So sorry I haven't been here. This is really hard now. She seemed pretty good Friday, vet called Saturday morning to set up recheck. She wasn't good at all. I took her. Told him I was syringe feeding her water and mix. She slept with me all night and almost all day, otherwise she was on her heating pad. He checked her abdomen and said it wasn't good. Large mass under the rib cage. Said he didn't feel that Monday...but I think it's been there for a while. Probably since the beginning of all this 2-3 months ago. He said the outcome wasn't good, probably best to euthanize (?). I cried. Then I told her I loved her and said goodbye, but I couldn't hand her to him. It might have been the best thing, but I have never had that in me. That's why I couldn't be a vet like I wanted...I couldn't do that part. Just don't have it...He said he would give her some fluids and vitamin B shot with pain meds and something else, and I asked for an X-ray. He said sure. He never told me no on anything, but assured me it would not be a good outcome. He was very nice about it. Hugged me when I was crying, but that didn't make her well. They did the X-ray just by holding her, which was pretty simple cause she just laid there panting. I saw the "mass" and it was putting pressure under her lungs. She only had about 1/4 the lung capacity she should have had or less and her heart was enlarged maybe twice what it should have been. I still didn't want to give up, so he gave her the meds and said to continue the antibiotics maybe we could keep her hydrated and get over infection enough to maybe try to remove it. This is really hard. He only gave her a week to 10 days. Drove two hours home. I stepped in our back door and she started squirming around in her pouch, like she always did when she knew we were back home. She came out and looked at me. She had a weird look in her eyes, kinda like she was looking past me. She opened her mouth really really wide to take a breath, but she couldn't get it. Then she reached out with her little hand towards me, grabbing at me...Oh!!!! I was hysterical. I couldn't help her!!!! And she reached out to me about 3 times like that and I couldn't help her get air. The mass had already taken the rest of her lung capacity just on the way home I guess. She closed her little eyes and it was over. I just wonder if the "mass" was some kind of fluid instead of tumor like he suspected for it to "grow" so fast. Maybe she absorbed it on the way home and it collected there. I don't know if its possible. He said it wasn't fluid and he claims he didn't "palpate" it on Monday...but I'm not so sure that it wasn't already there. I was always rubbing her belly, and I'm pretty sure it was there only smaller than yesterday, but then again, I'm not a vet so I don't know what I'm supposed to feel and what I'm not. It was small when I felt it about 2 or 3 weeks ago, I thought it was her stomach. Yesterday it felt like it went all the way from one side of her to the other. Anyway...he said this kind of "mass" is usually quick and hard to catch, then told me a sad story about a ferret. Like I needed ANOTHER sad story! So she's resting next to her dad in my flower garden, and I just hope she can breathe now, where ever she is. Thanks to everyone for all your advice, especially Jen for trying so hard. I really appreciate you all. Just wish I had better news. I still have mom, but it's not the same, she never really liked me as much as my baby. She was born here, so she grew up with me. I just wish I could get that image out of my head, her reaching out to me....I need to go clean up her "sick cage" and wash pouches and cages, etc. but I can't quit bawling long enough. Maybe in a day or two...Thanks again everyone.

I am sitting here crying for you. I am so so sorry! Please try and step back and feel in your heart all the love and happiness you gave to her. Knowing now, that her weary body is now at peace, and her love is the air that you breathe. I wish I could give you a people hug!
Love, Light and Blessing......Rest in Peace sweet little one

Thank you. I wish you could too. I REALLY need a hug, but I don't have anyone here that cares as much as I did, so they don't understand why I can't stop crying. Everyone just keeps saying it's better now, she's resting...but it's not better for me because my heart hurts so much. I said in the beginning that she probably hated me since I had to give her medicine all the time and someone (I'm sorry I can't remember who it was) said they thought it helped with the bonding sometimes...I really believe it did, because when she did seem like she felt better (maybe just for one day) she played with my hair & curled up by my neck. I thought it would be a LITTLE better today, but it's just worse. I'm having a really hard time with this one...Crazy thing is that she was still eating really, really good the day I took her to the PetSmart vet (Monday). Wednesday night is when she stopped eating altogether. I had stopped the Ace because Jen said it probably would sedate her too much so I thought that was why she wasn't eating...I guess it was too late then. I don't know. I keep blaming myself, if I had taken her to this one in the beginning he could have found it sooner and probably got it out, then should wouldn't have had to suffer and take all the meds that wouldn't work on this anyway...I don't know how to get through this one...I miss her sooooo much! I want to say thank you to everyone again, all of you have GREAT BIG WONDERFUL LOVING AND CARING HEARTS.

