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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009800
09/26/10 08:15 PM
09/26/10 08:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Nadine, erm... not sure if your reading all the posts here Alden is getting kicked in the teeth here JUST as much as shes kicking back. So your biased opinion isnt needed.

Nicole are you neutering Gil or just putting him with another glider? I was under the assumption from your post that you were neutering all males involved in the issue, especially since you feel so badly about what has happened.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009801
09/26/10 08:19 PM
09/26/10 08:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
David - Thats were we have to agree to disagree I guess, I figure some information is better than no information, because frankly even if its all layed out all purdy for us - we still have the responsibility to use our minds and make decisions whether to heed information or not. So im just glad I have the ability now to go further and talk to people like Adri, Alden, Nicole, Shelia in private if I wanted to say hey ' I have a LOT of questions here, can you help me out?' And im sure one on one they would willingly help me figure this out further.

But thats just how I see things. We need TONS more information, this is a start.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1009802
09/26/10 08:21 PM
09/26/10 08:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Nicole does NOT need to neuter Gil, it's Gil's SON and Granddaughter than produced the wobble syndrome.

Smigen was the one who was neutered and was producing the wobble syndrome and he was neutered. The obligation of neutering other gliders is premature at this moment.

This is being found in more and more places, and NOT all are related to Frodo...

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/28/10 03:38 AM. Reason: removed personal

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009804
09/26/10 08:25 PM
09/26/10 08:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Nadine - - if you have anything personal to say to me, could you please say it in PM?

I would like this thread to remain open so others may ask their questions.

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 09/26/10 08:27 PM.

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009805
09/26/10 08:28 PM
09/26/10 08:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
No one said she needed to neuter anyone, its her choice as its anyones choice. I am asking if she was going to - because in her post about being remorseful it sure seemed like everyone involved was getting neutered and I cant be the only one who read it like that.

Direct inbreeding seems to be a big factor, but its possible its not. There is still risk involved that it could be otherwise. That is where the concern with neutering some of the main gliders involved comes from.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009806
09/26/10 08:28 PM
09/26/10 08:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
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Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Tianna there is no need to come to me privately as I am openly a genetic geek and will gladly engage in a intelligent discussion with anyone at anytime. As a matter of fact I invite you all to return to the issue at hand and to really discuss this further.


Beth and I discussed this issue for several hours and we both came to a screeching halt when it comes to her theory of it's recessive passage. Here is my take on this...IF Beth's theory would be correct and all these gliders were hets and the path of inheritance would be like that of a normal recessive gene then the occurrence of wiggle babies would be exceedingly high as these hets have been bred with with potential hets for several years. The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.

These are the direct result of inbreeding! The COI's of the joeys exceed 6% and in relation are first cousins.

I have yet to see a baby produced from the crossing of these lines in a responsible manner....you decide.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009807
09/26/10 08:30 PM
09/26/10 08:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Great post Adri.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009808
09/26/10 08:30 PM
09/26/10 08:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: DavidW
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
David- I am sorry that people have been scared! I have posted aproximately 5 times now that there is no reason to panic, no reason to separate pairs. I posted from the start that my intent was to get the information in the public eye so that people could discuss it.

I've also stated that I believe people are capable of making informed decisions - WHEN they have the information!

Now they do!


Well until all the questions that Val asked are answered I don't believe that an informed decision can be realistically made.


I'll get right on it! Sorry, I've been on the phone non-stop and can't multi-task very well, lol.

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I think you will see that I did not point a finger at you, nor call you a name, nor bash you. However, now that YOU have pointed out that YOU are the breeder who refuses to neuter a known carrier, I hope you will reconsider.

I'm now done with this. It served the purpose for which it was intended. People are now aware. Additionally, the breeders who have known all along about this are now publicly known, and people can make their own judgments and decisions about how to proceed with their respective breeding programs.

An issue which has been mentioned and "hushed up" on more than one occasion is now general knowledge. The breeders who know the most about it are also public knowledge. I have acted here to only fill in information gaps because others would not speak. Now they are all (but for one) speaking - I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.


First off, I already said I wasn't going to neuter my boy in the second thread I made. There was no need for you to be rude. If GIL HIMSELF had produced a wiggle baby then I'd most definitely neuter him, but as it is I see it only as a result of the inbreeding and not something that can definitively prove Gil as a "100% Wiggle Het", especially since we have no proof that there ARE hets since it was only brought out by inbreeding so far and genetic defects are NOT like the leu gene. They are something that ALL creatures have, no matter what. There ain't nothing you can do about it except to take care in how you pair your gliders and NOT inbreed. The only way to get rid of them completely would be to do what they do with lab mice: inbreed to 20+ generations to be able to fully cull out any and all possible hereditary genetic conditions.

