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Why all the breeding ??? #349342
07/29/07 02:57 AM
07/29/07 02:57 AM

M
Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Hi all, so I have noticed that a lot of glider parents out there are breeding and I was wondering why ?! There are so many gliders out there that need homes already, I really don't understand why there are some many people still breeding, especially newbies to the glider world. Maybe I'm missing something... dunno

By the way this is post is not at intended to offend anyone, I'm am just curious ! wink

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349353
07/29/07 03:45 AM
07/29/07 03:45 AM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Most likely because a lot of people want to experience the joy of watching a baby grow up. In my opinion, it's a completely natural thing. It's the overbreeding that's the problem. A person with a pair of gliders that occasionally has babies is one thing. A person who has countless pairs constantly breeding is quite another.

In relation, what's the different between what many have called "mills" and any of the big time breeders from right here on this board? They all breed large numbers of gliders, so why are the lesser known large scale breeders called mills while some other large scale breeders receive so much praise?

Just curious what the difference is.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349355
07/29/07 04:11 AM
07/29/07 04:11 AM

H
hockeyplayer187
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hockeyplayer187
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H



Well think of it this way, you have a friend that has a puppy mill and you have a friend that is a good responsible large breeder, which do you pick? Not to mention that theres not any breeders that I know of on this board that are as big as the glider mill in Texas (can think of name) Now Lisa at Suncoast has quite a few gliders but anyone you talk to that has one of her gliders that thier taken care of, now get a glider from a mill, there gliders are as well taken care of and most people will agree. Well here there has been many many many reports of mills selling glider joeys underage, and a breeder on this board isnt going to do that, or else they wouldnt be on this board. Everyone on here that is a "big time breeder" has more than likely been here a while and are very educated.

Now for the newbies being breeders I agree that I think they want to enjoy having thier own joey, which yes there are gliders in rescue homes but the newbies dont want a rescue they want to enjoy helping to raise a joey. This happens with every animal and it probably will never stop.

Now thats just my opinon, and your probably going to get a lot of different opinons in this post, but its an excellent question.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349380
07/29/07 07:04 AM
07/29/07 07:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Columbia SC
BKaylor74 Offline
Glider Explorer
BKaylor74  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Columbia SC
I think there's a huge difference between a large breeder and a glider mill.

At least the breeders on this board, from what I've seen and read, all seem to care a lot for their gliders. I don't know many of you, but it seems for the most part, people here take care to ensure that every glider born in their establishment is cared for and pampered before being separated from their parents and sold.

When I think of the term mill, regardless of what animal is attached to it, I imagine a warehouse of cages crammed with animals (gliders, in this case) whose sole purpose is to breed and make more gliders. Little, if any, human contact beyond the daily or weekly feeding, watering, etc. No socialization or hand-taming, no space to run and exercise or enjoy life the way they should. Their only purpose in life is to breed so their owner can profit. When I think of the term 'mill,' the picture of a very large, world-recognized ferret breeder comes to mind.

If you think about it, why are their breeders of any animal, when there are so many others of that animal out there already who are homeless, abused, starving, etc? Whether it's a dog, cat, bird, rabbit, iguana, or sugar glider? The same question can be applied to them all. When a lot of people find a particular animal most endearing, you're eventually going to have someone interested in breeding that animal. And the more popular the animal becomes, the more breeders are going to spring up.

It's sad that there's so many unwanted gliders out there. It's sad that there's so many unwanted animals in general out there. But one thing about breeding gliders is that the more people who own them, the more common they'll be, which in a way may take away from their uniqueness as a pet, but it will help in the long run when various pro-glider groups are trying to get laws and regulations passed to allow them to be kept as pets in a particular area. It makes sense, doesn't it?


~Bryan
----------------
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: BKaylor74] #349388
07/29/07 09:16 AM
07/29/07 09:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
Melissa, check out this thread I started awhile back. Pretty much the same question you asked and it got a lot of responses. Not too many of the newbies I was hoping for, though. I'd still like to know why they want so badly to jump right into breeding.

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=7&Number=323254&Searchpage=1&Main=31689&Words=Why+do+YOU+breed%3F+glidergrl1513&topic=0&Search=true#Post323254

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: glidergrl1513] #349390
07/29/07 09:24 AM
07/29/07 09:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,212
Garland, TX
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict
Mel2mdl  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,212
Garland, TX
Not just gliders, but all animals face this 'breeding' crisis. People feel it is unnatural, or unfair to their animals to fix them. All of my animals are neutered - check the link for information on dogs/cats.


Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Mel2mdl] #349409
07/29/07 10:10 AM
07/29/07 10:10 AM

K
Kitty
Unregistered
Kitty
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K



I agree definantly. It seems that the people on this board are definantly more "skilled" and capable of breeding large scale. They know what they're doing and they're not just a mill.

My puppy Duke, who is getting neutered Wendsday, came from a store here called Kickingbird Pets. They get all thier animals from breeders like the one you find on the board. Yeah, he's got a pettigree, but he was well taken care of and well loved when we got him, and every time we return there the workers all know him and remember him. Its touching really.

Heck, when i get Gliders, i dont want to breed immidiately...but i've always thought when i get a bit older i might want to raise a few joeys. But again, its the novelty of raising them and having the joy of seeing the process.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349492
07/29/07 02:06 PM
07/29/07 02:06 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Well, it concerns me because I think some people see breeding gliders as easy and not a lot of work and a way to pull in a few extra bucks.

I understand both sides of the argument on why you should or should not breed animals, so I don't want to step into that one, but I ask if you are going to breed, breed responsibly and ethically.

A sugar glider is clearly an animal that needs a LOT of care to be happy in captivity, so to me it seems that it would be hard to give this kind of care and attention unless you were a smaller scale operation. I'm not saying it CAN'T be done large scale, but you would pretty much have to dedicate your life to doing it, you wouldn't be able to work full time or do much else.

When I was looking for a third glider I talked to many breeders. A couple of the breeders I talked to asked me if I wanted to breed, and said, "Oh, it's really not a big deal. It's not extra work. And it brings me a few extra bucks to help pay for the other gliders' stuff."

That kind of attitude really frightens me...almost like the joeys were just little cute objects or stuffed animals to be sold for a buck. That really seems like breeding for the wrong reasons for me...and if you are raising joeys well, I can't see how it would NOT be extra work or money.

I don't think we're going to convert anyone to NOT breeding by reminding them how many homeless animals there are out there; rather, this will probably alienate people. Maybe we COULD stress if you are responsibly breeding, how much work having joeys, caring for joeys, and placing joeys in good homes can be, and that it really doesn't bring in much of a profit. Hopefully this will make people who are just in it for a few bucks decide not to breed.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349500
07/29/07 02:22 PM
07/29/07 02:22 PM

G
GizmosGal
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GizmosGal
Unregistered
G



My concern is not only WHY people breed but WHAT they are breeding. I am horrified when I read posts about people with gliders that were purchased from pet stores, rescued or rehomes with no known lineage, that are allowing those gliders to breed. How can you allow gliders that are possibly siblings or already inbred to breed? Why would you breed a glider that you do not know the family history of? If you are not sure that these gliders come from healthy lines, you could be allowing joeys to be brought into the world that will have health problems and short lives.

After you allow your gliders to breed, just so you can "experience joeys", what are you going to do with those joeys? Some people plan to keep the babies, which is why they breed them in the first place. If that isn't your intentions, are you prepared to keep them if a wonderful home cannot be found? I have been horrified lately to read posts in the classified section where people threaten to turn joeys loose or give them to a mill breeder because they cannot sell them. Yet these same people will allow their gliders to breed again. That is so inhumane and unresponsible.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349503
07/29/07 02:36 PM
07/29/07 02:36 PM

M
Meggelle
Unregistered
Meggelle
Unregistered
M



I think alot of the problem is the market out there of breeding pairs. I went to buy Zoey and Zander thinking that Zander was neutered. When I went to pick him up he wasn't. I still bought them though, at a lowered price, with the intention to neuter him as soon as possible. I bought him in April and went to our vet in may to see about getting him neutered. I couldn't get them in for a wellness exam for a few weeks. When I did it was still July before I could neuter him. I looked for a differnt vet, but none seemed as glider smart as the first was. So I had to wait. To be honest, I was under the impression that a gliders reproduction cycle was similiar to dogs in the way that they could only breed about twice a year. And because when i bought Zoey her last joey was 12 weeks oop I didn't think they would breed again so soon. But of course they did. I wasn't planning on getting another glider besides those two, but I wouldn't give their babies Zig and Zag up for the world. I really think that breeders should have a limit on the number of unneutered males they have. If they are allowed three breeding females then they shouldn't be allowed to have 5 unneutered males. Also I think you should have to have a license or permit or SOMETHING to sell a glider, no matter if you breed or not. If this was a requirement I'm sure the number of breeders would go down.

About the glider mills verses large breeders, I think its the quality of the animal that puts the breeder in the catagory. For example, I was looking at the Flying Fur Ranch's website (the mill in texas) out of pure curiosity. Did you know they won't sell a glider to you unless you buy five or more? A large breeder would never make that requirement. Also they say "*Breeding pairs are not pet quality animals!" To me that raises a red flag right there. Why in the world would you want, or need, to tell anyone that? It kind of stumped me too. So does that mean that they're breeding pairs are not at all tame? What kind of life is that?!

if anyone was wondering, here is the website to Flying Fur Ranch

http://www.flyingfurranch.com/index.html

Just read they first paragraphs and you'll know that something isn't right there.


Last edited by Meggelle; 07/29/07 02:42 PM. Reason: grr clicked enter to soon
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349504
07/29/07 02:38 PM
07/29/07 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
I agree with some points on this matter. I do believe all animals are being over bred these days for profit, greed, and lack of responsibility. I have a breeding pair wich will be ritred here soon, and plan to breed my wfb with my jynxie if and when they decide they want to and both are at mature breeding ages. I would love to have a few wfb and hand tame them myself if given the chance.

I know there are mills out there, and my defintion of a mill is a grossly large breeder out for nothing but profit. There is one in Texas that many know and disaprove of, I will not bash but if interested pm me. This individual does not spend quality time with joeys like a smaller scale breeder does. Mills have poor living conditions and are purely profit. Very sad!

I before my joeys have been OOP have already begun looking for their prospective home(s) and have high standards for them. I do not do not do this for money, if I did they would be sold for a heck of alot more then what they are to pay for all my time I put in them and every thing else required to make their captive lifes as happy as can be.

I think many people do breed for a joeys to experince that for them selves but it should be discouraged, and nutering is the best option to help control population of any breed of animal.I am always very leary to who my babies go home with because i worry about them being responsible in nuetering their pets as well, and that's why I am carefull in who I choose.

If you notice many breeders offer a lower price or a rebate if you nueter your male within a time period or offer low fee's to have it done before the glider is placed. That's the diffrence between many responsible breeders and one's that are not so responsible.

Sorry to ramble but their is my .02 cents smile


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349509
07/29/07 02:57 PM
07/29/07 02:57 PM

G
Ginharrison
Unregistered
Ginharrison
Unregistered
G



I really think that a majority if not all of people on this forum are responsible glider/pet owners or they would not stick around very long. People that are not responsible would not care or take the time to look or take part in these kind of knowledgable discussions.
So with that said I am new to the glider world (about 6 months now)but have had experience with dog, cats, fish, hamsters, gerbles, bearded dragons and now my suggies. I would love to have some babies and hopefully someday I will. If I do I will not make any money from them because I have a couple grandkids that are getting old enough 14 and 16 to be responsible enough to take care of them and they also enjoy them a lot. They always want to come over and visit mine. There parents are also animal lovers just like myself there mother. I am very proud of all of my kids and there pets. All of them are very responsible pet owners!!!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: BKaylor74] #349510
07/29/07 02:58 PM
07/29/07 02:58 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: BKaylor74
I think there's a huge difference between a large breeder and a glider mill.

At least the breeders on this board, from what I've seen and read, all seem to care a lot for their gliders. I don't know many of you, but it seems for the most part, people here take care to ensure that every glider born in their establishment is cared for and pampered before being separated from their parents and sold.

When I think of the term mill, regardless of what animal is attached to it, I imagine a warehouse of cages crammed with animals (gliders, in this case) whose sole purpose is to breed and make more gliders. Little, if any, human contact beyond the daily or weekly feeding, watering, etc. No socialization or hand-taming, no space to run and exercise or enjoy life the way they should.


I went to a pet expo last year and actually had the chance to meet one of the so called mill breeders out of Texas (I won't name names). I was very interested in speaking with him and seeing his gliders because of the things I've heard here about him. I really wanted to "see for myself".

He was actually extremely knowledgable about gliders and seemed to really care for them and have a great passion for them. His glider were all extremely personable and seemed to be happy and healthy and very well cared for. Somebody, whether him personally or someone at his home, had clearly nurtured these gliders.

And what really impressed me was that he wasn't pushing to make any sales at all. He was simply educating people about gliders and answering questions. He never mentioned prices or anything about making a sale until I actually asked him about it. Even then, he simply stated his prices and never tried to pressure a sale.

In addition, his prices were a little on the higher end, which is a good thing. It encourages people to give a second thought to what they're spending a large chunk of money on, and to do some research before they make a decision. That way if it seems to be a little more responsibility than they were ready for, they won't spend their money on something that they aren't sure will work out. And if they are still determined to buy a glider, then they will be more prepared by having done some research for embarking on glider ownership.

Sooooo, all in all, I have to say that by speaking with the man, observing him with the public in general, and having the chance to observe and handle his gliders, I didn't see anything out of place.

I'm neither speaking out for or against this particular breeder. I'm just stating my personal encounter with him.

So, if the issue with "mills" is because of how the gliders are housed/treated/brought up, I certainly didn't see any sign of mistreatment here. Ofcourse, I have never been to his facility, but all in all, his gliders seemed to be wonderfully cared for.

Aside from that, I thought that one of the big issues with mills was the sheer amount of glider they breed. In that respect, I'm missing the difference between the "mills" and the respected large scale breeders.

I'm not making an opinion in any case. I just find it to be interesting for personal reasons (because I've studied psychology and sociology). I'd just like to hear other people's thoughts.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #349512
07/29/07 03:06 PM
07/29/07 03:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Even people who are responsible about getting their dogs and cats neutered seem to think nothing of breeding their hamsters or gerbils. For many people, sadly, this is the pet area where sugar gliders fall. People breed them without even thinking about it or considering the consequences. Worse are the true mill breeders - people who breed them because of greed.

There are true mill breeders - who work VERY hard to promote the impulse buying of sugar gliders. These mill breeders can keep all of our rescue homes completely full - with more coming!

There has been two on-going threads on Animal Craze about these issues.

What makes a breeder a "responsible" breeder?

I think the first step is what Judie said - if you don't know the background of your gliders - DO NOT BREED THEM! If you cannot line up caring, life-time homes for your joeys, DO NOT BREED THEM!

For a long time, I've been posting in a more passive, supportive manner when new-comers arrive on GC and declare that they have a pair and are breeding, or that their pair has joeys IP. I've recently begun taking a more direct approach. I am questioning the origins of the gliders, and the purpose for wanting to breed. If these are pet store gliders, or rescues, or rehomes, or mill bred gliders - in my opinion, it is UNETHICAL to breed them for ANY reason.

These impulse breeders from people who originally were impulse buyers are part of the reason gliders are in rescue homes, and they are little better than mill breeders, in my opinion.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #349519
07/29/07 03:19 PM
07/29/07 03:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
Well said Valkyriemome! thumb


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #349534
07/29/07 04:15 PM
07/29/07 04:15 PM

D
doitall48
Unregistered
doitall48
Unregistered
D



as for me and my wife are grand kids wants a glider ans we cant aford one for each at 150 would be about 1200 the thing i want you all to know is that the gliders will not be liveing are house untell the kid knows what it is to take care of them the right way

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349550
07/29/07 04:37 PM
07/29/07 04:37 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Well, if you were just starting out and you had the option, (don't lie to look cool) if you saw a sweet little joey sitting on a table next to an old ornery abused glider that didn't trust anyone, which one would you pick?

Those of you who have had gliders for a while and know what responsibility is about would probably pick the older glider. But for someone new who wants their first glider, they may not be capable of handling a rehomed abused glider. They'd be much better suited to the little joey.

I'm not saying we should all buy joeys, I'm saying that those of you who have the facilities, the experience, and the time for older gliders should definitely take them in (if you are able). The rest of us aren't experienced enough to handle it and we need to get more used to being around easier-going gliders before we can handle a glider that needs special attention.

I really hope I'm making sense..

And it's selfish to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to have their own gliders. If there were only twenty glider owners in the world, GC would be a very tiny place.

