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Lineaged Gliders to Back Yard Breeders #1420360
05/09/19 11:03 AM
05/09/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Hypothetically, should lineaged gliders be given to Back Yard breeders?

After being in the glider community (although not a breeder myself) for almost two decades, and seeing how breeders have worked so hard on the breeding lines and keeping track of the lineage of their breeding gliders, would it now be unfair to have some of those lineaged gliders given to Back Yard breeders?

I have some concerns over placing these gliders with Back Yard breeders:

  • Should They Be "Pet Only Gliders"
  • Should Intact Males Be Placed
  • Should Breeding Age Females Be Placed
  • Who Should Be Responsible For Tracking These Placed Gliders
  • Would There Be Any Responsibility for Breeding With Unlineaged Gliders


I suppose my biggest question is WHY. Why would this even be done on purpose?


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420361
05/09/19 11:18 AM
05/09/19 11:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
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GliderNursery  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
I would have serious concerns. Many people have given lineaged gliders away for breeding purposes, but they are typically given to those that are knowledgeable. Given to responsible breeders that have learned the importance of lineage and responsible breeding.

Typically when people give breeding gliders, they retire them first (neuter the males) and place them as pets. There are no standards or laws in place that put any requirements on them though.

Tracking would be near impossible. Once a glider goes into anyone's home, all anyone can do at that point is take their word.

The biggest concern is placing breedable gliders into what most consider "irresponsible" homes. These lineaged gliders could be breed with non-lineaged gliders. That is where the destruction of the line starts. This would be going backwards from what breeders have tried to establish with gliders.

I would prefer seeing someone mentor those to teach them about reaponsible breeding first. After they have learned, and all unlineaged pairs retired, then start to establish a proper breeding program.

Last edited by GliderNursery; 05/09/19 11:20 AM.

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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Back Yard Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420363
05/09/19 11:27 AM
05/09/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted by GliderNursery
I would prefer seeing someone mentor those to teach them about reaponsible breeding first. After they have learned, and all unlineaged pairs retired, then start to establish a proper breeding program.


IMO, this would be the most responsible thing to do that would have a long lasting effect. Excellent point, Shelly.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420366
05/09/19 11:33 AM
05/09/19 11:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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Sherri  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,830
Big Sandy TN
The issue I have is that there are already so many people starting their own lineages with gliders that they have no history on and calling it lineage, not realizing that all of our gliders started from the same lines and have lineage already, so they don't know if theirs are related or if there is any health risks with their gliders.

Another issue I have is that there would not be anything stopping them from breeding their new lineaged gliders to their non lineaged glider's and again "creating" their own lines from them.

But I think my biggest problem with this is that as a breeder and adopting out alot of pet only females myself, I would be upset if I found out that they were being bred. I don't mind working with someone to obtain the breeding rights and lineage if they decided later that they wanted to breed that female if they just came and talked to me, but so many people don't do that.

Even though they do not get lineage on my pet only females, they know that they have lineage so that makes it a selling tool for them to tell THEIR adopters of those joeys that their parents have lineage, even though they never actually recieved said lineage because they adopted pet only.

I just don't think it's a good idea to GIVE lineaged gliders away in hopes of turning back yard breeders around and doing things responsibly. People tell you all day long things you want to hear but don't actually follow through with what they told you. The % is actually very small of those back yard breeders changing what they are doing because of us educating them on the importance of lineage.

If only there was a safe way to sterilize the females. frown

*all of my pet only males are neutered before they leave*


sherri

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My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420368
05/09/19 11:46 AM
05/09/19 11:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
HUGE concerns here for me. I guess my biggest question to this is WHY as well Karen.

If backyard breeders really 'cared' about the well being and health of the animals they breed, there would not be any.
Backyard breeders are completely in it for the money. Period.