I'm so very very sad to read of your loss.

I hope that your grief can transform to joy as you remember her, and that the process of that transformation goes quickly.

My cat did that - reaching for me while gasping for breath - when she died. It is an image I'll never get out of my head. However, that image has faded so that I can remember our happy times together more frequently. I can think of her and smile now.

It just takes time. Please don't blame yourself. Hindsight does NO good - and is only useful for beating yourself up. Hold this thought: You made the ABSOLUTE BEST decisions you could make with the information you had available at the time. End of Story.

Big Hugs!

Thank you, also. I hope it fades quickly. That's the only thing that's keeping me bawling so much because I do know that she's resting peacefully now. I keep trying to tell myself that over and over today, probably tomorrow and every day from now, etc., but it doesn't seem to be helping, not today anyway...it will eventually. I did try to do what I could, and it didn't seem like it was as bad as a "large mass" because after the UTI she bounced back so good for about 2 or 3 weeks, then the eye infection again, still being obsessed with the hair on the top of her head, but she had energy, was eating, was playing, running in her wheel. The labored breathing only started just last weekend when she was running in her wheel. Poor little thing couldn't hardly catch her breath then, but she kept running no matter what until I took it away from her. At that time I thought it was still respiratory and it probably wasn't good for her to stress her lungs so much. I would have never thought of anything this bad. Each time she went to whichever vet she went, she was always too bad to put under for X-ray, but too alert to hold down. Should have asked for that in the very beginning, even if I had to hold her myself! You would think one of them would have done that in the beginning, just to make sure it was respiratory, but you're right, doesn't do any good to look back on that now. Just makes me cry more. I've got to stop it. Don't want to go back to work tomorrow, everyone will ask me how "the baby" is...you know what's going to happen then...Can't type at work when I can't see what I'm doing and don't want to anyway, but I have to now, gotta pay vet bills for my baby I don't even have anymore, but he tried to tell me before the X-ray that the outcome wouldn't be good...I didn't listen. I always have it in my head that maybe, just maybe it isn't as bad as THEY think it is! What was I thinking? Miracle maybe? Thanks again, from the bottom of my broken heart.

Aw, Boogie, I'm sorry.

My concern with her being sedated so much was if her heart rate and circulation were too slow she couldn't cycle the bad stuff out of her system, or process the meds or food properly. Please don't blame yourself-and having seen 8 to the Bridge myself, I know how much it hurts and how big a piece of you they can take with them. She was very, very ill, and some of the vets didn't make it any easier.

It's not too late to bond with Mom, either (and treats go a long way to winning a little glider's heart). She'll need extra attention without her daughter there, too, even if it sometimes seems like she doesn't-gliders do grieve. Please keep us updated on her!

I wish I could have done more.

I sure appreciate all of you. As far as doing more, Jen, I think you did great with not being able to actually see her. I'm pretty sure if she had more time, and you had seen her IN PERSON, I'm almost positive you could have found it. I've only had 3, and never had to handle a sick one. It made it even harder to watch her go. She was to the point where she didn't want to be left alone at all. She would always be out of her pouch no matter what time and wait for me to take her out. Then she would go to sleep. She didn't even want to stay on the heating pad. Had to be me. Guess that's the only part of her being sick that I DIDN'T HATE...I'm glad you were all here for me, especially Jen, you gave me a lot of good advice. Thank you all again. I think I still have some pictures of her on my computer, I think I'll go see if I can find them. I'll give updates on momma. She seems to be doing fine. She was almost always by herself anyway, and got kinda grouchy sometimes when daddy was here, after he died she still had baby in the cage right next to her so we'll see how well she does now...I'll keep an eye on her and let everyone know how she's doing. I was wondering if anyone else has had a glider with this problem or if it's common or not?

It depends on what was actually going on in there. I've had one that had free fluid around the liver when that and his gall bladder were failing...seen on ultrasound. Fluid can develop around heart and lungs as well, either in response to organ failure or massive infection. Without actually doing a necropsy (postmortem) it can be difficult to say, and even then sometimes you're left with more questions than answers. And it won't bring the little one back. I don't think your Mama is at risk from whatever it was, which would be a reason to have a necropsy done, if that helps. She may get lonely without at least a 'neighbor' to talk to, tho, so do watch for signs of depression.

