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Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1039127
12/10/10 11:32 PM
12/10/10 11:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Ok Ok. True Black beauty pics for EVERYONE! smile









Chin strap really doesn't have much to do with it, it's an indicator for sure. But not a rule. Neiko is the second picture. This is his chin strap:


Allie
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1039131
12/10/10 11:48 PM
12/10/10 11:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,334
NC, USA
xoerikae Offline
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xoerikae  Offline
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NC, USA
you could always put him in tpg as a standard grey, but note that he is much darker than average.

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1039158
12/11/10 12:54 AM
12/11/10 12:54 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Meg_n_Von Offline
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Meg_n_Von  Offline
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Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Here are some pictures of my BB female:






Megan & LaVaughn

Sugar Exotics

:bb: Kira :grey: Sadie - Neal :wfb: Pip - Violet :rtmo: Logan - Charli - Tyler - Seamus :plat: Chloe - Cas :leu: Boone

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Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1039166
12/11/10 01:09 AM
12/11/10 01:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Dancing  Offline
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What does his belly look like? Is the fur there white or does it have a grey under fur to it? If his belly has the grey underfur, I stand by my opinion of him being a black beauty.

I also agree that black beauties are just a dark variation of greys. I have a little black beauty girl here that was born to two 3rd generation wfbs! I don't believe that it is a special "gene" like wfb or leu. Just a dark variation of the grey gene.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1039170
12/11/10 01:25 AM
12/11/10 01:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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sometimes gliders look darker when viewed next to a lighter one like a WF.

Beautiful glider Meg_N_Von! Definitely a BB!!!! smile


Allie
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #1041125
12/14/10 07:42 PM
12/14/10 07:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 199
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Kozi Offline
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Kozi  Offline
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Posts: 199
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
So sticking in the same post.. does anyone have an opinion about this little girl?








Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041145
12/14/10 09:11 PM
12/14/10 09:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict
xSwtxSugaX  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
It looks like she may be BB. She has that grey undertone everyone is talking about and very vivid and thick black lines. Dont take my word on that tho, Just my thoughts babbling out onto a post smile Shes flippin adorable tho!!!!


"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: xSwtxSugaX] #1041146
12/14/10 09:14 PM
12/14/10 09:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 199
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Kozi Offline
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Kozi  Offline
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Posts: 199
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: xSwtxSugaX
It looks like she may be BB. She has that grey undertone everyone is talking about and very vivid and thick black lines. Dont take my word on that tho, Just my thoughts babbling out onto a post smile Shes flippin adorable tho!!!!

Totally understandable.. to each their own, everyone will have their own opinion.. Thanks for sharing yours. <3 x3


Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: Kozi] #1041159
12/14/10 09:37 PM
12/14/10 09:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Kimberlyann Offline
Glider Lover
Kimberlyann  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Ok, I think this is all very confusing, and I don't think I am the only one...LOL

Some pics I see it is obvious. Now I have a gorgeous dark glider. Her coat is so silky, and different texture than my grey boys. Her under belly is silver, the boys are cream. She is sooo dark. I am convince that she is a black beauty. But I am not an expert. Or a breeder. Now I have taken pics of her to show, but the flash makes the pics turn out soooooo much lighter so I can't show those. She is still a joey at 5 mos old, so it could change??

I guess (black) beauty is in the eye of the beholder!


Kimberlyann

:grey: :wfb: :leu: :plat: :bb:
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: Kimberlyann] #1041167
12/14/10 09:50 PM
12/14/10 09:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kimberlyann
I guess (black) beauty is in the eye of the beholder!


No.... it's really not. 'beauty' yes, of course it is. Black beauty, not so much.

The glider posted above has all the features of a black beauty. But does not have dark facial markings.

We breed for black beauty here. So I guess my standards are higher than others'. But no I do not think that glider is one. I have strict guidelines on what classifies a BB and it's WAY over diagnosed by MANY people here.

If the glider darkens more with age, or the facial markings become more prominent, I would change my assessment. But for now. Dark classic grey.

Quote:
Some pics I see it is obvious.


If you second guess yourself. You do not have a black beauty. When they are truly BB. It's very obvious.

Last edited by Glide_Bye_Lily; 12/14/10 09:52 PM.

Allie
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041218
12/14/10 11:37 PM
12/14/10 11:37 PM

B
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
B



Okay, yes, there is a lot of debate as to whether or not you can actually breed for BB. And whether or not there is a gene to be bred for. I do know one thing to be fact...

There are FOUR defining characteristics of a BB. If you do not have ALL FOUR, your glider is NOT considered to be a black beauty:

1 - Obviously dark hands or knuckles. Can be bands or the entire back of the hand, as long as the knuckles are black.

2 - Silver/grey underbelly. Not creamy or white. But obviously grey(ish) in color.

3 - Exceptionally dark-black markings. What makes most people think their babies are BB is the stripe that runs from the tip of the tail to the forehead, and the edge of petagium but MUST include the thick black eyeliner.