You know what I mean. =P

I wish I could explain it better..


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349606
07/29/07 06:03 PM
07/29/07 06:03 PM

G
GizmosGal
Unregistered
GizmosGal
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: Shuttershade
And it's selfish to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to have their own gliders. If there were only twenty glider owners in the world, GC would be a very tiny place.


No one is saying that newbies should not own gliders. The concern is with all the newbies who are jumping into breeding having no clue what they are getting into. Most have not even owned gliders for any amount of time. Some START with a breeding pair and then are posting "Now what?" I don't think that a person should start researching breeding at a point when there are already joeys ip or just oop.

Responsible breeders own gliders for at least a year before they consider breeding. And before that choice is made, they do a ton of research. Do all of these people that are starting to allow their gliders to breed have any idea of the heartbreak in a canabalized joey or the exetremely difficult work involved in hand raising a joey? These things should all be carefully considered before the decision to breed is made. Most people just think it would be cool to have joeys for whatever reason and really have no idea of what is involved.

As Val clarified, pet store gliders, rescues and rehomes should NEVER be bred under ANY cincumstances! I have to say that 75% of the posts I have read lately about breeding are gliders that fall under one of those catagories.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349647
07/29/07 06:58 PM
07/29/07 06:58 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Holy moly. o_____o


I never once said that someone said newbies shouldn't be allowed..

I just said it was selfish to say so. o_o


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349665
07/29/07 07:19 PM
07/29/07 07:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I don't think it is selfish to say new owners shouldn't breed, Shutter.

It is more selfish of new owners to WANT to breed. It isn't in the best interests of the glider. Not their personal gliders, and not gliders as a species.

In fact, the only reason anyone would breed on impulse is because of selfishness or pride. If they think they are so great that they know everything, and all the bad things happen to other people, but not them, and THEY can handle breeding - that's just vanity. Or ignorance.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #349668
07/29/07 07:23 PM
07/29/07 07:23 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
I meant that new people shouldn't own gliders.. No, new people definitely shouldn't breed them.. But they can own them, can't they? That's how you learn..

Yikes. I'm never posting in one of these ever again. o__o


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349669
07/29/07 07:24 PM
07/29/07 07:24 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
..I didn't even say anything about breeding at all, looking over my posts. o__o


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349671
07/29/07 07:25 PM
07/29/07 07:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Why not? You should post - no one is jumping on you or yelling at you. We are all expressing opinions!

If new people never owned gliders then within 15 years there would be no gliders in captivity! Of course new people should own gliders. It is the breeding we were talking about.

So - basically we are in agreement!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #349675
07/29/07 07:29 PM
07/29/07 07:29 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
I'm confused.
But let's go with that.
XD

If there was no impulse breeding, there would likely be less impulse buying.

Maybe we can all make some sort of law that says that you must take some big long complicated class before you can breed sugar gliders.. Or pass some test about them, and if you don't pass, then you have to take the big long complicated class.
Or you get beheaded. (Not really. I'm trying to be funny.) XD

I think it'd do the world good, but the world doesn't want to listen. I bet lab rats are a higher priority than sugar gliders. 3/4's of the people I meet don't even know what sugar gliders are..


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349684
07/29/07 07:44 PM
07/29/07 07:44 PM

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LunaHoshino
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LunaHoshino
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L



Originally Posted By: Shuttershade
The rest of us aren't experienced enough to handle it and we need to get more used to being around easier-going gliders before we can handle a glider that needs special attention.


Not all older gliders are abused or "difficult," though... plenty of them are sweet, loving pets who simply need to be rehomed due to their owner's circumstances changing. Both of my current gliders and Kadabra's late mate are older gliders-- Abra and Kadabra were 5 when I adopted them, and Aphrodite was 3. All of them were wonderful animals with no behavioral issues whatsoever. In fact, I'm actually glad I got older gliders because they were already tame and accustomed to people when I got them. It took me less than two weeks to bond with Abra and Kadabra, and at Kadabra's last wellness check the vet told me that Kadabra was the sweetest suggie he'd ever dealt with.

So older gliders can be just as easy-going as joeys. smile

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349698
07/29/07 08:01 PM
07/29/07 08:01 PM

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HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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Originally Posted By: Shuttershade


Maybe we can all make some sort of law that says that you must take some big long complicated class before you can breed sugar gliders.. Or pass some test about them


LOL! I feel that way about humans breeding as well!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349700
07/29/07 08:02 PM
07/29/07 08:02 PM

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TheGliderPouch
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TheGliderPouch
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T



roflmao

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #349717
07/29/07 08:28 PM
07/29/07 08:28 PM

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Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
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Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome


It is more selfish of new owners to WANT to breed. It isn't in the best interests of the glider. Not their personal gliders, and not gliders as a species.

In fact, the only reason anyone would breed on impulse is because of selfishness or pride. If they think they are so great that they know everything, and all the bad things happen to other people, but not them, and THEY can handle breeding - that's just vanity. Or ignorance.


Well said ! clap thumb clap

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349741
07/29/07 09:07 PM
07/29/07 09:07 PM

G
Ginharrison
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Ginharrison
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Question for everyone that are posting about this subject.

1.When, where and why did you get your first glider?

2. Then how, why and when did you decide that you new enough about Sugar Gliders to go ahead and breed them?

Thanks just curious!


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349745
07/29/07 09:10 PM
07/29/07 09:10 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
I do not yet have my first sugar gliders because I am trying desperately to be responsible and learn about them first.

I will never breed sugar gliders because I am too little to handle the responsibility and I have no reason to ever want to. When I get pets, I am satisfied with them and thankful I have them (usually. LOL!). I do not wish to put their lives/lifespans at risk just to make a couple extra bucks.

Now, accidental babies are different. Never again will I ask my brother to sex my rabbits for me. =(


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349747
07/29/07 09:12 PM
07/29/07 09:12 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
..And that post about older gliders wasn't even about older gliders at all, really.. It was about abused, rehomed gliders that are ornery and don't trust anyone.

Lol, I hate having to explain things that don't have much relevance to the big picture..

Many rehomes are ornery and don't trust anyone. Not all, not most, but many.

=/ I'd keep going but I'm still in a bad mood over losing my paycheck. Sorry.


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349749
07/29/07 09:17 PM
07/29/07 09:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
I"ll go first!!!! If some one don't post before me roflmao

1. Got my first glider 9 1/2 yrs ago

2. She was an impulse buy shakehead

3. I got her because I fell in love with her face!!

When did I feel I was capable to have breeding gliders you ask? Honestly 5 yrs later!!!

I agree, it's not something to jump into right away!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #349755
07/29/07 09:30 PM
07/29/07 09:30 PM

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LindsayAnnG
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LindsayAnnG
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"And it's selfish to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to have their own gliders. If there were only twenty glider owners in the world, GC would be a very tiny place." -shuttershade

no one here said NEWBIES SHOULDNT OWN GLIDERS.. They said newbies shouldnt BREED gliders.. And they SHOULDNT. People come on here, and they're like, "I got my first glider and she is so cute. I am feeding her raisins and monkey chow. Is this good? I am going next month to get a boyfriend for her, i would love to see the cute little babies"

Now, at this point, these people think that they have a glorified hamster and having babies wouldnt be a big deal. The worse part is when you TELL them that if they get a boy, they really should neutered for various reasons, their response is, "well, i will think about it, but i really want some babies"

Honestly, if the only reason you are breeding gliders is because you
1. cant afford a neuter
2. just want to see baby gliders
3. want to make money

then you should re-think it. Those are ALL selfish reason, INCLUDING JUST WANTING TO SEE BABIES. People who dont even know what to feed their gliders are putting their gliders at risk, and their babies just because they want to have cute joeys in their house.

And obviously as most have already said, these gliders who belong to the newbies are from pet stores, or they got them from friend. And when you tell them that the reason they shouldnt breed is because they dont know the lineage, they just discount that idea as people just being difficult because they are new..

I think there should be a sticky in breeding and babies forum about the dangers of inbreeding and breeding rescues, rehomes, and pet store gliders. Maybe SHOW a one legged glider that came from an inbred glider family, or show what a cannibalized joey could be like. Post real stories about a glider who was overbred and became ill or died from it

There will NEVER be a day where you will have to pass a test in order to become USDA certified, we cant even get the USDA to change the minimum requirements for breeding animals.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349758
07/29/07 09:31 PM
07/29/07 09:31 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
Question for everyone that are posting about this subject.

1.When, where and why did you get your first glider?

2. Then how, why and when did you decide that you new enough about Sugar Gliders to go ahead and breed them?

Thanks just curious!



I'll go next.

1. I got my first glider, oh, I think close to 5 years ago from a lady who posted the glider for FREE on Craigslist! Why? Because I had recently (within a month) learned what they are (actually I think I was watching the E! channel and heard about Paris Hilton having one) and did some research and felt that they were right for me. When I saw that ad for "free", you better believe I snatched that glider up before anyone could blink! I drove to pick my glider up an hour after she posted it!

2. I didn't "decide" to breed, the gliders decided. Actually, I had picked up a pair who unbeknownst to me, had some buns in the oven!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349764
07/29/07 09:34 PM
07/29/07 09:34 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
o____o I really wish people would read all of the posts in a convo before flipping out over it..

I'm out.
Adios!
=)


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349765
07/29/07 09:34 PM
07/29/07 09:34 PM

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LindsayAnnG
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LindsayAnnG
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oh yea..

I got my first glider about 6 months ago. He was somewhat of an impulse buy, i saw a girl in a petstore with 2 sugar gliders.. i LOVED them and asked where she got them, i asked her questions and then went home and did some research (although i didnt find this site until after i got my glider) so about 3 months later, i was in the petstore that sold gliders and i had some extra money in my bank account.. I talked to the girl in the small animal department and bought him on the spot along with a cage.

I just LOVED the suggie face and the way that they actually bond to their owners.

I never decided to breed, and never will. If anything i will work with a rescue. I have 5 gliders now, and all are rescues or rehomes - unwanted gliders. I think that unless you are working to better the breed, and can keep the number of babies to the amount that you KNOW you can sell, then dont breed.. I see newbies on here who have thier FIRST pair of joeys and cant even find a home for them.. then it usually ends up in them giving them to any home with $200 so they can get rid of them before they get too big - usually because the momma is pregnant again.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349766
07/29/07 09:34 PM
07/29/07 09:34 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



who's flipping out?

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349768
07/29/07 09:36 PM
07/29/07 09:36 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG

Honestly, if the only reason you are breeding gliders is because you
1. cant afford a neuter
2. just want to see baby gliders
3. want to make money


What then, would you consider a good reason to breed gliders?
There are large scale breeders here who are praised, and obviously make great money from breeding gliders. What is the reason that they breed gliders that is considered okay?

We certainly don't NEED gliders being mass produced when there are so many in rescue homes. So why is it okay for large scale breeders to breed SO MANY and not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies?

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349772
07/29/07 09:39 PM
07/29/07 09:39 PM

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LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



I am not going to comment on the large scale breeders because thats really not what this post is about, but i can tell you that you will not find a post from me praising them

I will say that atleast one of the big GOOD breeders are able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349778
07/29/07 09:44 PM
07/29/07 09:44 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



I'm not differentiating between what is considered a good or a bad large scale breeder. They are all breeding on a large scale regardless of whether or not they are considered "good".

What I'm wondering, is why it's okay for anyone to breed on such a large scale, but it's not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies.

If you're saying that it's okay for large scale breeders to breed so many because they are "able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow", then wouldn't that be considered breeding for profit? Which is a reason you listed as being a bad reason for breeding?

And don't you think that a person who only has one pair of gliders that has babies can find a home for them just as easily as the breeders who have multitudes of babies?

I think it would be easier to find a home for one or two babies than a plethora of them.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349783
07/29/07 09:48 PM
07/29/07 09:48 PM

G
glide2kali
Unregistered
glide2kali
Unregistered
G



Hold up there Lindsay, I am a "newbie" and I am planning on breeding and who are you to assume that all newbies like me don't know what they are doing and that their gliders came from a petshop and that we don't know what to feed them or what the cost of neutering is and that we think our gliders are glorified hampsters?
Your really out there on this one. Give some credit to those of us who (like you) have fallen in love with gliders and have done the research to find out just what is needed to care for them and, there is more to breeding than just considering lineage.
Kali
Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
"And it's selfish to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to have their own gliders. If there were only twenty glider owners in the world, GC would be a very tiny place." -shuttershade

no one here said NEWBIES SHOULDNT OWN GLIDERS.. They said newbies shouldnt BREED gliders.. And they SHOULDNT. People come on here, and they're like, "I got my first glider and she is so cute. I am feeding her raisins and monkey chow. Is this good? I am going next month to get a boyfriend for her, i would love to see the cute little babies"

Now, at this point, these people think that they have a glorified hamster and having babies wouldnt be a big deal. The worse part is when you TELL them that if they get a boy, they really should neutered for various reasons, their response is, "well, i will think about it, but i really want some babies"

Honestly, if the only reason you are breeding gliders is because you
1. cant afford a neuter
2. just want to see baby gliders
3. want to make money

then you should re-think it. Those are ALL selfish reason, INCLUDING JUST WANTING TO SEE BABIES. People who dont even know what to feed their gliders are putting their gliders at risk, and their babies just because they want to have cute joeys in their house.

And obviously as most have already said, these gliders who belong to the newbies are from pet stores, or they got them from friend. And when you tell them that the reason they shouldnt breed is because they dont know the lineage, they just discount that idea as people just being difficult because they are new..

I think there should be a sticky in breeding and babies forum about the dangers of inbreeding and breeding rescues, rehomes, and pet store gliders. Maybe SHOW a one legged glider that came from an inbred glider family, or show what a cannibalized joey could be like. Post real stories about a glider who was overbred and became ill or died from it

There will NEVER be a day where you will have to pass a test in order to become USDA certified, we cant even get the USDA to change the minimum requirements for breeding animals.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349796
07/29/07 10:21 PM
07/29/07 10:21 PM

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Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
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Relax Kali, I'm sure Lindsay didn't mean to offend anyone.

My honest opinion is that MOST people should NOT breed ANYTHING ! WE have numerous animals in our house(check my sig) and all are spayed or neutered or kept in same sex groups. Most of them are also rescues or re-homes. I personally think there are way too many animals that need forever homes so why are so many people making more. My boyfriend and I are so in love with all of our critters that we rarely spend time away from them if possible. I don't think breeding is ok just because you love the animal, In fact in many cases breeding can stress out the animal.

Too bad Bob Barker retired ! tounge

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349819
07/29/07 10:50 PM
07/29/07 10:50 PM

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GizmosGal
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GizmosGal
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
Question for everyone that are posting about this subject.

1.When, where and why did you get your first glider?

2. Then how, why and when did you decide that you new enough about Sugar Gliders to go ahead and breed them?



My first glider was a male rescued from the humane society about 5 years ago. After that I rescued a few more gliders, which I never allowed to breed.

I owned gliders for almost 3 years before I decided to start breeding. My reasoning is because there are no breeders here in the NorthEast. The only way to get a glider here is to have one shipped from a breeder, or pay $350 for an untamed, possibly inbred, unhealthy glider from a pet store. I wanted to be able to provide people with affordable, healthy, sweet joeys. When I did decide to breed, I did not just start throwing my existing males and females together to experience joeys. I selectively purchased gliders with great lineage and history of good health in their lines. I do have many gliders here that do not breed. Most of them are because I do not know their history. I also have gliders here that I did purchase to breed. Some on them have been retired without ever getting a joey from them because they have decided that they do not want to be parents and cannibalize their joeys. I respect their choice and have placed them in a non-breeding situation. A partially eaten joey is a horrifying thing to discover in the bottom of the cage.

Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
There are large-scale breeders here who are praised, and obviously make great money from breeding gliders.


I find that comment almost humorous. I could be considered a large scale breeder, as I do have almost 20 pairs of gliders that produce. I am deeply in the red and will be for many years. Breeding healthy, well-documented lineage gliders is very costly. Besides the initial expense of the animals, cages, toys, wheels, pouches, etc., there is also the weekly food bill, which exceeds the amount of money that most people spend on glider food in 6 months. There is no "great money" in breeding. I have a job outside of the home just to support my glider addiction.

When people start breeding thinking that they are going to make money, they are sadly disillusioned. If breeding is done correctly, there is little to no profit. That is why it is so sad to see them start breeding for that purpose. By the time they realize that it is not possible, they are dumping their gliders.

Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
So why is it okay for large scale breeders to breed SO MANY and not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies?