And we'd love to see pictures.

The vet mentioned most likely the liver, but kept saying he was almost positive it was not fluid, just amazes me how she seemed so much better after baytril got rid of UTI and she had shot of fluids she was eating really good that same night. Had more energy, then within a couple of weeks she was going downhill again. He said a common problem with gliders when you try to rehydrate them that the fluid will collect in the ?whatever the name for the "wings" are??? can't remember. He said eventually it would be absorbed, but makes it hard for them to glide for a while. He said since she wasn't gliding anyway, he could do it. I'm still trying to convince myself it was fluid and not cancer. Just don't want to face that. I thought about necropsy, but after all she went through, couldn't stand the thought of that either.I read something in the beginning of her illness about something causing damage to the liver, but can't remember what it was..probably a lot of things, just wonder if it started there. Whatever it was, I'm pretty convinced that it started lower around the intestinal area, etc., which probably caused the UTI and soft stool in the beginning, was putting pressure somewhere there. Probably why she started on her tail. And the larger it got the more room it took up. Had nowhere else to go I guess. Yes, I started wondering if it was something that she could get, but when I cleaned the cage I used soap and water and a little bleach, then took it outside and sprayed it down good to rinse it off. I let it air dry, but still wiped it down with a clean dry towel. guess I'm getting paranoid now, but I sure don't want her to got through that same thing. Every time she comes out to see me, I'm amazed at how much better she looked than her baby, I'd been looking at baby so much lately I forgot just how healthy they normally look. She's really really fast!!! Forgot about that too! Anyway, it's been a little easier today, if everyone at work hadn't asked me how she was doing...I knew it would happen, they had seen her so much and even they were getting kind of attached to her. She did that, she was a very friendly girl when she was healthy. And they wouldn't ask me about her all at the same time for everyone to hear it at once, they all had to come back 5 different times alone to ask...had to go through it so many times today, it's getting somewhat easier to tell it. Only cried 4 out of 5 times today!! ;-) I should go to bed, I'm so tired lately from sleeping with her and doctoring and worrying, maybe I can get a little rest now. Doubt it, now I'll probably just worry about mom, but I'm going to try. Will keep you updated. Thanks, Jen and everyone else! You guys are great! I still haven't found the pics, but I'm sure they're here somewhere. I never delete anything! LOL

After I get some sleep, I'll go thru my pics and find the shots of Chronos' ultrasound (and his threads)-and you can see if it looks at all like what you saw on the Xrays. Sometimes seeing helps-even if it's to describe what is different about the films. It 'sounds' like she ended up with pneumonia (which can be very, very hard to treat once established), and possibly if liver or heart involvement, fluid can collect also. Chronos also had his gall bladder swell to the size of a 10 pound cat's-it was huge, and on his last day, you could not only feel it, when he was shaved you could see it. Fluid (on ultrasound) was a black void on the film-solid masses show white-but so can infection (as with my Riker). I've also had a father/son succumb to a congenital defect, where the intestinal wall started leaking at about a year old, and they collected fecal matter in the abdominal cavity-until they started bloating (not IN the intestine, but outside of it) you wouldn't have known anything at all was wrong, and they were gone in less than 30 hours. BabyBoy (the daddy) was 1 year, 25 days old...his son, Peek, was 1 year, 26 days-and physically he looked just like his dad with the same mellow disposition. The twins that took after mom, Hush and Teal'c, passed their third birthday in June. Cause of death on those two was confirmed by necropsy. Nothing could have stopped it, slowed it, saved them once it started, and no way to predict or prevent it, either.

Amd I hate to say it, but by the time they're to the point Chronos and yours were, surgery is as likely to kill as help-maybe even moreso. Been there on that one. I wouldn't change my decision where he was concerned...but I may hesitate before repeating it next time.

He was convinced it wasn't fluid, but I don't know. Don't know what it would look like if it was, but her X-ray showed an almost clear but mostly pale white colored oval. Looked like an egg almost. Not real white, mostly kind of transparent. Had a definite outline to it though, right below the lungs and above the intestines. He drew around where I was supposed to be able to see the lungs and there was just a tiny little line along where her spine would be down to less than 1/4 inch then up towards her neck. That was all the room she had left. I knew she wouldn't make it to have any surgery, but he was doing what I asked him to do. He knew by then I couldn't give her to him, so he said we'll just keep doing the meds and go from there. I probably should have made the other decision, but...
I haven't found her pictures yet, still looking. Hope I still have them.

