deleted by Dancing

I have had to do some editing to some of the posts in this thread. Please keep this thread on topic, which is discussing this particular medical/genetic issues with these gliders. Please keep all personal problems/discussion off the board in either email or pms or the thread will have to be locked and potentially removed and that will be a loss to everyone.

Thank you.

Has anyone considered the possibility of environmental contributors? I didn't have time to read ALL of the above posts, but while reading them it kept occuring to me that maybe there is an environmental concern. Didn't these gliders originate from the same location? Then were bred and produced handicapped offspring? I think it would be wise to consider what the original environment might have been. Could there have been pesticides or even housecleaning chemicals, mold toxins, etc., that these gliders might have been subject to on an ongoing basis, causing them to have malformed offspring? As with humans, having a 'bad' gene does not neccesarily mean it will be passed on and with the odds of 3 out of 4 joeys being inflicted with the same sysmptoms I have to wonder if there aren't other conditions that should be considered. Now that the gliders have been sent to new homes (I believe that's what I read earlier) maybe this will be a good chance to test the environmental theory. If that were the case, chances are, any new offspring wouldn't be affected since they would be removed from the original environment and so have mom and dad. My daughter was ill for months after moving into a new apartment...we couldn't figure out what was going on. One day, a water pipe in another apartment burst and flooded my apartment. They brought in big fans, dehumidifiers, etc., but since the water came from an apt. behind mine and into mine, I started questioning what was BETWEEN the apartments and sure enough...mold EVERYWHERE!!! We moved to another apartment and my daughter fully recovered in a matter of DAYS. Anyhow, just a thought. Sorry to be so long winded!!

its genetic

the mold option was explored but dismissed when the 3rd girl was produced in a different location and different conditions. i talked to my vet about it and he was very sure that under these circumstances, mold could not be the cause. the fact that two sets in two different locations had the same disability rules out most environmental possibilities.

Ah, ok. I didn't realize they were produced in different locations. I wasn't sure mold would even be an issue, but since your vet explored that possibility I will be careful with mine since I live in the same apartment complex as before, just a different apt. I'm very curious and will be watching this thread to see what comes up.

I don't know how closely related this may be but it's worth a shot. My mother, way back when, raised large breed dogs like mastiffs and great-danes. One of her mastiffs had a few pups that exhibited the EXACT same behavior as your gliders, from the head flipping back and to the side to preferring to remain on their backs with their feet in the air. What the doc's came to the conclusion of was that they had a congenital middle ear deformity that, for whatever reason, made the dogs feel as though they were constantly upside down and falling. I never figured out exactly how that worked but apparently they always felt best upside down because that was the only position where they felt like they weren't falling and felt right-side up. I am not sure if it was their actual inner ear or the part of the brain that processes it's signals. One vet that we went to (after so many had no clue) picked up one of the pups and rocked her straight back. The dog didn't lean into it, try to flip over, or stretch out it's legs like a regular dog should. The vet knew right away what it was, told us all about it, what to expect, and how to live with it.

Congenital defects are common in dogs of any particular breed because of the inbreeding to bring out certain traits.

Sowen - that's fascinating that a similar phenotype showed up in dogs... which supports the theory that this is genetic (though how complicated it is I'm not sure!)

an inner ear problem would make perfect sense for the behavior shown in the videos... it would be interesting to find out if it is neurological (perhaps a proprioceptive nerve malfuction/formation) or if it is structural (as in the inner ear is malformed causing the semicircular canals to "reverse" gravity, if you will)

I don't mean to be morbid, but if one of these gliders were to die, a necropsy would be helpful, especially if the vet doing it was aware of the condition and theory on cause...

Sowen - do you think you could share the advice that vet gave on dealing with the puppies - as it might have some relevance on the care of these 3 poor gliders?

There were three English Mastiff pups in the litter. One had to be put down because its movements were so violent it couldn't nurse from mom or a bottle.

The other two, well, the hardest part was making it to about 3 months of age. They annoyed their mother when nursing and she would get up and leave, so they had to have supplemental bottle feedings. But bid dogs are very smart, close to that of a small child, maybe a 7 year old human or so. A lot of their behaviors we were able to train them out of. I mad a V out of wood and foam and stuck them in it to sleep. That forced them to sleep upright and kept them from flipping over. Whenever they would lay down, we would right them. And at night, they got stuck in the V. After maybe 6 months, the flipping over on the back behavior was pretty much gone. We had to use food and water bowls that were attached to a board that was big enough for the dogs to stand on when they ate. We had to do that because the head flip would shoot their food and water bowls flying across the room shooting food and water everywhere. I noticed that they did much, much less head flipping when they were leashed. I thought that was because the leash and its pull gave them a stable frame of reference. I made some heavy weighted collars for them and it really cut down on the head flipping. After about a year, they were almost normal dogs.