Again, no one is saying that pet owners should not breed. We are just asking that before they make the decision to breed, that they research and know what they are getting into. Also, that they are prepared to keep joeys that are not sold, hand raise a joey that is rejected, retire any parents that canabalize their joeys and that they do NOT breed animals with unknown lineage.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349843
07/29/07 11:39 PM
07/29/07 11:39 PM

S
sugardaisy
Unregistered
sugardaisy
Unregistered
S



hey first...Bob Barker retired?...when did this happen?

and second i just wanted to say that i am a newbie. actually i have been researching gliders for the past 4+ months and just recently found my first that i want. i was not about to just take any thing once i became informed! My baby girls have to be shipped because there are not any to purchase. the closest is 7 hours away. i have spent countless hours reading and looking up information.

The reason i got hooked on gliders is because i was in a pet store 4+ months ago and saw these cutest little things and had no idea what they were. They seemed very far from content and happy and i asked if i could buy them...mainly because they did not seem to be in a comfortable place. The pet store owner told me that they were mean and she could not sell them. I talked to her for about 2 hours and she could not answer any of my questions. it was not until i got home and looked them up that i found out why they were so sad and mean. She was feeding them hamster food! nothing but dry corn,nuts,and pellets. They had no pouch!! they were forced to sleep in a wooden box...NOT ONE TOY! not even one in the cage. When i found out what these little ones needed to be happy i was horrified that these two were made to suffer!! NO wonder they were grumpy!!! I went back and tried to buy them again and again she would not let me. I guess it is for the best because although i could give them a wonderful home i want one that will bond to my family. I dont know if the two she had could bond after being treated so poorly for so long.

As for breeding i agree that there are far to many be mass produced. I dont know if i will ever get a male. that would require more research and thought. I do think that a newbie can be informed and have the knowledge necessary...if they are like me and invest the time and energy required to do what is right for the sugars. I wanted to be sure i was ready that is why it has taken me so long to finally pick my girls


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349847
07/29/07 11:48 PM
07/29/07 11:48 PM

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HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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Originally Posted By: GizmosGal
Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
[quote=HelloSugar] There are large-scale breeders here who are praised, and obviously make great money from breeding gliders.


I find that comment almost humorous.


I find it suprising that you find it humorous. There most definitely ARE people who are making lots of money off of gliders. I'm not going to name names, but I know of a couple of people who are making their entire living off of gliders. Meaning, they make enough money to support themselves without having to work an actual job. That's profit, and it's very real.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

I could be considered a large scale breeder, as I do have almost 20 pairs of gliders that produce. I am deeply in the red and will be for many years.


I don't know you or your situation, but your situation does not pertain to everyone. There are people who profit from gliders, even though you don't.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

When people start breeding thinking that they are going to make money, they are sadly disillusioned.


Someone with one or two pairs is not going to make a lot of money, obviously. But again, without naming names, there ARE people who turn a profit.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal
Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
So why is it okay for large scale breeders to breed SO MANY and not okay for anyone else to let their pair have a couple of babies?


Again, no one is saying that pet owners should not breed.


I did not say that anyone said that.

The point I'm trying to illustrate here, is that so many people on this board preach about how gliders should not be bred by the average person, but then turn around and give praise to people who are breeding LOTS of gliders.

And in the same respect, some large scale breeders get labeled "mills" while other large scale breeders are put on a pedestal. Funny how the so called "mills" are people who aren't on this board to defend themselves and their practices.

I love this board, but it just seems like people get a little "holier than thou". And it discourages many people from even posting on this forum. I didn't even start posting for a year after I was coming here.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349862
07/30/07 12:04 AM
07/30/07 12:04 AM

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GizmosGal
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GizmosGal
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: HelloSugar

I find it suprising that you find it humorous. There most definitely ARE people who are making lots of money off of gliders. I'm not going to name names, but I know of a couple of people who are making their entire living off of gliders. Meaning, they make enough money to support themselves without having to work an actual job. That's profit, and it's very real.


I am not saying that it is not possible to turn a profit breeding gliders. There are many mill breeders that are making a living breeding gliders. I guess it would be a matter of opinion how many breeding pairs you can have before you are considered a mill. I do not know of a single "large scale breeder" who is making their entire living off of breeding. The few that I can think of that fit that catagory, that do not work outside the home, have husbands who finacially support them. They may turn a small profit breeding their gliders, but certainly not enough to be considered "great money" and could not make a living doing so.

Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
The point I'm trying to illustrate here, is that so many people on this board preach about how gliders should not be bred by the average person, but then turn around and give praise to people who are breeding LOTS of gliders.


I have never seen anyone telling the "average" person that they shouldn't breed. Only to research before they start and not to breed gliders they do not know the lineage of. Do you feel that it is ok to put a male and female together that you have no history of and allow them to breed?

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349887
07/30/07 12:27 AM
07/30/07 12:27 AM

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HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

I am not saying that it is not possible to turn a profit breeding gliders. There are many mill breeders that are making a living breeding gliders.


When you said that you found my comment humorous, and that "There is no great money breeding gliders", that sounded very much like what you were saying.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

I do not know of a single "large scale breeder" who is making their entire living off of breeding.


Just because you don't know of one doesn't mean there aren't any. I have met a couple.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

The few that I can think of that fit that catagory, that do not work outside the home, have husbands who finacially support them.


One of them is a man, and he doesn't have a husband supporting him. His wife works together with him in his glider business. They make their living stricly off gliders, no outside source of income.

Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

They may turn a small profit breeding their gliders, but certainly not enough to be considered "great money" and could not make a living doing so.


By great money, I don't mean getting rich, but definitely a good profit. And yes, there ARE people who make a living from gliders.


Originally Posted By: GizmosGal

I have never seen anyone telling the "average" person that they shouldn't breed.


Oh I have seen it numerous times!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349890
07/30/07 12:29 AM
07/30/07 12:29 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Lol!

That's all I can say!

XD


Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349915
07/30/07 12:53 AM
07/30/07 12:53 AM

G
GizmosGal
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GizmosGal
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G



Originally Posted By: HelloSugar

When you said that you found my comment humorous, and that "There is no great money breeding gliders", that sounded very much like what you were saying.


I am sorry, I only meant for the "average" breeder and most large scale breeders. The only people that I am aware of that make a living on breeding have 100-200 pairs. I consider them to be more than just "large scale" breeders.

You avoided my question, though...Do you believe it is acceptable for people to breed gliders with unknown lineage?

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349922
07/30/07 01:04 AM
07/30/07 01:04 AM

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Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
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Ok, enough arguing, you all have gotten a little off topic and it seems there are a few that just want to argue, if that is true please take it to Pms. I have personally learned from being a part if this forum that you can NOT change anyones minds so stop trying.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349934
07/30/07 01:18 AM
07/30/07 01:18 AM

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LindsayAnnG
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LindsayAnnG
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"If you're saying that it's okay for large scale breeders to breed so many because they are "able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow", then wouldn't that be considered breeding for profit? Which is a reason you listed as being a bad reason for breeding?"

I am not saying that its OK for large scale breeders just because they can sell the amount of gliders that they raise.. I'm saying that ATLEAST they can do that, the mill breeders breed sooo many that the ones who are less desirable or deformed ones get neglected until they die, ATLEAST the bigger "well known and loved breeders" do not do that. DO i condone such large scale breeding? Thats for another post. That is too far off topic, but if you want to talk about it more, PM me and i will happily tell you my stance on large scale "accepted" breeders.

"Hold up there Lindsay, I am a "newbie" and I am planning on breeding and who are you to assume that all newbies like me don't know what they are doing and that their gliders came from a petshop and that we don't know what to feed them or what the cost of neutering is and that we think our gliders are glorified hampsters?
Your really out there on this one. Give some credit to those of us who (like you) have fallen in love with gliders and have done the research to find out just what is needed to care for them and, there is more to breeding than just considering lineage.
Kali"

I am definitely NOT out there on this one. Those who are LIKE ME fell in love with gliders and decided to give their pets a loving home and NOT breed. You are not like me because you, for one reason or another decided you want to breed. I am not going to judge you as a person as to the reasons why you want to breed, but i am allowed to give my opinions. Also, i dont know how soon you PLAN on breeding, but that plays a big factor as to whether or not you fall into the category which i explained above..

If i was to explain everything there is to be concerned about when breeding outside of lineage, my post would hav been pages long. I was just saying a few examples WHY newbies shouldnt breed.

Even if you have read and DONE everything, you are still in no way experienced enough with just the general care of sugar gliders.. really, take everything you have read, and multiply that by 1000 and that is how many questions you will have in the first 6 months of having sugar gliders.. then when you throw breeding into the mix, you are asking for issues..

Actual sugar glider ownership experience is the only way to become a knowledgable breeder, and theres no ways around that. You need to learn things about situations, problems, illness, behaviors that you can not read about.




Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349939
07/30/07 01:29 AM
07/30/07 01:29 AM

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HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



I by NO means just want to "argue". My intention in commenting on this topic is to address the bias regarding breeders. Nor am I making an attempt to change anyone's mind.

I usually do speak up when I think something is unjust. However, if it's just going to spark flames rather than intelligent conversation, I will refrain from addressing such sore subjects, regardless of how valid they are.


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349946
07/30/07 01:44 AM
07/30/07 01:44 AM

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ErinA
Unregistered
ErinA
Unregistered
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I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with Lindsay. Breeding is difficult to find a good reason for when you consider all the homeless gliders. I also don't see that whether you are a newbie or a glider veteran is of much significance. There is still such a shortage of good homes. If you have one pair, and you want to have ONE baby (or set of babies) that will all remain together as a colony and after the one or two, everyone gets neutered, fine. Then babies will have a good home and you can experience the joy of a raising a joey. But there is no such thing as having an occasionally breeding pair. Animals will breed as they wish. If you were to separate them when you don't want to breed, they would suffer from the separation from their mate. It's just cruel. Anyone who is registered on this forum has an infinite amount of information available to them. It is inconceivable that they would be oblivious to the overpopulation and lack of decent homes. There really isn't such a thing as responsible breeding. If you live in a state that has no overpopulation problem, find a state that does, and adopt from a rescue. There are enough homeless gliders here in Texas to put a few in every good home out there. Help a glider who is already living, and doing so in misery, find a home where it can know love.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #349956
07/30/07 02:35 AM
07/30/07 02:35 AM

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LizIvey
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LizIvey
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Back to the question of when did we get sugars and why
...
I got my first, Kiwi, in November, from an individual breeder. he was living proof that buying from a very small scale breeder is not always best. he was wild. ( and yes he did pass away... the reason why does not belong here.)

I got him after almost 6 months of research, for the simple fact that I liked sugar gliders and felt prepared. I spent over $1000 on cage and setup alone, I am not saying this is necessary but I do want all to know that I was definitely prepared.
I bought a female in february and they became a pair. they did have joeys.

and for the discussion...
I do have a single breeding pair, but am I considered a breeder? They have only 1 joey at a time, no more than 3 times per year. I also am trying to provide these great creatures to an area of the country where they are far and few between. I spend countless hours of my days feeding, socializing and just ENJOYING them!
also, in any case if the joey were to not sell,I would keep it forever. no exceptions.
Is this bad reasoning?
Am I wrong to allow a pair to breed ( and yes I do know everything necessary) to allow others to enjoy this amazing species that everyone here loves so dearly?
Am I wrong for charging $150? I do spend around $100 per month on food etc. per cage, and my gliders have REGULAR vet checks. The joeys are socialized extensively, I guarantee that there are very few joeys who receive more attention. Do I make a profit? hardly. The money will just go to buying the gliders new things.
Yes I do enjoy the experience of having joeys. Is that wrong? Am I to be considered a "bad" breeder based on the fact that I enjoy watching the joeys develop? It honestly will be a sad decision if the male does eventually need to be neutered for any reason, but I will not hesitate to do so.

I am not trying to sound sarcastic here, I am just a little confused by the standards by which people judge breeders. Not many newbies want rescues. there is nothing wrong with them having joeys from a breeder, often the next step after getting accustomed to their joey is getting rescues. I did this, my first gliders came from breeders and now I have a rescue pair. Can we reasonably expect a person who knows the extra responsibility associated with rescues to forego the instant gratification associated with obtaining a 8 week oop joey? dealing with a pitbull biter or an SM glider is not something most people want much less NEED to do. most people will not tolerate that type of behavior. It is a sad statistic, how many "unwanted" rescues there are. But the same can be said of any species, and until a working NATIONWIDE system of railroads, rescue homes, and adoptive homes is established, the breeding cycle will continue and the rescues will continue to be shunned.

lol this is the longest post I've ever made ya'll! sorry if it steps on any toes, I promise that isnt the intent... my mother does say I can argue with a mile post so take that into your consideration.ha! grin

Last edited by LizIvey; 07/30/07 03:00 AM. Reason: because I left out a whole lot of totally unnecessary stuff!
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350014
07/30/07 09:25 AM
07/30/07 09:25 AM

G
glide2kali
Unregistered
glide2kali
Unregistered
G



You ARE judging me and your full of yourself. Your just here to argue with anyone and everyone like usual. I'm out...
Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
"If you're saying that it's okay for large scale breeders to breed so many because they are "able to sell the amount of gliders that they grow", then wouldn't that be considered breeding for profit? Which is a reason you listed as being a bad reason for breeding?"

I am not saying that its OK for large scale breeders just because they can sell the amount of gliders that they raise.. I'm saying that ATLEAST they can do that, the mill breeders breed sooo many that the ones who are less desirable or deformed ones get neglected until they die, ATLEAST the bigger "well known and loved breeders" do not do that. DO i condone such large scale breeding? Thats for another post. That is too far off topic, but if you want to talk about it more, PM me and i will happily tell you my stance on large scale "accepted" breeders.

"Hold up there Lindsay, I am a "newbie" and I am planning on breeding and who are you to assume that all newbies like me don't know what they are doing and that their gliders came from a petshop and that we don't know what to feed them or what the cost of neutering is and that we think our gliders are glorified hampsters?
Your really out there on this one. Give some credit to those of us who (like you) have fallen in love with gliders and have done the research to find out just what is needed to care for them and, there is more to breeding than just considering lineage.
Kali"

I am definitely NOT out there on this one. Those who are LIKE ME fell in love with gliders and decided to give their pets a loving home and NOT breed. You are not like me because you, for one reason or another decided you want to breed. I am not going to judge you as a person as to the reasons why you want to breed, but i am allowed to give my opinions. Also, i dont know how soon you PLAN on breeding, but that plays a big factor as to whether or not you fall into the category which i explained above..

If i was to explain everything there is to be concerned about when breeding outside of lineage, my post would hav been pages long. I was just saying a few examples WHY newbies shouldnt breed.

Even if you have read and DONE everything, you are still in no way experienced enough with just the general care of sugar gliders.. really, take everything you have read, and multiply that by 1000 and that is how many questions you will have in the first 6 months of having sugar gliders.. then when you throw breeding into the mix, you are asking for issues..

Actual sugar glider ownership experience is the only way to become a knowledgable breeder, and theres no ways around that. You need to learn things about situations, problems, illness, behaviors that you can not read about.




Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350061
07/30/07 10:40 AM
07/30/07 10:40 AM

E
ErinA
Unregistered
ErinA
Unregistered
E



Lets be nice, now. I don't think anyone wakes up and looks for a way to argue with people. This is a very heated topic. Let's conduct this discussion for the purpose of educating others and ourselves. You can't learn from this if you don't consider the opinions of others.

People are very passionate about this because they've seen the result of the overpopulation of gliders and lack of education. Therefore, for the purposes of understanding where they are coming from, I would suggest that everyone who wants to breed visit a rescue. Volunteer there for a month or so. Just clean cages and help socialize gliders so they can go to good homes. Get to know how these people spend their daily lives. Taming a rescue is a lot of work. A good rescuer will do a lot of that for you so that they have a chance of finding a home. If you spend time working with a rescue, and you still want to breed, knowing that you will be the competition that keeps these gliders from finding home, then at least you are doing so in an educated manner.

You have a point about how newbies don't want to start with a rescue. They can be trying. But also consider that not all rescues are wild or ill. I adopted my girls from a rescue. They landed there when their owner became terminally ill and could no longer give them adequate attention. They came to me sweet as pie already. Every rescue has a different story, and often times, it's not one of abuse and neglect.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350074
07/30/07 10:57 AM
07/30/07 10:57 AM

K
Kali_Goddess
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Kali_Goddess
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: Melissa2721
[quote=ValkyrieMome]

It is more selfish of new owners to WANT to breed. It isn't in the best interests of the glider. Not their personal gliders, and not gliders as a species.


In that line of reasoning, isn't it kind of selfish to have them at all? You could argue that they are wild animals and we are selfish to try and make pets of them?