So, unless someone plans to intentionally inbreed gliders just to find what lurks under the surface and then CONTINUE to inbreed the gliders to make sure it's really, truelly gone...then, well, there's really not much else that can be done aside form careful breeding and making sure that our customers are well-informed.

Personally, I think the glider community would benefit more from constant reminders about not inbreeding/line-breeding then from a thread that just names a bunch of gliders based on a THEORY that ends up making people panic.

Lastly, it's good to know your true intentions: to "out" people. I thought it was supposed to be about informing people about a possible genetic defect, but from what you're saying it was actually just to inform people about what breeders were "conspiring" against them. *rolls eyes*


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009809
09/26/10 08:31 PM
09/26/10 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I'm now done with this. I don't feel this thread needs my involvement any longer.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009810
09/26/10 08:32 PM
09/26/10 08:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Online /gc/lgc
Owner
KarenE  Online /Gc/Lgc
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Quote:
Drama Posts
We have repeatedly told the members of GliderCENTRAL we do not want any drama being brought and posted here. Well for the most part some have listened, and others haven't and that is getting out of hand. Failing to abide by our requests are a violation of rule 4. Yes we all know there is drama everywhere. GliderCENTRAL will not be the mid grounds for everyone to post about the drama no matter what it is or who is saying it. GliderCENTRAL is here for one reason and one reason only, to help the gliders and their owners and nothing more. Drama only takes away from gliders and their owners who need help. We have asked many times to leave the drama off, but it seems that some are just not listening. So now whats going to happen now? If you make a post about the drama, feed into the drama posts, instead of hitting the notify mod button so the post can be reviewed and removed, your account will be suspended for a period of time to be determined by the admins. We do not care what drama anyone is saying about anything, the bottom line is do not post about the drama here at GliderCENTRAL. This is not being done to keep people from talking, it is being done because we do not want drama here. We are sorry to have to do this, but we tried to ask nicely but that failed. KarenE even made a similar post earlier today stating. Drama posts WILL result in the loss of posting privileges for a time to be determined by Administration.


Quote:
Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.


This thread will be kept open as long as the rules are followed.

THIS WILL BE THE ONLY WARNING POSTED.

Some personal issues have been worked out. Others, I am not sure, but I will tell you up front, we will not tolerate Mod Notifications simply to tell on each other. If you cannot conduct yourselves in an adult manner, STAY OUT OF THE TOPIC.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom] #1009811
09/26/10 08:33 PM
09/26/10 08:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian
finnessa  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 847
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted?
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? How many show this "wiggle gene?"
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene?
* How long did this research take?
* Who conducted the research? What are their credentials?
* Was genetic mapping done? IF so, by whom? Where? Can we have more done?
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested?
* What sort of testing was conducted? What tests were run? What did they show?

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I have gliders who exhibit these exact same symptoms, but are not in this line. I kNOW the cause of their neurological issues. It is not genetic. So, with ALL of these gliders, were tests run to rule out toxins, malnutrition, parasites, bacterial infections, deformity, etc?

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines?

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? How do we know/conclude this? Where is this information?

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions?

* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this?

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line?

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such?

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?



I would also like to hear the answers to these questions. The claim of research done and not backed up is just wrong. If you want the "TRUTH" to be out there shouldn't this so called research be too?

Sorry Val for quoting your whole post but there is just to much importance in it to cut anything out!


Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: KarenE] #1009812
09/26/10 08:34 PM
09/26/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Online /gc/lgc
Owner
KarenE  Online /Gc/Lgc
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Some of you seemed to have missed that post above, so I am giving you the courtesy of posting it ONE FINAL TIME.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009813
09/26/10 08:38 PM
09/26/10 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
DavidW Offline
Glider Lover
DavidW  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 343
Katy, TX
Bravo Ness!!


:rbridge: Eva 10-5-2009 & Nicodemus 11-15-2009

Glide free guys I miss you and will be with you again someday

I make glider safe wheels www.mygliderwheelsandmore.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009814
09/26/10 08:41 PM
09/26/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
I feel the need to explain the significance of the COI.