Now, with that being said, and playing devils advocate here, I am sure there are a few folks out there that have purchased their gliders from Craigslists, Pet Stores, Flea Markets, etc... and have no idea how small the gene pool for our gliders actually is. I am sure, if they were reached out to and educated about it it would make a world of difference, they would neuter their males, keep pet only cages of the gliders they have and PURCHASE lineaged animals to start over again. If the money is INVESTED into the animals, than the MIND is also invested and the lesson in education has been learned.

However, you will also have those that will say, yes, I will neuter my males, and they may even neuter one or two, but what is to stop those, that are in it for money, from waiting a short bit and taking the new free lineaged gliders and breeding them to the females they still have that are unlineaged?

So, lets play this out another way.... the person giving away free lineaged gliders make a deal with the backyard breeders... you neuter your males and give the person giving away lineaged gliders the pairings you currently have (to more or less guarantee those females cannot be bred again) and then the giver feels confident the job is done. These backyard breeders now have lineaged gliders.... The giver may continue talking with receivers, but in the meantime, the receivers are finding new free sugargliders on Craigslist or buying them cheap at shows..... and guess what, now those lineaged lines are crossed in with non-lineaged lines....

Nope, nope, Nope. I just dont see how any good can come out of it....


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420381
05/09/19 03:48 PM
05/09/19 03:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,674
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator
Ladymagyver  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,674
SW Missouri
It would be nice if there were better ways to prove lineage.

Can a glider be tagged? Similar to other pets?

Or are they too sensitive for that?

It would be great if somehow they could be electronically tagged.

I know that technology is getting smaller. By that I mean the actual device.

One of our members took micro photos of glider body parts. One of them was of a toe pad. Did you know they actually have finger prints?


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420384
05/09/19 09:24 PM
05/09/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
Atlanta, GA
S
Shirl Offline
New Member
Shirl  Offline
New Member
S

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
Atlanta, GA
I have talked at length with my exotic vets about using a microchip in gliders, but the problem lies with the data that would need to be on it. Most microchips have a very limited data field. And at the time of our discussion a few years ago, there were only migrating microchips on the market. Fast forward a few years and we now have non-migrating chips. The other concern was how the glider would react with the foreign object in their body.

As for the lineaged gliders to backyard breeders, as sad as this is, how are we really going to stop it? The BYB's when educated on lineage, they just make up their own. Give them a lineaged pair and watch them split that pair to make TWO breeding pair and they will have lineage on 1 of the gliders from each pair and think that is good enough. Its going to be a mess that will affect EVERYONE who breeds true lineaged gliders.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Shirl] #1420385
05/09/19 09:58 PM
05/09/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Excellent points, Shirl. Thank you for your input.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Shirl] #1420387
05/09/19 10:27 PM
05/09/19 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,418
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,418
Wisconsin
Originally Posted by Shirl
I have talked at length with my exotic vets about using a microchip in gliders, but the problem lies with the data that would need to be on it. Ok, not saying this would happen, but if we were to give sugar glider registration numbers like they do with horses, the only thing that would need to be on the microchip would be its registration number.

For it to work, the joeys information would need to be submitted to The Pet Glider and one of their staff would assign registration numbers and enter the information. No more having people enter their own information.


Most microchips have a very limited data field. And at the time of our discussion a few years ago, there were only migrating microchips on the market. Fast forward a few years and we now have non-migrating chips. The other concern was how the glider would react with the foreign object in their body.

As for the lineaged gliders to backyard breeders, as sad as this is, how are we really going to stop it? The BYB's when educated on lineage, they just make up their own. Give them a lineaged pair and watch them split that pair to make TWO breeding pair and they will have lineage on 1 of the gliders from each pair and think that is good enough. Its going to be a mess that will affect EVERYONE who breeds true lineaged gliders.

I agree.



Kimberley
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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Feather] #1420389
05/09/19 11:06 PM
05/09/19 11:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Since no one that we know of has ever tried to micro chip a sugar glider, I would have concerns about exactly where the chip would be placed as well as whether or not there would be any chance of the glider injuring itself trying to get rid of it.