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350090
07/30/07 11:22 AM
07/30/07 11:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,234
Tarpon Springs, FL
mattysmom Offline
Glider Guardian
mattysmom  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,234
Tarpon Springs, FL
This topic keeps popping up every few weeks or months. Why? For the sake of argument and a chance to be rude? I know we all have gliders' happiness at heart and mean well and you have good points that apply to gliders, dogs, cats and have we forgotten children? But this is a free country. If people who own pets would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems. If people who have children would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems in this world either. Can we keep this forum "nice?"


Moira & Matty & my zoo
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: mattysmom] #350105
07/30/07 11:43 AM
07/30/07 11:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Melissa2721
Ok, enough arguing, you all have gotten a little off topic and it seems there are a few that just want to argue, if that is true please take it to Pms. I have personally learned from being a part if this forum that you can NOT change anyones minds so stop trying.


Thank you Melissa, you are correct. A great portion of this topic is a healthy discussion which has been great. There are a few that are walking the line and some that just crossed it. It seems to be the same people every time a debate/discussion comes up, enough is enough. Stop forcing your beliefs on someone else, stop the name calling. If you feel you can't, do not post in these posts. If you continue to post like that, you will find yourself on the other side of the fence where you will not have the option to post anymore. How many times do Admins, mods, and members have to ask for people to stop, it gets old an annoying. Enough is enough already, it will not be tolerated anymore. Thank you for all those who have kept this discussion friendly, it is much appreciated.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: mattysmom] #350110
07/30/07 11:49 AM
07/30/07 11:49 AM

K
Kali_Goddess
Unregistered
Kali_Goddess
Unregistered
K



Hmm.. I don't think anyone has said anything not nice. I think an intelligent debate on an obviously important subject is worthwhile. There may be people who aren't posting, but may learn some things they didn't know just by following these threads. I spend a lot of time lurking and I have learned a lot that way. We may not always agree, but that doesn't mean an exchange of ideas has to be hurtful.

My earlier post wasn't meant to mean (if taken that way, I apologise). Just musing where we draw the line. There are people arguing it is selfish to breed because you want the joy of raising a joey. There are other people who would argue it is selfish to have exotic pets at all. Of course we all want what's best for our gliders, just wondering where people personally draw that line.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: mattysmom] #350116
07/30/07 12:01 PM
07/30/07 12:01 PM

G
Ginharrison
Unregistered
Ginharrison
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: mattysmom
This topic keeps popping up every few weeks or months. Why? For the sake of argument and a chance to be rude? I know we all have gliders' happiness at heart and mean well and you have good points that apply to gliders, dogs, cats and have we forgotten children? But this is a free country. If people who own pets would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems. If people who have children would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems in this world either. Can we keep this forum "nice?"


Very Well put! It's like beating your head against a brick wall!! These kind of post will never be resolved to the satisfaction of anyone. Perhaps it's the full moon! Hey that's a good one to check into. See how many times this topic was brought up when it was a full moon? It's almost as bad as discussing religon! need_hug

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350119
07/30/07 12:07 PM
07/30/07 12:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 210
Ohio
S
SpikenPea Offline
Glider Explorer
SpikenPea  Offline
Glider Explorer
S

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 210
Ohio
Well with us it was purely by accident. We didn't get Spike neutered in time and Scooter and Snoopy came along. Then the question of should we wait til they where weaned which is what we did and once again it was to late and we now have 2 more 5 days OOP. Yes as soon as Scooter and Snoopy were weaned Spike got neutered. So in our case purely accidental. Scooter and Snoopy are also in seperate from Spike and Sweet Pea, but there cages are next to each other. Once they are neutered then they will all go into the same big home.
All will stay with us.

Last edited by SpikenPea; 07/30/07 12:10 PM.

Zookeeper of
our special kids Scooter, Snoopy, Digger, and Rascal
3 Dogs - Trixie and Lilly
3 Cats - Munchkin, Gizmo and Squeaker
1 Naked Mole Rat aka Chihuahua - KiKi
2 Brats (Kids)
and 1 Boss or so She Thinks.LOL (The wife)
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350128
07/30/07 12:16 PM
07/30/07 12:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Some are constantly bringing up the gliders that need rescue, but where are they?

I have been around for years and here for about 1 1/2 years and have YET to see any except the 2 I took in from a lady I met.

Applications filled out, phone calls, promises, WHERE are all of these "rescues"?!

How can you expect someone to give a rescue a home if you can't find any? It's not just me. Plenty of people are wondering the same thing. No return emails or phone calls, not even a courtesy and yet it's a constant thing on here that people should "apply" to get a rescue.

The subject at hand.

I never intended to breed. My gliders mated however and due to problems with it, he is neutered. I have the joeys and always will.

I do have WFB's I decided I MIGHT breed but no more than 2 or 3 pregnancies then it's snip snip. This however, is after years of research and being a glider slave and being through the ringer and back with one pair I didn't have the background on the mom. Never again, lesson learned. I was too scared of surgery and couldn't seperate them until I almost lost her. He got the surgery. They are a very happy couple now!

I will not allow my gray gliders to breed. There are too many out there as it is that the price has come down to the point too many are being sold to people who are impulse buying.

I personally cannot see how anyone can "impulse" buy an animal though at a flea market or anywhere with a price of app. $200.00! I can see to a point where someone would impulse buy a little turtle or hermit crab, even a hamster but a Sugar Glider????!!

The first gliders I ever saw was at a flea market. At $250.00, I had enough sense to KNOW the woman was lying about their care, etc. I mean, come on! If an animal costs that much, it MUST need something more than cereal, baby food, cat food and a leash!

Sure enough, after reading up about them for many months, I was right.

There are some people out there that make A LOT of money selling gliders. She is one of them. There are a few I know like was said in a previous post that make an entire living selling gliders and a darn good one for themselves too! All at the cost of the gliders health and well being!

Common sense is what more people need when it comes to breeding or having animals AND rearing children. I agree with whomever said there should be a test to qualify for either one!

You won't find the "mill breeders" on here, they are out selling "stock" at the flea markets and such. I've only known responsible breeders here on GC thus far. The mill breeders don't care what they feed the gliders or where they go to as long as they have cash in hand when the glider is gone. It's sad.

I had to mention also about the post about which glider to choose from, the one that is tame or the one that was basically needy. I would have always chosen the one that seemed needy, scrawny, mean, etc. Just because I know what it's like to be hurt and can't stand for any animal (or human) to feel that way.

Last edited by SugarBlossoms; 07/30/07 12:39 PM.

Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350134
07/30/07 12:22 PM
07/30/07 12:22 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



Originally Posted By: LizIvey

and for the discussion...
I do have a single breeding pair, but am I considered a breeder? They have only 1 joey at a time, no more than 3 times per year. I also am trying to provide these great creatures to an area of the country where they are far and few between. I spend countless hours of my days feeding, socializing and just ENJOYING them!

By usda standards, no you're not a breeder, but if you are selling your joeys and not keeping them to form a family colony, then yes, i would think that you are a small "hobby" breeder. And i am not saying that you are not good at what you do and i am not saying that you treat your animals unethically. But i am saying that owning suggies for 6 months doesnt give a person experience enough to breed. You might know all about diets and certain illnesses and stuff, but experience is what makes someone a GOOD breeder. People have to start somewhere, and its good to have some glider ownership experience before you jump into breeding.
Originally Posted By: LizIvey
also, in any case if the joey were to not sell,I would keep it forever. no exceptions.
Is this bad reasoning?

This is not bad. Like i said, you might be one of the most ethically minded people out there, but i think that in general experience is the only route to go to become a breeder.

Originally Posted By: LizIvey

Am I wrong to allow a pair to breed ( and yes I do know everything necessary) to allow others to enjoy this amazing species that everyone here loves so dearly?
Am I wrong for charging $150? I do spend around $100 per month on food etc. per cage, and my gliders have REGULAR vet checks. The joeys are socialized extensively, I guarantee that there are very few joeys who receive more attention. Do I make a profit? hardly. The money will just go to buying the gliders new things.
Yes I do enjoy the experience of having joeys. Is that wrong? Am I to be considered a "bad" breeder based on the fact that I enjoy watching the joeys develop? It honestly will be a sad decision if the male does eventually need to be neutered for any reason, but I will not hesitate to do so.


Honestly, when i spoke about newbie who are feeding their gliders a diet of raisins and yogurt who want to breed, i was speaking of a certain category of people. You obviously arent in that category. Do i personally still feed that someone should have more ownership experience before breeding, yes. Would i call you an unethical or bad breeder, no. I dont know where you are from, but there seems to be no shortage of sugar gliders for pets in any state, so to breed because you want to let people have a chance to own sugar gliders isnt a real issue unless you really are in a state where sugar gliders as pets are scarce (sorry i havent looked at your profile to see where you are)

Please dont think i am picking on you. I dont think you are bad person we just disagree. You are the one i am responding to because you pose a good and educated response.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350146
07/30/07 12:30 PM
07/30/07 12:30 PM

M
Melissa2721
Unregistered
Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
Originally Posted By: mattysmom
This topic keeps popping up every few weeks or months. Why? For the sake of argument and a chance to be rude? I know we all have gliders' happiness at heart and mean well and you have good points that apply to gliders, dogs, cats and have we forgotten children? But this is a free country. If people who own pets would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems. If people who have children would be responsible, we wouldn't have as many problems in this world either. Can we keep this forum "nice?"


Very Well put! It's like beating your head against a brick wall!! These kind of post will never be resolved to the satisfaction of anyone. Perhaps it's the full moon! Hey that's a good one to check into. See how many times this topic was brought up when it was a full moon? It's almost as bad as discussing religon! need_hug


I am not on this Forum 24/7 and have not seen a post like this untill it was brought to my attention earlier in this one. If this has been brought up that many times I do aplogize but if you are only posting to criticize myself or others who are participationg in the orignal question I really don't see a point. I wish people would only post if they actually have something to say and not just to be rude or criticize others. I do think everyone 'should just be nice' but lets be honest, this forum is full of women who from what I can see feel very strongly about their beliefs so the chance of everyone 'just being nice' is pretty slim. I have given up 'fighting' with everyone here, I realize I CAN'T change anyones minds just like no one can change mine. My point is if you have something relevant to say without being rude please post but if not please don't, I don't want to have another 'please take your glider to the vet' fiasco ! Have a great day everyone smile

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350723
07/30/07 11:11 PM
07/30/07 11:11 PM

E
ErinA
Unregistered
ErinA
Unregistered
E



Someone had asked where are the rescues ans spoke of having looked in vain for one to adopt from.


I adopted 2 gliders of my own and they are absolutely phenomenal.

Last edited by FURBYnGIZMO; 07/30/07 11:43 PM. Reason: 11
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350746
07/30/07 11:28 PM
07/30/07 11:28 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shoot me.

Last edited by Shuttershade; 07/30/07 11:42 PM.

Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #350759
07/30/07 11:37 PM
07/30/07 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Shuttershade-
That was completely uncalled for!

Do NOT make personal comments or attacks. If you can't stay on topic - don't post.

The topic isn't Where and Why did you get your First Sugar Glider. The topic is Why do People Breed? Especially newbies?

No one needs to be rude - just state your own opinions of the topic, and don't think that by stating your opinions you are going to convince anyone. It is just to state your thoughts.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #350767
07/30/07 11:43 PM
07/30/07 11:43 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Shuttershade Offline
Glider Lover
Shuttershade  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 376
Walker (56484), Minnesota, USA...
Since I have nothing nice to say and want to cause problems, I am on a suspension from GC wave

Last edited by gliderdad79; 07/30/07 11:47 PM.

Fly (rescued gerbil)
Luna, Cibil, Newbie (gerbils)
Koda (rescued dog)
Minket & Angel (rescued cats)
Poseidon (walmart betta)
Heron (semi-rescued treefrog)
Suggies coming soon! =D
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #350776
07/30/07 11:55 PM
07/30/07 11:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
I agree if it does not retain to the original post question why post, negative comments are never nice.

I believe you should be experienced in glider ownership to breed, and yes accidents do happen. But I just can not see how some one would feel comfortable in allowing these creatures to breed with out even spending eccessive amounts of time researching about breeding and joeys, not just glider ownership but the whole other can of worms of breeding, joeys, and joey rejection. That's my opinion.

I just think the negativity is getting way out of control.


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #350780
07/30/07 11:57 PM
07/30/07 11:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict
GliderLove  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
Originally Posted By: Shuttershade
Since I have nothing nice to say and want to cause problems, I am on a suspension from GC wave


WOW! shock


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #350790
07/31/07 12:09 AM
07/31/07 12:09 AM

S
SuggieLuver4941
Unregistered
SuggieLuver4941
Unregistered
S



Wow! How did all of this happen?? I haven't been reading this post, but man, did it get ugly evidently! shock

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350832
07/31/07 01:06 AM
07/31/07 01:06 AM

L
LizIvey
Unregistered
LizIvey
Unregistered
L



Lindsey- Thanks for your honest opinion. I really do value hearing what others think of me. You make valid points about my experience level, I will not attempt to argue that I have not had the gliders long enough. I personally have had a lot of good and bad experiences and feel prepared. It doesnt offend me that you disagree!I do respect you for choosing not to breed. I hope that you can respect me as well, despite our small differences. I do not want to be considered a selfish breeder, to be considered such would break my heart. I think we can both learn from each other, or I can at least learn from you.
Thank you for replying and not attacking me! I usually stay out of these types of discussion but I wanted to sacrifice myself as an example lol.

I hope none of you feel that I am a Not Nice Poster. I can learn from each of you, good and bad. I really do love my furrbabes and I know all of you do too or you wouldn't be here. I hope this will continue to stir positive information and that the negative feedback will decrease. Again, I am sorry if I contributed to the problem... hug2 to all!!!

gliderdad, I hope I am not making your life miserable.I am sure that it DOES get old sometimes, listening to all of us bicker. sorry if I contributed.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350837
07/31/07 01:17 AM
07/31/07 01:17 AM

E
ErinA
Unregistered
ErinA
Unregistered
E



It's crazy how heated these things tend to get. We are all so passionate about the things we love, and we all really love our gliders. We are all here "for the good of the glider". Whether you are breeding or not, if you are making educated decisions based on what is in the best interest of the animal, there shouldn't be any trouble. I only wish that were always the case. worried

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350844
07/31/07 01:26 AM
07/31/07 01:26 AM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,603
Virginia Beach, VA.
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen
Ellen  Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,603
Virginia Beach, VA.
iT IS PASSION FOR THE GLIDERS, we must keep this on the good of the glider. IF not it will be closed.

I don't want this to happen. But when folks are rude and get off topic we have to lock the thread. SO PLEASE stay on topic.

Last warring before this is closed. We just dont allow this type of answering without a thout about about the gliders on this board.

Last edited by Ellen; 07/31/07 01:38 AM.

Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Ellen] #350850
07/31/07 01:34 AM
07/31/07 01:34 AM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



LizIvey, i am very happy to hear that you werent offended by what i have to say> i am completely content to agree to disagree. Its one of those things that everyone gets passionate about, and NO ONE will change their minds about, but its always good to get both sides of the arguement out there in an ADULT manner.. THat is what debating is all about.

I have been told that MY CAPS can be misconstrued as being mean, but really, if there was an italics key on my keyboard, i would use that alot - i am just trying to stress the word, NOT yell it..

I dont think you're "not a nice poster" i hope people dont feel that way about me.. but i do feel strongly about certain things.. and no one can change my mind about that..

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Ellen] #350855
07/31/07 01:49 AM
07/31/07 01:49 AM

T
tdickey
Unregistered
tdickey
Unregistered
T



I am a newbie. I have had my 2 pairs for almost 2 months. They are rescues. I was told that both females might have babies ip. They come to the recues with babies ip from time to time. Both my males were fixed before I brought them home. One of my females has a 4 wk.oop baby. The other female I'm still not quite sure about yet. Even though I am new at this I have done a lot of research and asked questions about new babies. I knew there was a possibility and I took it on. All the gliders will stay with their parents. There is no way I will depart from them. This is there forever home now and here is where they will stay. The baby is a female and if the other female has a male I will have him fixed as soon as he can be fixed. I really enjoy my new baby but I love my other 4 just as much. I am still working on bonding with them. My males and 1 female are coming along great. The female that has the joey is coming around. I have been working more with her since she has had her joey. I didn't want to stress her out anymore than I had to. As far as breeding gliders I couldn't do it, because I wouldn't be able to give them up! I would have a house full of rescues if I was given the chance, because It breaks my heart to read and hear some of the stories about these babies. And as far as anyone making a profit I can't see how. With all the time, food, toys, vets., ect. It can't be much.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350860
07/31/07 01:58 AM
07/31/07 01:58 AM

M
Melissa2721
Unregistered
Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: tdickey
I am a newbie. I have had my 2 pairs for almost 2 months. They are rescues. I was told that both females might have babies ip. They come to the recues with babies ip from time to time. Both my males were fixed before I brought them home. One of my females has a 4 wk.oop baby. The other female I'm still not quite sure about yet. Even though I am new at this I have done a lot of research and asked questions about new babies. I knew there was a possibility and I took it on. All the gliders will stay with their parents. There is no way I will depart from them. This is there forever home now and here is where they will stay. The baby is a female and if the other female has a male I will have him fixed as soon as he can be fixed. I really enjoy my new baby but I love my other 4 just as much. I am still working on bonding with them. My males and 1 female are coming along great. The female that has the joey is coming around. I have been working more with her since she has had her joey. I didn't want to stress her out anymore than I had to. As far as breeding gliders I couldn't do it, because I wouldn't be able to give them up! I would have a house full of rescues if I was given the chance, because It breaks my heart to read and hear some of the stories about these babies. And as far as anyone making a profit I can't see how. With all the time, food, toys, vets., ect. It can't be much.