That number is in relation to the POSSIBILITY of a genetic defect surfacing in your glider. If you look at a glider's COI explanation on the pedigree, it says what percentages are due to what gliders. So, a glider may have a 0.18% chance of having a defect from Frodo, that is a risk that is taken when breeding. The same goes for any other lines. I have heard of other isolated genetic anomolies due to inbreeding. That is why COIs differ. A glider with a 25% COI has a 1:4 chance of actually having a defect. Most animals AND humans carry different recessive defects, that is why we promote breeding out and being careful about lines. The risk is always there.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1009815
09/26/10 08:41 PM
09/26/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Nicole are you neutering Gil or just putting him with another glider? I was under the assumption from your post that you were neutering all males involved in the issue, especially since you feel so badly about what has happened.


I've neutered the male that produced a wiggle baby, which is Smidgin. I also neutered some of my other boys(for personal reasons, not because of the "wiggle gene"). I have not, however, neutered Gil. Nor will I be placing him with a different mate.

Why would I neuter Gil? He hasn't produced a wiggle baby. The only gliders that produced a wiggle baby was the inbred pair: Smidgin and Kitty.

We have no for-sure proof that this gene is even being passed from Frodo. It's only being ASSUMED because Frodo is the only common ancestor in all the lines. However, keep in mind that the WF lines are crossed with every other color out there AND they are the ones that have been inbred/line-bred the most because they're the most common of the "colored" gliders. So, honestly, it'd be hard to find an "oopsy" inbred pair(with lineage) that DIDN'T have WFs in the line! For all we know, it's a coincidence.

Also, there are alot of supposed "wiggle hets" that have been paired closely with other supposed "wiggle hets" and yet no wiggle babies have ever been born of those pairs. Why is that?

If the wiggle gene really is a het-type gene and is SO strong as to pass all the way down through 8 generations, then why isn't it strong enough to effect more "wiggle het" pairs? Why aren't their more wiggle babies out there?

Anyways, I'm not going to do what some people are doing and panic and make a rash decision(like neutering my amazing, loving boy) based on a HUNCH that gliders MIGHT be hets. Sorry, but I feel that more research needs to be done on the subject.

BTW, Gil has been paired with a Frodo-line glider before(Silvara) AND his offspring have been paired with frodo-line gliders and NEVER has there been problems with those joeys. So, until I know more, I'm not neutering him. I will, however, continue to keep all my customers full-informed just as I've been doing. I feel that they're grown up enough to make informed decisions on their own based upon the FACTS.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009817
09/26/10 08:52 PM
09/26/10 08:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, I just want to simplify things here to make sure I'm understanding.

The wiggle babies born were from inbred gliders. (Nicole's gliders and Beth's)

There are other gliders that display this behavior that are not related to the Frodo line. (Val has some?)

So my question is this. How in the world can the assumption be made that the Frodo line is tainted?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009821
09/26/10 09:02 PM
09/26/10 09:02 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



PLEASE!!! Let's keep this discussion civil.
Rosie's breeder and I have been communicating thru email and neither of us are angry with each other. She has been very forthcoming with information and willing to answer my questions. I just found about about this yesterday, so noone here can possibly be more shocked about all this than me. We need to handle this as mature adults rather than children, so let's not fuss and cause this thread to be locked.
If you care at all about gliders, let's do our best to keep this thread open so we can all learn about this issue that our gliders face.
There are bound to be more genetic issues in future generations so let's all decide now that we will handle this as adults. We need to set an example of how future issues like this should be handled.
We all have to decide for ourselves which gliders to breed and what risks we are willing to take. If we keep the information available to everyone, we will all be better able to make choices for our gliders and assess the risk we take when putting breeding pairs together.
I think it would be a great idea for the moderators to add a permanent factual unbiased message to the breeding forum so everyone has access to the information about the wiggle gene.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009822
09/26/10 09:02 PM
09/26/10 09:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Teresa, at this time there is concern with the Frodo line because the two pairs that account for the six joeys are all from that line. The parents themselves are not inbred but crossing them back to each other in the case of Nicoles gliders causes the joeys to be inbred.

My wiggle joey is out of a pair from that large rescue I took in several years ago, one of the females had him and his brother IP. Teresa I'm sure you remember "The Peter Pan Gang". Val does have gliders with similar symptoms as these wiggle babies, her gliders though are not due to inbreeding rather to nutritional issues and injury.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Guerita135] #1009825
09/26/10 09:09 PM
09/26/10 09:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian
cryingoutloud37  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
Honestly I would like to say at first I was kinda freaked out......THE videos are really sad frown But this post was a good thing....it brought something to light that not many breeders knew about! I thank everyone involved. I thank everyone for your honesty and your personal opinions. As long as a breeder if they choose to continue to breed their ( wiggle hets ) disclose the fact that their joey's may or may not carry the (wiggle het) I believe it is ok. The problem is not that their may or may not be wiggle hets. The problem is if people are unaware and not educated they could poor decisions when pairing up this line. I didn't know this genetic defect existed.... I have a 25% possible wiggle het paired with a really low possible wiggle het. I am unsure what to do at this point? dunno But I am happy to have the knowledge from this thread regardless! thumb


-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009826
09/26/10 09:09 PM
09/26/10 09:09 PM

K
Karen523
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Karen523
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Does anyone know if there are any reputable research labs that are currently, or have in the past, studied/researched gliders and glider genetics?