With the females, if it is placed in the neck area, wouldn't this cause a problem for breeding females since that is where the male will grab the female to hold her during mating.

I would think placing it anywhere else, they would be able to reach it to try and remove if it was bothersome dunno

Posting when I'm tired, so hope all that made sense wink


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420418
05/17/19 12:18 AM
05/17/19 12:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 353
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
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Claralice  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 353
Ada OK
Okay, I am hearing experienced and reputable breeders describe why BYB should not occur. I wonder, how many were/are like me. I have no plan to breed my four but could have gotten lineage on my two Caramel males (now neutered) but not my two Leucistic females. I didn't and dont intend to breed. I researched quite a bit. In my research it did address lineage vaguely. However, there was not the kind of information that I stumbled upon on this site.
After reading this discussion, it feels elitist-and I know this is not what this discussion is about. However, I just have to wonder out loud, how many not yet members and surfers etc read this and say to themselves this matters not. There are probably many like me that saw these cute, tiny animals and dreamed of seeing the tiny cute babies. I would have been one of those "hobby" BYB as I didn't have enough knowledge to be anything else. Now, no way would I breed and risk my girls-with or without lineage.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Claralice] #1420422
05/17/19 09:34 AM
05/17/19 09:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,674
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator
Ladymagyver  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,674
SW Missouri
Originally Posted by Claralice
Okay, I am hearing experienced and reputable breeders describe why BYB should not occur. I wonder, how many were/are like me. I have no plan to breed my four but could have gotten lineage on my two Caramel males (now neutered) but not my two Leucistic females. I didn't and dont intend to breed. I researched quite a bit. In my research it did address lineage vaguely. However, there was not the kind of information that I stumbled upon on this site.
After reading this discussion, it feels elitist-and I know this is not what this discussion is about. However, I just have to wonder out loud, how many not yet members and surfers etc read this and say to themselves this matters not. There are probably many like me that saw these cute, tiny animals and dreamed of seeing the tiny cute babies. I would have been one of those "hobby" BYB as I didn't have enough knowledge to be anything else. Now, no way would I breed and risk my girls-with or without lineage.


So, back yard breeding without lineage not knowing the gliders blood lines can easily lead to unknown inbreeding.

Most reputable breeders are working on better temperment, health, and colors. If I'm not mistaken, this post is mostly targeting glider mills who breed for profit, and not to improve the bloodlines, health or temperment of their gliders.

Backyard breeder are those who breed their unlineaged gliders to cash in and recoup their initial expense of buying the gliders in the first place.

The glider owners who have bred their gliders to go through the "Joey experience" which we have had several members do to build a colony, usually separate and neuter all males after their first successful set of joeys. There may already be a couple of joeys "in the oven" so to speak, and it happens.

I hope I explained that correctly...

I hope that helps...


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420423
05/17/19 10:23 PM
05/17/19 10:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 353
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
Glider Lover
Claralice  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 353
Ada OK
Thanks Dawn, I was only concerned as someone that is learning but prior to this site thought I understood. Breeding is so complex and I would never (now that I know better) do anything to risk mine-or gliders in general. However, not everyone out there gets it and I agree with others; probably just dont care about "improving" glider health.


Marshmallow and Snowball :leu: :leu:
Freddie and Barnabus Caramel neutered males
Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420957
08/05/19 01:52 AM
08/05/19 01:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
T
the_eidolon Offline
New Member
the_eidolon  Offline
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T

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
Keep in mind that ten years ago, the common knowledge was that gliders could not even learn their own names. As of this year, a glider with a dental abscess can get jaw reconstruction with anti-biotic laced bone cement. Things have come a long way. If you try to search for information on lineage, the earliest posts you'll find online date from 2007-2011. Gliders can live as long as 12 or 15 years. There are excellent gliders who predate the insistence on lineaging.

Never forget the mission statement for breeding gliders: to improve the species by breeding a healthier, more domesticated animal. That is the end goal. Not money. Not pedigree (pedigree is just one of the tools you can use for this goal). Do NOT lose sight of the goal.

