Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Member Spotlight
Feather
Feather
Wisconsin
Posts: 13,470
Joined: January 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Last 10 Posts
Odd "whisker" on back
by 603gliderfolks. 12/11/19 10:39 AM
Maple syrup
by KarenE. 12/10/19 01:44 PM
Tika's poop test...
by Feather. 12/08/19 01:08 PM
1st post is a very sad one... Please help.
by 603gliderfolks. 12/07/19 10:52 AM
Diet questions from a newbie
by 603gliderfolks. 12/07/19 10:51 AM
Wild baby
by Feather. 12/04/19 05:53 PM
glider colony question.
by Feather. 12/03/19 06:38 PM
Wake up times and feeding habits....
by CKC44. 12/03/19 01:13 AM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Guerita135] #1011511
09/30/10 05:43 PM
09/30/10 05:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Guerita135

Originally Posted By: Adri
Sadly it would do nothing for our wiggle babies or the possibility of identifying the gene that causes this. We simply do not have enough of them to establish the genetic makers necessary to accomplish this task.


Actually, the test for CA was created for horses with just 20 test subjects. There are 8 wiggle babies and their 6 parents. That's 14 right there. It's a pretty good start.


I am only repeating what I was told by a "Geneticist" of over 40 years and who also heads the lab responsible for genetically mapping a multitude of animal species. I am not going by the findings of my own google searches.

Also isn't there really only 7 wiggle babies accessible and 4 possibly 5 of the parents? To my knowledge the whereabouts of Beatrice are unknown, is that not correct?

Also Nicole just as I don't agree with issue of Toxoplasmosis, I don't agree with your belief that what we are dealing with is CA. In everything I have read there is a progression of symptoms that occur up to 6 months of age. That is clearly not the case with our babies, it is evident almost immediately after they are oop that they have the disorder. Granted if you are seeing it for the first time you may not know right away what you are dealing with. With CA there are other symptoms there are also many other things that don't fit, for example an awkward wide-legged stance, body tremors, stiff or high-stepping gait, poor depth perception, and a general inability to determine space and distance. Having Hook here with me over the last two years I have not found any of the above mentioned symptoms to correspond with him other than the head movements. Please keep in mind that Hook is also blind so these symptoms would gravely affect him if they were present and that is just not the case.

Nicole trust me I want to know what my baby has, he is the inspiration behind so many of the things I do. It's just not that simple.

Last edited by Adri; 09/30/10 07:00 PM.

Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011512
09/30/10 05:43 PM
09/30/10 05:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Cora. Sorry, I missed your post. Please email. My email is guerita135@yahoo.com .


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011515
09/30/10 06:01 PM
09/30/10 06:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuyVA  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
If they have CA then the symptoms would continue to increase. With CH, they are born with the symptoms and it is nonprogressive. The only definative way to know if it is either would be to do a necropsy. The only gross abnormality is a decreased cerebellar mass(<10% of the total brain weight)

There is no effective treatment for this disorder(CA). With CH they can live a somewhat long life.

Just my 2 cents smile


Slave to:
My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri] #1011522
09/30/10 06:09 PM
09/30/10 06:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Adri, I didn't realize Hook is blind...

Are you sure that he has what Beth's gliders and mine have? Cause with Toxoplasmosis blindness is actually one of the possible symptoms(along with neurological issues and other things).

Do you have any videos of Hook that you could post?

Here's an article specifically about toxoplasmosis in Australian marsupials: http://www.wildlifehealth.org.au/AWHN_Admin/ManageWebsite%5CFactSheets%5CUploadedFiles/119/Toxoplasmosis%20of%20Australian%20Wildlife%2023%20Mar%202009%20(1.0).pdf