When they were 2 y/o, one went to live with my uncle and we kept the other. The one my uncle got was a male. When he was about 4, he went crazy and tried to kill my uncle. Keep in mind these are 230+lb dogs. He went totally nuts and attacked everything that moved. He ended up getting the dog locked in the basement and called the police. The police came along with animal control. Unfortunately, the dog had to be shot by police.

The other, the female, she lived an almost normal life until she was 9 y/o and started having seizures (common in older mastiffs). She made it a couple more years on medication until she was put down at 11.

What's more, the mother had several other normal litters with a different stud (male) before and after this litter. The stud of that litter had other normal litters before and after. The only thing I could come up with is that it was something specific about that pairing. The 2 parents were not related. We actually got the stud (a proven breeder) from a breeder in Central America. The mom came from a local breeder as a pup. So my thinking is that both parents carried recessive genes of that trait. Keep in mind, my mother was a successful breeder and there were no different environmental factors at play for this litter that weren't for countless other litters which were all totally normal.

hey, sorry i'm a little slow to respond <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

your theory is very interesting, the lack of relation is a factor but the whole issue with inbreeding is that the defects otherwise difficult to reproduce in genes will surface because there are so many repetitive genes...but an inner ear defect is something that was suggested a few times, although it was more along the lines of an inner ear infection, which i dismmissed when whisper started to display similar traits as a 2 week old joey, and her twin did not. how many puppies were in the litter? i'm curious about percentages...since our percentage is so high, 3/4, it seems like such an oddity to get so many from a recessive trait, it should have been 1/4.

this might explain a lot about their behavior, their inability to learn to use common things like a water bottle or a wheel...i can't imagine trying to run in a wheel upside down. while i don't feel corrective action needs to be taken, i would be interested in the possibility that i can make them more comfortable. i do know that they prefer hammock-like pouches to traditional pouches. i also remember that whisper would sleep bundled up hanging from a fleece vine a lot when i first got her.

is there any way to check for this defect while they are alive? xrays or something? i have to admit i would be relieved if this is the problem because i've been worried about whether their physical health might be compromised. my dimitri, though, that boy is a rock. he's a tough little cookie. i've never seen such a solid glider. tegan is a lot like him and whisper is quickly losing her fragility as she grows. i hear that beatrice has a pair of joeys ip due in early june, so we will soon find out if it is codominant or recessive...although i still can't say i condone spreading a recessive gene with effects like this. our gliders breed healthy today, but what kinds of recessive genes will pop up in the not-so-distant future? we have to remember how small our gene pool is...especially our color gene pool.

the high percentage might not be so high... since there is a small number of individuals (you said there was a total of 4 from this pairing?) it might only APPEAR to be high... assuming this is a 'normal' Mendellian recessive trait, the probability of the 2 recessive alleles coming together once is 1/4 each time... the fact there were 3 born might only be coincidence (like a family having 3 boys in a row) - the probability of it happening is low, but so low that it is improbable...

however - the likely hood it is a single recessive gene is slim and it's probably a combination of a few genes that may or may not be linked...

unfortunately there's no way to know the genetics for sure and there's no way knowing the genetics will help these babies (even if it might benefit some future animals)

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This is an example of why inbreeding is BAD

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Thought I'd make some comments on inbreeding for people to think about. It seems people naturally are quick to condemn inbreeding because of our familiarity with its ill-effects on humans. I posted this on another site, as well.

I think it's important to consider that different animals handle inbreeding differently, on a genetic level, that is. For instance, the flourishing of most parasitic fauna like human hair lice or aphids or tapeworms only requires one gravid member to produce a whole colony of healthy individuals, all continually interbreeding and producing more healthy individuals. Even animals like every single ant/bee/wasp/termite species for the most part mate with siblings over several generations (with reproductive members here and there mating with members of other colonies in the area, which to certain degree still promotes inbreeding) and produce hundreds of thousands of healthy offspring in their lifetime and have been doing so for millions of years in their existence.

Also, mice can handle (generally speaking, again) a certain amount of inbreeding moreso than humans can, for instance. The ability to handle inbreeding is a necessary asset to their very survival and continuation of their species. I believe the degree to which an organism can "handle" (I don't know what other word to use here) inbreeding may be affected by factors such as 1) the nature of the organism to exploit and populate an area of a high resources and 2) I'm guessing it's in the genes, too (i.e. the ability to handle inbreeding).

Interesting... It's amazing when you consider how physiologically different many animals often are from human beings. Many animals have evolved to supercede some of the most basic rules (:oftop Have you guys ever heard of the desert lizard species composed of entirely females, which "stimulate" each other to lay eggs, which hatch into more females? Let that sink in your brain a little! LOL. Also, female aphids will clone themselves, giving birth to exact genetic clones. In both cases aforementioned, the process of reproduction is called parthenogenesis).