When selecting animals for breeding, look for:

- intelligence, the ability to solve problems and puzzles, to learn commands, and to master their environment and new contexts and challenges
- friendliness, a prosocial personality towards other gliders, humans, and even other pets, and a lack of neurotic behaviors such as self-mutilation or mutilation of other gliders, likes to be handled
- gentleness, difficulty to provoke biting, especially the sort that breaks the skin, does not fight other gliders, and does not leave mating wounds in the case of males, cares very much if their behavior is painful or distressing to others and adjusts it when it is
- longevity, a glider on average should live 10 years, but the goal is to breed gliders who make it 12-15 years and remain healthy into their geriatric years

Lineaged does NOT mean the glider is not inbred or that it's not from a mill or someone looking to cash in. Line breeding is a fancy term for inbreeding. The idea that gliders cannot safely reproduce if they are somehow related has no ground in science. We know that it is genetically safe for first cousins to produce offspring except in the cases of rare recessive defects. Would you want to do that continually? No. But the point is that the small risk of slight relatedness isn't an issue. This desire to create abnormal (and highly profitable) color morphs is where we really have an inbreeding problem, where generations of near relatives are being bred rather than a chance crossing of distant relatives.

Many posters in this thread are quick to judge in a way that sounds like they're at the top of another emu egg scam; only the earliest breeders profited and they convinced other people they would too. Their motives were impure. People who have developed and pushed lineaging are the ones who benefit from it financially. Anyone who really cares about these animals is working to find specimens that will improve the species and will work for years on their breeding programs before they start disseminating gliders. They carefully select individuals based on their health and behavior, with coloration being a far lesser goal than making a long-lived and friendly animal that doesn't self-mutilate. The policy of the lineage police is that anyone who has owned gliders for one year and will drink their koolaid and be mentored by one of them is qualified to breed. Until you've cared for a glider for its entire lifespan to death at old age... you don't know enough about these animals, and shame on the profiteers who say differently.

You know what the most common warning I get from lineagers is? "Without full lineage you won't be able to sell your gliders for as much money." That is a core motivation for many of these people. It is unethical and immoral.

Do your own research on genetics, learn about allele swapping, translocation, and mutation that occurs before genes split into haploid gamete cells (sperm and eggs). You and gliders are the same in that your sex cells aren't just half copies of your chromosomes; your cells swap alleles (mix together) from both sides of the XX or XY pair before splitting into gametes, meaning your X chromosome will have alleles from your other X or your Y chromosome depending on your sex.

Don't be a blind follower. Lineaged does not necessarily mean healthy or not inbred. Nonlineaged does not necessarily mean unhealthy or inbred. You need to know the animals you're breeding and make wise choices about which animals ought to be bred. DO keep account of lineage when you start breeding, DO use lineaged animals that ought to be bred, DON'T discount nonlineaged animals who are excellent specimens and ought to be bred, and DON'T breed a lineaged animal that is not an excellent specimen due to its health or temperament.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: the_eidolon] #1420968
08/06/19 12:57 AM
08/06/19 12:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
Glider Slave
Hutch  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
the_eidolon, interesting name considering your post... especially as your first post. Whether you intended it to come off that way or not, the wording of your comments is quite disrespectful of those who've posted here & the readers of the post. As someone who tends to be blunt & is frequently misunderstood when I'm not intending to be rude, I would love to give you the benefit of the doubt... but I also have a very think skin & you managed to rankle me.

You mentioned the first cousin argument... you are not incorrect in that, in theory, they may reproduce safely "except in the cases of rare recessive defects" & yet, without some history, we would not know when this is occurring. That's a pretty big, self-contradictory, argument against ignoring any form of linage, Koolaid or not. It is not a Ponzi (or Emu, as you choose to use to avoid the cliché). There is a basis for knowing a history within a couple of generation before breeding. It isn't any different than any other breed of creature in that it is good knowledge to have... might have saved me a little heartache with a previous (non-lineaged) German Shepard who turned out to have a hereditary mental illness.

