owned gliders for many years and I am also a breeder...
While there are some that are still my "elders" in both years of experience and knowledge, I still try to keep up when it comes to the lineages and what not....

I am glad this has posted publically. Yes, some may panic but there will also be some who worry more than others. That is not a good enough reason to not inform the rest of us.
How else would I ( and everyone else) learn if it wasn't for those with more information thatn I posting it for me to read?

Thank you.


Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009790
09/26/10 08:00 PM
09/26/10 08:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Alden, no one has conspired. Those of us who are ACTUALLY INVOLVED, FIRST-HAND with this have been discussing what to about it and how best to approach the glider community with the information we've learned.

However, since all the information we have is from INBRED pairs, there's not alot we can go on because with inbreeding it's tricky since inbreeding naturally causes genetic problems to occur. Problem that normally would never be an issue.

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical.


I'm just going just respond to that with a quote from something you posted and even went so far as to BOLD

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009791
09/26/10 08:00 PM
09/26/10 08:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
DavidW Offline
Glider Lover
DavidW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!


Well until all the questions that Val asked are answered I don't believe that an informed decision can be realistically made.


:rbridge: Eva 10-5-2009 & Nicodemus 11-15-2009

Glide free guys I miss you and will be with you again someday

I make glider safe wheels www.mygliderwheelsandmore.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009794
09/26/10 08:02 PM
09/26/10 08:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Alden there are only two breeders who have produced these joeys one is Sheila and she has faced the music on this subject long ago and made a public apology to the community on another board, the other has just posted and that is Nicole, she has also apologized for her doings. So where is this conspiracy you speak of? This is not the case at hand...people need to know how and why this may or may not affect them and their gliders.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Guerita135] #1009795
09/26/10 08:05 PM
09/26/10 08:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Alden, no one has conspired. Those of us who are ACTUALLY INVOLVED, FIRST-HAND with this have been discussing what to about it and how best to approach the glider community with the information we've learned.

You've been discussing it for SEVEN years? And in the meantime, more joeys have been born with this syndrome? I'm sorry I didn't feel it was ethical to sit by and continue to watch you discuss it.

Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I do not believe that continuing to breed a glider KNOWN to carry this disorder - simply because he is an expensive glider - is moral or ethical.


I'm just going just respond to that with a quote from something you posted and even went so far as to BOLD

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
PLEASE do not turn this thread into finger pointing and name calling and breeder bashing. There is NO USE pointing fingers now.




I think you will see that I did not point a finger at you, nor call you a name, nor bash you. However, now that YOU have pointed out that YOU are the breeder who refuses to neuter a known carrier, I hope you will reconsider.

I'm now done with this. It served the purpose for which it was intended. People are now aware. Additionally, the breeders who have known all along about this are now publicly known, and people can make their own judgments and decisions about how to proceed with their respective breeding programs.

An issue which has been mentioned and "hushed up" on more than one occasion is now general knowledge. The breeders who know the most about it are also public knowledge. I have acted here to only fill in information gaps because others would not speak. Now they are all (but for one) speaking - I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 09/26/10 08:12 PM.

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009796
09/26/10 08:06 PM
09/26/10 08:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
David - you can use the information you have RIGHT NOW to make better decisions than at Noon yesterday. By Alden posting this we now know there is some sort of issue - and you can make the educated decision to talk to someone who knows more, you can be aware of how you pair etc. That is how we can make informed decisions.

Refused Alden - past tense, she has since neutered and is keeping all the joeys produced that have the issue.

Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/26/10 08:08 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009797
09/26/10 08:09 PM
09/26/10 08:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
EDITED:
People need to be nicer to actually have this thread be about the facts and not accusations against breeders. Try to keep it civil!


BE NICE!

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/28/10 03:36 AM. Reason: nicer

Nadine

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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1009798
09/26/10 08:13 PM
09/26/10 08:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
DavidW Offline
Glider Lover
DavidW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
I have to say David, im still glad Alden posted. I had no idea, nor did many others. And as a future breeder yourself you should be happy she posted too.

The thing is a lot genetic disorders etc can be contributed to other things blah-blah-blah but its IMPORTANT to know. Knowledge will advance us all, ignorance isnt bliss in these situations.

So lets keep compiling facts, proof, evidence, and really try to make sure we stay UTD on all this because IT IS IMPORTANT! And I dont care how much was given in the initial post I guarantee like Nicole said anything of this sort comming out would have caused people to freak out. Dont pretend otherwise.

We need more breeders like Nicole to come out with the truth of how their joeys have this - at least she was honest and brave enough to come forward to say - yep this is real, but this is why it happened in my gliders. Then at least we dont have to assume or guess.


Ok here's the points I want to make. Nothing personal Just..

What good is the information when it is flawed or missing key components?

All I ask is do more research and get the facts straight before posting things like this!

If the information was 100% accurate I would be internally great full.


:rbridge: Eva 10-5-2009 & Nicodemus 11-15-2009

Glide free guys I miss you and will be with you again someday

I make glider safe wheels www.mygliderwheelsandmore.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009799
09/26/10 08:14 PM
09/26/10 08:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Every time the information has started to become public, a certain group of breeders has shot it down.


Really?...Cause if I remember correctly you started this thread with a link that leads to a thread where I was trying to inform the public about this problem.

I don't see how that's "a certain group of breeders" shooting it down. In fact, it looks to me like I was trying to help inform people about it in such a way that didn't cause mass panic. But, maybe I'm wrong, I mean, after-all, I'm only the person who posted it... dunno


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
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