As for the other symptoms of CA...they're different, based on the type of animal. The symptoms in horses are a bit different then those of dogs. Also, since gliders walk differently then dogs and horses it would explain why we don't notice a big difference in how they walk. A "wide stance" wouldn't show in a glider because they walk with their legs spread out anyways. Depth perception can't really be determined with these little ones either because they don't jump and glide like other gliders do. At least, Shimmer sure doesn't...she likes to stay on the cage floor and chew on floor toys or climb up and weave herself through the baby links I hang in the cage. She doesn't, however, jump or glide because she's not coordinated enough to do so. The only time she's able to hold completely still is when she's totally focused on something, like when she's eating or nibbling on my fingers. Even then her head usually does a little bit of up and down shaking, like a person with Parkinson's.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri] #1011526
09/30/10 06:35 PM
09/30/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2,093
Port Aransas, TX
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave
Pockets  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2,093
Port Aransas, TX
Adri -

Professor Jenny Graves -
following links for the DVM's

Pro Jenny Graves
Anu Pro Jenny Graves


:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org.au/
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011527
09/30/10 06:35 PM
09/30/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Nicole, Hooks blindness is not straight up...see that was the first thing I noticed in him. His eyes started to open but stopped half way, the rest of his lids are fused. So his third eyelid is partially up and he has from what my vet and I have been able to determine extremely limited vision, maybe only shadows. Hook is also sterile, there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that he is the product of continuous inbreeding.

I will post a video shortly...keep in mind he is the most severe case I have seen to date.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011528
09/30/10 06:38 PM
09/30/10 06:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Alden, Nicole had agreed to starting with bloodwork at no cost to her, and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet. Nicole did say she would be interested in continuing if we raised the money for a Cat Scan.

After contacting Beth, she also said she felt a Cat Scan would need to be done. Or MRI, I can't keep remember.

I was contacted to help and donate, I initially said no because... these things rarely run smoothly and I always seem to get kicked in the teeth for helping. LOL. But then I said IF Beth, Adri, and Nicole could all agree, would be will to work with a/any vet/multiple vets, just a vet, then I would donate and assist in raising money so none of them would have to be responsible for the costs. As a breeder, and I am sure other breeders agree, I think this is a global problem and I wanted to help.

However, we never got that far, bloodwork is no longer needed because Nicole doesn't think it is. She didn't want to take advise of Dr. Tristan because she no longer thinks it is needed.

Then find another vet, any vet, ask them their opinion.

I also read a lot about toxoplasmosis, CA, CH, dogs, horses, etc. And and I do understand a lot of medical terms and I can't even begin to guess what it is or isn't.

And exam by a experienced vet is what is needed.

I have a lot of joeys from the Frodo line at my home, or have had them born to my home. I have never had any neurological symptoms from any of them. But close inbreeding is also not done.

I'll stick to what I have been doing at my house, pray for the joeys born with this and hope no more are produced.

And Alden, as for cover-up. While I can not comment on Nicole's gliders, this post is what informed me, prior to that Beth's gliders have been talked and posted about for many years, Nicole has even made her own comments in them. I believe old posts on several boards still survive. Just because breeders of the last few years did not know about it does not mean it was covered up. If there was a cover up it was only due to recent facts.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011532
09/30/10 07:04 PM
09/30/10 07:04 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
G
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis
gliderma  Offline
Serious Glideritis
G

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
I am a very small scale breeder, but do have Frodo in the lines as do most of us. I have never had a joey with this type of problem to my knowledge. I have lost a few at very young ages, so I cannot say for sure. I would be willing to help with any fund raising or research into this as I do believe we will all benefit from the information.


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011535
09/30/10 07:36 PM
09/30/10 07:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Hmmm. I missed the place where Nicole decided a vet wasn't needed.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011537
09/30/10 07:49 PM
09/30/10 07:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Here is my Hook, this video is not easy to watch. So be warned. At least it's not for me...



Last edited by sugarlope; 09/30/10 10:00 PM. Reason: edited text

Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011545
09/30/10 08:09 PM
09/30/10 08:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
T
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave
tjlong  Offline
Glider Slave
T

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
Oh poor little guy. Adri, thank you for sharing. Are his movements different than the video I saw of Beth's joeys? Is it just me? Maybe he is older than they were in their video?