Are there some unreputable breeders who inbreed and yet call it 'lineaged...' yeah, sure. They're not lying either if they have the history, they're just missing the point of having access to that history. That only proves they're uneducated, not scammers selling the next big get rich scheme. Should they prove otherwise... well, there is that quote of 'you will know them by their fruits.' You have heavily suggested that the contributors to this thread are that very type trying to use misinformation strictly to earn a profit. To be kind to you and your opinion, I will simply say that is unfair to them. I've interacted with several of these people for a few years now & have come to respect this advice, knowledge, & opinion. They expressed only what I believe to be legitimate concerns related to buying from a breeder who knows nothing of the history of their gliders. I agree with that. I intentionally purchased from a breeder who tracked their lines for several generations because I've dealt with the fallout from one who doesn't. As a result, while I have zero intention of breeding mine, if I chose to I could say the -should- have healthy joeys. I know within 3 generations that my males are not related to my females (who are sisters). That, really, is what this thread is about.

You seem to believe that everyone who wishes to purchase a pet should be educated on genetics at a Biology 201 level (at least that was when the specific topics you listed were covered in my general education). I disagree. If someone truly wants to get into breeding, then yes, they should educate themselves to that level to maintain a healthy program while reaching for the very goals you state. As a pet owner? No, the average Joe or Jane should not need to go that deep into genetics & the easiest way for them to be protected is knowing & being able to prove the line of the gliders for several generations. If that a guarantee? f course not, but it is a strong basis. That does not make them 'blind followers,' it is like looking up the history of a car: does it have a lot of recalls or poor owner experience or not. It's smart shopping.

Out of everything you said, your last paragraph, outside its opening sentence, was the most accurate & educative you said. If that had been everything, I would be complimenting your contribution. You spoiled it with everything else.

I will say again, maybe you did not mean to come off the way you did. It is hard to judge your character since this is your first post here. If so, then take my post as a learning tool as it is not my intention to offend. If you stand by the tone of your original post... then as respectfully as I am able to mean it (not very), please stick to Facebook as this is not a community-building type of helpful or educational contribution for which Glider Central is known. No, I do not a say that because you dissent from the other's opinions, different opinions are welcomed & promote healthy discussion, but I say that entirely due to the condescending & derogatory tone you chose to use... that is most unwelcome.

------------------------------------------------------

PS - Admins, if you feel I've spoken out of turn or inappropriately, please feel free to remove my post & let me know that it why. My intent is to educate, but if it has come off as a personal attack... I will abide by your judgment as I do not believe I am able to state this in any better form.

Last edited by Hutch; 08/06/19 01:04 AM. Reason: The postscript.

- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!
Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Hutch] #1420977
08/08/19 02:20 AM
08/08/19 02:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
T
the_eidolon Offline
New Member
the_eidolon  Offline
New Member
T

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
Today, I lost my ten and a half year old. The vet called me to tell me he survived and woke up. Then they called back a few minutes later to tell me he was dead. I am in pain and worse, my colony is in pain, so I am going to be as even-handed as I can be given the circumstances.

I never said anyone needed to know the biology to have a pet and I am not sure how you got that out of my post or how my tone sounds any more judgmental than anyone else's. You're entitled to your feelings. This is not my first post because it is not my first account, but I took a long break and I no longer know what email or username I used before. I've been a glider owner since 2009. The one I lost today was from my first pair and I treasured him more than you could know.

I said the individual needed to know that and have a long history of ownership if they intended to breed. I strongly believe the current standard of one year and mentoring by another breeder is not sufficient. Owning gliders for one year does not lead to any great experience or understanding, which means that those breeders are now also unable to support anyone they sell a glider to. A breeder who really cares wants to stay in touch and help the new owner take good care of the animals.

The burden of pet ownership is much lower, but it does include an earnest intent to research gliders before owning them, and then keep researching them because what we know and what is medically possible continues to evolve.