What a great post...good luck with your babies, i'm sure they will do fine !

Oh and I totally agree with not being able to part with them, I wouldn't be able to either ! mlove

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350864
07/31/07 02:03 AM
07/31/07 02:03 AM

L
LizIvey
Unregistered
LizIvey
Unregistered
L



that is great, that you can keep them. I have three joeys that I am keeping as well, I just couldn't stand to part with them. I love to read posts like yours, people going out of their way to help the gliders.
Thank you for lightening the mood of this topic! and definitely good luck with your gliders =) they sound great.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #350911
07/31/07 07:54 AM
07/31/07 07:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,346
Mobile,Alabama
jannee66 Offline
Glider Addict
jannee66  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,346
Mobile,Alabama
Originally Posted By: LunaHoshino


Not all older gliders are abused or "difficult," though... plenty of them are sweet, loving pets who simply need to be rehomed due to their owner's circumstances changing.
So older gliders can be just as easy-going as joeys. smile


I agree, my BREAKFAST CLUB are older gliders and they are WONDERFUL!!!I love my gliders I hadda handfeed and we have a special bond, but it sure was great getting new older babies, that I didn't have to handfeed and all the stuff. Just popped up a tent and let the bonding begin!!! "THE LIFE!" agree


wave Jannie

I heart my Sweet Spellbinding Sugar :glider:s

Glider Kisses
Pouches and Cage Sets



Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: jannee66] #350916
07/31/07 08:02 AM
07/31/07 08:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,346
Mobile,Alabama
jannee66 Offline
Glider Addict
jannee66  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,346
Mobile,Alabama
I could never breed or run a rescue home. I SWEAR I would keep them ALL!!!! I would keep every single baby! agree But then of course if nobody was breeding I wouldn't have my babies. And of course if it wasn't for all4gliders and Nancy (jackandsally) I wouldn't have my BREAKFAST CLUB.


wave Jannie

I heart my Sweet Spellbinding Sugar :glider:s

Glider Kisses
Pouches and Cage Sets



Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: jannee66] #350951
07/31/07 10:21 AM
07/31/07 10:21 AM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



I just cant wait until i get my own place.. i plan on either turning half of a finished basement into a rescue, or building a climate controlled room off of the the house for a rescue.. I just hate to sit here idly by while there are suggies in this area who are being sold from a petstore by employees who know nothing..


There is not one glider rescue here, and although BCCHINS does great work with fostering unwanted gliders, she only can do so much.. Hopefully i can make some money from my website to help fund it though, otherwise i would have to rely on donations..But anyways, back on topic....

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351037
07/31/07 12:28 PM
07/31/07 12:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
tdickey- I think your situation is completely different, and does not fall into the "newbies jumping into breeding" category.

You lovingly opened your home to rescues. The thing with rescues is that they often come with curve balls! Such as babies IP. You didn't breed them - they were rescued that way! Fortunately, the rescue was responsible and neutered the male - but that's not going to change the fact that the females already had joeys IP.

Although you are new - those gliders needed a home! Joeys and all. I commend you for opening up your life to these wonderful babies, and their wonderful babies. Talk about jumping in the deep end!

When I first got my gliders, I was exactly like many of the other newbies on here. It was my plan to breed them as soon as possible. I couldn't wait to have joeys!

Fortunately, I found this site. I learned more about gliders, more about breeding, more about rescues, more about *everything!* I can now make a much more informed choice!

Does this mean I will never breed? Don't know yet! I might still. But at least I'm making an INFORMED choice.

I think the newbies that jump onto the forum saying "I'm going to breed!" need to be given the same loving guidance that I was. No one jumped on me and said "NO, you idiot!" Instead, I was gently "shown the light" so I could make my own decision based on facts and not impulse.

This is the greatest gift we can give gliders -- educate the glider slaves!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351303
07/31/07 05:00 PM
07/31/07 05:00 PM

G
Ginharrison
Unregistered
Ginharrison
Unregistered
G



Melissa2721
I am sorry frown if it sounded to you that I was critizing you, because by no means was that my intention. I just got frustrated upset by some of the post in here and I really didn't mean yours at all. But to me it's not even that it has been brought up before as much as what I preceive as arguing over something that can never be resolved, this is everyone's own opion and who is to say which is right and which is wrong. The best that can come out of this issue is to agree agree to disagree shakehead . Again this is just my opion and I realize that not every one see's it this way.
Please except my appoligy
Sorry wave

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351324
07/31/07 05:12 PM
07/31/07 05:12 PM

M
Melissa2721
Unregistered
Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
Melissa2721
I am sorry frown if it sounded to you that I was critizing you, because by no means was that my intention. I just got frustrated upset by some of the post in here and I really didn't mean yours at all. But to me it's not even that it has been brought up before as much as what I preceive as arguing over something that can never be resolved, this is everyone's own opion and who is to say which is right and which is wrong. The best that can come out of this issue is to agree agree to disagree shakehead . Again this is just my opion and I realize that not every one see's it this way.
Please except my appoligy
Sorry wave


That was So nice of you ! hug2

There really is no need to apologize at all, if anything I am sorry for making you feel bad. I have just been getting frustrated because it seems like every post I start turns in to drama and I don't want to be perceived as a big trouble maker ! I really am not trying to start problems but I'm afraid I have gotten on the bad side of a couple members and now whenever I post they are right there to start trouble with me. Thank you so much for taking the time to make sure there are no bad feelings between us ! I REALLY appreciate it ! mlove

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351326
07/31/07 05:13 PM
07/31/07 05:13 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



i think agreeing to disagree is a really go thing.. and to get your opinions out in the open is also a really good thing.. The purpose of this wasnt really to change anyones mind, but to just discuss. If there are people lurking here who might have been thinking about breeding, then they can absorb everything in and see BOTH sides of the arguement.. I think its good that these posts pop up every now and again.. people cycle through here, so if this post were to pop up every few months, then the new people can again, see what we are all trying to say..

i mean, we all know how long it took us to figure out the search function

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351356
07/31/07 05:43 PM
07/31/07 05:43 PM

G
Ginharrison
Unregistered
Ginharrison
Unregistered
G



Thank you Melissa for your reply. I really appreciate it because some people probably would not of replied. It makes me feel better need_hug .
I hope that you have better experiences in the future with this forum. I know that there are alot of very nice people on here and sometime people can just get caught up in something and do not realize how there responces might come across to other's, but all in all this is a wonderful commuity! heart

hug2
Ginger

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351445
07/31/07 08:03 PM
07/31/07 08:03 PM

M
Melissa2721
Unregistered
Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: Ginharrison
Thank you Melissa for your reply. I really appreciate it because some people probably would not of replied. It makes me feel better need_hug .
I hope that you have better experiences in the future with this forum. I know that there are alot of very nice people on here and sometime people can just get caught up in something and do not realize how there responces might come across to other's, but all in all this is a wonderful commuity! heart

hug2
Ginger


Despite the couple of people here that I have had problems with I have met numerous wonderful, friendly and helpful people to equal things out mlove
This is a great place to learn and share with everyone, I have never seen a group of people that don't know each other come together to help someone in need (Amy & Dave). I think the people here are incredible clap hug2 clap

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351531
07/31/07 10:36 PM
07/31/07 10:36 PM

G
glide2kali
Unregistered
glide2kali
Unregistered
G



Yes!!! I agree with Melissa. Thanks, Ginharrison for saying that. Sometimes it's hard for us "newbies" to join in because we get our heads bit off for thinking outloud or expressing "our" opinions so it's nice to have people respond who are hear to help and encourage. thumb Your awesome. Thanks

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351533
07/31/07 10:39 PM
07/31/07 10:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
See, there is such a thing as rational discussions. Thank you all who have helped keep it that way wave


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: gliderdad79] #351557
07/31/07 11:09 PM
07/31/07 11:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
I started out in 2001, my first pair had a baby we named Boo Boo as he really was an accident. Cider was neutered shortly after that and we had planned on keeping Boo Boo as our own. Now neither Cider or Miss Sassy was of any line of breed, I guess it wasn't a requirement at the time.

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong and we lost Cider. We had a necropsy done on Cider but it was still a needle in a haystack as to what went wrong with him.

I guess now I'm sitting here with the proper lineage. I have two wfb gliders and I'm getting 2nd gen babies out of them. I really wonder what people consider the right lines ? Is it from those nasty big but reputable breeders who line breed or am I better off getting one from a flea market ? This isn't meant to be nasty or anything like that but if I after all these years still have these questions then what must it be like for a newbie. I hear all the time don't breed if you buy from a pet store but then if you are buying from a pet store don't you expect the best ? Don't breed if you don't know the lineage but in reality it's either the line breeders or the flea markets. Okay off my soapbox lol Oh yeah and look at the membership here right ? Remember that is a very small portion of people who actually own gliders. Just things I'm sure we all think about.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: gliderdad79] #351566
07/31/07 11:19 PM
07/31/07 11:19 PM

A
AngieH
Unregistered
AngieH
Unregistered
A



I am the president of Hope for Gliders, a sugar glider rescue in Texas. We have placed over 140 gliders in screened educated homes. Its very hard sometimes to let them go, sometimes we work for a very long time getting them to learn trust and to correct behavior issues they may have come here with. I wish that everyone could see the gliders here and know they each have a story to tell. Sometimes when I hold them I wonder if the person who breed them knows what all they have been through, some are very neglected and have been in many many homes. Some have been abused, one was starved to death and only lived a few house after he arrived here. One glider here was put out for the trash man, thankfully he was brought here when found. I know that there are some responsible breeders out there thank goodness. But I know firsthand that some are not, and they are only seen as a way to make money. I have seen gliders being sold to young children, one was to be a pet for a toddler. frown She was surrendered her within 4 days of purchase. It hink after 4 years of doing rescue I have seen the worst but I will never get used to seeing it.
We don't have babies here often, we average about one or two babies a year to rescues coming in what are allready pregant, and we usually take in at least one orphan a year to raise. I gave up breeding long ago and am happy with just doing what I can to help the ones allready here.
We definetly need more people to help with rescue and we do need people to really think about the responsibilty of breeding. The problem with rescues in Texas, and many other states, is getting worse each year and I can't see any end to this issue. Please help us, educate new owners and please promote the neutering of males and encourage the gliders you sell to be pampered pets before parents.
If anyone would like to know more about Hope for Gliders, please visit our website. (The link is in my signature)

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351573
07/31/07 11:23 PM
07/31/07 11:23 PM

M
Melissa2721
Unregistered
Melissa2721
Unregistered
M



Angie, I wish their were more people like you !

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351579
07/31/07 11:28 PM
07/31/07 11:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
For more information on Angie and her wonderful project please visit wink

Last edited by Carrie T; 07/31/07 11:46 PM. Reason: Porn shows up on that site
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351694
08/01/07 02:31 AM
08/01/07 02:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave
ScootersPet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
I have bred i had a wonderful trio and now have a wf/cg the day that a set of twins i had turned 9 weeks, and didnt have a new home to go live in is when i decided toby would get neutered. If i cant provide the absolute best homes for my guys, i dont want to breed. Halo will be getting neutered as soon as i get the money because one of their twins (im keeping one) has yet to have a prospective owner.....

I didnt read all of the above posts, so if this has been said already, im sorry....


In my opinion, the difference between mill breeders and breeders here on GC is this :

mill breeders start out large scale, they buy many animals from anywhere they can, they cram them into tiny cages, feed them low quality food (to save a buck) no toys, no beloved wheels, and leave them until they get what they want out of them :BABIES, then they sell them to whoever has money and the cycle repeats all over again, and there reason for breeding is one thing, and one thing only... MONEY! They dont care if new /potnetial owners are educated, or even have the slightest idea of where to start with caring for their new baby. they see little gliding dollar signs, not the adorable, sweet faces that we see everytime we peek into a pouch....

Respected GC breeders start out small, one or two at first, get used to the routine, the care the loving relationships and grow their "colony (not neccessarily in the same cage)" out by buying high quality, well bred, well taken care of animals, they out them in big cages, feed high quality food, give them more toys then they could dream of, 1, or 2 wheels, and play with them, interact, bond with them, and when they have babies, it is the joy of their next 2 months, the babies get played with, taken well care of, find responsible owners and have the pleasure of giving another person the special love, companionship, emotional bond of a little furry glider. They retire pairs when it is neccessary, and dont care about the money, all they want is the joy of breeding.
I have bred i had a wonderful trio and now have a wf/cg the day that a set of twins i had turned 9 weeks, and didnt have a new home to go live in is when i decided toby would get neutered. If i cant provide the absolute best homes for my guys, i dont want to breed. Halo will be getting neutered as soon as i get the money because one of their twins (im keeping one) has yet to have a prospective owner.....


I dont like comparing mill breeders to the respected breeders here on GC, and those who have not found GC yet. To me...that is an insult, but....

I'm climbing down off my soapbox now, so.... smile




Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ScootersPet] #351736
08/01/07 08:01 AM
08/01/07 08:01 AM

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HelloSugar
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If you ever have a wfb available, I'm always a prospective new home! I live near you!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352172
08/01/07 05:43 PM
08/01/07 05:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
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I understand completely wher everyone is coming from in not wanting newbies to breed, but there have been quite a few comments made about the fact that you have to be experienced to breed gliders. How can you gain experience in breeding, without actually breeding?


heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352177
08/01/07 05:49 PM
08/01/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
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One other thing. I just wanted to comment that I am a first time oop grandma, and yes, the first time is scary. But I feel that I have found the perfect place in GC to come to for resources and questions. There has been so much wonderful support here, and I just feel that if a person's heart is in it, and they have the proper resources, that no one should be able to say whether they can breed or not. I am personally keeping my babies, and any in the future. But if I do eventually decide to breed to sell, it will be an informed decision. But to define that a "newbie" should not breed is not right in my opinion. I think it all depends on the person that is breeding, how mature they are, how much research they have put into it, and what kind of resources they have. That's just my personal opinion. I truly agree that there are people out there that should not breed, but some of those people have been doing it for years and years. smile

Last edited by SuggieMom2007; 08/01/07 05:53 PM.

heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352192
08/01/07 06:14 PM
08/01/07 06:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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SuggieMom -You bring up some interesting points.

The first one: of course you can't gain experience in breeding without breeding. I think that it is hoped that people will gain experience in SUGGIES before breeding. To get a couple of sugar gliders, and expect them to breed right away is what is being frowned upon in the discussion.

Sugar gliders are complex animals. Without an understanding of their dietary needs, the way they behave when they are sick, their social interactions, etc - it is just not advisable to breed.

Additionally, many new glider owners have inadvertently purchased from mill breeders. I know my first one was. It is my hope that gliders from unknown or unhealthy backgrounds won't be bred. It takes a little research and a bit of knowledge to know that.

And to comment on your second point: YES! I think the term "newbie" is a misnomer - because it isn't just the NEWNESS of a person to glider ownership that makes it unwise for them to breed. It is also a question of maturity, of knowledge and willingness to obtain knowledge, etc.

Some people obtain their gliders with a sound knowledge of what they are getting into, and a willingness to keep learning.

Others obtain their gliders with very poor knowledge being given to them by a breeder who doesn't really care about the outcome.

There are very many factors that need to be considered.

I am guilty of popping into the glider world and thinking I would breed right away. I didn't know that I was given VERY wrong information from the mill breeder I bought him from. I thought, "Hey! I'm an animal lover! I have years of experience with many different animals. This will be fun!"

Fortunately I also had an open mind, a maturity-such as you mention, and a willingness to be proven wrong. By many many standards, I'm still a newbie! I guess I will always have something to learn.