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011553
09/30/10 08:24 PM
09/30/10 08:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Hook is 2 years old Tracy, Beth's are actually older. The movements are the same Hook is just far more severe, in my opinion.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri] #1011556
09/30/10 08:41 PM
09/30/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
In response to what Alicia wrote about Nicole, I wrote that I didn't understand what she was saying, since Nicole had said she was taking her gliders to the vet. Alicia responded to me saying that Nicole had said she was NOT taking her gliders to the vet. My response was to Alicia, saying that I didn't see that.

I was NOT in any way trying to scold Nicole, or anything like that.

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 10/01/10 02:43 AM. Reason: clarification

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011557
09/30/10 08:41 PM
09/30/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
T
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave
tjlong  Offline
Glider Slave
T

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
I think you are right about hook's being very severe. Beth's video isn't as clear so this helps us to see their movements even better.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011582
09/30/10 09:15 PM
09/30/10 09:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Alden, I just wanted to clarify so there is no discussion and we can move on Alicia did not say Nicole was not taking her gliders to the vet she said:

Quote:
and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet.


I think your eyes read to fast. We all do it at times.

All I know is I had spoke with a few different people about raising money for testing...testing needs to be done the way the vets feel it is needed, not the way we feel it is needed. Had the blood work came back negative for toxoplasmosis and the next step was a cat scan, well then, we would have tried to raise money for that as well, and I know the Whole community would have been supportive and helped how they could.

Nicole, just to clarify, more than one glider would have been needed because he also wanted to go over all the results and see if there was any common denominator there that could lead them to what this might be and if it was not toxo, which step, through what the tests results showed, should be...

Neither here nor there.They are their gliders to do with what they want.

I had not even made mention to Beth what type of test would be run, so it was very obvious to me from her response that her and Nicole had been talking about this. Beth is the one who said test for Toxoplasmosis No, but if you want to raise the money for a cat scan, I'll be all over that. She said I should have plenty of other samples from the other gliders that people have with this syndrome. Yet her, Nicole, and Adri are the only ones I am aware of...

Nicole claims she feels it is 99.9% CA, I am thinking she might be wrong in her suspicions...but that is why a veterinarian and proper testing is required.

To find out the Truecause of this.

I guess I would have understood them saying no a little easier if either of them had went to their vet and discussed the test with them and their vet said they felt it wasnt necessary, but to be told no because they felt it wasnt that because they read on the internet and feel they know (99.9%)that it is CA...well that is just heartbreaking...IMO anyway.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: queenduck] #1011583
09/30/10 09:45 PM
09/30/10 09:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: queenduck
Alden, Nicole had agreed to starting with bloodwork at no cost to her, and then changed her mind once she did her internet research and found out about CA, not after seeing a vet.

However, we never got that far, bloodwork is no longer needed because Nicole doesn't think it is. She didn't want to take advise of Dr. Tristan because she no longer thinks it is needed.


That is what I was responding to. I was not aware that Nicole had decided that seeing a vet, bloodwork, and advise from Dr. Tristan was not necessary.

Ok? Please - I was just stating "I was not aware" I didn't mean for it to become a new sub-topic in this thread!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011600
09/30/10 10:27 PM
09/30/10 10:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Research on your own to get ideas absolutely OK feel free to bring your ideas to a vet! However, making a diagnosis without having proper tests with people who know what they are doing .... not ok. Stating that your positive this or that is the cause on a open forum, full of very new people, again, not ok.

Everyone please remember this is a novice forum, and what you say will be absorbed into the minds of a lot of new people.

Please note that ALL gliders need to see a vet, and proper diagnostics should be done, at no point in time should ANYONE self diagnose an animal in less they are a knowledgeable aka a current licensed vet. Also taking your glider to your regular clinic that doesn't understand exotics does not constitute an appropriate vet visit.

Gliders are exotic animals, it is more than highly probable that they will NOT show typical signs of a diseases you may see in Dogs/Cats/Horses (not sure how horses are even able to be compared they are completely different). Note that when you look up diseases, they will give common signs and symptoms for dogs and cats etc. Gliders may very well NOT show these things and google most likely is not going to have the answer for you on common diseases that have also been done on marsupials, or the gliders themselves.