If you disagree with either of these points, then I am afraid we will find no common ground.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: the_eidolon] #1420979
08/08/19 11:26 AM
08/08/19 11:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted by the_eidolon
This is not my first post because it is not my first account, but I took a long break and I no longer know what email or username I used before.


All you needed to do was contact me either in this thread or in PM, and I possibly could have found your old account. Your posting is very familiar to me, yet I cannot put my finger on who you are.

I do know this post has been changed as I received a Moderator Notification from you at 1:31 AM regarding your original post, not the one here on the board. Apparently, you did in fact want the Administration to know your true feelings, and I will personally address them privately.

Thank you for changing what you wrote. In the future you can simply send a Private Message or continue the one I will start.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420980
08/08/19 11:32 AM
08/08/19 11:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida

What was your previous account name? Just curious.


Peggy
Critter Love
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If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: Srlb] #1420982
08/08/19 11:36 AM
08/08/19 11:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
He/she cannot remember.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: the_eidolon] #1420983
08/08/19 11:48 AM
08/08/19 11:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
I am so very sorry for the loss of your glider. Please forgive me for not saying that. I know you are heartbroken as anyone would be. What was the name of your little one?


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420988
08/08/19 07:59 PM
08/08/19 07:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,418
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,418
Wisconsin
I am very sorry for your loss.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: the_eidolon] #1420990
08/08/19 10:03 PM
08/08/19 10:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
Glider Slave
Hutch  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
Originally Posted by the_eidolon
Today, I lost my ten and a half year old. The vet called me to tell me he survived and woke up. Then they called back a few minutes later to tell me he was dead. I am in pain and worse, my colony is in pain, so I am going to be as even-handed as I can be given the circumstances.

I truly am very sorry to hear of your loss. As your pain settles, I hope you take comfort in your memories. Thank you for keeping your response civil when your emotions are raw. I personally struggle with that, so I appreciate the effort.

Originally Posted by the_eidolon
This is not my first post because it is not my first account, but I took a long break and I no longer know what email or username I used before.

My apologies for my error, though I hope you could understand how I would believe it was your first post here on GC. I wish I could have referenced your prior postings as that would make it easier to judge your intent versus my preception when you have a broader sample to feel out someone's keyboard personality.

Originally Posted by the_eidolon
I said the individual needed to know that and have a long history of ownership if they intended to breed... A breeder who really cares wants to stay in touch and help the new owner take good care of the animals.

The burden of pet ownership is much lower, but it does include an earnest intent to research gliders before owning them, and then keep researching them because what we know and what is medically possible continues to evolve.

If you disagree with either of these points, then I am afraid we will find no common ground.

On the contrary, on these two specific salient points, I do not disagree with you at all. As far as the other conclusions I drew, I do not believe you or I would benefit from a more detailed discussion right now. I do not mean that as anything against you (or even me, if I'm being thorough), but simply that playing the I said "this" because you said "that" game is hard enough to keep civil when life isn't already rubbing lemons in both our eyes.

I hope your heart & your colony find strength in each other's resilence & return to the joy of sharing life's journey soon.


- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!
Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420992
08/09/19 01:04 AM
08/09/19 01:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
T
the_eidolon Offline
New Member
the_eidolon  Offline
New Member
T

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
Thank you for your condolences. I'm still in shock when I'm not crying.

I don't know why I sound familiar. I have rarely ever commented here. Maybe you know me from another group. I am very proud of my colony and my boy, and I like to talk about him and how amazing it is to have the relationship he and I did.