4 - Complete/nearly complete chin strap. This means that the black marking under the ears either meets, or very nearly meets under the chin.

If any one of these characteristics is missing, it is my understanding that your glider is not considered to be a TRUE BB.

I went through this with some of the most experienced breeders and some of the longest standing, most respected members of this community with my first glider, Bella. While her belly is silvery-grey, and her knuckles are black - her chin strap just doesn't come quite close enough to meeting in the middle, and her eyeliner isn't nearly dark enough.

Showing pictures on a forum doesn't help a lot with these gliders in most cases. We can't see the whole glider in complete natural light, so pictures can be VERY deceiving. You, the owner, have to take the information provided and decide for yourself, or take your glider to a long-standing glider owner that has experience in determining color. Since most of the databases don't even include this information, at least not for breeding purposes, you're pretty much only checking for your own satisfaction anyway. LOL

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041220
12/14/10 11:45 PM
12/14/10 11:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
I agree with all of those except the chin strap.

In the pictures I showed. My VERY dark true BB does not have a chin strap that meets. However, just look at him.

I also champion WF black beauties. Which have all the characteristics of a BB but are obviously lacking a chin strap. For those reasons I leave chin strap out of the diagnosis. It's a helpful indicator. But not a rule.

And yes, you can breed for black beauty. Whether it is a gene or not is not the issue. You are more likely to get black beauty offspring, if one of the parents is a black beauty.


Allie
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041226
12/15/10 12:03 AM
12/15/10 12:03 AM

B
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered
B



So far you are the only one I have ever heard that totally disregards the presence/abscence of the chin strap. There are almost certainly more nay-sayers out there, I just haven't met or talked to them, YET! LOL

I'm totally not up for a huge debate, but yeah, if you are are trying to breed for something, then there HAS to be a gene for it. There isn't any solid proof of a BB gene, YET! Not saying it doesn't exist, just that nobody has seen evidence of it. Genetics 101 says that if there is no gene to carry the characteristic, then it's not genetic and you can't breed for it. I'm not in any way claiming to be a geneticist, and I in no way doubt your claim of a high number of BB's in your home (except for the whole chin strap thing), so PLEASE don't get offended of defensive. Not what I'm goin for here at all.

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041227
12/15/10 12:13 AM
12/15/10 12:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
no offensive or defensive anything here. smile

Just stating my case. smile

I guess I should not type with one hand and put more smileys in! lol

I used to be a big supporter of the chin strap theory. Until I got Neiko. He's the darkest glider I've ever seen in real life and as seen above, his chin strap doesn't come close to touching. It's thick and prominent, but not touching. Also, I've seen A LOT of gliders that have all the characteristics of BB while being a WF as well, and as we all know WF means they do not have a chin strap to begin with.

Even if something isn't a gene you can still breed for it by selectively choosing the darkest animals to pass along the color. It's how we ended up with dogs the size we have now, we took progressively smaller and smaller specimens or larger and larger specimens and bred them together for height. It wasn't that one day a chihuahua popped out of a wolf pack and there were suddenly thousands of them! lol It was selective breeding of size through a long time. The same idea can be taken with the natural dark coloring of some gliders.

I found another BB picture of a joey born here. This is Neiko's daughter and I don't have a picture but her chin strap was the same as his. This pic was taken in natural lighting too.



So she's not a BB because the chin strap didn't extend all the way under? Same question is posed for Neiko.
This pic with flash-


This without flash-



Another problem I have, is that we have a few gliders here that are very obviously classic grey with a chin strap that extends all the way under and almost touches as well. It seems to be more of a classic grey characteristic rather than exclusively BB.

This chin strap belongs to one of the twin girls in the picture with two BBs. I believe it belongs to the girl on the bottom... (forgive my bad memory)





I have to apologize if there was rudeness and/or defensiveness or anything like that implied in the way my posts were worded. I mean ZERO rudeness and/ or defensiveness. smile

...just a disclaimer

Last edited by Glide_Bye_Lily; 12/15/10 01:38 AM.

Allie
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041259
12/15/10 02:10 AM
12/15/10 02:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict
xSwtxSugaX  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
You guys are making me want a BB real bad. lol


"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #1041718
12/15/10 09:12 PM
12/15/10 09:12 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Meg_n_Von Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Meg_n_Von  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Beautiful glider Meg_N_Von! Definitely a BB!!!! smile


Thanks... wink


Megan & LaVaughn

Sugar Exotics

:bb: Kira :grey: Sadie - Neal :wfb: Pip - Violet :rtmo: Logan - Charli - Tyler - Seamus :plat: Chloe - Cas :leu: Boone

RIP David
Your life was short lived, but your memory will last forever.
Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1041771
12/15/10 11:06 PM
12/15/10 11:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,276
usa
snowbabygliders Offline
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snowbabygliders  Offline
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usa
very gorgeous megan! <3



Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! [Re: HagridsHut] #1043831
12/20/10 12:13 PM
12/20/10 12:13 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
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carolinasuggies  Offline
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C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
I am fairly certain he is a really cute standard!


Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


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