Whenever you do, we'll love to see. First, I'm going to post the thread of Chronos' surgery. I took them in the OR, and warn you they're graphic. It's something to keep in mind if you're tempted to beat yourself up for not going this route, either now or future, plus abominal surgery on a glider, under IDEAL conditions with them strong enough, and you'll still end up with no better than a 50/50 chance if they have to go very deep, let alone on one weak and sick:

Chronos' Surgery:

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/240796#Post240796


Chronos' Illness:

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/226341/fpart/1

His surgery thread includes pictures of the ultrasound.

And here's one of Riker who had an infection in his head-unlike a solid cyst or abscess, it was diffused through the tissue, but you can still see the unusual whiteness in the picture-that's because the Xrays were refracting off the infection and scattering.
The first Xray is with the infection at it's worst. The second after almost a month on medication:

In Riker's normal X-ray, see the oval on the left top side of the abdominal area (I know it's not a cyst or tumor and I'm sure that's an organ of some kind I just don't know what part, but just for comparison), Baby's oval was almost that color maybe less white, more transparent, no dark spots in it at all and she was on her side and it was almost twice that size right under her ribs and down. The width of Riker's spine is about the width that she had left to breath plus a little bit wider up towards her throat, but that's all she had left. The oval was pushing up too much on her lungs.
Yeah, after seeing those pics, and the sad, very sad outcome, I don't know if I would have tried, but I pretty much knew she wouldn't make it long enough for that, but I've never been one to give up. I probably should have just let her go, it might have been easier on both of us. Mostly her. I think the one thing that makes me feel so bad about it, is that I didn't want her to be in pain, but I'm almost positive she was, and I think that's why I'm so mad at myself. I never wanted her to hurt, just wanted her to get well. Maybe that's why he put the pain meds in with the fluid shot, he knew she wouldn't make it as long as he told me she would. He said maybe 7 to 10 days. I think he knew better. I hope the shot worked so it didn't hurt so bad. That's what I think I'm really beating myself up about. I think...not sure that's the only thing.
I'm so sorry about your Chronos. I guess sometimes it doesn't make any difference how hard you try, if their little bodies can't go on, they just can't go on. Maybe one of these days I'll get that through my head. Just can't stop thinking about her pain.
I found a few of the pictures I had, but they didn't seem to be very clear. Can't find the good ones yet. Then I'll have to remember how to put them on here...not very good at that. My son had to do the other pics of her head and tail...maybe I can snag him again. Again, my sympathy to you for Chronos' sad ending. You're a lot tougher than I am, sharing all those pics with all of us. Thanks again for everything.

I just typed this REALLY long reply, but I guess it didn't go. My computer is a piece...lately it doesn't want to load the pages here or the pics or anything...don't know what's wrong with it. Anyway, I can't remember what I typed, but I'll try to do it again.
In Riker's normal x-ray, see the white oval-shaped spot on his upper left side of the abdominal area, (I know it's not a cyst or tumor, I'm sure it's an organ of some kind, just don't know what, but just for comparison) Baby's oval was almost that white color, more transparent with no dark spots. She was on her side and it was right under her ribs and down. The width of Riker's spine is about the width of lung capacity she had left plus a little wider up towards the throat, but that's all. After seeing the pics, I'm not sure I would have gone through with that, but I was pretty sure she wouldn't make it that long anyway. But I've never been one to just give up. Probably should have.
I think what I'm really beating myself up about is that I never wanted her to feel any pain at all, and I'm pretty sure she probably did. Guess that's why he gave her the pain meds in the fluid shot. He probably knew she wouldn't make it 7-10 days like he said, but he figured out I couldn't give her to him. I hope the pain meds were working enough that she didn't feel too much pain. I'm pretty sure that's why I'm so mad at myself...I don't know if that's the only thing, but I think that's the main thing.
I'm so sorry about your Chronos. I guess it doesn't matter how hard we try, if their little bodies can't go on, then they can't go on. You're a lot tougher than I am, taking and sharing the pics.
In the very last pic, your little guy had a gray pouch that looked just like my little girl's pouch, same one she came home from the vet in last Saturday. My mom made it for her. She had several houses and pouches to pick from, but she always went back to that one.
Again, my sympathy to you for your loss of Chronos.
Thanks again. (I hope this message goes this time!!)