My glider's name was Xor Gates, leader of the Gates Colony. His mate's name is Nor, whom I am very proud of, and know he would be too. She is a wonderful mother to their children, and in his absence, she's a good leader who's taking care of her colony by making sure they eat and the youngest ones play. She grieves in private with the eldest, Xor's adoptive son, a neutered rescue named Gordon Clark. She's strong and she's trying to keep things normal for her kids because they're young, upset, miss their dad, and don't really understand death yet. Gordo helped raise his younger siblings and though he's terribly sad, he's helping Nor as best he can because he is the eldest now. Bubblesort is another girl in the colony who helps with the little ones and acts as a friend and support for Nor. She's the sweetest possible girl you could imagine, always the first to leap on me, and always a bottomless well of cheer. Xor and Nor's children are Xnand (their eldest, a daughter, and just like her dad), Qubit (a twin, a son, and a very sweet and out-going boy), and Toffoli (a twin, a daughter, and secretly way more affectionate than her tough girl act implies). Xor was a very devoted dad who loved spending time with and teaching his children. He was so over-protective of Xnand that by the age her mom knew how to glide around corners, she could barely climb and I had to send Gordo to the top corner of the cage to go rescue her (she's a great climber and glider now despite her late start). I truly believe Xor lived as long as he did for them. He never left a mating wound, always put his colony first, helped them understand commands I gave them and how to behave, and when I would see his kids for the first time, he would come sit in my lap and just radiate pure pride and joy. It was beautiful, and I'm so lucky I had the chance to know him, work with him, and share that love with him. I never found a bird puzzle he couldn't solve, and he could handle complex commands and behaviors in a way that affirmed just how much potential sugar gliders have.

Unfortunately, he rapidly developed a dental abscess. I noticed his behavior was off and took him to the hospital and then a specialist over the course of a few hours. During that time the cyst ballooned in a way that made it visible and confirmed my suspicions about the nature of his medical problem. He had a procedure to remove teeth, drain the cyst, and use bone cement impregnated with antibiotics to firm up his jaw post-surgery, and contribute to the oral antibiotics he would have received. The vet called me to say he was alive and woke up from surgery. A few minutes after, she called back to tell me he had stopped breathing and CPR had failed. I was devastated. This same procedure had worked out very well for Bubbles. I was worried he was too old, relieved he survived, and then... you can't imagine how bad it is to get good news and then have it reversed in a matter of minutes.

I really thought he would make it be 12 years old. Right up until this, he was going strong and just so happy to be alive. He was intelligent, gentle, well-trained, and just very lovable. I will always miss him, but I'll always be grateful he was in my life, and that he left behind wonderful children.

I cried the whole time I wrote this, and then just now, Nor came up to me and started grooming me, and doing that silly thing she does where she tries to inspect the inside of my ears, because she is apparently the expert on ear cleanliness. It tickles, and I can't help but laugh, which is all she really wanted. I love that girl so much.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420993
08/09/19 01:58 AM
08/09/19 01:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
T
the_eidolon Offline
New Member
the_eidolon  Offline
New Member
T

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12
College Station, Texas, USA
KarenE, I do not recall editing my post (I probably did and I'll explain in a moment here why I wouldn't remember it). I started and I guess I must have posted a draft that I changed to be more clear, more precise on definitions, and more even-handed; I would have edited it to make sure it better reflected how I really felt and why I believed as I do than whatever was in the first draft. I work in media professionally. My second drafts are good, my first drafts are... garbage. Just garbage. I splash something down on the screen, a crude shape, and then I edit it, I mold and detail it to make sure it's what it's supposed to be. This would also be why I wouldn't remember; editing something is my natural reaction and on par with a nervous tic at this point. I edited this comment a lot before posting it. If I edited the first one, the timeline probably shows that it was very soon after posting, before I figured anyone would have read it at that hour (and before anyone had replied to it - once I see replies, I don't edit)... so just my natural pattern. I hope you won't look down on me for it. I apologize if it seems disingenuous; that isn't my intent. And why include an edit button if we're not supposed to edit something we think we could have written better?

