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Lineaged Gliders to Back Yard Breeders #1420360
05/09/19 11:03 AM
05/09/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
Hypothetically, should lineaged gliders be given to Back Yard breeders?

After being in the glider community (although not a breeder myself) for almost two decades, and seeing how breeders have worked so hard on the breeding lines and keeping track of the lineage of their breeding gliders, would it now be unfair to have some of those lineaged gliders given to Back Yard breeders?

I have some concerns over placing these gliders with Back Yard breeders:

  • Should They Be "Pet Only Gliders"
  • Should Intact Males Be Placed
  • Should Breeding Age Females Be Placed
  • Who Should Be Responsible For Tracking These Placed Gliders
  • Would There Be Any Responsibility for Breeding With Unlineaged Gliders


I suppose my biggest question is WHY. Why would this even be done on purpose?


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420361
05/09/19 11:18 AM
05/09/19 11:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
I would have serious concerns. Many people have given lineaged gliders away for breeding purposes, but they are typically given to those that are knowledgeable. Given to responsible breeders that have learned the importance of lineage and responsible breeding.

Typically when people give breeding gliders, they retire them first (neuter the males) and place them as pets. There are no standards or laws in place that put any requirements on them though.

Tracking would be near impossible. Once a glider goes into anyone's home, all anyone can do at that point is take their word.

The biggest concern is placing breedable gliders into what most consider "irresponsible" homes. These lineaged gliders could be breed with non-lineaged gliders. That is where the destruction of the line starts. This would be going backwards from what breeders have tried to establish with gliders.

I would prefer seeing someone mentor those to teach them about reaponsible breeding first. After they have learned, and all unlineaged pairs retired, then start to establish a proper breeding program.

Last edited by GliderNursery; 05/09/19 11:20 AM.

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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Back Yard Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420363
05/09/19 11:27 AM
05/09/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted by GliderNursery
I would prefer seeing someone mentor those to teach them about reaponsible breeding first. After they have learned, and all unlineaged pairs retired, then start to establish a proper breeding program.


IMO, this would be the most responsible thing to do that would have a long lasting effect. Excellent point, Shelly.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420366
05/09/19 11:33 AM
05/09/19 11:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict
Sherri  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
The issue I have is that there are already so many people starting their own lineages with gliders that they have no history on and calling it lineage, not realizing that all of our gliders started from the same lines and have lineage already, so they don't know if theirs are related or if there is any health risks with their gliders.

Another issue I have is that there would not be anything stopping them from breeding their new lineaged gliders to their non lineaged glider's and again "creating" their own lines from them.

But I think my biggest problem with this is that as a breeder and adopting out alot of pet only females myself, I would be upset if I found out that they were being bred. I don't mind working with someone to obtain the breeding rights and lineage if they decided later that they wanted to breed that female if they just came and talked to me, but so many people don't do that.

Even though they do not get lineage on my pet only females, they know that they have lineage so that makes it a selling tool for them to tell THEIR adopters of those joeys that their parents have lineage, even though they never actually recieved said lineage because they adopted pet only.

I just don't think it's a good idea to GIVE lineaged gliders away in hopes of turning back yard breeders around and doing things responsibly. People tell you all day long things you want to hear but don't actually follow through with what they told you. The % is actually very small of those back yard breeders changing what they are doing because of us educating them on the importance of lineage.

If only there was a safe way to sterilize the females. frown

*all of my pet only males are neutered before they leave*


sherri

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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420368
05/09/19 11:46 AM
05/09/19 11:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,782
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,782
St. Johns, Florida
HUGE concerns here for me. I guess my biggest question to this is WHY as well Karen.

If backyard breeders really 'cared' about the well being and health of the animals they breed, there would not be any.
Backyard breeders are completely in it for the money. Period.

Now, with that being said, and playing devils advocate here, I am sure there are a few folks out there that have purchased their gliders from Craigslists, Pet Stores, Flea Markets, etc... and have no idea how small the gene pool for our gliders actually is. I am sure, if they were reached out to and educated about it it would make a world of difference, they would neuter their males, keep pet only cages of the gliders they have and PURCHASE lineaged animals to start over again. If the money is INVESTED into the animals, than the MIND is also invested and the lesson in education has been learned.

However, you will also have those that will say, yes, I will neuter my males, and they may even neuter one or two, but what is to stop those, that are in it for money, from waiting a short bit and taking the new free lineaged gliders and breeding them to the females they still have that are unlineaged?

So, lets play this out another way.... the person giving away free lineaged gliders make a deal with the backyard breeders... you neuter your males and give the person giving away lineaged gliders the pairings you currently have (to more or less guarantee those females cannot be bred again) and then the giver feels confident the job is done. These backyard breeders now have lineaged gliders.... The giver may continue talking with receivers, but in the meantime, the receivers are finding new free sugargliders on Craigslist or buying them cheap at shows..... and guess what, now those lineaged lines are crossed in with non-lineaged lines....

Nope, nope, Nope. I just dont see how any good can come out of it....


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420381
05/09/19 03:48 PM
05/09/19 03:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,582
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator
Ladymagyver  Offline
Moderator

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,582
SW Missouri
It would be nice if there were better ways to prove lineage.

Can a glider be tagged? Similar to other pets?

Or are they too sensitive for that?

It would be great if somehow they could be electronically tagged.

I know that technology is getting smaller. By that I mean the actual device.

One of our members took micro photos of glider body parts. One of them was of a toe pad. Did you know they actually have finger prints?