I would like to note that Toxoplasmosis though unlikely, is possible, along with many other things. Toxoplasmosis in immunocompromised animals and humans can cause severe issues, it crosses placenta and can cause birth defects and other issues in the fetus. Long story short, possible. It is not just transmitted though cats - or direct feces contact. It is a highly pathenogic worldwide zoonotic disease. The word impossible should not be used at this point in time :)Lets replace it with unlikely. smile

As many of these animals that are showing these signs should be tested as possible, if you really want to know the answer, if you really want to find the solution, then you wouldnt hesitate....especially with people willing to foot the cost. We can end speculation, and at least rule out some possibilities. With blood we can have many tests done, not just dx for toxo, but full organ panels to test organ functioning and output levels (helping to narrow down if there are organs effected by this). Tons of neat stuff!


Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/30/10 10:36 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011616
09/30/10 11:23 PM
09/30/10 11:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
Glider Slave
DirtyPaws  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
Wait wait wait wait just one minute! I came here to pick up where I'd left off (page 5 maybe) and Nicole edited and deleted the info in her posts tant Niiiiiicoooooole! Hmph ohwell

I was just skimming through the posts on my phone as they arrived in my email and was really interested in all the research and information that was being posted. In fact, I was goning to make a thank you post for everyone staying civil, for all the research these ladies had done, and for sharing everything. I've never heard of any of this stuff and am a sponge when it comes to glider health & care.

So I decide I'll try to find and save Nicole's posts from my deleted emails. I sware it's like she edited them right outta my email too! The posts that are still on the board are also in my deleted folder, but not the ones with all her research findings.

And Adri, I would love to get the chance to meet and love on your little Hook someday heart He is a doll and you could tell he seemed 'better' by being on you mlove

Now, just curious here. How many pairings do we know about with such close inbreeding as these 'wiggle' babies that DO NOT have Frodo in their lineage. Have we seen inbreeding this close that didn't produce this? Surely some of the first kept lineages will show this, as inbreeding/line breeding was more common.

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: DirtyPaws] #1011640
10/01/10 04:38 AM
10/01/10 04:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

Now, just curious here. How many pairings do we know about with such close inbreeding as these 'wiggle' babies that DO NOT have Frodo in their lineage. Have we seen inbreeding this close that didn't produce this? Surely some of the first kept lineages will show this, as inbreeding/line breeding was more common.

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?


The key is that the mosaics were inbred... and nobody is really sure how closely because records were destroyed. The sterility came out of severe inbreeding... and it seems that the wiggles do as well. This is a huge factor, and we have seen that (in mosaics) the trait became x-linked and genetic. (although there are theories that it was in the female genetics before the inbreeding).

The wiggle issue could also be passed from those who exhibit the characteristic, but that could only be determined by breeding the wiggles... and NO breeder I know would go so far as to do that.

We also forget that Micky and Minnie were brother and sister... that is supposed to be the worst genetic paring possible... as well as Tammy and Tommy.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but Chip, Saleen, Shy Baby, and Twinke have not shown any major defects...

So... basically we have no conclusion... other than that more testing is needed. (I definitally do NOT claim to be an expert of any kind here)

What I find that does definitally point to something NOT genetic... is the frequency... in the general population has been discussed, but nobody has mentioned the oddity of the fact that EVERY glider from the two pairings that produced wiggles...was a wiggle!
For example, if we assume it is a recessive characteristic, then only 1/4 of the babies from those pairs would have it (simmilar to the odds of leu babies from two 100% leu hets). Also, if the same is true, there would be a LOT more in the community, not just in isolated incidents.