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009828
09/26/10 09:17 PM
09/26/10 09:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
at this time there is concern with the Frodo line because the two pairs that account for the six joeys are all from that line. The parents themselves are not inbred but crossing them back to each other in the case of Nicoles gliders causes the joeys to be inbred.


Ok...here's my point.

These gliders (the wiggles) were a result of close inbreeding. I believe that the fact they are from the Frodo line is a coincidence. I believe this could have just as easily happened with ANY inbred gliders regardless of their lineage. I don't believe there are "wiggle hets" but that the wiggle joeys were caused by close inbreeding.

We all discourage inbreeding because of the potential for genetic issues happening with the joeys. I know I've taken in rescues that were brother/sister pairs that had joeys ip when I got them. In most cases, the joeys were pulled before they came oop. One set of rescues I took in, with joeys ip, rejected the joeys and I lost one and hand raised the other. I don't know if the parents were related or not. Again, a reason we say not to breed rescues because we don't know if they are related and inbreeding can cause genetic defects.

I feel that at this time to state it "is the Frodo line" that has the defect is irresponsible and that is what has caused the panic. Frodo has MANY MANY (possibly in the hundredds) decendents and yet there are just 6 of these "wiggle" joeys from two inbred matings. I don't think it is as simple as crossing a Frodo line back to a Frodo line that caused this. I believe it is from CLOSE inbreeding (as in Nicole's, uncle/niece).

And Nicole is doing the responsible thing and NOT allowing these offspring (or the parents) to continue to breed. And if I remember right, Beth wanted the parents of her "wiggle" babies to be removed from breeding as well because of the close inbreeding.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom] #1009829
09/26/10 09:18 PM
09/26/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted? Ask Beth, she would know more about this then I would because she's trying to work with a woman in OR who's researching the issue due to it's prominence in OR's glider population.
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? None so far, that I know of. How many show this "wiggle gene?" 8 joeys total: 3 here, 3 at Beth's(1 passed away), Adri's, and 1 other that belongs to a breeder who asked me not to share the information(it was from a first-cousin pairing which only bred that one time and was immediately separated afterwards). There are also the joeys in Oregon, but you'd have to contact Beth for more info on them.
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene? We don't.
* How long did this research take? -
* Who conducted the research? - What are their credentials? -
* Was genetic mapping done? - IF so, by whom? - Where? - Can we have more done? -
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested? What do you mean?...
* What sort of testing was conducted? - What tests were run? - What did they show? -

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I've done fecal checks on all my gliders multiple times over the past year and nothing was out of the norm with my pair. My gliders are also in with all my others and I feel that if it were something environmental or bacterial then it'd be effecting more then just this one pair. I can't speak for the other breeders involved, but I do know that the breeder of Beth's joeys was having mold issues at the time. It was ruled out as the cause though because the pair was moved to a different location and still produced babies with the wiggle syndrome.

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines? Honestly, I'm starting to have my doubts that it originated from Frodo because of Adri's pair and all the gliders in OR having the issue as well. Also, considering the thousands of WFs out there and the fact that there are only 3 cases of it occurring in the WF lines and all 3 cases being inbreeding...It makes it impossible to have a for-sure decision about it.

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? Yes, there are, in OR and with Adri's pair(although, they have no lineage...) How do we know/conclude this? We can't conclude it until we know more. Where is this information? -

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions? I've considered this as well, which is why I feel it's not fair to for-sure point to Frodo because you have to realize that these are the only joeys like this that have occurred IN THE COMMUNITY and the majority of the breeders in the community breed colored lines and all of the colored lines have WF in them. So, it's possible that it's simply coincidental since the majority of the glider community's breeding pairs are from WF lines. And the fact that it hasn't occurred MORE often in the WF lines(even with all the crazy breedings some breeders have), it makes me want to do alot more research before coming to a definite conclusion.


* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this? Not sure. More research would need to be done to find out. Also, keep in mind that all the WF lines are likely related at some point in the past, so if doing research like this it might be best to consider the WF lines as a whole rather then as separate lines.

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line? We don't. All that we know FOR SURE is that it occurs with inbreeding. Perhaps it could even be something that gliders are simply genetically prone to as a sort of natural selection. There's a thousand different theories we could come up with and that would all seem somewhat sound, but the truth is that we know so little at this point and the only pairings we have to go by are compromised due to the inbreeding being a big factor(and possibly the ONLY factor).

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such? -

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?


I hope that helped at least a little bit, although I doubt it did because there's just so little known about it that there's not much info to give. :\

I don't know how much it will reveal or if it will reveal anything at all, but I'm planning on getting a blood panel done on the male joey when he gets neutered. I wanted to get one done on Smidgin, his dad, but had to replace my car's back tires and didn't have the money and I didn't want to waste a moment longer on neutering him for fear of them having more joeys. :\

Adri, you seem to know quite alot about genetics and it also seems that you might have in your mind a good way to start the research?... If so, could you recommend some good ways that we could find out more from these babies? Now that they're here and that they were brought into this world then, hopefully, we can learn more from them to help prevent any more babies from being produced.

Honestly though, I doubt that we'll be able to find out very much until autopsies are done when these little ones have passed. frown


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009830
09/26/10 09:18 PM
09/26/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Karen there has been no genetic testing or mapping done on gliders to date. I have contacted a genetics lab and I am awaiting information from them as to what this will entail, as a lot will go into this. Many of the major breeders have been willing to have their gliders used for this testing, including myself. I have no idea how many gliders of each line will be required nor do I know at this time what the cost will be. But it is in the works at least...I also want to add that this came up for the better understanding of our breeding lines and not directly related to the wiggle babies, but they will also be included in the test group IF this proves to something feasible in regards to cost and animals needed.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009833
09/26/10 09:22 PM
09/26/10 09:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
DNA testing on humans to determine paternity is about $300 per test.

The DNA maping on gliders, to do what really needs to be done to understand all this will cost tens of thousands of dollars. AND it may not tell us anything specific to the "wiggle" joeys defects other than they are inbred (and we already know that).


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009835
09/26/10 09:24 PM
09/26/10 09:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Adri  Offline
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Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Guys I have to step away for a little while as I have to tend to my kids and animals but I will be back shortly.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009836
09/26/10 09:25 PM
09/26/10 09:25 PM

K
Karen523
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Karen523
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K



Thanks Adri
please let me know of any developments in this. I may be willing to allow Rosie to be used in the testing as well, but it would depend on what it involves. I don't want Rosie to be a pincusion ;-)

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009847
09/26/10 09:57 PM
09/26/10 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Chris_R  Offline
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Dancing] #1009849
09/26/10 09:59 PM
09/26/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,417
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,417
Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Dancing
DNA testing on humans to determine paternity is about $300 per test.

The DNA maping on gliders, to do what really needs to be done to understand all this will cost tens of thousands of dollars. AND it may not tell us anything specific to the "wiggle" joeys defects other than they are inbred (and we already know that).


Sadly this is true. Organizations a big as the Quarter Horse and Paint Horse Associations have the funds available for genetic mapping and testing when horses start being born with afflictions that appear to come from specific blood lines.

It would be great to have the funds to do genetic research on gliders. It would open huge doors as far as coat pattern, colors, problems like the wiggle affliction and so much more.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Chris_R] #1009853
09/26/10 10:14 PM
09/26/10 10:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done


As far as I know, no. There ARE WFs in Oregon though, but I have no idea if the joeys are from those lines. I believe they're just grays that have been inbred badly. You'd have to contact Beth(Kitsune) to find out more.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009854
09/26/10 10:17 PM
09/26/10 10:17 PM

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Megs
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Megs
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M



Honestly, as a person who hangs out in chat on GG, it's hard to warn people the dangers of breeding without lineage when there's nothing PHYSICAL to show them the dangers/possibilities.

Trust me, we get a lot of people who come in asking about breeding, and don't listen to much of what we have to say about lineage, saying it really isn't THAT big of an issue.

It IS.

I had a gal that I rehomed two of my rescues to WITH the stipulation the male would be neutered when he was four weeks old.

This is a GREAT post that I've bookmarked. I've also bookmarked the videos.

There's no lineage on him, and she had NO lineage on her females, and now they're breeding. It's out of my hands, and I'm disgusted.
I will be emailing her the link to this thread and those videos as a VISUAL aid to my warnings.

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