God willing, I will NEVER have to learn first hand about self-mutilating, or cannibalization, or HLP, or rejection! But ... a few months ago, I didn't even know those things EXISTED. So - that's what is required by "newbies". A willingness to learn, a willingness to be proven wrong, an openness to different perspectives.

If that learning takes you months or years is really not anyone else's call.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352208
08/01/07 06:31 PM
08/01/07 06:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
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Thank you ValkyrieMome! That was very well put. I think it summed up this entire discussion.

"A willingness to learn, a willingness to be proven wrong, an openness to different perspectives."

Part of me wanted to be offended when I first started reading this thread. But it took me about two pages to realize that, no one was talking about "me".
I will be the first to admit that I will always have questions. And that there will always be new resources out there to take advantage of, and there will always be new knowledge to gain. But through love for my gliders, the experiences they bring me, and the friends that I have made here, I know that I will be successful in the care of my gliders and their offspring.
mlove

Last edited by SuggieMom2007; 08/01/07 06:34 PM.

heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352239
08/01/07 07:31 PM
08/01/07 07:31 PM

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LindsayAnnG
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suggiemom2007, i when i personally spoke of "newbies" not breeding, i didnt mean people who are new to breeding, i meant people who are new to suggies in general. I meant that there are people out there who get their first ever sugar glider and hardly know anything about them and all of a sudden are asking about breeding. I dont mean that newbies to breeding shouldnt breed.. if that were the case - there would never be any new breeders.

Val always has a way for putting what i'm thinking into a much better and more thought out post.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352260
08/01/07 08:17 PM
08/01/07 08:17 PM

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TracyLynn
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I agree that there is alot to consider when you talk about breeding - Not only concerning the owner's knowledge & maturity, but their schedule, flexability & lifestyle. I adopted my first pair of gliders as rehomes. I had been around gliders for 2+ years before I made the decision to get my own AND I wanted rescues/rehomes, ones that needed a forever home & second chance. I NEVER PLANNED ON HAVING JOEYS. I have adopted rescue/rehomes 5 times now with the male neutered before they came to me, or within a week of arriving. All but one of those adoptions has arrived with joeys IP or just out of pouch. I have been blessed with 2 sets of twins and 1 single little girl and my new rescue has twins IP. I worry constantly about the babies, will they canabalize, will they reject, will I be able to keep up with handfeeding if needed? I know I will deal with whatever they throw at me, but it is ALOT to think about and not something to be undertaken lightly. I also do not have the worry about finding homes for my joeys. They are all staying with me as family colonies. I will have three families of 4, a colony of 8 and when the new twins arrive, a family of 5. The male I just got on Monday is getting fixed on Thursday, and my only male joey is getting fixed in September when he is old enough. Even though I didn't plan on joeys, they will stay with me forever and the cycle of breeding for the parents is ending and for the joeys, it will never begin.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352262
08/01/07 08:24 PM
08/01/07 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
Val always has a way for putting what i'm thinking into a much better and more thought out post.


Actually, Lindsay, that might be more true than many people think! They don't know that you and I talk, and are frequently so much in agreement it is scary! I just have that Irish "gift of gab" -- strange, since I'm not Irish, I'm Welsh!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352452
08/02/07 05:43 AM
08/02/07 05:43 AM

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HelloSugar
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Originally Posted By: Carrie T

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong.


Precisely why I will NEVER nueter! Yup, I said never! I know there will be a lot of people disagreeing with me on this, and that's okay. This is MY opinion and I'm entitled to it as much as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Frankly, if you don't want your gliders to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's that simple. But to remove a living creature's body part because YOU don't want it to behave naturally, is selfish. It's forced mutilation.

We try to give our gliders the best in cages, the best in toys, the best diet - to provide the nutrition that's as close to nature as possible, then we go chopping off their genitals? That's not very natural.

If we can't handle the task of owning an animal, we shouldn't own one. But it's not okay to mutilate a living creature because we can't handle one of it's natural behaviors (mating). If we can't handle an animal doing what an animal is supposed to do, then we don't deserve to own it.

Does the glider know the difference? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. That's not the point. The point is it's not our right to tailor the animal's body to fit our own selfish agenda. It's sick to me. If you don't want your animal to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's not rocket science.

Neutering is completely unnecessary. Not to mention that there's always the risk that the pet won't wake up from anesthesia or something will go wrong and it could die. This is not the norm, but it IS a risk, a risk that could be 100% avoided.

Reminds me of the whole frontal lobotomy thing: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014080

Anyhow, that's my opinion though I know many will disagree.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352477
08/02/07 08:58 AM
08/02/07 08:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
Not only can you not keep males with females if you don't want them to breed, you can't keep males together. In such small areas and "forced" colonies they will rape each other or fight for dominance and can kill each other. That isn't very natural either. In the wild gliders have acres to roam. I don't know anyone here who can provide that.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352505
08/02/07 10:13 AM
08/02/07 10:13 AM

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WannaBeMom
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While trying to keep all opinions in clear sight, I feel it necessary to comment.

I feel as a person who has taken on the desire, and responsibility, to own a pet, especially a kind of pet that has such special needs as a Glider, then I as that pet owner have one obligation and that is to preserve the QUALITY OF LIFE for my Glider(s).

Yes, in some people’s opinions, neutering is like playing a sort of God, altering our pet for our own selfish reasons…However, I ask you, what is more selfish that having to confine an “intact” male to a life of solitude? Whether housed next to other gliders or allowed playtime or whatever…I honestly cannot think of anything more…UNNATURAL.

Gliders are social creatures, virtually above all else, and if choosing to own one, or many, I feel that this is what should be considered first and foremost as important. If we are not capable, or prepared to take on such great responsibilities as aiding in the process of breeding, then we should, as a responsibility to our pets, have them neutered to control such outcomes and at the same time, allow them the luxury of living continually with their partner(s) and/or families.

I just think that each persons situation may be different, and as stated previously, each of those people are entitled to their opinions. Thank you for hearing mine.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352537
08/02/07 11:45 AM
08/02/07 11:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
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NW Missouri
Shannon, I couldn't agree with you more! That was exactly the point I was trying to make. smile



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352542
08/02/07 11:53 AM
08/02/07 11:53 AM

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WannaBeMom
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Hallelujah!

I mean...mating is a natural instinct...but socializing is WHO THEY ARE. It makes up their entire personality.

Sacrificing one for the necessity of the other seems...obvious.

Again, to each their own I suppose. But thanks for letting me know I was not out to lunch!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352544
08/02/07 11:56 AM
08/02/07 11:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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Nope, not at all. I got a retired breeder who could not be in with an intact male for her own health per my contract with the breeder. She was pulling joeys. I tried to intro her to my 2 females, but it wouldn't work. I bought a sterile male and had him neutered (just in case) and they are now together happily. Cobalt was 6 months oop at the time of his operation and it didn't even phase him. He never even bothered the neuter site.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352546
08/02/07 12:00 PM
08/02/07 12:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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Also, not every pet owner is responsible enought to separate males from females to prevent breeding, which is why we have animals in rescues, shelters, the streets. I would rather mutilate one animal to prevent thousands of homeless animals!

Did you know that 1 male suggie can create 3,000 descendants in 5 years? That is based on each male having 4 males per year. They can actually have many more than that. Not to mention that they will have female joeys as well. If the irresponsible people don't separate their gliders, look at how many will end up in rescues.

Also, some animals will die if they aren't fixed and don't breed. Female ferrets will bleed to death if they aren't bred and they go into heat.

Not to mention the mess of many females when they go into heat.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352550
08/02/07 12:04 PM
08/02/07 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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In addition, to add to the "whether or not to neuter" discussion:

It has been proven time and time again in most mammals kept as companion animals - males that are neutered, and females that are spayed (where possible. Not in gliders) live LONGER, HEALTHIER lives in captivity.

If you really want something natural - don't keep pets.

However, if you *DO* keep pets, we have the ability to extend the life-expectancy that they would have in the wild. One of the ways we can do this is to neuter, which alters aggressive, territorial behaviors - which serve no purpose in a domestic animal. Additionally, the breeding hormones which occur in animals kept domestically and NOT bred can cause many kinds of cancer, in addition to stress on the animals.

We are NOT forcing mutilation on animals merely to suit a selfish agenda.

We have CHOSEN to take these animals from their natural habitat. It is our *responsibility* to see that these animals have the best life available to them in captivity. We cannot allow them to breed at will. They would not do this in the wild - the females are not confined to a small area with the males in the wild. We have a responsibility to control the domestic population, to avoid in-breeding, and to reduce the purchase by people who cannot provide the best care for the animals.

The way those assurances are made in a domestic population is via neutering. To do anything OTHER than neuter is, in my opinion, the selfish action here.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352552
08/02/07 12:08 PM
08/02/07 12:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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Sherman, Texas
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
We have CHOSEN to take these animals from their natural habitat. It is our *responsibility* to see that these animals have the best life available to them in captivity. We cannot allow them to breed at will. They would not do this in the wild - the females are not confined to a small area with the males in the wild. We have a responsibility to control the domestic population, to avoid in-breeding, and to reduce the purchase by people who cannot provide the best care for the animals.

The way those assurances are made in a domestic population is via neutering. To do anything OTHER than neuter is, in my opinion, the selfish action here.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352575
08/02/07 12:34 PM
08/02/07 12:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
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Upstate NY
clap Alden you have such a way with words. I always try to tell people just that. It really is our responsibility to give pets the best life possible, as we are responsible for their LIVES.

I do not see neutering as "mutilating". If it's done by a good vet, it will be done as safely as possible and under a sterile environment. Some vets will do it by laser now (which is how my boy got neutered) which is very safe.

While it is true that some gliders are unfortunate and die from neuters, think of how many gliders are unfortunate enough to be born to a mill breeder, sold at a flea market, passed from home to home being fed hamster food and bologna, ultimately dying from neglect or abuse. It's say the pros greatly outweigh the cons here. As awful as it may be to the one glider who lost his life due to a neuter gone wrong, think of all the other gliders who must suffer for their entire lives and will just die anyway, a slow painful death, never knowing a loving hand or even a suitable cage.

Sure, you could keep males separate from females, that's obviously a fool proof way to keep from having joeys, but what about the poor males who don't get a buddy? Some will be able to get along with other males, true, but most won't. Especially with females and other gliders in the same house, the chances are usually pretty slim that they will get along with another male. If you do choose to put two intact males together anyway, what if they fight? Is it fair for two gliders to die needlessly from a vicious fight, because you refused to have them neutered? Of course not.




With the breeding, in my post I wanted to know why everyone wanted to just jump right into breeding right away. Of course joeys would be fun to have around, but why not enjoy the gliders you have? I hate it that new glider owners are so anxious to hurry up and get a breeding pair. Are your adults not good enough for you?

I firmly believe that they need to have some first-hand experience with glider ownership before even considering breeding gliders. A couple months is nowhere near enough time. I got my first gliders, thinking I wanted to breed, but luckily they never did. I would not have been ready at all. Now I do not want to breed at all, I could never do so in good concience with all the unwanted gliders out there.

I just wish that people would put more thought into it. Rehomes, rescues, pet shops gliders, or mill-bred gliders should never be bred under any circumstances. Unfortunately, it seems that the owners of those gliders are the ones who want to go ahead and breed right away, for the most part. Of course some of it is that they just don't know, they were given poor informations, or none at all. But then experienced owners try to give them advice and valid points to think about, and they refuse to listen.

It's sad that pets can't be loved by some for just being pets. My gliders will never be bred, especially since I don't know the backgrounds on any of them. I'm more than happy with them just as pets, they do not need to have babies to make it better. If someone thinks that they will make money off of them, why in the world would they spend the money in the first place? I just don't understand WHY so many people feel that sugar glider should be bred, even after we have tried educating them.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: glidergrl1513] #352596
08/02/07 01:08 PM
08/02/07 01:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
Yes I did lose Boo Boo and it hurt deeply. He wasn't my baby as he bonded with my son and husband while I was in another state taking care of family business. I can't imagine though that he should be an excuse for not neutering. Instead we should look closely at the person doing the procedure. My other couple live happily together because Catcher was neutered. My other choice besides mutilating Catcher was to force Sassy to have back to back babies and put her or her newborn joeys at risk ? I don't think so. If we had this attitude towards our cats and dogs we'd really have a mess. It's already a very sad situation with them, just ask any vet or Humane Sociaty.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352624
08/02/07 01:56 PM
08/02/07 01:56 PM

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HelloSugar
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I certainly respect everyone's opinions. I know that everything we do, we do with our gliders' best interest in mind. I do stand firmly behind my opinion. My pets will never be put through what I consider horrible mutilation for my own selfish agenda. At the same time, my stand on not neutering will NEVER cause me to be a glider mill, or even a large scale breeder.

I agree with you all on so many points here, that we need to control the domestic population, and to provide our gliders with the best possible life. I also see that this can be done without nuetering. Leaving a male intact does not cause a him to have a lower quality of life. In my opinion, it affords him the right to remain as he was created, natural. I just don't feel like my name is God, and so if we couldn't keep the population down without altering the natural state of the animal, then perhaps we shouldn't have CHOSEN to take them from the wild to begin with.

I don't think that we have so many rescues because people don't neuter, I think it's more due to the mills and even large scale breeders. Mass production is the culprit. If we only had hobby breeders, I think the numbers of captive gliders would be dramatically lower than what we have now, and rescues wouldn't be this big issue that it is today.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352625
08/02/07 01:58 PM
08/02/07 01:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
I beg to differ.

1 male glider lets say he has 4 babies a year look what happens in lets say just 5 yrs of breeding

1x4= 4 add babies and dad 4+1= 5 at end of yr 1 (5)
5x4= 20 add babies and dads 20+5=25 at end of yr 2 (25)
25x4= 100 add babies and dads 100+25=125 at end of yr 3 (125)
125x4= 500 add babies and dads 500+125=625 at end of yr 4 (625)
625x4=2500 add babies and dads 2500+625=3125 at end of yr 5 (3125)

*Thanks to Cyndiekb for that info*



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352641
08/02/07 02:20 PM
08/02/07 02:20 PM

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Kathryn
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Back on topic:

I wasn't going to comment in this thread... but I have a tiny something to throw in, take it at face value.

This whole breeding gliders who don't have multi generation pedigrees.

For the original breeders out there... did yours come with a multi generation pedigree? I know that's a statement so full of holes its not even funny! But seriously... There is a grouping of breeders who started keeping records.... So are we only to breed those gliders?? Never introducing new blood into those lines? If there is new blood out there. Never breeding any other gliders? How would new lines form? Shouldn't new breeders start keeping records of their own? How else would gliders develop pedigree's?

I'm under the impression that we all should go to an ESTABLISHED breeder who is keeping records who has established lines.... and buy gliders, who are pretty much related to everyone else's gliders! And start our own breeding program this way. hmmmmm. I remember someone trying desperately to find a lion who was not related to hers who had a pedigree for breeding... Not an easy find. They were all related! hmmmm.

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different. I think I'm pretty safe. so does this mean that since they don't have pedigrees, that I should not let them breed, cause they were not purchased from an established breeder? Or because I am fairly new to gliders?

I don't plan on setting up a breeding program, but I do think I'll let them have a family. Is this wrong? If I were to let them have a couple more joeys or for a select friend or family member before I fix my boy, is that wrong?

Or should I fix him and find gliders with pedigrees and let them have a family?

Sorry, this ended up being a lot longer than I intended... but I just keep seeing those pedigree posts and while I get it... it gets me to a degree.

I know that careless inbreeding is the end result in most cases, but at some point you have to open your minds and make room for those of us who are using common sense when making our decisions. Just pleading my case. lol

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 02:21 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352647
08/02/07 02:25 PM
08/02/07 02:25 PM
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It's not that they need a "pedigree". When you breed gliders with unknown backgrounds, you chance them being related or having medical issues (genetic). Why would you want to risk that? And yes, with the lion example, that's true but only because a true lion is hard to find. Most are descended from Matthew.

Also, as far as rescues and rehomes go, these should not be bred because they've already had enough stress in their lives. They should be allowed to be happy in a home that loves them for being gliders, not for the joeys they're going to make.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352655
08/02/07 02:40 PM
08/02/07 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
Originally Posted By: Carrie T

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong.


Precisely why I will NEVER nueter! Yup, I said never! I know there will be a lot of people disagreeing with me on this, and that's okay. This is MY opinion and I'm entitled to it as much as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Frankly, if you don't want your gliders to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's that simple. But to remove a living creature's body part because YOU don't want it to behave naturally, is selfish. It's forced mutilation.

We try to give our gliders the best in cages, the best in toys, the best diet - to provide the nutrition that's as close to nature as possible, then we go chopping off their genitals? That's not very natural.