I think, if we are to take blood from the wiggle joeys, Dr. Tristan should figure out ALL that he thinks he can rule out from blood, as Nicole does have a point to be concerned about these gliders going under anesthesia more than absolutely necessary. If the blood is used to rule out many things, as well as compare... then it will be more "worth" drawing it and we will be able to find out more answers (or rule out more things) from one blood draw. I would consider it very important to get as much out of the one blood draw as we are able to with the amount of blood that we can draw from a glider. And Yes, I would be willing to donate to help with the cause and moreso if we are testing for more things.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 10/01/10 04:40 AM. Reason: clarified

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: wildlifeangel] #1011723
10/01/10 10:35 AM
10/01/10 10:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: wildlifeangel

What I find that does definitally point to something NOT genetic... is the frequency... in the general population has been discussed, but nobody has mentioned the oddity of the fact that EVERY glider from the two pairings that produced wiggles...was a wiggle!
For example, if we assume it is a recessive characteristic, then only 1/4 of the babies from those pairs would have it (simmilar to the odds of leu babies from two 100% leu hets). Also, if the same is true, there would be a LOT more in the community, not just in isolated incidents.


Nadine, I have to disagree with you here. Nana and Proud had twins, Captain and Hook. Captain was and is perfectly normal yet Hook is not. They also had Tinkerbell which was 4 months give or take when I got them and she was perfectly normal too. Just because Smidgin and Kitty produced 3 out of 3 thus far does not mean that if they were allowed to continue to breed they would not have produced normal joeys. Just like when we breed for color though the odds of a joey expressing a color are 1 in 4 doesn't mean you will get them exactly in that order.

When you study the genetic make up of anything you will ALWAYS find thousands of mutations or flaws with in it. Now with that said, who is to say there is not a huge gaping hole in the genetic makeup of the Frodo line? There very well can be, just as I am sure there are thousands of gaping holes every line, but then again we go back to the odds game. First the parents would BOTH have to have inherited the same flaw on the same allele and those alleles would have to line up at the exact time of conception for the defect to manifest. This is exactly why I have been stressing that is not an issue of major concern if the lines are bred properly.

The issue with sterility in mosaics is no different. I am certain the original mosaics had the gentetic gaping hole if you will in their genetic make up. It was only after generations of inbreeding their offspring that sterility was set in the line. Same thing happens in dog breeding all the time, because dog breeding is more complex than breeding gliders. Why do I say that? Breeding dogs involves the setting in certain phenotypes (appearance characteristics)for example broad chest, a short snout, coat length and so on. The problem occurs when the dogs used to set these traits in are from the same lines and have these genetic gaping holes for other issues, like deafness, hip dysplasia and many others.

While it is true that many of our founding color gliders were severely inbred and show no effects from it, does not mean they did not inherit and pass on to their offspring genetic defects in their DNA. That is why it is vital that inbreeding does not occur, as that will help prevent these genetic defects from setting into our lines.

Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

What about the inbreed mo's that ended up with sterile lines? Were there no 'wiggle' babies born back then?


Crystal, each line will have it's own issues and defects within it's DNA. Mosaics we know have sterility, Frodo seems to have the wiggles and Creminos seem to have an immune deficiency. Having this knowledge just gives us the upper hand when pairing our gliders. It doesn't mean you can't or should not breed them, you just have to make sure there is no inbreeding. As this will GREATLY eliminate the possibility of any of these defects manifesting.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011746
10/01/10 11:47 AM
10/01/10 11:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Adri, I stand corrected, I wasn't 100% sure, but I hadn't heard of normal siblings.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011781
10/01/10 12:49 PM
10/01/10 12:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Adri - you are over your PM limit!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011841
10/01/10 03:05 PM
10/01/10 03:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Adri, you're alot better at wording things then I am. I don't know all the "scientific" words for things, so I'm not always sure how to get things across without just making it more confusing. :\

I agree with you completely. We need to focus more on HOW we are breeding and not WHO we are breeding. It doesn't matter if a glider is from the Frodo line or from the cremino line or ANY line. The point is that if we are going to breed ANY glider back to the line that they're already from, then it needs to be done with extreme care.

There WILL be more issues that pop up in the future. It's to be expected. We can either panic and neuter all our gliders or we can take a step back to LEARN from these mistakes and move forward more carefully.