There very likely was fluid in there, and possibly with infection. I've talked to some people about Ace Promezine and gliders, and the consensus was it would aggravate pneumonia. I'm sure the painkiller worked - you'd know if it didn't-they do what's called agonal breathing, and it's horrible to watch. They open their mouth very very wide (gasping for air), and flail and spasm-sometimes will crab when it hurts...I've been thru it with 2-once I was at the vets and able to sign the euthanasia order at that time...with Chronos it was too fast, and he'd had a shot of pain meds plus what I put down him when I saw the end coming and it still didn't help. It's an image that will live with me forever.

I'm the same way-I will fight to the end as long as there's hope, and the suffering isn't intolerable, and there's hope of getting through it. Had I known how Chronos was going to go after, I very well may never have let him come out of surgery. It was his last chance, and worse when they got in there than it looked on film, and though the hope was small, it was there, and he'd done SO well prior. He wasn't in bad pain until 15 minutes before he passed-and the vet was an hour away...there was nothing more I could do but hold him. And even though we don't like pain-it's a useful tool that tells us there's something wrong. Without it, we'd keep walking on broken bones...or not seek medical attention when we should. It's not the enemy, as much as it can seem like it. I don't think your little girl was in much pain, if any-she crossed the Bridge with you, and knew she was loved. Gliders also have instinctive reactions when they die-like trying to climb. That isn't pain-it's the brain shutting down to the most basic levels. Height is safety in the world of a glider. It's painful to US to watch, but not an indication of distress, if that helps. I decided with my first glider, my SM, Riker, that I would share all I learned with others so maybe a glider could be helped by it. Is that painful sometimes? Very. But I seem to have the ability to get through it, and it would be selfish of me not to use the resource, painful or not, so I share. Surgery is a VERY last resort, because a vet has very little time-glider's don't have a lot of blood, but they bleed just as profusely as any other animal, so they have much less time to do the same thing when you go that route.

I think there were a number of things that your vets could have done differently, including responding a bit quicker to a changing situation-but that's in the past, and we learn as we go. I'm very angry at the one who put the rescue cat first-yours had a chance, and with gliders, waiting is not something they can handle well-by the time they show symptoms, you are out of time, unlike with larger animals. I'd let the Petco one (or whatever) one know too that Ace is not acceptible for an animal as small as a glider, either. It's much too powerful, and reduces the vascular ability so they can't heal. It just wasn't designed for something the size of a glider. If you ever need one again, now you know what to ask for, and what to say 'no' to.

And your post went thru-it's the nature of this forum it will take time. So when you post pictures-do that in Glider Talk-that way we can all reply. I'm looking forward to your pictures.

There's nothing wrong with not giving up when there's still a chance-that's a personal choice we all have to face-how far we will, or won't, go. From your description, I don't think she was suffering in pain when she crossed, and she will wait for you at the Rainbow Bridge.

If you like, you can open a thread to discuss internal medicine in Health that can be posted to easier, and those of us who've dealt with this sort of thing can discuss this in more detail easier.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't think it was a growth per se, fluid internally can encapsulate itself, especially if it's been there awhile in the body's attempts to heal it.

Well, that makes sense, climbing...never really thought about that. She didn't crab any at all. She wiggled a little in her pouch, poked her head out, then reached out with her hand but there was nothing there so I reached for her and she grabbed my finger. Then she paused maybe 1/2 second, then opened her mouth really really wide and reached out with her other hand and grabbed another finger. She climbed a little bit further out of her pouch, opened her mouth maybe one more time and that was all. By the time she came out of the pouch, her eyes looked kind of "far away." Know what I mean? Like she was just looking through me. I just figured she couldn't get enough air to crab anyway. I'm sure it was a horrible and very scary feeling and probably did hurt some, but I'm still trying to convince myself that she didn't feel a LOT of pain. I really hope that was the case. I hate thinking that she was relying on me to help her breathe and I couldn't, since I can't get that picture out of my head. It's fading a little, but very little. Momma is coming around again, slowly, but still has this thing about licking my hands constantly. Always washing my hands to make sure she doesn't "eat" any lotion, ink from work or anything weird. Doesn't matter if I just wash them or maybe wait 30 minutes or so, she still licks all over...Don't know what that's about, but I like to think she's just kissin' on me! LOL!