If we can't handle the task of owning an animal, we shouldn't own one. But it's not okay to mutilate a living creature because we can't handle one of it's natural behaviors (mating). If we can't handle an animal doing what an animal is supposed to do, then we don't deserve to own it.

Does the glider know the difference? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. That's not the point. The point is it's not our right to tailor the animal's body to fit our own selfish agenda. It's sick to me. If you don't want your animal to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's not rocket science.

Neutering is completely unnecessary. Not to mention that there's always the risk that the pet won't wake up from anesthesia or something will go wrong and it could die. This is not the norm, but it IS a risk, a risk that could be 100% avoided.



Anyhow, that's my opinion though I know many will disagree.




Is your answer then to keep a LONE glider? They can also die from self mutilation, lonliness and depression.

I said the same thing you are now about the neutering. (the part about being scared of something going wrong)

Life threw us a curveball, I won't go into detail, most know the story but we almost lost our female to that thinking. She was losing her joeys, becoming depressed, grieving and losing weight.

What should we have done? Take her away from her life mate and watch her die from more depression and lonliness?

I talked to people here on GC that helped me through the process of finding the best vet around here and getting him neutered. He was neutered in March while yet 2 more joeys were IP. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. NONE. He kept his poms, the surgery went smooth and he was back to normal about the time he got back home other than sleepy. They had the joeys and for the first time, they raised them.

We now have handsome adorable twin boys now and their mama was alive to raise them and now NO worries about her having anymore joeys. Those two love eachother more than a lot of humans can love eachother. You would have to see them to understand my meaning. No way could I have separated them, they both would have been dead within months. I'd have bet on it.

My first boy had surgery today on his mouth. He may need to have his jaw wired. Is that cruel? NO. To me it's "Thank God for the vets with the knowledge to save my gliders" cause in the wild, he would have died soon.

Gliders only live an average of 5 to 7 years in the wild, lots don't make it that far. Our gliders can live 15 PLUS years. We are doing SOMETHING right!


We can't get the twins neutered right now so instead we bought them another cage. They will live together forever with no females around.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352656
08/02/07 02:40 PM
08/02/07 02:40 PM
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MizValorie Offline
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Originally Posted By: princessmegi

Also, as far as rescues and rehomes go, these should not be bred because they've already had enough stress in their lives. They should be allowed to be happy in a home that loves them for being gliders, not for the joeys they're going to make.


Sorry but I just want to ask one thing...If the rescues/rehomes are allowed that quality of life why on earth doesn't EVERY glider deserve this?


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352657
08/02/07 02:41 PM
08/02/07 02:41 PM

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Kathryn
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ok... the definition of pedigree via Webster's:

"an ancestral line : LINEAGE b : the origin and the history of something; broadly : BACKGROUND, HISTORY
3 a : a distinguished ancestry b : the recorded purity of breed of an individual or strain "

So yes I think that is exactly what is being referred to when people are talking about Lines, pedigrees, backgrounds, whatever you want to call it, its all the same thing.

And I never said that it was ok to breed rescues. I don't have rescues. And I agree that rescues should not be bread due to the stress issues. But not every glider owned without a known background is a rescue.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352660
08/02/07 02:43 PM
08/02/07 02:43 PM

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HelloSugar
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Princess Megi, while that may be a great show of numbers, it doesn't apply to what I'm talking about.

Yes, a male glider can father countless babies, but all those numbers mean nothing if a glider owner doesn't allow their gliders to constantly breed. That's my whole point.

Non-nuetering does not equal breeding. Humans' actions lead to their pets breeding. Captive gliders only breed because we put the males/females together and let them. That can be resolved by keeping them in same sex pairs.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352661
08/02/07 02:46 PM
08/02/07 02:46 PM
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They do. I guess what I meant was...Rescues and Rehomes have already had the stress of moving homes, by requiring them to breed, we are only adding to their stress and it is not fair to them (because they've already lived a stressful life). A glider who has only been in 1 home (sold as a joey) can handle the stresses of breeding much more easily than a rescue or rehome which is why they are the only gliders that should be breeding. None of my gliders breed. I didn't buy them to make money or babies. They were brought into my home to be loved and spoiled.

I guess the point I was trying to get across is that rescues and rehomes have been through to much stress to be considered for breeding.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352663
08/02/07 02:46 PM
08/02/07 02:46 PM

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HelloSugar
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No SugarBlossoms, please refrain from putting words into my mouth. By no means would I ever keep a single glider. You can keep them in same sex pairs or groups. Yes, even males can cohabitate peacefully together.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352664
08/02/07 02:47 PM
08/02/07 02:47 PM

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shelleriddle
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Its very difficult to keep two or more non-neutered boys together. I'm not saying it can't be done but its not as easy as keeping neutered boys together. I just got in two un neutered boys and I am having them neutered as soon as possible. I agree breeding should not be in the picture for new glider owners.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352667
08/02/07 02:50 PM
08/02/07 02:50 PM
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If you go back to the gliders breeder they should have the lineage. They should be able to tell you who the parents are and where they purchased the parents.
You could do this:
Person A (you) bought a glider from person (B)
Person B tells you who the parents are and where they were purchased (C).
A goes to C and asks about the joeys sold to B. C should then know the paretns of B's joeys.

You can do this for several generations and you then have your lineage. It is not a hard thing to do.



You can not keep males as same sex pairs. Eventually (in almost every case) they will either fight or one will become dominate and mate (rape) the other male.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352668
08/02/07 02:50 PM
08/02/07 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
That can be resolved by keeping them in same sex pairs.


This is only "safe" trial IF the males are twins and have grown up together. It can happen that 2 unneutered males live together in harmony, but in no way likely.

Females, yes.

But then what you are saying is no gliders in captivity would ever have joeys. Where did you get your gliders?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352670
08/02/07 02:52 PM
08/02/07 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
No SugarBlossoms, please refrain from putting words into my mouth.


If you go back and read what I wrote, I did not put any words in your mouth. I ASKED you a question.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352673
08/02/07 02:57 PM
08/02/07 02:57 PM

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Kathryn
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Originally Posted By: princessmegi
If you go back to the gliders breeder they should have the lineage. They should be able to tell you who the parents are and where they purchased the parents.
You could do this:
Person A (you) bought a glider from person (B)
Person B tells you who the parents are and where they were purchased (C).
A goes to C and asks about the joeys sold to B. C should then know the paretns of B's joeys.

You can do this for several generations and you then have your lineage. It is not a hard thing to do.


No, its not, but you and I both know that its a hard thing to track. Most fly by night breeders don't keep records, accurate ones anyway. And when a glider is purchaced from a pet store its impossable. I know you can try to the best of your ability to recreate the pedigree. But hitting a dead end, that makes your glider a dud, so to speak? (I hate that I'm speaking about them like this! I swear I don't even care about breeding... I'm just curios about the point. I just know that most breeders started like this so it ticks me off.... I would never talk about my sweet babies as things otherwise!)

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352674
08/02/07 02:57 PM
08/02/07 02:57 PM
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With the mentioning of taking them out of the wild to begin with.

First of all, just like the rest of history in the United States, I DIDN'T do it. I wasn't responsible for the suggies coming over here. However, since they ARE already here, I am going to love them, rescue them and do anything and everything in my power to ensure they are WELL taken care of. This means everything that pertains to them physically and or mentally. Even if means remortgaging my home to do it.

They did not choose to be here, I DID NOT choose FOR them to be here either.

Then again, my parents didn't choose me and I didn't choose them or to be here but the hey, we're all here, let's be happy! smile


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352677
08/02/07 02:59 PM
08/02/07 02:59 PM
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MizValorie Offline
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Thanks Megan. Now I understand the thought process.

Mine are also in a nonbreeding home.

All are rescues except Nash.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352679
08/02/07 03:01 PM
08/02/07 03:01 PM
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Posts: 6,894
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princessmegi Offline
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Kathryn, if you don't know your gliders background, there is still that chance that they are related. Just because a color is expressed in a glider doesn't mean that there aren't other colors in it's background. I have a WF Mosaic who has WF, Mosaic, Lion, WF Lion, and Grey in his background. Just because he one color doesn't make him unrelated to those gliders. I guess my question is, if you don't know their background, why chance it? I'm not saying that makes your gliders any less special or duds. I'm just saying why chance the lives and health of any joeys they may have?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352682
08/02/07 03:08 PM
08/02/07 03:08 PM
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SugarBlossoms Offline
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Speaking of "natural habitat", it's not natural either for boys and girls to live in same sex pairs/colonies.

No, I don't have a problem with it as long as the males are neutered. You keep talking about natural habitats though, they don't live without mates in the wild.



Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352683
08/02/07 03:09 PM
08/02/07 03:09 PM

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I belive that they lived far enough apart that they are not related.... facial structure is different, coloring is different (as you say, dosen't mean anything), the breeder of the girls is a small hobby breeder in AZ and the boy came from a pet store deep in TX. I feel very safe in saying that they are not related. BUT if they were it would be SO FAR REMOVED that it would not be an issue.

I don't even want to see an ill response to that last statement. Many breeders do, have, and will line breed to a degree. So don't jump me for that one.

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 03:10 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352685
08/02/07 03:12 PM
08/02/07 03:12 PM
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I understand where you're coming from. I guess I just don't understand the need to let them breed. I've always lived with "Better Safe than Sorry" where my pets are concerned.

Also, would you sell/give away the joeys? If so, what if that person also decides to breed and they get a related glider, but don't know it because of the lack of a provided lineage?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352690
08/02/07 03:20 PM
08/02/07 03:20 PM

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Kathryn
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I don't intend to "breed",as in become a breeder, at all... lol

I will just let them have a family, and I have a few people who seriously wany joeys from them, I have flat out told two of them NO because they would NOT be good owners and two will make amazing owners! One an animal controll officer in an unfriendly state! lol She is amazing and will make the best suggie momma ever! I do hope she gets one someday.

But after that I plan to fix my male. I don't want to breed.

I just know that it all started out with undocumented gliders and that its all related gliders now. I see the trend going towards rare gliders and since they are all becoming so closely related.... well I'm sure you can follow my thought process....

Gliders in circles will become even closer related! Yikes! Document it all you want. But search out new blood. wink lol

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 03:22 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352694
08/02/07 03:23 PM
08/02/07 03:23 PM
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breeders of rare gliders are breeding the lines out. Many are breeding leus and leus hets to unrelated greys (with only grey backgrounds) to widen the gene pool. They are just breeding to greys that have documented histories.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352714
08/02/07 03:49 PM
08/02/07 03:49 PM
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This has been a very good thread, I think many newbies, and people considering to breed should read this thread just for reference and knowledge. Their have been many informative points made here, and some I personally think are absurd. But either way I think the discussion in the thread has been great!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #352726
08/02/07 04:06 PM
08/02/07 04:06 PM
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I just absolutly do not believe you have to have a pedigree to breed. We all know we should not breed related gliders. That is just a given. Whatever other people buy and breed is really none of my businass. If I'm interested in a glider whether it has a pedigree or not I might buy it and I might breed it. I think it's wrong to assume every newbie needs to spend time on the board before venturing out. Smart people are going to do it right and you can't stop the other people who are going to do it anyway. My two cents blush wave

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #352729
08/02/07 04:07 PM
08/02/07 04:07 PM

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Here is my 2 cents. I am truly sorry if it upsets any of you, but I feel very strongly about it and this is a public message board.

To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.

It is very easy to breed and this is apparent with the amount of gliders being sold from mills, pet stores, private breeders, oh and my favorite, the flea market stalls. I don't agree with supporting any of this. There are gliders being put out there on to the market that have no hope of finding a good home because it is so easy for them to be breed in the US. This is the kind of breeding I despise most...breeding for profit. IMHO this should be illegal and stopped.

I have gliders, one was a rescue from a terrible privet breeder and the other 2 were from a local pet store. Now, if I had know what I do now about the species before I bought my first girl a few years ago, I would have never ever bought gliders. I did research, I talked to other owners on line, I read books, I thought I was prepared. I was wrong.

These animals should have never ever been made pets. They are NOT domesticated pets. Having studied domestication in detail through my zoolarchaelogical degree, I have come to realize it is very very unlikely they ever will be domesticated in the true sense. This means they will be plagued with problems that non-domesticated animals suffer from when kept in human conditions (what are those you say? look on the boards in the health and hygiene sections, or better yet the emergency sections). As much as we say we love our babies and wish the world for them, by encouraging breeding and the continued market for them as pets, we are destroying what this species was truly meant to be...wild animals roaming free in Australia.

If we truly love gliders, I feel we should discourage breeding, discourage the market, and encourage knowledge and conservation of wild sugar gliders in their natural habitat. Og course we must take care of the gliders alive and already in the US. How can we do this> Rescue and re-home and not buying from pet stores, mills,or any kind of breeders. There is a crisis in this country with domesticate animals (cats and dogs) and breeding. There are more homeless pets then we can count and many more have homes but suffer from poor conditions. Let us try to curve the breeding of our beloved suggies now before they, like so many others, suffer the same fate on such a massive scale.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352733
08/02/07 04:17 PM
08/02/07 04:17 PM

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Kali_Goddess
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Originally Posted By: LissaJane


To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.


Does that mean people shouldn't have their own human babies? Cause there's plenty kids in foster care that need loving homes too. Doesn't that imply that people who have their own familes instead of adopting are selfish for exactly the same reasons?

Since they are pets, isn't it normal for us to be selfish with them (to a degree)? I'm not saying to breed indescriminately, but to grow your own family colony is wrong? I think mommy daddy and on or two joey would be a perfect size.

Last edited by Kali_Goddess; 08/02/07 04:18 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352737
08/02/07 04:28 PM
08/02/07 04:28 PM

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Kathryn
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Originally Posted By: Kali_Goddess
Originally Posted By: LissaJane


To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.


Does that mean people shouldn't have their own human babies? Cause there's plenty kids in foster care that need loving homes too. Doesn't that imply that people who have their own familes instead of adopting are selfish for exactly the same reasons?

Since they are pets, isn't it normal for us to be selfish with them (to a degree)? I'm not saying to breed indescriminately, but to grow your own family colony is wrong? I think mommy daddy and on or two joey would be a perfect size.


Thats what I'm going for! I want a happy lil colony!

But I guess I could always take the chance in adopting a few others and throw them in the mix and hope for the best??? I think that would be a pretty big risk... I think my lil family would be much happier with their own offspring than strangers coming to live with them. but thats just speculation...

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352738
08/02/07 04:30 PM
08/02/07 04:30 PM
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princessmegi Offline
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Why can't they just be happy with each other? I don't understand why they can't be happy as just 3?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352740
08/02/07 04:31 PM
08/02/07 04:31 PM

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LissaJane
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Well actually, yes, I do think that is selfish too. But that is besides the point and I will probably have children.
But, no it is not the same reasons or the same thing.

To have our own children, we are participating in our species continuation on this earth. There are many other reasons why people choose to and don't choose to have children, but this is within our own species. Our speciual procreation involves so many natural and cultural urges and discouragements it is not even on the same playing as what we our discussing here. Simply because, procreation deals with our own species, not that of another. So no, it isn't even near the same thing.

There are, however, many factors, natural and cultural, that go into the breeding of our pets too. But, it is different. Unlike many domesticated animals, such as horses and cows, sugar gliders do not create a subsistence or work base upon which we can depend on. It is much closer to the domestication of the dog, but even that, when domestication began, was much more involved in the betterment of the species though hunting companions and guards for the family.

I could write a book on the subject and we can go through every domesticated species if you like from the past 30,000 years. My point is, we in our modern era, have no need for the continued domestication of wild species except for our own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Now why this is important, there are so many animals out there in desperate needs of homes that can fulfill this need that I think we should help those animals instead of breeding more just because we enjoy watching them grow. Having children (or not) and following a biological and cultural need that has existed for 1.8 million years is much different than breeding an animal because you enjoy it.


Now I respect everyone's right to choose what they like and what they do. I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter. That is all. I may not agree, but I truly do support you in your own personal freedom and choices to do as you will with your beloved animals. I just wanted to state how I feel about and how I wish things could and should be done. But, by no means do I want to force anyone to follow my beliefs. I really just wanted to state them.

Last edited by LissaJane; 08/02/07 04:36 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352746
08/02/07 04:35 PM
08/02/07 04:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
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Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Kathryn
I think that would be a pretty big risk... I think my lil family would be much happier with their own offspring than strangers coming to live with them. but thats just speculation...