If we're able to stay civil then, perhaps, when things like this happen in the future breeders will be more likely to post about it and not hold back for fear of the onslaught they'll receive because of it. I can guarantee that there are a LOT of accidental inbreedings out there and there've probably been multiple joeys born from these inbreedings that have issues. However, when breeders see how people have reacted in the past and how the other breeders in their situation got bashed and slandered(maybe not here on GC, but there are other forums on which it most certainly does happen and IS happening), well, it doesn't exactly make those breeders want to step forward.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1011844
10/01/10 03:11 PM
10/01/10 03:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Research on your own to get ideas absolutely OK feel free to bring your ideas to a vet! However, making a diagnosis without having proper tests with people who know what they are doing .... not ok. Stating that your positive this or that is the cause on a open forum, full of very new people, again, not ok.

Everyone please remember this is a novice forum, and what you say will be absorbed into the minds of a lot of new people.

Please note that ALL gliders need to see a vet, and proper diagnostics should be done, at no point in time should ANYONE self diagnose an animal in less they are a knowledgeable aka a current licensed vet. Also taking your glider to your regular clinic that doesn't understand exotics does not constitute an appropriate vet visit.

Gliders are exotic animals, it is more than highly probable that they will NOT show typical signs of a diseases you may see in Dogs/Cats/Horses (not sure how horses are even able to be compared they are completely different). Note that when you look up diseases, they will give common signs and symptoms for dogs and cats etc. Gliders may very well NOT show these things and google most likely is not going to have the answer for you on common diseases that have also been done on marsupials, or the gliders themselves.

I would like to note that Toxoplasmosis though unlikely, is possible, along with many other things. Toxoplasmosis in immunocompromised animals and humans can cause severe issues, it crosses placenta and can cause birth defects and other issues in the fetus. Long story short, possible. It is not just transmitted though cats - or direct feces contact. It is a highly pathenogic worldwide zoonotic disease. The word impossible should not be used at this point in time :)Lets replace it with unlikely. smile

As many of these animals that are showing these signs should be tested as possible, if you really want to know the answer, if you really want to find the solution, then you wouldnt hesitate....especially with people willing to foot the cost. We can end speculation, and at least rule out some possibilities. With blood we can have many tests done, not just dx for toxo, but full organ panels to test organ functioning and output levels (helping to narrow down if there are organs effected by this). Tons of neat stuff!



clap

I would love for something to be done to determine if this is simply an inbreeding issue, or has a genetic trait to it, or a combination of both. I hope something can/will be done with those that do have these gliders and their parents. A lot of questions and suppositions could potentially be answered.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Guerita135] #1011883
10/01/10 06:12 PM
10/01/10 06:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Guerita135

If we're able to stay civil then, perhaps, when things like this happen in the future breeders will be more likely to post about it and not hold back for fear of the onslaught they'll receive because of it. I can guarantee that there are a LOT of accidental inbreedings out there and there've probably been multiple joeys born from these inbreedings that have issues. However, when breeders see how people have reacted in the past and how the other breeders in their situation got bashed and slandered(maybe not here on GC, but there are other forums on which it most certainly does happen and IS happening), well, it doesn't exactly make those breeders want to step forward.


Nicole, I feel it is every breeders moral obligation to come forward with any issues they may encounter. It is the only way to prevent from it reoccurring. Sure an accident can happen to anyone, I agree. But sweeping things under the rug is wrong on all levels. Knowledge is the only tool we truly posses.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011894
10/01/10 07:11 PM
10/01/10 07:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis
Cora  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
As a small scale (Ok very small) breeder I could not agree more!
OT Please everyone look at the petglider.com and make sure any glider you have that bred has the correct info there, OK pretty please!


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011922
10/01/10 08:30 PM
10/01/10 08:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Thanks to Mary Holcombe(and Cora for getting me in touch with her!), we've now got our first OFFICIAL vet response to this condition:

Quote:
When I looked at the first video, and before I even saw the second email
about CA, I was immediately thinking about a condition called cerebellar
hypoplasia, seen in cats. The signs would be basically the same as
cerebellar abiotrophy.

I did not read a large amount of the forum discussion as it is many
pages long and I am in the midst of appointments, but I will say that
the fact that it is occurring consistently in certain breeding pairs
ABSOLUTELY supports the fact that it is genetic.