Actually, having said that, as it relates to this thread, perhaps gliders can handle a little inbreeding better than we think. Out of curiosity now, are gliders considered pests in Australia? I'd imagine they are for Acacia farmers... Are they analagous to mice but for agricultural tree crops?

Relating to this thread, then, my guess is that the handicapped gliders are a result of a point mutation in the chromosomes (e.g. the point mutation of chromosome 21 in humans is the result of Down Syndrome) somewhere. Perhaps the condition is neurological, as was suggested. I also suspect that it may have something to do with the ears. There are a few possibilities that I would consider before assuming it's an inbreeding issue.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

hey mikey, you have good points, and we all know you like to play devil's advocate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i maintain that this was an issue with irresponsible breeding though, while inbreeding can be alright in some species, it's not really in others. it has to do with the diversity of the gene pool. while sugar gliders in australia may very well be more resilient when inbred, you have to remember that the pets we know and love didn't come from australia, they all came from some little islands off the coast of australia, which cuts the gene pool down quite dramatically. why do you think humans can't be inbred? the same issue--scientists have created DNA maps that suggest that humans had a bottleneck in genetic contributors at one point, likely caused by some kind of natural disaster or disease. the gene pool was cut down to something like 1000 people and grew from there...a group of scientific adams and eves.

why is it that inbreeding is bad for some species? because genes that will otherwise remain dormant or recessive and rare will start to be doubled and will manifest in the offspring. the act of inbreeding itself is not bad, if you had a pair of perfect speciments that had absolutely no genetic faults, you could breed an entire population on those two. unfortunately, such a thing is nearly impossible to find without genetic engineering. what remains is that if a genetic flaw is found, inbreeding with that line is bad. it's that simple. sometimes outbreeding is bad as well because it simply spreads the flaw to other offspring that will make it easier for the flaw to become a problem in the future. what i find interesting about this community is that if someone pops up on the boards and says "hey, my brother and sister glider had joeys a while ago, and i think their daughter is pregnant!" people will flip out. and yet...look at some of the lines major color breeders are creating on a regular basis. brothers bred to sisters...aunts to nephews...grandparents to grandchildren...and this is considered ok in the interest of the color. so, does that mean that color is more important than health? i sure hope not, although i have seen instances when a proven genetically flawed pair has simply been separated from each other and paired with other gliders, and for some reason down the line the gene shows up again. can't imagine why.

so, i agree, mikey, inbreeding itself is not bad...the results, however, in a gene pool that is not diverse, can be quite bad. we still don't know all that much about sugar glider genetics, there are a few base rules when it comes to color breeding but in all honesty we still have a lot to learn. we are getting careless though, and things are popping up that aren't good. why don't we know if gliders can eat chocolate? simply because no one wants to find out firsthand that they can't. it should be the same for gliders...we don't know for sure what inbreeding will create but do we really want to find out? unfortunately, we are.

The Special Needs forum is for

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Topics for the care of gliders with long term physical defects, including mobility, sight, and hearing impaired gliders. These topic will include housing, care, toys, pouches, and other accessories.

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Please keep discussions of breeding and genetics in the proper forum.

My bad! Mea culpa!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

awww, that's awfull, i'm glad your taking the time to take care of the little ones and they're special needs. In my opinion i don't think inbreeding is right, i think there's to many risks and just to get a pretty color, um my own opinion i'd never do it, i breed hamsters and was advised i could inbreed 1 and or 2ed daughtor with dad, Not i won't put my little ones' under risk of health issues and problems but i'm so glad to hear that you are doing something to correct and find out so it stops from happening more and it looks like you're doing a great job with the little ones good luck!

update...

beatrice has two white faced boys oop a few days ago with kiki's lion boy. one is going to a local couple that kiki knows is uninterested in breeding (he and his future cagemate will be neutered soon) and the other boy is coming down here to me. no word yet on their condition, we usually find out at around 2 or 3 weeks old. i am hoping i will be able to put him in with whisper and jasper. i will post if either boy turns out to have the condition...i doubt either will, but if they do this will be very unfortunate and very important news to relay to the glider community. all of bea's line will be at risk of passing on the gene.

[:"blue"] Several times in this thread it has been requested the topic stay, as intended, on how to care for gliders who are mentally/functionally handicapped NOT the genetics involved.

At one point the thread was even moved to Breeding because it had gone so far off topic.

Once again this thread is so far off topic someone reading to gain information on how to care for a glider would have difficulty finding what they needed.

We feel it is necessary to lock this thread at this time. Any topic relating to the genetics of this condition should be posted in the Breeding & Babies Forum.

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