I have had exactly the opposite experience- I had a pair with twin male joeys that came in as a rescue, and even neutered the males fought so badly they had to be seperated. On the other hand, I have completely unrelated, older neutered males that have gone together into a colony without a peep. It just plain depends on the gliders. Even with a breeding, bonded pair, you have to be prepared for the possiblity that someday they are going to stop getting along. Humans get divorced every day, it's not all that unusual to see glider pairs that have been together for years, that suddenly hate each other. Just among my own gliders I've seen it at least twice already.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352749
08/02/07 04:39 PM
08/02/07 04:39 PM
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Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
I have a happy trio Megi but I didn't get it until I did some glider swapping. I think when you have more gliders like in a colony situation they become more interactive with each other.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352750
08/02/07 04:41 PM
08/02/07 04:41 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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I understand that it can be done, but I don't understand her reasoning. Her choices are let them have babies or get other gliders to intro to them. Why not just have 3 gliders in that cage? Why does it have to be an either or?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352753
08/02/07 04:45 PM
08/02/07 04:45 PM
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Long Island, NY
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I had 5 females together for 4 years and were very happy together. One day two of them turned on the other three. Difference between what we have and out in the wild, they can get away from each other. There is never any guarantee that like humans once they are paired that they will be together forever.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352755
08/02/07 04:45 PM
08/02/07 04:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kathryn

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different.


I am still reading to catch up. (wow! Go to a doctor's appointment and you miss alot around here!) But I wanted to comment on this quote, Kathryn.

I was recently looking into purchasing 2 gliders. One is in Illinois, one is in Virginia. By studying their pedigrees, I found out the male's Grandfather was the Female's Father - obviously too closely related to breed.

Just because gliders are from different states and look different doesn't mean they aren't related!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352760
08/02/07 04:50 PM
08/02/07 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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I guess I have a hard time understanding your point. I can't see her doing anything different than I did. I did bring some rescues in here and there but there was a time I wished I had just homegrown my own and kept them. I fail to understand what is wrong with that. There is no sweeter baby than one you have raised yourself. It's a perfect thing for one to do if they aren't up for rescue.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352764
08/02/07 04:52 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
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I'm not saying there's something wrong with it. My point is she seems to think she has to add more than 3 gliders (to that particular cage/group) and I don't understand why. My point is that the gliders can be perfectly happy as just 3, so that is not a reason that she "has" to breed. It is a reason why she "wants" to breed.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352770
08/02/07 04:56 PM
08/02/07 04:56 PM

K
Kathryn
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Kathryn
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K



?????

I don't know... I have a trio, they are very happy... The breeding just happened. everyone was VERY ok with it, there was no forced behaviors. I can't reverse it. It took place the second night! Yikes! Its a done deal!

Would I have let them have breed... I may have. I had been going back and forth between the idea of fixing him. The choice was made for me rather QUICKLY! lol

Given the outcome here, I'm really ok with it.

If I were in the situation to provide a home for a rescue would I? IN A HEARTBEAT! Especially because of where I live! I'm sure gliders here perish dure to a lack of avalible care and information. The fear of getting "caught" = neglect. I would step up in a second! Am I prepared if my babies turn on eachother? YES! I have a second cage that is the SAME model as the one they are in now, its BIG! They would not be downsizing their living condition at all if I had to seperate them. I am prepared! If I filled that cage, I would order another! I will always hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.

I don't NEED to breed my girls. They chose to breed themselves. I didn't hold them down. They met my male, groomed the heck out of him and invited them into their tight bond. Then they tempted him with soft hissing and more grooming! lol It was all very natural.

I may chase down their pedigrees someday just for fun... but I really don't need them.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352772
08/02/07 04:58 PM
08/02/07 04:58 PM
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Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: Kathryn

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different.


I am still reading to catch up. (wow! Go to a doctor's appointment and you miss alot around here!) But I wanted to comment on this quote, Kathryn.

I was recently looking into purchasing 2 gliders. One is in Illinois, one is in Virginia. By studying their pedigrees, I found out the male's Grandfather was the Female's Father - obviously too closely related to breed.

Just because gliders are from different states and look different doesn't mean they aren't related!


I'm posting this again, because this thread is moving so fast, and I think it is important.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352774
08/02/07 05:01 PM
08/02/07 05:01 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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lol...you're right. It's moving VERY fast. I went to the bathroom and came back to 2 new posts.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352777
08/02/07 05:03 PM
08/02/07 05:03 PM
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Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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That is fine if thats what she wants to do. You would have a hard time coming in to my home and telling me I shoudn't breed two animals I just bought and paid for. Like I said I did the same thing years ago. I don't feel I've made any mistakes. I've given people the opportunity to own some real sweet babies. I've watched the joy as they held their new babies. Yes that is selfish on my part but I enjoyed every bit of it. I also cried like a baby going home and leaving the baby behind. This person wants to have babies and keep them. I so wish I had done that. Sorry to all who have my babies and love them. I know they are in very capable and loving hands. heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352782
08/02/07 05:06 PM
08/02/07 05:06 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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I'm not saying it's wrong to have joeys. I'm saying it's wrong to chance a joeys health by not knowing the background. I'm glad that your gliders are all healthy, but what if it had turned out that they were closely related and your joeys had health problems? That is a very possible outcome to situations like these.

Also, I don't buy my animals to be breeders, but to be loved. They don't need to have joeys to be "worth" the money I paid for them. They just need to be who they are.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352783
08/02/07 05:07 PM
08/02/07 05:07 PM

K
Kathryn
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Kathryn
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K



Oh... and the idea of having more than 3 comes from my plans to build a rather large enclosure. Hubby is a General Contractor and is pretty handy. He's been building custom homes for over 20 years now and has done some amazing work! he is going to build me a split enclosure complete with sitting benches and double door entries... the works. I'm pretty excited! It will be zoo quality, but indoors. And it will have full spectrum lighting recessed in the ceiling for the plants, so they can thrive indoors.

I think that such a setup would be overkill for 3 gliders??? In theory it should be large enough for "personalities" to work themselves out. But I'll still have to maintain cages outside the enclosure I'm sure.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352787
08/02/07 05:10 PM
08/02/07 05:10 PM
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Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
Can my babies come play with your's roflmao roflmao roflmao

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352788
08/02/07 05:11 PM
08/02/07 05:11 PM

K
Kathryn
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Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: princessmegi

Also, I don't buy my animals to be breeders, but to be loved. They don't need to have joeys to be "worth" the money I paid for them. They just need to be who they are.


I didn't buy mine to breed.... I think that is something all together different.

They are worth a thousand times what I paid for them... Stand alone as they are.


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352789
08/02/07 05:12 PM
08/02/07 05:12 PM
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Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kathryn
Oh... and the idea of having more than 3 comes from my plans to build a rather large enclosure. Hubby is a General Contractor and is pretty handy. He's been building custom homes for over 20 years now and has done some amazing work! he is going to build me a split enclosure complete with sitting benches and double door entries... the works. I'm pretty excited! It will be zoo quality, but indoors. And it will have full spectrum lighting recessed in the ceiling for the plants, so they can thrive indoors.

I think that such a setup would be overkill for 3 gliders??? In theory it should be large enough for "personalities" to work themselves out. But I'll still have to maintain cages outside the enclosure I'm sure.


So when you come back to texas...your gonna bring him right? I NEEEEEEDDDDDD one of those!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352794
08/02/07 05:15 PM
08/02/07 05:15 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
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LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



so heres kind of a random question.. I've been out of this topic for some time and it definitely as evolved..


So you dont neuter, and your mom and dad glider have babies.. Two boys! Then those boys decided NATURALLY to breed with their mom..

wait, thats NOT natural.. the natural thing that happens in the wild is that the new babies either leave the colony and find another colony OR pair up with an unrelated glider in the colony.. there is NOTHING natural about breeding in captivity because they spectrum of genetics isn't as big.. in the wild, gliders leave one colony and join another not because they hated their family, but because its something that is SUPPOSED to happed to PREVENT inbreeding.. if the gliders had a choice in the wild, they would NOT have chosen to mate with a close relative..

And i agree with the person who was talking about preserving the species in the wild, and the real LACK of needing more breeders..

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352795
08/02/07 05:15 PM
08/02/07 05:15 PM
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Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
Hey now I was first tounge grin

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352798
08/02/07 05:17 PM
08/02/07 05:17 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



My husband! lol

Everyone needs one of him! He is awesome!!! You should have seen the outdoor enclosure he built for my friends Bengals! It was half a football field! Had the catch double door, hard wood frame heavy wire, and the shelves! The hard wood knarly tree stumps and thick branch climbing structures! It was nicer than any zoo enclosure I had ever seen!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352801
08/02/07 05:19 PM
08/02/07 05:19 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
so heres kind of a random question.. I've been out of this topic for some time and it definitely as evolved..


So you dont neuter, and your mom and dad glider have babies.. Two boys! Then those boys decided NATURALLY to breed with their mom..

wait, thats NOT natural.. the natural thing that happens in the wild is that the new babies either leave the colony and find another colony OR pair up with an unrelated glider in the colony.. there is NOTHING natural about breeding in captivity because they spectrum of genetics isn't as big.. in the wild, gliders leave one colony and join another not because they hated their family, but because its something that is SUPPOSED to happed to PREVENT inbreeding.. if the gliders had a choice in the wild, they would NOT have chosen to mate with a close relative..

And i agree with the person who was talking about preserving the species in the wild, and the real LACK of needing more breeders..


True, true!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352802
08/02/07 05:19 PM
08/02/07 05:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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MizValorie  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sherman, Texas
nuh uh I helped her with wormies!! I get him first!! LOL


off topic..did you get em kathryn?


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352804
08/02/07 05:22 PM
08/02/07 05:22 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Yep... LIVE Hotter than heck! But LIVE!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352806
08/02/07 05:24 PM
08/02/07 05:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Carrie T  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
No fair, just No fair cry I'll bet I'm a better Mash fan than you though wink

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352807
08/02/07 05:24 PM
08/02/07 05:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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MizValorie  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sherman, Texas
good good dont forget to feed em for a few days!! they will get nice and plump


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352808
08/02/07 05:25 PM
08/02/07 05:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sherman, Texas
lol probably Carrie!!!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352810
08/02/07 05:28 PM
08/02/07 05:28 PM

K
Kali_Goddess
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Kali_Goddess
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Originally Posted By: LissaJane

Now I respect everyone's right to choose what they like and what they do. I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter. That is all. I may not agree, but I truly do support you in your own personal freedom and choices to do as you will with your beloved animals. I just wanted to state how I feel about and how I wish things could and should be done. But, by no means do I want to force anyone to follow my beliefs. I really just wanted to state them.


Of course! Same here. I just find it interesting how many people may have actually put more research and thought into breeding their gliders than they may have into having their own families. Not picking on anyone in particular, mind you - just a thought that occurred to me. I'm in my early 30's and many of my girlfriends are starting (or already have) families. When I ask them why, they don't often have an answer. According to them "it's just what you do". If I gave that reason for breeding my glider I'd be hunted down and flogged. tounge

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352812
08/02/07 05:31 PM
08/02/07 05:31 PM

H
HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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H



Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms

But then what you are saying is no gliders in captivity would ever have joeys.


Again, this is putting words into my mouth. That is absolutely NOT what I am saying. What I am saying is if you don't plan to breed, don't mix males and females. That's ALL I'm saying. And to the people saying it's close to impossible for two adult males of different lineage to cohabitate peacefully, positively not true. I know *many* cases where adult males have successfully been introduced to one another.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352817
08/02/07 05:40 PM
08/02/07 05:40 PM

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HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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Do you breed? If you do, then why can't she?

(This is meant as a rhetorical question to EVERYONE who breeds, not to anyone in particular)

Last edited by HelloSugar; 08/02/07 05:47 PM. Reason: Additional info
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352819
08/02/07 05:41 PM
08/02/07 05:41 PM
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Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Carrie T  Offline
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Doniphan Mo
Quote:
And to the people saying it's close to impossible for two adult males of different lineage to cohabitate peacefully, positively not true. I know *many* cases where adult males have successfully been introduced to one another.


Liniage has absolutly nothing to do with it. I do believe some males can coexist without being neutered but those guys are far and few between in my experience. I also want to know what part of natural forcing females to cohabitate with females and males to cohabitate with males is. Boarding school comes to mind.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352821
08/02/07 05:44 PM
08/02/07 05:44 PM
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Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Carrie T  Offline
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Doniphan Mo
LOL Princess does not breed LOL

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352826
08/02/07 05:48 PM
08/02/07 05:48 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Carrie T
LOL Princess does not breed LOL



Hey, what'd I miss??? Knew I should have never left work to drive home...darn it.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352828
08/02/07 05:49 PM
08/02/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Nevermind...it's there now...



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352829
08/02/07 05:50 PM
08/02/07 05:50 PM
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
No, I don't breed. Nor will I ever. But if I did breed, it would be 2 healthy gliders who came to me as joeys that I had extensive background on.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352832
08/02/07 05:52 PM
08/02/07 05:52 PM

H
HelloSugar
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HelloSugar
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Originally Posted By: Carrie T
I also want to know what part of natural forcing females to cohabitate with females and males to cohabitate with males is.


Perhaps it isn't natural, but certainly a better form of population control than cutting into a living creature's flesh and removing a natural part of it's body. What right do we have to do that? In my opinion, there is no acceptable answer to that.

Like I said, I won't mutilate my pets. And though I prefer not to nueter, I will also never be a mill breeder or even a large scale breeder.

Last edited by HelloSugar; 08/02/07 06:05 PM. Reason: Add more thoughts
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352837
08/02/07 05:57 PM
08/02/07 05:57 PM
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Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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You know, I have to say, HelloSugar, I'm fascinated by your "anti-neutering" stance.

I've met or encountered MANY people who don't neuter. In my experience, they have made that choice due to either anthropomorphizing their animals, or due to ignorance.

Your stance seems to be neither. Although I disagree, I really respect your views against neutering.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352844
08/02/07 06:04 PM
08/02/07 06:04 PM

A
aproductof
Unregistered
aproductof
Unregistered
A



Actually, in the latest procedures for neutering, NOTHING is removed. They are just tied off, and everything is put back. Human men have a similar procedure done with no ill effects. I think hormonal means would be out of the question. I recently heard of a means of sterilizing feral cats, but I've not heard of sterilization in gliders. And you obviously can't use any random human forms of contraception!

In any case, if you want to go back to nature, then owning gliders period isn't natural. Simulating an ideal environment for raising joeys year round isn't natural. Saving a rejected joey, unnatural. So by keeping them in captivity, they breed more than they would naturally. What should be done with all the joeys if no one neutered? Or puppies? Or kittens? We choose to have these animals, we should at least be responsible. All those "extra" animals just end up homeless, in shelters, starved, put down, etc. Is that any better of a situation for them? In nature, they have a means of population control--predation, food supply, etc. I think I'll chance tying the boys off.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #352851
08/02/07 06:11 PM
08/02/07 06:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
As far as me and breeding goes...

I have 3 females and 1 male.

Cerulean I got at 10 wks from a friend and former hobby breeder (AmyMichelle). I am unsure of her lineage past her parents, but could find out if I felt the need to. She is a petite glider and I will not breed her because of that.

SweetPea is a rehome who I do not know the lineage or oop date of. She will not be bred for that reason and because she is rehome. She was bred in her former home.

Tiki is a retired breeder. I bought her with the promise that she would never be bred. She is my leu and has had several joeys in her former home. I could easily obtain her lineage from Judie.

Cobalt is my neutered male. He was sold to me as sterile, but some of the sterile males are proving out so I had him neutered to prevent Tiki having joeys. His lineage can be seen here. http://www.thepetglider.com/index/content/view/21/49/

If it wasn't for neutering, Tiki and Cobalt could not be in the same cage. I tried for 2 months to intro Tiki to the girls, but it didn't work. I brought Cobalt home and they curled up together the 1st time they were introed. I am thankful for neutering or my Tiki would still be alone and overgrooming.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352856
08/02/07 06:20 PM
08/02/07 06:20 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H





Thank you for respecting my view though you disagree. Though I could go on and on regarding the origins of my stance on nuetering, it all boils down to the fact that for me, population control in my home is simple. Don't mix genders if I don't want babies. I feel that it's much more simple, safe, gentle, and natural then removing/cutting/snipping/however the nuetering process is done.

I also respect the opinions and perogative of others who do nueter. I'm not trying to force my views on anyone else. If anything, I am the type to generally not worry about what everyone else does, so long as it doesn't adversely affect me. C'est la vie!


Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352872
08/02/07 06:35 PM
08/02/07 06:35 PM

A
aproductof
Unregistered
aproductof
Unregistered
A



Then what do you do with all the male gliders? Female pairings are fine most of the time, but male pairings are not as likely.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352884
08/02/07 06:43 PM
08/02/07 06:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Opening a new post as this one is long. You can find it here


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
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