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420384
05/09/19 09:24 PM
05/09/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
Atlanta, GA
S
Shirl Offline
New Member
Shirl  Offline
New Member
S

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
Atlanta, GA
I have talked at length with my exotic vets about using a microchip in gliders, but the problem lies with the data that would need to be on it. Most microchips have a very limited data field. And at the time of our discussion a few years ago, there were only migrating microchips on the market. Fast forward a few years and we now have non-migrating chips. The other concern was how the glider would react with the foreign object in their body.

As for the lineaged gliders to backyard breeders, as sad as this is, how are we really going to stop it? The BYB's when educated on lineage, they just make up their own. Give them a lineaged pair and watch them split that pair to make TWO breeding pair and they will have lineage on 1 of the gliders from each pair and think that is good enough. Its going to be a mess that will affect EVERYONE who breeds true lineaged gliders.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Shirl] #1420385
05/09/19 09:58 PM
05/09/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
Excellent points, Shirl. Thank you for your input.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Shirl] #1420387
05/09/19 10:27 PM
05/09/19 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,352
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,352
Wisconsin
Originally Posted by Shirl
I have talked at length with my exotic vets about using a microchip in gliders, but the problem lies with the data that would need to be on it. Ok, not saying this would happen, but if we were to give sugar glider registration numbers like they do with horses, the only thing that would need to be on the microchip would be its registration number.

For it to work, the joeys information would need to be submitted to The Pet Glider and one of their staff would assign registration numbers and enter the information. No more having people enter their own information.


Most microchips have a very limited data field. And at the time of our discussion a few years ago, there were only migrating microchips on the market. Fast forward a few years and we now have non-migrating chips. The other concern was how the glider would react with the foreign object in their body.

As for the lineaged gliders to backyard breeders, as sad as this is, how are we really going to stop it? The BYB's when educated on lineage, they just make up their own. Give them a lineaged pair and watch them split that pair to make TWO breeding pair and they will have lineage on 1 of the gliders from each pair and think that is good enough. Its going to be a mess that will affect EVERYONE who breeds true lineaged gliders.

I agree.



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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Feather] #1420389
05/09/19 11:06 PM
05/09/19 11:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,712
LittleRock, AR USA
Since no one that we know of has ever tried to micro chip a sugar glider, I would have concerns about exactly where the chip would be placed as well as whether or not there would be any chance of the glider injuring itself trying to get rid of it.

With the females, if it is placed in the neck area, wouldn't this cause a problem for breeding females since that is where the male will grab the female to hold her during mating.

I would think placing it anywhere else, they would be able to reach it to try and remove if it was bothersome dunno

Posting when I'm tired, so hope all that made sense wink


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420418
05/17/19 12:18 AM
05/17/19 12:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 343
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
Glider Lover
Claralice  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 343
Ada OK
Okay, I am hearing experienced and reputable breeders describe why BYB should not occur. I wonder, how many were/are like me. I have no plan to breed my four but could have gotten lineage on my two Caramel males (now neutered) but not my two Leucistic females. I didn't and dont intend to breed. I researched quite a bit. In my research it did address lineage vaguely. However, there was not the kind of information that I stumbled upon on this site.
After reading this discussion, it feels elitist-and I know this is not what this discussion is about. However, I just have to wonder out loud, how many not yet members and surfers etc read this and say to themselves this matters not. There are probably many like me that saw these cute, tiny animals and dreamed of seeing the tiny cute babies. I would have been one of those "hobby" BYB as I didn't have enough knowledge to be anything else. Now, no way would I breed and risk my girls-with or without lineage.


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Freddie and Barnabus Caramel neutered males
Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Claralice] #1420422
05/17/19 09:34 AM
05/17/19 09:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,582
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator
Ladymagyver  Offline
Moderator

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,582
SW Missouri
Originally Posted by Claralice
Okay, I am hearing experienced and reputable breeders describe why BYB should not occur. I wonder, how many were/are like me. I have no plan to breed my four but could have gotten lineage on my two Caramel males (now neutered) but not my two Leucistic females. I didn't and dont intend to breed. I researched quite a bit. In my research it did address lineage vaguely. However, there was not the kind of information that I stumbled upon on this site.
After reading this discussion, it feels elitist-and I know this is not what this discussion is about. However, I just have to wonder out loud, how many not yet members and surfers etc read this and say to themselves this matters not. There are probably many like me that saw these cute, tiny animals and dreamed of seeing the tiny cute babies. I would have been one of those "hobby" BYB as I didn't have enough knowledge to be anything else. Now, no way would I breed and risk my girls-with or without lineage.


So, back yard breeding without lineage not knowing the gliders blood lines can easily lead to unknown inbreeding.

Most reputable breeders are working on better temperment, health, and colors. If I'm not mistaken, this post is mostly targeting glider mills who breed for profit, and not to improve the bloodlines, health or temperment of their gliders.

Backyard breeder are those who breed their unlineaged gliders to cash in and recoup their initial expense of buying the gliders in the first place.

The glider owners who have bred their gliders to go through the "Joey experience" which we have had several members do to build a colony, usually separate and neuter all males after their first successful set of joeys. There may already be a couple of joeys "in the oven" so to speak, and it happens.

I hope I explained that correctly...

I hope that helps...


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420423
05/17/19 10:23 PM
05/17/19 10:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 343
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
Glider Lover
Claralice  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 343
Ada OK
Thanks Dawn, I was only concerned as someone that is learning but prior to this site thought I understood. Breeding is so complex and I would never (now that I know better) do anything to risk mine-or gliders in general. However, not everyone out there gets it and I agree with others; probably just dont care about "improving" glider health.


Marshmallow and Snowball :leu: :leu:
Freddie and Barnabus Caramel neutered males

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