The solution is to stop breeding these pairs.
The next step is to try to identify traits that are consistent in the
parents that are having these joeys - for example, mosaics were
mentioned several times... So if it is strictly occurring when mosaics
are bred to mosaics, then that is likely the predisposing factor.

The way to confirm the disease and to be absolutely certain that there
is not an infection or other underlying disease is to do a necropsy. I
am not suggesting that any of these animals be euthanized - I truly
believe that they have a good quality of life, as they have never known
life any other way, and it probably bothers us more than it bothers
them. However, as they age, when one does die of natural or other
causes, it would be ideal to have a complete necropsy performed,
including collection of the brain, and have all samples submitted for
tissue analysis (histopathology) to a pathologist experienced in sugar
gliders. That would be a very important piece of information and
eliminates all the 'guessing' and 'theorizing'.

Lastly - there is no treatment if that is truly the condition. Like I
said, their quality of life is generally good, even though they may need
special caging and care.



Natalie
Natalie Antinoff, DVM
Diplomate ABVP (Avian)
Gulf Coast Avian & Exotics
Gulf Coast Veterinary Specialists


Dr. Antinoff has been treating gliders since before Mary even got into them(almost 16 years ago), so she's seen alot and knows her stuff!

This is her first response and I tend to ask alot more questions and also am hoping to get her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person. I'll keep you guys updated.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1011923
10/01/10 08:34 PM
10/01/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis
Cora  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Dr. Antinoff is working with a neurologist thats why I pointed you to Mary. She wants to help.
OT I have asked Mary to go to the pet glider database to make sure the info for Pele and the others from the glider tree are correct. She said she has everything written down (I love this woman) and will be studying it, she can also add some OOP and expiration dates.


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Cora] #1011958
10/01/10 10:01 PM
10/01/10 10:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
her in touch with MY vet so that she can talk to a vet that's actually seen a "wiggle baby" in person. I'll keep you guys updated.


This is wonderful that this vet is willing to help as well, but did I miss something?

You stated your vet can actually talk with a vet who has seen a wiggle baby in person....who did he see before? I think you left that part out.

And since he stated that he feels that nothing can be done to determine this except through necropsy, does that mean no testing will be done (IE; Cat Scan)? As some vets feel a cat scan can help determine the issues...


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Srlb] #1011964
10/01/10 10:09 PM
10/01/10 10:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,939
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,939
LittleRock, AR USA
Peggy, it is difficult to know who you are quoting since you don't use either the quote or quick quote feature.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Page 7 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver 

Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (sugarlope, theresaw), 32 guests, and 305 spiders.
Key: , , Owner, Admin
Newest Members
Ciaranna, mehmoh, Mitzasmom, micahbear, JaelynRae
7017 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums132
Topics9,959
Posts156,762
posts in the last 24hrs0
Members7,018
Most Online1,230
Jul 28th, 2019
Last 10 New Topics
Maple syrup
by evita29. 12/09/19 12:16 PM
Odd "whisker" on back
by 603gliderfolks. 12/09/19 08:26 AM
Diet questions from a newbie
by 603gliderfolks. 12/06/19 09:21 AM
Tika's poop test...
by CKC44. 12/05/19 09:47 PM
Wild baby
by Jarryl. 12/04/19 12:19 AM
glider colony question.
by BYK_Chainsaw. 12/03/19 12:44 AM
1st post is a very sad one... Please help.
by 603gliderfolks. 12/01/19 12:37 PM
Glider threw up after having turkey!
by Lorin1991. 11/29/19 05:42 AM
Popular Topics(Views)
790,774 TEXAS
631,243 OHIO
437,676 OKLAHOMA
387,969 UTAH
284,673 NORTH CAROLINA
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!
Home Forums Links Sitemap Vets Breeders Sounds Contact Us Names Rules & Policies

GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2019
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.113s Queries: 15 (0.035s) Memory: 1.5644 MB (Peak: 1.9664 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2019-12-12 04:35:59 UTC