If you want to know my true feelings, it's all there when I talk about Xor and his colony, and in this comment. This how I really feel. This is who I really am. I admit I take personal umbrage about being deemed a backyard breeder for wanting to preserve Xor's wonderful traits and spread them to other members of his species. He was old, older than the push for lineaging, so he didn't have a pedigree, but he was too exceptional to deny. I didn't want to lose the chance to preserve the amazing traits he possessed. I chose a mate much younger than he is knowing that the large age gap would reduce the risk of accidental relatedness. I am defensive about my boy. I was before he died and will only be moreso now that he's gone. I have been working hard to find lineaged future mates for his children that meet my standards for what's great about a sugar glider (the four points I listed in my original post).

If this somehow makes me disreputable, then it doesn't change how I feel about Xor and his progeny. I want to spread the joy of having gliders as family, and to improve the species' health, happiness, and domestication. I have no goal of profiting when I start to disseminate the later generations. I instead intend to use the fees to order equipment for the new owners and potentially create emergency funds for veterinary care; I want to be sure they're serious and will provide a good home, which means an investment on their part. I would rather use the cost of the glider to benefit that glider than to benefit myself. Does that make sense? I'm doing this for love, not money. I spend a lot of money on my gliders; that's what my job is for. The only way they've ever generated income is by inspiring my work (they're great at that), and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't think it's inherently bad for others to profit or for breeding to be their primary job if their process and intentions are good, it's just not what I'm doing.

I hope this is a community where someone like me belongs, but I guess after some consideration I'd be ok with being told I should stick to Facebook. Facebook has its good and bad groups - the good groups are nothing to look down on; it's people helping people by telling them both common information and personal experiences in response to their help/advice posts because we want their gliders to be happy and for their humans to experience joy being with them. Many questions have multiple correct answers and it's a matter of personal values and the specifics of the person and glider in question.

p.s. Guys... eidolon is the second definition when you search it. The one that means a ghost. I didn't even know the first definition until my username came into question because I found this word when looking for interesting synonyms for "ghost" for a writing project. I just really like the sound of the word.

Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: the_eidolon] #1420994
08/09/19 10:37 AM
08/09/19 10:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline OP
Owner
KarenE  Offline OP
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,864
LittleRock, AR USA
There is quite a bit to digest in your posts, and I think we all need to step back a minute so we can take a breath.

As far as your username, you can use whatever you wish as long as it is within our guidelines, and yours is. I'm not sure why your writing seems familiar to me either, but it does dunno You did mention you had an account here before, and I have offered more than once to help you possibly find it with no response on that subject. That is up to you. I do know you post in at least one FB group under another name which is your FB profile Call me crazy, but I simply use KarenE everywhere I go, so people don't have go guess who I am, especially in the glider community. We really like to know who we all are. The majority of us have had the same names, user or otherwise, no matter where we go since we came into gliders. Just a little background on how we roll on names wink

At this point, no post or reply is in violation of any rule, so let's go forward.


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Re: Lineaged Gliders to Hobby Breeders [Re: KarenE] #1420998
08/09/19 06:50 PM
08/09/19 06:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
Glider Slave
Hutch  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,414
Belleville, IL
Originally Posted by KarenE
As far as your username, you can use whatever you wish as long as it is within our guidelines, and yours is. I'm not sure why your writing seems familiar to me either, but it does dunno You did mention you had an account here before, and I have offered more than once to help you possibly find it with no response on that subject. That is up to you. I do know you post in at least one FB group under another name which is your FB profile Call me crazy, but I simply use KarenE everywhere I go, so people don't have go guess who I am, especially in the glider community. We really like to know who we all are. The majority of us have had the same names, user or otherwise, no matter where we go since we came into gliders. Just a little background on how we roll on names wink
Originally Posted by Shakespear
What’s [Name]? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Romeo & Juliet: Act 2, Scene 2



Originally Posted by KarenE
There is quite a bit to digest in your posts, and I think we all need to step back a minute so we can take a breath.
My Training Instructor always told us that breathing was optional. It was only for those with brains that needed oxygen. He'd go on to say that if we had any brains, we would have gone commissioned.

Last edited by Hutch; 08/09/19 06:51 PM.

- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!

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